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What is currently happening in sprawling Charlotte shows that all may not be lost for Jacksonville.
Tale of the Tape: Charlotte Population 2007: 671,588 (City); 1,651,568 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1768) Jacksonville Pop. 2007: 805,605 (City); 1,300,823 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1832) City population 1950: Jacksonville (204,517); Charlotte (134,042)
Metropolitan Area Growth rate (2000-2007)
Charlotte: +24.14%
Jacksonville: +15.86% Urban Area Population (2000 census) Charlotte: 758,927 (ranked 47 nationwide)
Jacksonville: 882,295 (ranked 43 nationwide) Urban Area Population Density (2000 census) Charlotte: 1,745
Jacksonville: 2,149.2 City Population Increase from 2000 to 2007 Charlotte: +130,760
Jacksonville: +69,988 Convention Center Exhibition Space: Charlotte: Convention Center (yb. 1995) - 280,000 square feet
Jacksonville: Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center (1986) - 78,500 square feet Tallest Building: Charlotte: Bank of America Corporate Center - 871 feet
Jacksonville: Bank of America Tower - 617 feet Daytime Downtown Employee Population: Charlotte: 77,000
Jacksonville: 60,000 Downtown Fortune 500 companies: Charlotte: Bank of America (9), Wachovia (38), Duke Energy (204)
Jacksonville: CSX (261), Fidelity National Financial (435), Fidelity National Information Services (481) Urban Renewal: Charlotte: Charlotte's Second Ward was originally an African American neighborhood called Brooklyn, until it was completely removed.
Jacksonville: Jacksonville's LaVilla, Florida's first urban African American district was completely removed by urban renewal. Nearby Brooklyn is also well on its way to losing its identity. Urban infill obstacles: Charlotte: Uptown Charlotte is completely cut off from the rest of the city by a loop expressway system (I-277).
Jacksonville: State & Union Streets cut off Downtown Jacksonville from Springfield. Downtown Mall: Charlotte: Overstreet Mall - an indoor shopping center with several skywalks that is criticized for taking life off the streets.
Jacksonville: The Landing - an indoor/outdoor festival marketplace that turns its back to the downtown core. Common Downtown Albatross: Surface Parking Lots - Both city's downtowns have too many. 
This Google Earth aerial highlights the large number of surface parking lots surrounding Charlotte's Uptown. Best Downtown Asset: Charlotte: Progressive Civic Leadership that makes Downtown revitalization a priority; New Light Rail System
Jacksonville: St. Johns River; Remaining historic building fabric 
NoDa ("North Davidson") NoDa (short for "North Davidson") is the "arts district" of Charlotte, North Carolina, USA. It is located in North Charlotte on and around North Davidson Street, approximately one mile northeast of Uptown. Formerly an area of textile manufacturing and mill workers' residences, the area has also served as a center for the arts. The name "NoDa" was coined by architect Russell Pound. The neighborhood is known for its funky art galleries and colorful bungalows. In addition to old mill houses, NoDa has seen a boom in residential construction in the past few years. 
The South End
Historic South End, often referred to as The South End, is a neighborhood immediately south of Uptown Charlotte, North Carolina. The South End has its beginning in the 1850's with Charlotte's first railroad line, connecting the Queen City to Columbia and Charleston, SC. As time passed a thriving manufacturing community sprang up along the tracks, centered on the booming textile industry. The industrial area declined during the 1970s and 1980s, only to be revived in the early 1990s as restaurants, shops, and design-related industries discovered the old mills and warehouses. Today, the South End has become a hotspot for transit oriented development, along the new light rail line. 
  
 
The First Ward
First Ward was once one of the most dangerous areas in Charlotte, but due to recent revitalization under a HUD HOPE VI grant, it has become one of the more desirable. Many new developments are planned and under construction. The most noticeable development is the new Time Warner Cable Arena. UNC Charlotte is planning to build a new academic building in the First Ward as part of an urban village project being developed by Levine Properties. The current plans for the urban village include a 4-acre (16,000 m²) park, 450,000 sq ft (42,000 m²) of office space, 2,700 residential units, 250 hotel rooms, 250,000 sq ft (23,000 m²) of retail space, and 450,000 sq ft (42,000 m²) of civic space. Current attractions include: Spirit Square, ImaginOn Children's Learning Center, Levine Museum of the New South, and the Mint Museum of Craft + Design. On Tryon at Sixth Street, one of Charlotte's historic gems is being preserved and connected to a new condo project called Encore. 
