| Elements of Urbanism: Portland |
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| Thursday, 03 April 2008 | |
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Portland was founded along the banks of Oregan's Willamette River and quickly grew as a port city. In 1979, the city adopted an urban growth boundary. Since that time, a city that was more spread out than Jacksonville in 1950 is twice as dense than Jax today. STATISTICS: Portland Population 2006: 568,380 (City); 2,337,565 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1851) Jacksonville Pop. 2006: 790,689 (City); 1,277,997 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1832) City population 1950: Jacksonville (204,517); Portland (373,628)
JACKSONVILLE: URBAN RENEWAL "A three-story building originally built in the early 1900s was demolished on the western edge of Downtown, leaving several residents combing through the ruble for choice bricks.
"At 7 a.m. tomorrow, Jacksonville will implode the 10-story Rhodes-Futch-Collins Building on Main Street. The demolition is scheduled to bring the 88-year-old building crashing down in a matter of seconds, making way for construction of the new main library.
Jacksonville still struggles to understand the importance of preserving existing building stock in the urban core.
This disrespect of historical building fabric has led to the creation of a core heavily blighted by vacant overgrown lots, parking lots and isolated structures. These empty spaces severely limit Downtown's potential for pedestrian friendly vibrancy.
PORTLAND: URBAN RENEWAL Downtown Portland avoided the dark period that many U.S. urban cores went through in the 1970's and 1980's due to a master plan that DID NOT call for widespread demolition and reconstruction of existing building stock. Instead, existing building fabric was embraced and integrated into the downtown master plan. The result has been the creation of a neighborhood that contains an equal mix of old and new infill development.
JACKSONVILLE: SIDEWALKS "DDRB board members expressed discomfort with narrowing the sidewalk and even considered removing two parking spots along Laura Street to create more space." Jacksonville's planners have developed the mindset that streetscapes featuring expensive sidewalk improvements are necessary to stimulate the redevelopment of nearby property. The areas that were fairly vibrant before the streetscape projects continue to thrive, while the others that previously struggled continue to struggle. This proves that there is more to attracting businesses and pedestrians than wide sidewalks, brick pavers, fancy benches, and expensive replica light posts.
PORTLAND: SIDEWALKS In Portland, for the most part, the sidewalks are simple in design. What brings life to the street are the activities that take place on and adjacent to them. Another important aspect is the land use factor that promotes all developments to positively integrate with the sidewalks and properties adjacent to them.
JACKSONVILLE: DOWNTOWN STREETS Many of downtown's streets have the width to accommodate additional on-street parking spaces, which would benefit downtown residents, business owners, and their customers. More on-street spaces and the elimination of unneeded loading zones would decrease the need for many existing surface lots, which could be used for additional infill development.
PORTLAND: DOWNTOWN STREETS Both Portland and Jacksonville's Northbank contain compact street grids that are designed to encourage easy walking. Like Jacksonville, most of Portland's downtown streets are one-way. However, in Portland every square foot of property is utilized. This includes reducing one way streets to one lane to increase on street parking for the end user.
JACKSONVILLE: PARKING Smart Parking Meters "Better hang onto your quarters.
Jacksonville's archaic parking meters are a form of visual blight and continue to remain a negative on the push to make the Northbank core attractive to the business community and consumers.
PORTLAND: PARKING Portland is one of many cities that have installed "Smart Meters" in their central business districts. While many overlook the importance of improvements such as this, these images show there is a striking difference, with the removal of obsolete clutter. Nearby businesses also benefit from the fact that the meters are more user friendly, accepting multiple forms of payment, as opposed to only quarters.
JACKSONVILLE: URBAN BUILDING DESIGN "A motion was made by committee member William Tripp Stanly and seconded by committee member Oliver Barakat to grant conceptual approval for the medical office building for LaVilla II Partners - DRC application #2006-1, Subject to the following conditions: 1. Move the building to the right-of-way line fronting Davis Street. 2. Provide an open and inviting facade at the pedestrian level for the first floor garage, which may include windows, awnings, structural elements, marquees, overhands, or other design elements." Design Review Committee Meeting Minutes - 2/26/08
The recommendations listed above, resulted in the approval of this facade on a major corner of the downtown core. Continuing to grant approval to projects that integrate poorly with their surroundings, such as the Sax Seafood Restaurant, JTA's Laura Street TOD development and LaVilla Medical Partners (shown above) show that we still have a long way to go in understanding the ultimate importance of making our buildings interact well at street level. As a result, new projects that should go to enhancing pedestrian connectivity and urban synergy only further separate us from that goal.
