Larry Hannan Update on FEC Passenger Rail to Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

The president was on a honeymoon for those first two years, and he could have easily pushed an Amtrak expansion agenda, it's not the senates fault that he didn't. He had the house, senate and presidency and was able to launch a multibillion dollar high speed rail initiative almost immediately. There was NOTHING that could have stopped him and even if there was, he didn't push the issue of Amtrak. Not saying that he was bad, simply misguided on his rail policy.

Trying to lay a high speed rail network over the country was a noble attempt at something, but the concept is so flawed in a country that hasn't had but 15 passenger train routes outside of the NEC since 1971. Launching a national passenger rail system expansion under Amtrak, or even creating a system of support for other operators to reenter the market and then incrementally moving toward HSR would have been much less troublesome, less of a Republican target, and enjoyed much broader support.

Amtrak is not blameless in this either, as they literally sat on their hands and did nothing during this entire 4 year term. The railroad press was going animal crackers over the silence, it was painful to watch. Again the president or more specifically the vice president could have given them a swift kick and demanded something on his desk within 'X' amount of time but both sides slept through the whole damn term.

Now were facing another typical Republican who wants to rebuild the country's "roads and bridges" and zero the budget for Amtrak to save us from certain doom. If he is elected, Romney will be no friend of rail, and as far as conventional rail goes, Obama's administration hasn't really acted. On the other hand Obama seems to be promising 4 more years of promises. Even Bill Clinton is out there cutting the floor out from under the president, and Clinton was no friend of Amtrak either.

As far as conventional rail is concerned, we have had, and are looking forward to 4 more years of a zero progress cluster F**k!

[BackinJax05]

I read a report from Amtrak on the National Association of Rail Passengers website. One of the options to restore Panhandle service was a revived Gulf Wind running from New Orleans-Jacksonville-Orlando. From Orlando the train would be deadheaded to Sanford for maintenance at the Auto Train terminal.
The other options presented were re-extending the Sunset Limited to Orlando, and extending The City of New Orleans from New Orleans to Orlando, then possibly to Miami at a future date.

The most cost effective train, according to the report, would be the Sunset Limited.

IMO the Amtrak report was skewed to tell us exactly what they wanted it to tell us. 'Cost Effective' is a rather vague term that suggests that the train needs to 'make money.' While that is certainly a noble goal it should be remembered that if forced to cover 100% of their costs, no passenger transportation system in or above America would be 'making money.' Does Amtrak really think that ridership in Mobile, Pensacola and Tallahassee would be better if served at 2 am? Hardly. Would a 3 days a week train be more likely then a daily train to attract passengers?

I think it makes no sense to try and 'extend' the Sunset all the way to Orlando, for the benefit of 12 passengers riding from Phoenix to Florida, when hundreds of potential Florida passengers would love to get between Jacksonville, Lake City, Madison, and Tallahassee, Chipley, Crestview, Pensacola, not to mention other Gulf Coast cities.

Since Amtrak appears to be brain dead, perhaps the states shouldn't be chasing this as an 'Amtrak' train and instead be talking to Virgin Trains, CSX or other railroad operators.

I agree. Personally I preferred the revived Gulf Wind, New Orleans-Orlando. My 2nd choice would be an extended City Of New Orleans. It would take a while to get to Chicago on an extended CONO, but it wouldnt require a transfer in Washington like it does now.

[Ocklawaha]

The Gulf Wind ran between Jacksonville and New Orleans, Orlando was never in the picture. Today Orlando dwarfs us, but it can't touch our rail facilities especially a revived JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL downtown. We already have 2 daily trains between New York and Miami via a CSX, Jacksonville - Orlando route and Amtrak is interested in expanding that ultimately to 6 trains daily (although the way they move, none of us will live to see it). That being said, any cars off of a Gulf Wind train could be forwarded to and from the south by a nocturnal Jacksonville - Tampa or Jacksonville - Orlando - Miami train. Making the Gulf Wind and what ever other trains we might ever get to terminate in our downtown has huge economic benefits, let's not send that to Orlando too.

OCKLAWAHA

[BackinJax05]

The Gulf Wind ran between Jacksonville and New Orleans, Orlando was never in the picture. Today Orlando dwarfs us, but it can't touch our rail facilities especially a revived JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL downtown. We already have 2 daily trains between New York and Miami via a CSX, Jacksonville - Orlando route and Amtrak is interested in expanding that ultimately to 6 trains daily (although the way they move, none of us will live to see it). That being said, any cars off of a Gulf Wind train could be forwarded to and from the south by a nocturnal Jacksonville - Tampa or Jacksonville - Orlando - Miami train. Making the Gulf Wind and what ever other trains we might ever get to terminate in our downtown has huge economic benefits, let's not send that to Orlando too.

