Peytons Pocket Park Disaster

[Lunican]

So is the park up for sale to the highest bidder? Does the city normally sell off park land to developers? I would think it would be harder to build something on a park than a parking lot.

City Hall stated that their goal was to get buildings on these blocks, but then they went ahead and spent money to get them further from their goal. Kind of weird.

[thelakelander]

We didn't NEED to spend $700k on sod.  If we really wanted to green the lot, you can get a 500sf pallet of St. Augustine Sod for about $100 bucks.  The site is 33,075sf, which means it would have taken 66 pallets of sod to fill it and create a passive greenspace (if desired).  At $100/pallet that comes out to $6,615.00.  Assume the same amount for labor and that puts you at $13,230.  Even if you wanted improved lighting and a few perimeter trees (the Federal grant would have funded them along Main) it could still be done for well less than $100k.

So with that said, the better choice should have been to leave the vacant lot and apply to $700k to improving a permanent public space.  Lets get real, this site is across the street from the butt of the Library.  The community would have been better served taking that money and spending it in Hemming (or some other park) to make them more of an inviting place and allow the free market to take control of the Main Street lot.

[big ben]

i'm thinking this park needs more attention from the tax payers.  since nobody is using this lot, we could also try to change that.  if people actually use the park, it's not  a complete disaster and developers might be more likely to want to use downtown.

i'm thinking if there is a group of people in this parket during rush hour, people will notice.  since these parkets are too small for most park activities except sitting activities, i'm thinking we could play croquet.  then again, i don't know enough about that to know if it would fit on one of these parkets.

regardless, i think it would draw attention, because how often do you actually see a group of people playing croquet.  we could set up a large sign or signs saying something like "the cost of this croquet field was $700,000" and large enough for people to easily read it while driving.  i also think this is better than just trying to draw attention to the cost, because people from the suburbs would see that people actually do things downtown when there isn't an event drawing them there.

does anyone else think this is a good idea?  if it does nothing else, i will at least have learned how to play croquet...maybe.

[Jason]

I find it hard to believe that this park will ever be sold off to developers.  10 to 20 years from now this park my be a welcomed addition in what could be a very active, urban, and dense downtown environment, however, the cost of the park could/should have been the responsibility of a developer versus the city.  There are too many other parks out there (as many have mentioned) that are being neglected and ignored that could have used the money and attention.

I guess these arguments are pointless though because it is built and isn't going anywhere and as Big Ben has suggested, we should try to make something of it so that it doesn't fall off of the charts like so many others around town.  This should be a "lesson learned" by the city though.

[JWW]

They did not spend 700K on just sod. I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.  Free market can still give you the computer graphic middle class housing that is in such high demand, but for some reason  the Mayor kept it off the property tax rolls. Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win. "Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

[thelakelander]

They did not spend 700K on just sod.

I agree.  If it is a temporary fix, it was flushed down the toilet on permanent elements like retaining walls.

I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.

Actually the free market didn't.  The creation of many of downtown's surface parking lots are heavily influenced by public policy.

Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win.

Its not a game.  The winners and losers are me, you and Duval County taxpayers.  The idea of a public park next to a Salvation Army, a one way freeway, the butt of the library and asphalt lots is a bad one, plain and simple.  It was bad a year ago and you're seeing the results off little usage today.

"Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

I think you're missing the point, unless you have no problem lighting money on fire.   The $700k could have been spent somewhere else and had a greater impact on more of the existing population.

Because that block is green, it won't bring people to the core and it won't get much usage, due to the location.  It may look nice driving by, but downtown should be designed to be a fish bowl or a tour ride.  In Baymeadows this type of designing may work, but in urban areas the success of public spaces are contingent on what takes place around them and how well they integrates with them.   

 

[vicupstate]

They did not spend 700K on just sod. I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.  Free market can still give you the computer graphic middle class housing that is in such high demand, but for some reason  the Mayor kept it off the property tax rolls. Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win. "Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

There is quite often OPPOSITION to converting park land to something else.  There was a proposal to convert a SMALL PERCENTAGE of an existing pocket park at the corner of Broad and Bay into parking so that an adacent building could have residential units.  The city council turned it down, primarily because 'park space shouldn't be developed'.   

It's not like the city didn't already have several useless pocket parks.  The one across the Florida Theater and the aforementioned Bay and Broad one show that they don't generate activity in and of themselves. 

In fact that $700,000 could have implemented Tri VU's plan for the FL Theater pocket park that would have made it a viable space. 

JAX has enough 'lessons learned' on DT screw-ups, to bring Wikipedia to it's knees.  It needs to start getting it right for a change.   

[JWW]

Well, I agree the park isn't going to be used as a park (lounging, picnic, etc.) - I don't plan on going there. The streetscape improvements would have been enough to visually improve main street as you drive through without the grass area.  What type of space is needed for the residence of the Cathedrals, 11 E. Forsyth, the Carling, Berkmans, Churchill Lofts, etc. to go walk, relax, play with dogs and children?  Is that the focus, and what needs to be built to start Downtown Jax on the right path?

[downtownparks]

I think one of the things we suggested at the time was for the city to issue an RFP that included not only market rate housing, but also included green elements. I believe it was over on MetJax, but I am pretty sure several people posted examples of mid/high rise style buildings with green elements.

[downtownparks]

Yeah, here are some of the threads from back then... We have hashed this all out before.

We are making the same points now that we made then. This to me was an issue on two fronts. The waste of money that could have been used in other parks, and the fact that we are continuing to turn our downtowns back on Main St.

Here is where it all started, and the issue was jumped on immediately by many of us.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2020&

Here is when we realized they were hammering it though regardless.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3756&

[thelakelander]

Yes, some of us also met with Adam Hollingsworth and Paul Crawford and suggested that as well.  In that case, the site would have been developed into something that put it back on the tax rolls, but also included a linear greenspace element.....at the developer's expense.  By combining the two you would have then had a space with retail/housing opening up onto it, thus providing it with a continuous flow of traffic.

What type of space is needed for the residence of the Cathedrals, 11 E. Forsyth, the Carling, Berkmans, Churchill Lofts, etc. to go walk, relax, play with dogs and children?  Is that the focus, and what needs to be built to start Downtown Jax on the right path?

There's a quaint pocket park at Market and Church Streets.  We have the Riverwalk, Hemming Plaza and a few existing pocket parks scattered in between.  On top of that you then have Metropolitan Park and the chain of parks lining Hogans Creek.  It can be argued that there's already plenty of park space in core that we need to improve and build upon to help them recieve more usage.

As for getting downtown off to the right track, I think we have to look at the issue of connectivity.  Overall we've made significant progress from a few years ago, but we need that extra umph to push it to the next level.  

People attract people and the more you can pile into a compact area with a diverse amount of uses, the more successful downtown will be.  If we applied that concept to parks, then we'd take a space like Hemming Plaza, clean it up, add additional uses within it (like a tot lot) and fill its borders with a mix of uses that are alive around the clock on all four sides (including city hall).  Once the vibrant epicenter is formed, things spreadout from there and connect to other nearby popular nodes like the Landing and the waterfront, via redeveloping corridors like Laura Street.

[gatorback]

Drove by the park for the 1st time in a year and saw a few what I think homeless people hanging out in the park. As far as posts go, I think this thread has been one of the best threads on the site.