 Second Ward Second ward is the location of Charlotte's "Government District" and will be the location of the new NASCAR Hall of Fame. Second Ward used to be the location of the predominantly African American neighborhood Brooklyn before urban renewal took place. Many new developments are under construction or proposed. EpiCentre, a mixed-use entertainment and retail complex, is under construction on the site of the old Charlotte convention center. In the EpiCentre project, a high-rise condominium tower, 210 Trade, and an aLoft hotel will be located. Donald Trump proposed a 72-story project called Trump Charlotte which will be the tallest building in Charlotte. It will include luxury condos, a five-star hotel, office tower, and high-end retail. 
An aerial of Mecklenburg County's new courthouse. 
Third Ward
Center City's Third Ward is a diverse, quaint, turn of the century streetcar neighborhood home to Bank of America Stadium and Gateway Village which is one of the state's largest mixed-use developments with 1,500,000 sq ft (139,000 m²) of office, shops, restaurants, and over 500 housing units. The most exciting new project is Wachovia's First Street Project, comprising cultural, office, residential, and open space. Johnson & Wales University is expanding its campus in the Center City while the Mecklenburg County's Parks and Recreation Department has unveiled plans for an urban park in the district. Multiple condominium high rise towers have begun or are ready to begin construction. Plans are also underway to construct a $200 million transportation hub along the Norfolk-Southern Railway. Gateway Station will be completed in 2010. 
4th Ward 
Uptown/Downtown
The history of the dual name is contested, yet prior to the mid-late 1980s, the term "Downtown" was used by residents, media and city leaders for the center city area. During the 1980s, a massive campaign was launched to revamp the image of the downtown area and the term "Uptown" was introduced to the general public. On February 14, 1987 the Charlotte Observer began using the term "Uptown" as a way to promote a more positive upbeat image of the center city area. School teachers were provided with "historical" documents justifying use of the term to teach to students. Charlotte neighborhood descriptions from wikipedia.org 
 
City Walkability Ranking (According to Walkscore.com)
Charlotte: (38 out of 40 - second to dead last)
Jacksonville: 40 out of 40 - dead last)
Who's Downtown is more walkable?
Charlotte: 82 out of 100, according to walkscore.com
Jacksonville: 88 out of 100, according to walkscore.com Article by Ennis Davis |
August 19, 2008, 7:23 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Why is Downtown Jacksonville at a standstill?When other cities are growing their urban cores..who is responsible?and why?I have been here since 1995 and no real changes to draw me to downtown.Please dont say the Landing that place is a joke!!!Its dead.If you look what other cities have done since 1995 it does not make sense, its not like Jax is a small town.When I have guests come town there is take no place to take them ,maybe the beach that is it.javascript:void(0);Not to be negative but I believe our downtown has stunted our growth as a region.
August 19, 2008, 8:12 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I have been to Charlotte many times. It is very similar to Jacksonville but with a bigger corporate presence. I think if Jacksonville had BOA and Wachovia, our downtown would be ahead of Charlotte's.
August 19, 2008, 8:30 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
As an Architect, I almost want to cry. Projects like the ones depicted are what we dream about here in Jacksonville. And, they're not even that monumental or magnificent. They are strikingly simple and straightforward, but the use of modern forms, techniques and material treatments while still maintaining the feel of a historic heritage is simply wonderful. Even the Meklenberg Courthouse: no one would ever mistake that structure for anything other than a civic/government building, but it's clean lines and simple forms stand out unlike the same old rotunda and colonnade that seems to be the only way to go in Jacksonville.
As a designer, the only way to express modern/responsible design is on the interior. In Jacksonville the only acceptable exterior treatment is stucco facades and fiberglass columns. In 50 years what are people going to think of Jacksonville? All they'll have to go on are the buildings we erect today. I weep for our future. Charlotte isn't exactly on the cutting edge compared to some of the other major cities in the U.S., but they are certainly light years ahead of us and will most likely stay with that comfortable lead for many years to come.
August 19, 2008, 8:54 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Actually, stjohnsguy, our growth as a region has stunted our growth downtown is more reality.
Seems this article is more about the retailers and innovative developers, commercial and residential, who were willing to go into Charlotte's downtown neighborhoods -- not just a cooperative municipal govt (though that helps, too). Just try to get Office Depot and other national retailers to think inside our urban boundaries -- outside the normal neFL box -- here. It won't happen, and that's just as much a result of the suburban-minded commercial brokers and difficult urban landowners.