PORTLAND: URBAN BUILDING DESIGN In Portland, like other compact cities, the majority of buildings take advantage of street corners by making them places of activity. If we can embrace this concept with future developments of all sizes, Jacksonville could one day enjoy this type of streetscene as well.
JACKSONVILLE: ATTRACTING DEVELOPMENT WITH MASS TRANSIT During the early 1980's, both Portland and Jacksonville were at the forefront of mass transit planning in their downtowns. Despite heavy opposition, Jacksonville proceeded with the construction of the Skyway, an expensive rubber wheeled elevated people mover. Since that time, the Skyway has been labeled a boondoggle attracting less than 3,000 riders a day, well below the 56,000 a day estimate once mentioned by local transportation planners. The Skyway even gained international attention when ABCNews featured it on their prime time World News television program in a segment called, "$200 Million Ride to Nowhere" .
PORTLAND: ATTRACTING DEVELOPMENT WITH MASS TRANSIT Portland, on the other hand, moved forward with a 15 mile starter light rail line. Since its opening in 1986, the Eastside Max has spawned over $2 billion in development and redevelopment along its route.
That blue contraption is definitely not Bus Rapid Transit. Maybe we should take note?
JACKSONVILLE: ADAPTIVE REUSE Our Northbank was once filled with unique small buildings such as the Elena Flats on East Duval Street. Today, many of these structures are considered by local leaders to be visual forms of blight that are better off demolished. The demolition of small structures like this help limit investment in the core by urban pioneers.
PORTLAND: ADAPTIVE REUSE As mentioned earlier, Portland's core avoided the downfall many of America's cities went through because of a commitment to not destroy large swaths of the core for pie in the sky urban renewal projects. Today, we can see the results of the decisions made 30 years ago. The same simple buildings we destroy on an everyday basis here, have been renovated into a wide range of uses, giving Portland's downtown a unique sense of place.
LEARNING FROM PORTLAND
Corner of Ocean & Union - Downtown Jacksonville There are many things we can learn from the trials and errors of a city like Portland. However, all of their hard work would have not paid off without planning for a future that integrated existing building stock, giving the community something to start with, as opposed to leveling everything and beginning from ground zero with a limited budget.
**-All Portland images provided by ForAteOh, a member of www.skyscraperpage.com
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April 3, 2008, 7:15 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
This needs to be changed to ...
Jacksonville FAILS to understand the importance of preserving existing building stock in the urban core.
April 3, 2008, 8:28 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Portland is the ideal city for any city in relative population and size to model. Not only do they have the city planning piece down in regard to mass transit and pedestrians, but it's been voted the most bicycle-friendly city year after year by Bicycling magazine. There's only one problem with Portland that I can see. It's wet and cold. A lot.
April 3, 2008, 8:44 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
First and last images of Portland building stock shows good example of urban art. If only our downtown signage ordinance and suburban-thinking ddrb could appreciate the place-making effect.
April 3, 2008, 9:46 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
We've done a lot of comparison articles, but this one is particularly good. It really shows how we have screwed up the idea of downtown development, yet on the other coast, Portland has a completely different mindset, and look what they have.
April 3, 2008, 10:13 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
This building actually looks like a caricature of the design guidelines for downtown. I wonder if the Design Review Board knew they were being mocked when they approved this?
Next up for approval:
April 3, 2008, 10:21 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
This would be an improvement. It properly addresses the corner and engages the sidewalk. The LaVilla project does neither.
April 3, 2008, 10:22 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Now that's a very cool looking building! I'd love to see something of that nature downtown, sure would add some character to it!
April 3, 2008, 10:31 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Yeah, it wouldn't hurt. At least it makes someone want to get out of the car or walk an extra block to see what's going on in the place. It sure beats starring at overgrown vacant lots.