OCKLAWAHA

Right. But as I read the report, Amtrak's "new and improved" Gulf Wind would go to Orlando.

Didnt know Amtrak wanted to put 6 trains through here. Like you, I hope I live to see that.

I think the reason Amtrak wants to run the train to Orlando is because of their maintenance facility in nearby Sanford. That and for Orlando/Disneybound passengers.

You're right about Jacksonville having better rail facilities and infrastructure. Ever been in the Orlando station on Sligh Blvd? Its pretty, historic (needs another restoration), but WAY too small for the number of passengers that pass through there. It only has one mens room and one womens room. As I recall, the SMALL mens room has 2 urinals, one toilet, and 2 sinks. Our Amshack has a better men's room.

A revived Jacksonville Terminal could easily handle 6 trains - or more (Unless the JTA butts in & fx it up) Who knows? Maybe Corrine could even get us a maintenance facility here, too.

[FayeforCure]

What's the chances of getting Amtrak service back to the Panhandle?

from what leaders in Tallahassee have heard from Amtrak, slim and none

and sorry Ock, that has very little to do with Obama...and a whole bunch more to do with folks like Mica and Boehner

Thanks tufsu1, it's because folks like Mica and Boehner ignore this all important job creating chart:

[JeffreyS]

What's the chances of getting Amtrak service back to the Panhandle?

from what leaders in Tallahassee have heard from Amtrak, slim and none

and sorry Ock, that has very little to do with Obama...and a whole bunch more to do with folks like Mica and Boehner

Thanks tufsu1, it's because folks like Mica and Boehner ignore this all important job creating chart:

Great chart Faye.

[tufsu1]

Faye...I don't think they ignore the chart....its just that their anti-government at all costs philosophy gets in the way...if Amtrak had private investors, they'd be all over it.

[JeffreyS]

Agree tufsu1 except you may want to substitute "theology" for philosophy.

[Ocklawaha]

Right. But as I read the report, Amtrak's "new and improved" Gulf Wind would go to Orlando.

Didnt know Amtrak wanted to put 6 trains through here. Like you, I hope I live to see that.

I think the reason Amtrak wants to run the train to Orlando is because of their maintenance facility in nearby Sanford. That and for Orlando/Disneybound passengers.

You're right about Jacksonville having better rail facilities and infrastructure. Ever been in the Orlando station on Sligh Blvd? Its pretty, historic (needs another restoration), but WAY too small for the number of passengers that pass through there. It only has one mens room and one womens room. As I recall, the SMALL mens room has 2 urinals, one toilet, and 2 sinks. Our Amshack has a better men's room.

A revived Jacksonville Terminal could easily handle 6 trains - or more (Unless the JTA butts in & fx it up) Who knows? Maybe Corrine could even get us a maintenance facility here, too.

There is MUCH MORE to this FECI announcement then meets the eye's of the press. The whole project is linked to the extension of the Northeast Corridor to Miami via Jacksonville and the Florida East Coast. This has been a Public-Private partnership for a long time, and CSX as well as NS are in it up to their roller bearings. The CSX applied for a massive capacity expansion of it's Washington - Jacksonville route a couple of years ago. Meanwhile the Carolina-Virgina segment is moving up incrementally from 79 - 110 mph +. This corridor is being done right and they are 'training' a auto-centric southern population to use rail by adding trains between Charlotte - Raleigh and DC.

      

Current Passenger Service

North Carolina's Amtrak Local Trains
North Carolina's Amtrak is a fleet of two state supported trains, the Piedmont and Carolinian which provide six trains daily to Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and nine other North Carolina cities.

Amtrak National Thru Trains
Five thru trains including the Carolinian, Crescent, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star make selected city stops through the state on their way to destinations south to New Orleans and Miami and north Washington D.C. and New York.

North Carolina Passenger Train Fast Facts

A total of over 900,000 passengers boarded trains in North Carolina in 2011.
Train travel time between Raleigh and Charlotte has been reduced by over an hour since the service began in 1995.
North Carolina has 3,384 miles of railroad track and 12 passenger trains serving 16 cities daily.
Over the past 15 years,
The N.C. Department of Transportation has invested about $300 million in the state's intercity passenger rail service, including renovation or construction of train stations, track work improvements and corridor preservation.
Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor Development

The U.S. Department of Transportation designated Charlotte to Washington, D.C. as a high-speed rail corridor in 1992. In 1998, SEHSR was expanded south to Macon, Ga. and to Jacksonville, Fl.
North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina and Georgia partnered to form a 4-state coalition to develop the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor to provide frequent, reliable passenger trains that can travel at top speeds of 90-110 miles per hour, and an average speed of 86 mph.
The corridor is being developed incrementally, upgrading existing railroad right of way.
Benefits of the SEHSR

New maps just out of USDOT put those trains into Atlanta quite soon. From Atlanta the corridor turns south straight to Jacksonville. (although how straight, directly to JAX, or VIA Savannah might depend on how much PULL our city will offer). Norfolk Southern tipped their hand the other day when the CEO said, 'Any future passenger trains on the NS would be operated by the NS!' Guess where the NS and the CSX will hook into that Florida East Coast public-private partnership? Yeah, you guessed it.... JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

So will the JRTC or something like it get built.