But, as in metrojacksonville's article yesterday, maybe there is hope. With Wal-Mart reconsidering its model, other retailers and retail brokers will have to wake up and follow suit eventually. Then formulaic commercial developers will have to do the same.
NeFL is not going to run out of developable land anytime soon. We need to run out of suburban brokers and developers...
August 19, 2008, 9:01 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
The first picture below the Third Ward paragraph: take a closer look...
Do you see whose building that is? That's right, Johnson and Wales University. This is a primary example of why my hometown will continue to lag behind cities like Jax and Charlotte. There is NO WAY J & W's building would've been built in Chas...absolutely not. The reason is that while Chas does have positives in its preservation culture, the culture has become an obsession for many people who live there. While some modern designs rarely get by the BAR (the new MUSC tower), a building like J & W's would've been severely criticized. The footprint is huge, as well as the layout, and it's very modern.
It is one of the main reasons why J & W moved from Chas to Charlotte. The university knew that the city and its preservation groups would've made it very difficult to build a substantial flagship building.
Jax, on the other hand, does not have the kind of obsessive preservation like my hometown, and neither does Charlotte. Jax has a sizeable urban footprint, and it has room to grow. Charlotte has used its advantages as a hub of the Carolinas, and the city has a lot of money invested in it because of all the banks. Jax seems to have a mixture of different industries, which affects how those industries spend their money on their downtown locations. Maybe Jax could focus on more industry clusters?
Jax seems to be very slow in getting projects done, and I think this is the main difference between the 2 cities, here. The J & W building and relocation was pretty quick...only 2-3 years. Things get built fast in Charlotte, but in Jax, not so much. Why do things take longer to get built there (the courthouse, for example)?
August 19, 2008, 9:22 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
The major difference between Charlotte and Jax, is that Charlotte's leaders appear to have a long term vision and they make sure that every project going up gets them closer to that vision.
For example, Charlotte wanted a college in their downtown core and went to Charleston and recruited J&W away from that city. On the other hand, we had the opportunity get Florida Coastal downtown and they ended up going to the Southside. Today, J&W's campus anchors the Third Ward and continues to attract nearby infill housing. Unfortunately, now Florida Coastal's new campus sits in the middle of an office park with little impact on the surrounding environment.
While Charlotte's banks are leaders (just look at Wachovia's new complex now under construction), things would be different, if the city did not have a vision and instead, continued to approve hodge podge infill projects with little thought on how they integrate with their immediate surroundings.
As for the modern architecture, its impressive. They definately allow creativity in the design of infill projects throughout the community. I love the modern gothic style of J&W's campus. Some of the small infill multifamily developments look pretty good too. Even the new courthouse design is starting to grow on me. It really is a good example of using design as a way to make a simple structure attractive. Sometimes, we believe that throwing money at things is the only way to make improvements attractive. However, the Charlotte courthouse is a plain jane office box, but it has an interesting mix of solids and voids that make it stand out.
August 19, 2008, 10:06 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Do you see whose building that is? That's right, Johnson and Wales University. This is a primary example of why my hometown will continue to lag behind cities like Jax and Charlotte. There is NO WAY J & W's building would've been built in Chas...absolutely not. The reason is that while Chas does have positives in its preservation culture, the culture has become an obsession for many people who live there. While some modern designs rarely get by the BAR (the new MUSC tower), a building like J & W's would've been severely criticized. The footprint is huge, as well as the layout, and it's very modern.
It is one of the main reasons why J & W moved from Chas to Charlotte. The university knew that the city and its preservation groups would've made it very difficult to build a substantial flagship building.
Jax seems to be very slow in getting projects done, and I think this is the main difference between the 2 cities, here. The J & W building and relocation was pretty quick...only 2-3 years. Things get built fast in Charlotte, but in Jax, not so much. Why do things take longer to get built there (the courthouse, for example)?
J&W did not leave Charleston because it could not build within the historic district. It left because it wanted to add a Business school, and Charlotte was a natural fit for that. More importantly, the city and state provided $10mm. Having the mayor, governor and Presidents of two banks (and do doubt offering favorable financing) courting you, was certainly critical as well.
Charleston could not compete with that, it is as simple as that. It is bogus to blame it on preservation. J&W had a prosperous chef school dispite the 'burden' of preservation.