April 3, 2008, 10:36 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
It just amazes me, that all the trips our city leaders have taken to other cites (and countries) that they just don't seem to 'get it' and have been knocking down old buildings that could be restored and brought back to life as something new, yet keeping the beauty of history
April 3, 2008, 1:03 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Wow. Finally a comparison of the US bike/ped Mecca. If is wasn't for the weather in Portland and the rest of the Pacific Northwest for that matter. I would have left Jacksonville along time ago for those great cites. And ironically we (Jacksonville) have had an influx of Portlanders moving here over the past couple years. The majority list the sun as their number one reason for the move.
Another major reason for the success of mass transit in Portland is that it a true functional alternative. Prior to the arrival of the new rail system in Portland. The buses arrive at every stop every 15 mins. Unlike here, JTA takes great pride if they can get a route to hit stops under an hour to a hour and half. Oh, and you can take bikes on the trains, also unlike here.
One of things I have been enjoying reading on the Portland blogs is the discussions of the building of the new I-5 bridge that crosses the Columbia River and connects Portland with Victoria Washington. They already know it will include Bike/Pedestrian access (as does the current bridge) . The big question is of whether to include rail or not. How nice would it have been to have bike/ped access with Fuller Warren connecting Riverside and San Marco? Don't you just love a city and state leaders that think?
April 3, 2008, 1:11 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
We had a chance to do something like this with the old Fuller Warren and Acosta Bridges. Unfortunately, both were torn down.
April 3, 2008, 1:47 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
The physical similarities between Portland and Jacksonville are really obvious. A similarly scaled river runs through the middle of town and is the major asset to the city's central core.
But - Jacksonville will never be Portland - and the differences are systematic and culturally ingrained...
1. Portland has a more educated population, which demands forward-thinking & innovative leadership.
2. Portland has multiple significant & well-regarded colleges and universities in it's city (Portland State, Univ. of Portland, Lewis & Clark State, Reed College, etc.) which further adds to the intellectual make-up of the city.
3. Portland emphasized environmental consideration long before it was commonplace or popular. Consequently, they have given their most valuable/sensitive land to public/civic use, and have respected the value of land by managing unfettered growth and sprawl.
4. Portland demonstrated a commitment to quality public transportation. It is a viable (desirable) option for all segments of the population through all age, income, and demographics. Great urban/suburban neighborhoods are linked to downtown by light-rail & bus (Eastmoreland, Beaverton, Gresham, etc.). This would be like Deerwood, San Jose, Riverside, Avondale, Ortega, Springfield, and Ponte Vedra being efficiently connected via light rail.
5. Portland has a respectable public educational system - not perfect.
6. Portland does not suffer from the same degree of civil rights "hangover" as is found so prevalent in the south, which manifests itself in obvious and not so obvious ways.
7. Portland has a great climate (but they'll never admit it) for outdoor recreation - and has made the public investment to promote biking in the urban environment. Refer back to #3.
8. Portland made a great commitment to urban parks - which has created positive public activity downtown, and gave the ENTIRE downtown riverfront to the public, which translated into enhanced value deeper into the downtown core.
The differences aren't about preservation of individual or a collection of individual historic buildings, or even a particular development pattern. The biggest difference is the mentality - which, unless you've lived both places - it's not possible to understand how broad the gap is...
April 3, 2008, 1:54 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
SL32205, great post. So are you assuming that unless Jacksonville's mentality changes, the dream of a vibrant downtown is a lost cause?
April 3, 2008, 2:20 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
The mentality is the place it would have to start, yes.
But, the mentality of a place is part what makes it what it is... Jacksonville is full of "southern pleasantries", shall I say - which partially make it what it is. These cultural norms would be as out of place in Portland as can be imagined.
Unless each city's history is forgotten and the south's populations were swapped with that of the northwest, I don't see a paradigm mentality shift on the horizon.
Plus, those northwesterners hate mosquitos too much to let it happen...!
April 3, 2008, 2:45 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
SL32205's post are very relevant and insightful, and the change of mentality aspect is true, but I think overstates that aspect.
Charlotte is southern, and made all the same mistakes Jacksonvile has made, and usually to a greater degree. BUT, at some point in the last decade, those at the top (politically speaking) finally started doing things right.