YOU BET.


Was the Miami Intermodal Center part of this FECI PLAN or Florida HSR?

YES AND YES, HOWEVER THIS IS BIGGER THEN EITHER AND UNCLE SAM AND HIS LITTLE DOG RICK, ARE BACKING IT.


Will the FECI 'study' show a demand and will they launch?

DONE DEAL.


Could those trains ever reach Jacksonville?

"TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!"


Will Amtrak survive as we know it?

ALL BETS ARE OFF.


So some future date will we be able to jump on a train for NYC or DC or ATLANTA or CHARLOTTE?

MIGHT AS WELL START PACKING YOUR BAGS NOW, THIS TRAIN IS COMING.


Will the GOP try to stop this from happening?

NOT A CHANCE, THEY'LL TWIST THE DETAILS TO MAKE IT LOOK 100% PRIVATELY OPERATED... BUT DON'T KID YOURSELVES.


Could Mica and the Amtrak hackers stop the 'Sunset Limited - Gulf Wind' from happening?

LET'S JUST SAY IT'S DROPPED TO PRIORITY NUMBER 34,567.


Is Rick Scott involved in the FECI-Passenger Rail Deal?

CAN YOU SPELL P-O-L-I-T-I-C-I-A-N? THE BOY SMELLS LIKE CREOSOTE ALREADY.


Will a GOP sweep in November kill this?

NOT UNLESS THEY WANT TO GET RUN OVER BY A TRAIN.



Now to your question BackInJax, changing out cars in Jacksonville, assuming that this train ever runs again, would be the same thing as running it through to Orlando. The additional benefit is they won't have to service it in Orlando, and the Locomotive miles are saved. For a passengers asleep in 'bedroom B and C' they'll never know the train they boarded as the Sunset/Gulf Wind is now part of the West Coast Champion.

Ah the crystal ball is shining brightly tonight. 

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

^ yes Ock....FECI will not operate the train....and I'm betting Amtrak will apply to be the provider

[Ocklawaha]

^ yes Ock....FECI will not operate the train....and I'm betting Amtrak will apply to be the provider

Let's not confuse the masses here TUFSU1, Amtrak WILL operate the first of the NYC-MIA trains to roll through Jacksonville. If they survive they will probably operate the second or third set to run on the same route. Those trains will use the Florida East Coast Railway between Jacksonville and Miami.

FECI will operate the Tampa/Orlando-Miami and the Jacksonville-Miami trains, both routes completely intrastate.

Southeast High Speed Rail, will be operated by Amtrak in the immediate future. If Amtrak is dismantled, those trains will simply change colors (literally) and continue operating under the management of the host railroads, or be farmed out to a third party, like Virgin Trains. Recent statements by the CEO's of three of the 'big four' rail systems, makes it sound like any idea of a third party is unlikely. In any case the government will be solidly involved and as Amtrak, at least as we know it, fades, we'll see increasing $$ invested in passenger rail. The Democrats will cheer that they 'SAVED' the passenger train, and the Republicans will cheer that they killed the 'Amtrak beast' and 'PRIVATIZED' the passenger train.

So much for today's reading of Ocklawaha's crystal ball...

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Actually Ock, FECI has said it will NOT operate the line....it intends to contract with someone (likely Amtrak) for that

[BackinJax05]

Right. But as I read the report, Amtrak's "new and improved" Gulf Wind would go to Orlando.

Didnt know Amtrak wanted to put 6 trains through here. Like you, I hope I live to see that.

I think the reason Amtrak wants to run the train to Orlando is because of their maintenance facility in nearby Sanford. That and for Orlando/Disneybound passengers.

You're right about Jacksonville having better rail facilities and infrastructure. Ever been in the Orlando station on Sligh Blvd? Its pretty, historic (needs another restoration), but WAY too small for the number of passengers that pass through there. It only has one mens room and one womens room. As I recall, the SMALL mens room has 2 urinals, one toilet, and 2 sinks. Our Amshack has a better men's room.