There is a huge regret in Charlotte that more of their historic fabric wasn't preserved. Doing so was a significant part of why their DT struggled for so long, before finally achieving the success they enjoy now, which has only been evident in the last 5-6 years.
August 19, 2008, 10:23 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Vic, I'm afraid that your constant defense of anything that deals with preservation serves as nothing but a bias against the true nature of why Chas lost J&W. I did not say it was the sole reason for the school leaving the city, but it was one of the main reasons. Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that J&W would've been able to build a similar building in downtown Chas?
Yes, Charlotte had more financial backing. But Charlotte also has the ability to bulldoze blocks of dilapidated areas. It does not kowtow to preservation groups who constantly cry foul for anything big and modern. Designers have more free reign to build exactly what business owners want in their buildings.
Your 2nd sentence actually negates your argument and supports mine. Since J&W wanted a larger campus and business school, they realized that they could not remain in Chas, because the hurdles to get a project like that would be tremendous. Funding would woo the university, of course, but if Chas was serious about keeping it, the city would've taken measures to ease restrictions on the university's plans for a larger campus...maybe even provided the land for the campus...like Concord Park!
Chas is capable of making mistakes, vic, just like Jax. This was a pretty big one.
August 19, 2008, 11:06 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Yes, Charlotte had more financial backing. But Charlotte also has the ability to bulldoze blocks of dilapidated areas. It does not kowtow to preservation groups who constantly cry foul for anything big and modern. Designers have more free reign to build exactly what business owners want in their buildings.
Your 2nd sentence actually negates your argument and supports mine. Since J&W wanted a larger campus and business school, they realized that they could not remain in Chas, because the hurdles to get a project like that would be tremendous. Funding would woo the university, of course, but if Chas was serious about keeping it, the city would've taken measures to ease restrictions on the university's plans for a larger campus...maybe even provided the land for the campus...like Concord Park!
Chas is capable of making mistakes, vic, just like Jax. This was a pretty big one.
You have a bias AGAINST preservation, that clouds every argument you make regarding Charleston. Any problem they have, is somehow related to preservation in your mind. Preservation didn't stop the Charleston Place hotel, but it did make it better. Preservation didn't prevent the Hollings Cancer Center OR the Federal Building expansion OR the County Courthouse addition from happening, it merely influenced the respective designs.
Just because J&W built a mid-rise in Charlotte does not mean that it had to do the same in Charleston. It could have done the same thing it did with it's chef school, taken an existing building and rehabbed it. The College of Charleston has done the same thing coutless times with it's buildings. It may take more effort, the resut is worth it. Charleston has a character and uniqueness that neither Jacksonville, nor Charlotte, nor just about any city, will ever be able to match.
For that matter, it could have had a separate campus in West Ashley or Mount Pleasant if J&W has determined to stay in the Charleston market.
Can you see Governor Mark Sanford agreeing to spend $10mm just to keep J&W? You would need LSD to hallucinate that much.
I do not recall EVEN ONE reference to preservation restrictions as being one of the reasons J&W left. Charleston is not the center of corporate business that Charlotte is. Having companies that would be able to interim their students was no doubt important to them. Do you have anything to back up your assumption that a perceived inability to build in DT Charleston was a reason they left? They had no plans to leave at all, until the Charlotte power brokers offered them money to do so.
August 19, 2008, 11:08 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I have been to Charlotte twice this summer and agree that Charlotte is far ahead of Jax in its development. I stayed in the 3rd ward, about 3 or four blocks from Trade and Tryon. I used my car maybe once all weekend to go see a movie, but that was it. There were restaurants, museums, movies, shopping, entertainment, and bars all within walking distance. I have said it before, but Charlotte is far beyond Jax even after the proposed developments in Jax are built. Additionally, Charlotte will widen the gap in the next few years with Wachovia's massive expansion and the other construction they have lined up. Between this article and one posted a few months ago, metrojacksonville has given a very good picture of urban Charlotte.
August 19, 2008, 11:54 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Can you see Governor Mark Sanford agreeing to spend $10mm just to keep J&W? You would need LSD to hallucinate that much.
Excessive preservation is a key element in a city's culture that can determine what businesses can do in their downtown. Business leaders will keep that in mind when making a business decision about their location, because they're also planning for the future. If a leader knows that it will be very difficult to expand for the future, he/she will be more open to completely relocating. J&W is a primary example. Of course, you won't find a quote in the newspaper, but since when was the Post and Courier really unbiased in its reporting on preservation? Case in point, they have Robert Behre, a huge preservationist, as a "reporter". J&W's president gave politically-correct reasons for the college leaving...but even if he didn't, the P&C would edit them accordingly.