Finally, the powers that be "got it". They started doing the RIGHT things. They realized endless road widening and DT demolition, and ignoring the pedestrian were the WRONG things to do. They finally understood the details, the little things that mattered.
They replaced all the aforementioned with Light rail, building a residential base, creating a nightlife, embracing their uniqueness instead of running from it (ie NASACR). The difference is night and day.
The average Westside resident with a low-skill job doesn't have to understand, or even care, about all this stuff. BUT, the cities' power structure DOES.
Charleston is not particularly highly-educated, and the culture is as southern as it gets. But the man at the top 'got it' and implemented it. The very same thing has been happening here in Greenville.
The Westsider in Jacksonville (or Charlotte) or the 'Neck' shipyard worker in Charleston, or the former mill worker in Greenville, will go to their respective Downtowns, if there is 'something' to bring them there.
What matters is that the powers that be, understand how to CREATE that 'something'.
April 3, 2008, 3:35 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I was hoping to take a few pictures for metrojax during my first visit to Portland next month, but my timing's obviously off...
I've only heard great things about Portland, so I'm finally going to go see it in person first hand. Hopefully I won't be raving about it rabidly when I come back like most people, but I dont see any reason why I wouldn't like it, other than the hipper than thou vibe i've heard about
Any suggestions as to what I should check out during my short visit?
April 3, 2008, 3:38 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Vicupstate:
I haven't overstated anything. The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.
Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job? Is it true? Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated? Or sophisticated thinkers? How big is the westside? According to my map, it's huge.
Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside? How about St. Johns County? Or the northside? Or the beach...?
I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.
Charlotte hasn't thrived because of light rail, or street widths - they've thrived because of the intellectual capacity of that community (a wide cross section of the public - including but not limited to its leaders) to finance, plan, and support a renaissance. Charlotte has universities, corporate headquarters, and a much more highly educuated population.
Jacksonville has better geography. It's prettier. It has the asset of a tremendous river and beach. It should be everything Portland is - but with nice weather, a more interesting history, and a beach. It struck me that way when I moved here, and still does...
I submit that if you put Jacksonville's population - all of it - in Portland, they wouldn't live, act, and make of the city what Portland does - and in ten years it would probably look a whole lot different than Portland does now. Most likely not for the good.
April 3, 2008, 4:23 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
To me leadership at the top is the key. We were headed in the right direction with Delaney (even though I didn't agree with every single thing that happened under his watch), then we did something incredibly stupid - elect John Peyton. The urban areas in my opinion have retracted under him (and I don't want to hear about the real estate collapse causing the problem - that's a load of crap)
With decent leadership, the insane questions that come out of DDRB would not happen. With decent leadership, we wouldn't be demolishing a 107 year old building because the owners let it fall it to the ground and the city watched it happen. With decent leadership, getting decent lighting and signage would be possible.
While I would agree that an educated workforce would probably see the light in the stupidity that we have here, but we have what we have for the next few years. UNF is not going to turn into Georgia Tech, but could serve as a great educational institution for the city.
April 3, 2008, 7:40 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I haven't overstated anything. The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.
Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job? Is it true? Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated? Or sophisticated thinkers? How big is the westside? According to my map, it's huge.
Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside? How about St. Johns County? Or the northside? Or the beach...?
I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.
My point was that education or income level is NOT the determining factor of a city's ability to create a truly vibrant, successful urban environment. Jacksonville is less blue collar/ working class than Charleston, yet there is no comparision between the two in terms of historic preservation, downtown renaissance, density, etc.
Charlotte had all of those things when it's downtown sucked, and they were tearing down every building over ten years old too. The difference now is that the power brokers in business and government LEARNED the right way to REBUILD the urban fabric and create density and places that residents want to go to. They realized it took more than tall buildings to create an urban environment.
I couldn't agree more. The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there. The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance. Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted.
I submit that the leadership of any city is the key thing. 5-10 years ago in Jacksonville, things were happening, private investors were drawn in, there was an ENERGY of change in the air. The city had goals, like pulling off a great Super Bowl. That's gone now. The general population of the city didn't change to any significant degree, but the leadership did.