A revived Jacksonville Terminal could easily handle 6 trains - or more (Unless the JTA butts in & fx it up) Who knows? Maybe Corrine could even get us a maintenance facility here, too.

There is MUCH MORE to this FECI announcement then meets the eye's of the press. The whole project is linked to the extension of the Northeast Corridor to Miami via Jacksonville and the Florida East Coast. This has been a Public-Private partnership for a long time, and CSX as well as NS are in it up to their roller bearings. The CSX applied for a massive capacity expansion of it's Washington - Jacksonville route a couple of years ago. Meanwhile the Carolina-Virgina segment is moving up incrementally from 79 - 110 mph +. This corridor is being done right and they are 'training' a auto-centric southern population to use rail by adding trains between Charlotte - Raleigh and DC.

      

Current Passenger Service

North Carolina's Amtrak Local Trains
North Carolina's Amtrak is a fleet of two state supported trains, the Piedmont and Carolinian which provide six trains daily to Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and nine other North Carolina cities.

Amtrak National Thru Trains
Five thru trains including the Carolinian, Crescent, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star make selected city stops through the state on their way to destinations south to New Orleans and Miami and north Washington D.C. and New York.

North Carolina Passenger Train Fast Facts

A total of over 900,000 passengers boarded trains in North Carolina in 2011.
Train travel time between Raleigh and Charlotte has been reduced by over an hour since the service began in 1995.
North Carolina has 3,384 miles of railroad track and 12 passenger trains serving 16 cities daily.
Over the past 15 years,
The N.C. Department of Transportation has invested about $300 million in the state's intercity passenger rail service, including renovation or construction of train stations, track work improvements and corridor preservation.
Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor Development

The U.S. Department of Transportation designated Charlotte to Washington, D.C. as a high-speed rail corridor in 1992. In 1998, SEHSR was expanded south to Macon, Ga. and to Jacksonville, Fl.
North Carolina, Virginia, South Carolina and Georgia partnered to form a 4-state coalition to develop the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor to provide frequent, reliable passenger trains that can travel at top speeds of 90-110 miles per hour, and an average speed of 86 mph.
The corridor is being developed incrementally, upgrading existing railroad right of way.
Benefits of the SEHSR

New maps just out of USDOT put those trains into Atlanta quite soon. From Atlanta the corridor turns south straight to Jacksonville. (although how straight, directly to JAX, or VIA Savannah might depend on how much PULL our city will offer). Norfolk Southern tipped their hand the other day when the CEO said, 'Any future passenger trains on the NS would be operated by the NS!' Guess where the NS and the CSX will hook into that Florida East Coast public-private partnership? Yeah, you guessed it.... JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL.

So will the JRTC or something like it get built.

YOU BET.


Was the Miami Intermodal Center part of this FECI PLAN or Florida HSR?

YES AND YES, HOWEVER THIS IS BIGGER THEN EITHER AND UNCLE SAM AND HIS LITTLE DOG RICK, ARE BACKING IT.


Will the FECI 'study' show a demand and will they launch?

DONE DEAL.


Could those trains ever reach Jacksonville?

"TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!"


Will Amtrak survive as we know it?

ALL BETS ARE OFF.


So some future date will we be able to jump on a train for NYC or DC or ATLANTA or CHARLOTTE?

MIGHT AS WELL START PACKING YOUR BAGS NOW, THIS TRAIN IS COMING.


Will the GOP try to stop this from happening?

NOT A CHANCE, THEY'LL TWIST THE DETAILS TO MAKE IT LOOK 100% PRIVATELY OPERATED... BUT DON'T KID YOURSELVES.


Could Mica and the Amtrak hackers stop the 'Sunset Limited - Gulf Wind' from happening?

LET'S JUST SAY IT'S DROPPED TO PRIORITY NUMBER 34,567.


Is Rick Scott involved in the FECI-Passenger Rail Deal?

CAN YOU SPELL P-O-L-I-T-I-C-I-A-N? THE BOY SMELLS LIKE CREOSOTE ALREADY.


Will a GOP sweep in November kill this?

NOT UNLESS THEY WANT TO GET RUN OVER BY A TRAIN.



Now to your question BackInJax, changing out cars in Jacksonville, assuming that this train ever runs again, would be the same thing as running it through to Orlando. The additional benefit is they won't have to service it in Orlando, and the Locomotive miles are saved. For a passengers asleep in 'bedroom B and C' they'll never know the train they boarded as the Sunset/Gulf Wind is now part of the West Coast Champion.

Ah the crystal ball is shining brightly tonight. 

OCKLAWAHA

A train to Atlanta (& hopefully on to Chicago from there) would almost be a wet dream come true