I went to school and worked downtown for many years...if you asked most of the business owners (besides tourist-oriented places), they would agree with me.
August 19, 2008, 4:11 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I was actually pretty underwhelmed by the photos posted of Charlotte. They have a sea of surface lots downtown which look to be more extensive than even the ones in Jax. They have little in the way of historic neighborhoods around downtown like we do. And the new apartments/condos they have built as infill housing appear to be shoddily built with cheap materials and bad architecture. They will not wear well IMO.
The best thing they have going for them are the 2 large banks downtown and the rail transit. Other than that (which is admittedly a big plus) they are basically a hyped up Winston-Salem at best.
August 19, 2008, 4:29 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I think that's a bit harsh, RSG. My question is what are the goals of the cities of Jacksonville or Charlotte? To be a southern New York, or another version of Atlanta? I think both cities actually give Southerners a place where they can enjoy urban living without the clutter and stress of cities like NYC and Atlanta. Jax and Charlotte clearly have benefits without having to be another mess like Atlanta.
August 19, 2008, 4:38 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Lol, I spent some time in Winston-Salem too. I was impressed. That downtown has seen a lot of redevelopment in the last five years or so, since my last visit. The old preserved atmosphere of Salem is an impressive inner city asset to have as well. Just wait to those images show up on the front page.
August 19, 2008, 4:46 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I think we (as a city) really don't know what we want to be in the future and have no solid idea of how to get to whatever point that is, in the future. In turn, we're well on our way to becoming the next Orlando (minus the theme parks). I can't say Atlanta, because that city's core is booming along the MARTA subway lines. Charlotte, on the other hand, appears to want to become a better Charlotte. They've realized that they can't bring back the past and they don't wallow in it. Instead, its moving forward and becoming its own unique trendsetter, in the process.
August 19, 2008, 4:55 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
^ Good answer, lake. Now the question is, how do we make Jacksonville a better Jacksonville? Do we follow all of these other urbanism developments like Charlotte, or do we accomplish things that make Jax unique? I believe it already is very unique and more pleasant than Charlotte. All it can do is build on that.
August 19, 2008, 5:22 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Urbanism is not unique. Charlotte is embracing things that have made cities like San Francisco, Savannah and St. Augustine the vibrant places they are today. We should embrace those things (see yesterday's article) as well. As long as we don't erase our history, culture and natural landscape in the process, we'll become a better Jacksonville and still maintain our identity.
August 20, 2008, 1:23 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I don't think that RG is being harsh; He's tellin' it like it is. Charotte has a large NASCAR presence, and a coupla well off banks; Jax's CSX, and W/D AREN'T going anywhere, but some banks in CHAR might. CHAR is a very DRY inland city with no major waterways; It has a very weird, and short asymmetrical skyline wit' basically one building with some good height; Not exactly ATL. Jax's skyline is more balanced than Char, and looks better IMO. Charlotte is an older city than Jax, but Jax seems to be older, as many of it's neighborhoods have grit, and MANY historical buildings too. Charlotte has one okay theme park Carowinds. Jax has a SUPERIOR waterway advantange over dry Charlotte. Jax has better hospitals (Mayo etc.) than Charotte. Jax has a freakin' beach; not CHAR. Jax is more scenic, and it's golf courses are better.
Once my "Aunt-in-law" invited my Mom to go wit' her to CHAR; "A-i-l" always brags about how GREAT CHAR is, and downgrades JAX; My Mom couldn't WAIT to get outta CHAR; It's so overrated!!!!I went there once to go to Carowinds, and that's it! Jax over Char hands down!!!!!!!!!!!These are MY OPINIONS(Alot are facts)!!!!!Okay!!!!
August 20, 2008, 8:47 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
^ I-10East, I've been to Charlotte myself, and I wouldn't say that it's overrated...it's just different. Its presence as a financial and transportation hub of the Carolinas have made it such a grand city. Is it better than Jax? Well, IMO, absolutely not. Indeed, Jax has so many things to do and see in its own way...and its location near the coast is such a plus. These are some of the reasons why I want to move down there and make it my home.
Incidentally, since I've been submitting resumes to different hospitals and organizations, Charlotte might be where we make our next move, unfortunately. I have yet to get an interview at any of Jax's hospitals or organizations, but the doors have been opening in Charlotte.