April 4, 2008, 8:14 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
We were out in Portland last summer on vacation--there were a lot of positives but then again we were there in July (the only sunny month of the year, I think). One thing that Jacksonville beats Portland hands down on is fireworks. We went to the Portland 4th of July fireworks display and it was such a let down. (I also was turned off by the unsupervised children waving around sprinklers right near crowds of people.) Jacksonville has better fireworks during a regular baseball game. I know many people, including me, think that our city overdoes the fireworks thing, but they are fun.
We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland. To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.
April 5, 2008, 12:07 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
But - Jacksonville will never be Portland - and the differences are systematic and culturally ingrained...
April 5, 2008, 10:37 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I couldn't agree more. The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there. The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance. Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted
I disagree on these points that seem a "given" to others here. Better geography means what? In the South as opposed to the Northwest? We are the land gateway of Florida, as Portland is the gateway to Oregon and California from the east-west routes that trailed west from Chicago. East and West of the City of Portland the mountains touch the clouds, so it makes sense that all traffic, business and money goes through Portland. As for as long range geography, many international flights call at PDX because of it's closeness to the Pacific Rim countries.
Jacksonville is prettier? Again, that's very subjective. Standing at Portland Union Station and looking to the east at the snow cap peaks of Mount Hood and the Sisters, the broad Columbia River where it meets the Wilamette and the billions of roses, ferns and fir trees, one would question that statement. Beach? Just down the road at Astoria, and Rooster Rock. Portland's history is also pretty cool, with Lewis and Clark and the Oregon Trail, Opium wars, China slave trade and a network of underground pubs, bordellos and Shanghi Prisons, 99.9% of which are still standing. Oregon is pro rail and pro enviroment, meaning the Union Station was never turned into the "Union Pacific Officer Convention Center" as ours was.
Weather, okay, here you could be onto something. I've never seen a July afternoon in Portland where I was in a tee shirt and shorts and ringing wet with sweat... just doesn't happen. The 5 years I spent in Portland the summer kept falling on weekends and most of us slept in and missed it. But there is also something to be said for cool weather year around... Seldom bone cold, due to the Japan current in the sea, but almost always overcast and rainy cool.
Portland has one huge urban engine that we seem to have missed... our "better geography" isn't better. Portland is a City IN the Cascade Mountains. As such it has many neighborhoods that follow narrow canyons. This tends to force development into narrow corridors, making things very dense.
Portland does have one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned. The famed Oregon "un-greetings"... Signs at the border that say... Thank you for visiting Oregon, we hope you enjoyed your visit, please don't come back! On the South exit was a state sign that read... "Please don't Californicate Oregon." Even a line of un-greeting cards... my favorite... "un-greetings from Oregon, last year in Portland 5,214 people fell off their bicycles and drowned..." You want to match hillbilliy's with the "highly educated" Pacific Northwest? No, they have as many tobbacco spitting loggers and mountain men as we have swampers. Maybe more. The trick in rural Oregon is being able to go to the country WITHOUT being taken out by a log truck.
I think you would find Portland as the last gasp of the hippie's "back to the land" movement in America, call it whatever you want but the same FREEBIRD that took flight here, soars over Portland.
Ocklawaha
April 5, 2008, 2:37 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Also, Portland residents, like those of seattle have a very public conversation about 'quality of life'
Basically the majority of people are having active conversations like the ones on this webpage.
April 6, 2008, 12:31 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland. To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.
Kathryn - Seattle is a better tourist town than Portland, it's bigger and has many great things to do and see. It also has terrible traffic through town and to the suburbs and has become much more congested. Many consider Portland more "livable"...
April 7, 2008, 10:11 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
We also were in Seattle, which I actually liked much better than Portland. To me it had a better vibe and more to do as a tourist.
You're right on about Jacksonville's fireworks. Our city really knows how to wow the masses with the biggest and loudests shows around, sometimes for no apparent reason!
April 7, 2008, 11:26 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
And apparently Jason, wait till this year's 4th of July.
Its supposed to be shock and awe.
This year there are plans to close the main street bridge off and allow people to watch from there.
