A Closer Look At 220 Riverside

[thelakelander]

The Hallmark incentives for 220 Riverside? $5 million in tax rebates over 20 years.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/07/24/mayor-brown-signs-off-on-220-riverside.html

The fact that the city financed incentives for that project as well has fueled comments by some critics.

“The idea behind incentives is it kick-starts development in an area,” said John Winkler, one of several people who spoke against the legislation at a public hearing last week. “Here we are sort of doubling the project and increasing the amount of redevelopment going on in Brooklyn.”

Isn't this the point of incentives?  Is Winkler against redevelopment in Brooklyn?

[duvaldude08]

The Hallmark incentives for 220 Riverside? $5 million in tax rebates over 20 years.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/07/24/mayor-brown-signs-off-on-220-riverside.html

The fact that the city financed incentives for that project as well has fueled comments by some critics.

“The idea behind incentives is it kick-starts development in an area,” said John Winkler, one of several people who spoke against the legislation at a public hearing last week. “Here we are sort of doubling the project and increasing the amount of redevelopment going on in Brooklyn.”

Isn't this the point of incentives?  Is Winkler against redevelopment in Brooklyn?

I dont understand why anyone would be against development any in or around our downtown. Its not like these are some pie in the sky, 50 floor highrise conde dream project. They are just freaking apartments and a damn store. Its funny nobody 'debates" about money being spent on the southside... humm

[Tacachale]

Winkler seems to be the president of the anti-tax group Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County. They speak out fairly regularly against incentives and spending on stuff like this (yes, including on the Southside). Sounds like the journalist was just seeking a contrasting viewpoint.

[thelakelander]

I never heard them speak out to the widening of Butler Boulevard, the construction of SR 9B or the Outer Beltway. 

[Spence]

Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.

I care not if the "store" is a fresh market or a newer wally world concept.

I just find it ridiculous that some will clamour to turn dirt with a photog and golden shovel in hand to make a buck because as we all are experiencing, "nothing transcends the mighty dollar".

I am happy that this new housing development in "brooklyn" will have a grocery close enough so that new prospective residents might be more quickly sold on the idea of living near our Downtown, it just still boggles my mind that RAP isn't literally screaming for streetcar!

I understand holding patterns and engineered data, but some enhancements help most everyone.

Can anyone please opine regarding the sense (if any) behind extending the Skyway overhead toward BCBS, when the maintenance yard is the closest we see to at-grade?

Isn't 220 Riverside at least somewhat more than ideal for a streetcar connection?

[duvaldude08]

Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.

I think this remains to be seen. Has anyone confirmed that its wood?The rendering it looks like stucco? I just dont see anyone building apartments out of wood. Just wouldnt make sense.

[ben says]

Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.

I think this remains to be seen. Has anyone confirmed that its wood?The rendering it looks like stucco? I just dont see anyone building apartments out of wood. Just wouldnt make sense.

Drive down Jtb.  Wood structured apts going up at the town center

[Ocklawaha]

Can anyone please opine regarding the sense (if any) behind extending the Skyway overhead toward BCBS, when the maintenance yard is the closest we see to at-grade?

Isn't 220 Riverside at least somewhat more than ideal for a streetcar connection?

Eventual extension of the Skyway to BCBS makes sense for a couple of reasons. The FACT that the streetcar is likely to turn down Forest Street between either Park or Myrtle (though I prefer Myrtle) means that people riding the streetcar and wanting access to the Southbank, the Brooklyn projects, Everbank or the government center around Hemming Plaza, could easily change at Riverside and Forest to the Skyway.

As for 220 Riverside, a streetcar on Park would be in it's back yard, the other larger development would have streetcar at it's front door if the streetcar uses Park. Otherwise the Skyway having a station at the car barns, and another at Riverside and Forest with an option for yet another somewhere in between, makes the Skyway pretty ideal for a short extension.

Frankly, if the Skyway EVER reached 1. The Stadiums, 2. Shands/VA,  3. Forest and Riverside,  4. San Marco at Atlantic and maybe 5. The farmers market, I would then throw away the shovel and declare the project FINISHED.

Today the Skyway is all exits and no entrances, it can take you from nothing to nowhere, but at least you can't get to anything in between.

[fsujax]

Bob, who do you envision the Skyway getting to the Farmers Market? dont you think a streetcar would better serve that area?

[thelakelander]

Assuming the S-Line is rebuilt for some form of commuter rail, you'll need a grade separated crossing for a streetcar to access the farmer's market.  With that said, I'm still of the opinion that both a skyway extension to Forest and a streetcar in the same vicinity, connecting DT with Riverside may be overkill at this point.  I wouldn't promote such a project unless there were several other fixed transit corridors in various parts of the city already operational or under construction.

[Ocklawaha]

FSUJAX, Check out the aerial views. The Skyway could go due west of it's current terminus at the Jacksonville Terminal. Under the I95 viaduct and up and over the rail yards means the extension of the route would be short and direct.

As you know from our on-line discussions the Skyway's great weakness is that it is all exits and no entries, a farmers market station would tap the entire Woodstock Park area.

Streetcar from Water to Lee to Bay to Myrtle and hence into Riverside sets up Durkeeville for a future car line north along Myrtle. They would share an interchange at the Jacksonville Terminal.

To get streetcar into the Farmers Market would require a line up Myrtle and west on Beaver, there would be considerable expense in going up and over the Beaver Street Viaduct, (the original viaduct had streetcar tracks in it).  Both the Streetcar and the Skyway should run through the length of downtown using different routes. As it is today, it's a long hot walk from Central Station to the Police Station or Maxwell House.

Since the city went ahead with the ill advised Skyway (one I would NEVER have supported) we should seek to add another 4 miles of track to make it a fully functional downtown distributor system and a compliment to our streetcars. Each mode has it's own strong points and going up and over Honeymoon Yard/TTX instead of a roundabout via Myrtle and Beaver.   

I agree with Lake that we should focus on routes with no current service, I'd suggest the 'S' line, Streetcar from Newnan to King Street in Riverside, and Skyway east to the stadium and south into San Marco at Atlantic, as a phase one master plan.

[Spence]

^^^
Thanks Ock!
so logical