August 20, 2008, 8:58 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I agree, its different. However, it has excelled in creating a vibrant urban core. The images and number of cranes in the sky, despite the poor economy, are proof. There's no reason to deny or downplay this regardless of how one feels about the community, its history or architecture.
August 20, 2008, 12:31 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
^^^There are "cranes in the sky" here in Jax too; ORL, MIA, Tampa, and all over the Southeast U.S. What makes CHAR so special? I don't know any other reason to why I would ever go to CHAR again. Cities I rather live over CHAR (That I've been to)...
Colorado Springs (beautiful!)
Denver
El Paso (Hispanic vibe in this town, that I love)
Louisville
NY area
Eastern Virginia
Delaware
NM area (Capitan, NM is stunning!)
ATL area
Charleston, SC
Myrtle Beach
Orlando
Gainesville(even though I'm NOT a Gator fan)
Tampa
Miami area
Sandusky, OH
Cincinnati(the REAL "Queen City"; CHAR bit it by callin' itself "The Queen city of the South"; That's original!!)
and probably some others.
I'm sorry Charleston Native but CHAR isn't grand; Cities like Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, and Wash are; Not Charlotte; Jax is probably more grand than CHAR
I'm glad to be in my REAL home, DUVAL County FL.
August 20, 2008, 12:50 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I-10, I agree with you on some of the cities you listed...I would indeed consider living in some of them over Charlotte. But this is merely a preference of cities. I personally would abhor the thought of living in ATL or NYC, let alone Delaware. Delaware?!?!
Regardless, Charlotte has many attributes that indeed make it grand. If we end up moving there, I won't be complaining much...except that we'll be further from the coast.
Jax is indeed better than Charlotte in many aspects. However, some people would disagree with you, and putting down Charlotte, considering its stature among national and international companies, doesn't hold much water.
It really is a matter of preference.
August 20, 2008, 12:52 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
There is one in downtown Jax and it hasn't moved since the Berkman garage came down.
They are having success in turning a city more spread out than Jax, into a one with large pedestrian friendly districts. This is something we are still struggling with. This does not mean we have to move there, but it is something we should take notice of. Why leave our heads in the sand if we can learn something positive from a similar sized city that's already doing many of the things we want to see happen here?
This is kind of irrelevent to the discussion. Nevertheless, since you mention it, I would not prefer to live in Charlotte either, because I prefer coastal cities. However, this does not take away from or downplay the progressive work of the community.
I think we all are. However, this does not mean we still don't want to see our community's quality of life improve.
August 20, 2008, 1:16 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
(Lakelander Quote)This is kind of irrelevent to the discussion. Nevertheless, since you mention it, I would not prefer to live in Charlotte either, because I prefer coastal cities. However, this does not take away from or downplay the progressive work of the community.
(Lakelander Quote)
What about those southbank cranes?? My bad Lake for goin' of course a lil' but Riverside Gator explained CHAR to the tee; It has prominent banks, and NASCAR; That's basically it. I'm NOT downplaying anything. It is what it is, a banking center in the Southeast; Does it hold a candle to NYC banks? Ummmm, No. Is CHAR progressive, and probably more progressive than Jax? Yes. Is CHAR a johnny-come-lately? Yes. By CHAR being an inland city does that hurt it a lil' when it comes to commerce? Yes. Does Jax's CSX trains run thru CHAR? Yes. Is CHAR notable wit' anything besides banks, and NASCAR? No IMO. Is Charlotte overrated? Yes IMO. Is CHAR "lightyears" ahead of Jax? No; Is it a lil' ahead of Jax? Yes. Is CHAR another ATL? Noooooooo!Does it have more F-500 companies than ATL? No. Is Orlando ahead of CHAR is some ways? Yes. I'm NOT walkin' on eggshells for CHAR okay! It's alright, and I'm not downplaying it, but CHAR isn't the "end all be all". IMO this "pedestrian crap" is overrated; I walk and ride a bike ALL OVER JAX, and I'm still alive.
August 20, 2008, 1:31 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Where? The little thing at Kings Avenue Station? Its not a tower crane, but if counted that would make a whopping two.
To sum it all up, all the article shows is that Charlotte has been successful in attempting to turn low density sprawl into a walkable community, which is not overrated, imo. Especially considering we continue to spend hundreds of thousands on consultant studies to figure out how we can do the exact same. Some have no problem with Jax's core currently resembling a burnt out shell of its former self, but there is a significant part of the population that would like to see us do a little better.
August 20, 2008, 1:33 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
August 20, 2008, 1:42 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
^^^Amen CN. Oh yeah, I forgot about Lowe's(Mooreville, NC) a relatively new home improvement titan, that competes wit' Home Depot; Those are the only things (along wit' racing, and two banks) I can think of concernin' CHAR. So much for me downplaying Charlotte.
August 20, 2008, 2:17 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I have just moved to charlotte for college, and quite honestly, i have not been impressed with the Lnyx system, and according to many natives here, neither have they...
August 20, 2008, 2:36 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
What do you find so depressing about the new light rail system? In your opinion, would Charlotte be better off without it?
August 20, 2008, 4:56 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Is it safe to say that MARTA(in ATL) is the only thing that's worth a damn in the Southeast? Hell, go the SSC's Miami forum, and they are complaining about their transit in MIA. NYC's MTA blows EV'RYONE's outta the freakin' water; Not even close. According to the person that lived in CHAR the "Lynx system" ain't all of that.
August 20, 2008, 5:03 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Sure Lynx, MARTA, the EL, BART, Metrorail, TRE, etc. they all suck. None of them have anything on the Skyway. If its not Duval based, screw them all.
August 20, 2008, 5:06 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
^^^You're right about that.
I was givin' ATL props with it's MARTA system.
August 25, 2008, 2:28 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
One of the reasons that CLT is growing in front of JAX, is the presences of a major international airport. If serves as a hub to a large airline (US Airways is a crap airline... but still a bog one
August 25, 2008, 10:40 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Fantastic point, jbirch! Welcome to MetroJax, BTW.
Some of the cities that alot of you have used to demonstrate how Jax's downtown is "substandard" have that international component with its airport. Charlotte and Atlanta are large air travel hubs...Raleigh has even become a part of the equation in the South. Being a consistent international destination opens up more business opportunities for those cities, as well as exposes them to urban influences from other countries.
One asset to focus on would be extending the Skyway to the airport. That would place a direct line from the hub to the downtown core. Build this infrastructure first...a new convention center, more hotels, and more retail will come later, and they will come with an urbanism mindset.
August 25, 2008, 10:53 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
For better clarification, the purpose of these threads are to show what is going on in the downtowns and inner city neighborhoods of our peer cities. These are the places we have to compete head-to-head for high paying jobs, recent college graduates and educated workforces. You don't want to get left behind, if we want to remain a competitive city in attracting the things mentioned above. So to that effect, its always good to know what's going on (good or bad) down the street.
In any event, there's always some excuse that can be developed for why some place has something that we believe can't happen here. However, for everyone of those, there's a Cleveland, Pittsburgh, St. Petersburg, Chattanooga, Louisville, etc. out there that has had strong visual success in their cores as well. With our assets, urban landscape and history, we can and should strive to be at the top of this list, regardless of airport size, theme parks, downtown population, colleges, tourism, rail or whatever.
August 25, 2008, 8:32 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I simply was stating that with access that CLT has to an international community, their development will come easier. I want Jacksonville to be at the top of every list. I feel that we have a wonderful city that with the help of citizens and groups like these we can only make it better. However attracting ventures that we do not have now, as in my post, access to a global market, will make this endeavor much easier. It will also provide the capital that we need. Jacksonville is a large Banking and Insurance center and exploiting that will help us. Also when Jacksonville residents voted down to reopen Cecil Field as a US Navy Jet Base, we shot our selves in the foot. For a major city to have 2 Air bases, a carrier capable ship base, and a nuclear base, all in a 30 mile radius, that would have propelled our economy, and we would not be feeling the pinch that we are now. I bite my thumb at the residents that built their houses so close to an airstrip that they feel that the military can't come back.
August 25, 2008, 9:34 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
I fully agree with your points, excellent insight into Jacksonville's air scene. I started my transportation teeth cutting down at the PI counter at JAX. Also did a contract job with CO then UA. Loads were NEVER a problem at PI. In fact overbooking was. I probably gave away or sent as many passenger seats to DL then we flew! But note that we came in, boomed to mini-hub status, crew base, hanger, repair etc.. before the plane hungry-cash short USA came with a leveraged buyout. Had PI stayed in JAX, as an independent, I'm fairly sure we would have had that hub status. Air Florida and Dolphin were two more missed opportunities. Knocking out Cecil had to be the worst, I still wish we could woo them to Camp Blanding, or to reopen Green Coves NAS LEE Field.
Are you up on the new happenings in LTA? The Zeppelin Corp. is back with a bang, and bigger trans-atlantic ships are planned. I think we're fools if we don't at least make a connection with them. The first cross pond crossing is to SFO aboard the new LZ-NT.
OCKLAWAHA
The resident transit monster
August 25, 2008, 9:40 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Great points. Do you think we can establish ourselves as an international player through continued port expansion?
August 25, 2008, 9:47 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Truth be told, MARTA isn't all that either... Atlanta needs bold expansion in all directions of this system. Likewise other supporting transit, IE: Skyway, BRT, LRT, Streetcar, and Commuter Rail are missing in action.
MIA and CLT, are hardly "systems"... at least not yet. MIA is way out in front with DPM (Skyway), BRT, Streetcar (coming), Heavy Rail and Commuter rail. CLT just has the base laid for a future system, a starter if you will, however CLT isn't stopping at BAY AND HOGAN, they are going for the goal line. Commuter Rail, LRT, Streetcar, and BRT will play a role, give them a few decades and check in.
Yes NYC MTA blows everyone away, but it too has it's weak points, old, old tunnels are showing their age, routes of what were once several private companies, cross each-other helter-skelter. This is being addressed with new access to GCT, and a whole new subway mainline, that will consolidate many lines into one. Streetcars are being studied up top, Commuter rail is mature and nearly perfection, but the've been building on it since we were sweeping up ashes from the Yankee invaders.
OCKLAWAHA
August 25, 2008, 9:51 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
EVERYONE note that Lakelander didn't ask me that!
We were recently refered to in an international shipping news piece as "THE PORT OF GOLD". Need I say more about what I think? Number 3 in the Atlantic in 20 years or less (if we don't do something stupid to mess it up like lock it all to CSX, etc.)
WHY?
There is a HUGE difference in a steamship line calling on a state port (Georgia or Carolinas) or in owning it's very on terminal, one in which they'll call HOME PORT.
OCKLAWAHA
August 26, 2008, 5:20 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
Great points. Do you think we can establish ourselves as an international player through continued port expansion?
Oh by far yes. I think that we are well on our way with the new shipping companies that are coming in from Asia. With the proposed cruise terminal at Mayport we could become a very attractive port for cruise lines. Has anyone seen the plans for what the terminal will look like? Has anyone been to the airport lately....I love it so clean and fresh looking with new shopping opening almost weekly...
October 1, 2008, 3:59 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
With the failure of Wachovia, its largest employer, Charlotte residents fear for the community's future.
Charlotte Residents Brace for Losses as Bank Is Sold
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Construction workers were still hammering away Monday at the site of a downtown skyscraper that, as of last week, was supposed to house the new headquarters of Wachovia Corp.
"I guess it'll have to have a new name now," said Todd Anderson, a construction worker, as he glanced up at the unfinished building. It will eventually rise 48 stories, making it the second-tallest tower in the area.
The sale of Wachovia bank to Citigroup Inc. has thrown this city -- obsessively proud of its status as the nation's second-leading banking center behind New York City.
Overnight, Charlotte faces the prospect of losing not just thousands of jobs but its civic identity.
"We will have to reinvent ourselves, and we will," said Hugh McColl, the legendary former leader of crosstown rival Bank of America Corp.
At One Wachovia Plaza, the bank's headquarters, a scrawling stock ticker on the front of the building listed Wachovia's stock price at "00.00."
Outside the bank's three main buildings in the central business district, bankers with Wachovia name tags nervously talked to spouses on cellphones. One employee, who asked that his name not be used, described the mood inside as dismal. "Obviously they're going to cut costs left and right," he said.
The Wachovia name, derived from "Wachau," the moniker given to North Carolina land purchased by Moravians in the 18th century, is ubiquitous here. With 20,000 workers, it is the region's second-largest employer, trailing only Carolinas HealthCare System.
Chic eateries now dot the city. At the Blue Restaurant and Bar downtown, the menu offers wild boar and roasted breast of pheasant.
The loss of Wachovia's headquarters now threatens change. Several thousand high-paying jobs are likely to vanish.
full article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122273669908488683.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
October 1, 2008, 4:51 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Charlotte
We're certainly on pins and needles over here. Right now, it's pretty much all speculation. It's a good thing that at least retail banking operations will still be headquartered here in Charlotte. I hope this unfortunate turn of events will spur city leaders to aggressively further diversify our local economy.
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