April 7, 2008, 11:41 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
The problem is we've come to view our downtown as a non-self sustaining events mecca. Kind of like a big circus or county fair. When the clock strikes midnight, everyone packs their bags and go, leaving only tumbleweeds and vagrants behind. The events are nice, but they should be an accessory to a self sustaining urban neighborhood, not the other way around. This is where our challenge lies.
April 7, 2008, 2:18 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
^ You don't like fireworks do you Lake...
April 7, 2008, 2:38 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I love them but I'd trade them in a heartbeat for a vibrant downtown.
April 7, 2008, 3:28 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Just pokin' fun at ya Lake.
I always get there early and leave late. You almost have to get there early to get a good seat outside at Hooters and then have to leave late to wait out the rush. Walking around downtown and riding the skyway back to Kings Ave station also helps to walk off the pitchers of beer and chicken wings and hopefully recover some of your hearing!
April 8, 2008, 12:27 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I haven't overstated anything. The fact that you have stereotyped the "westside" residents as you have validates my point about the intellectual and cultural divide that exists between the Pacific Northwest and the South.
Why is the "average westside resident" stereotyped to have a low paying job? Is it true? Are they described as low paying because they aren't educated? Or sophisticated thinkers? How big is the westside? According to my map, it's huge.
Would a public bus full of a random cross section of people only from the westside have a different "feel" from a bus full of people from the southside? How about St. Johns County? Or the northside? Or the beach...?
I'd guess if you answered the question honestly, you'd say yes.
My point was that education or income level is NOT the determining factor of a city's ability to create a truly vibrant, successful urban environment. Jacksonville is less blue collar/ working class than Charleston, yet there is no comparision between the two in terms of historic preservation, downtown renaissance, density, etc.
Charlotte had all of those things when it's downtown sucked, and they were tearing down every building over ten years old too. The difference now is that the power brokers in business and government LEARNED the right way to REBUILD the urban fabric and create density and places that residents want to go to. They realized it took more than tall buildings to create an urban environment.
I couldn't agree more. The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there. The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance. Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted.
I submit that the leadership of any city is the key thing. 5-10 years ago in Jacksonville, things were happening, private investors were drawn in, there was an ENERGY of change in the air. The city had goals, like pulling off a great Super Bowl. That's gone now. The general population of the city didn't change to any significant degree, but the leadership did.
Vicupstate:
Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown. Or name a city which has comparable crime statistics which has a vibrant, active downtown? I would submit that downtown Charleston is largely comprised of an affluent, educated population - if you consider The Battery downtown, which I would. Also, the College of Charleston & The Citadel, have a greater influence on the urban activity of Charleston than UNF or JU do in Jacksonville. I don't think the facts support your claims on Jacksonville's behalf.
Again, I suggest that the leadership is a reflection of the constituency it serves - perhaps in Charlotte & Portland. But it's the characteristic of an active public that respects "community" and values "quality of life" that supports that renaissance. Jacksonville's rank & file population, in my observation, has a largely parochial view toward many quality of life elements that Portland and I suspect Charlotte hold sacred.
Perhaps I overstated Jacksonville's geographic quality. Certainly the river is a great asset, and the weather is generally good. The city's built environment is an embarassment, especially downtown, when compared with Portland. Is it a result of bad leadership? Perhaps - but not singularly. The leadership is a reflection on the population. Mayor Peyton ran essentially unopposed, correct?
Speaking of Portland and leadership? Can you name the past few mayors of Portland? Were they popular? Were they effective? Mayor Riley and Mayor Daley are rare, and have created an aura partially through self-promotion, partially because they demonstrated leadership, and this has been possible because they haven't been subjected to term limits. They are, in effect, benevolent dictators. I will submit that whatever Portland is or has is a reflection on the nature of their residents their leaders serve.
I'm telling you - the culture (or mindset), and associate priorities is completely different.
April 8, 2008, 12:37 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I couldn't agree more. The potential for Jax to 'blow away' Charlotte and Portland, and many major cities is definitely there. The problem is, the local leadership doesn't appreciate what is here, nor do they understand good urban design or what is necessary to achieve a DT renaissance. Until they do, the city's tremendous potential goes wasted
I disagree on these points that seem a "given" to others here. Better geography means what? In the South as opposed to the Northwest? We are the land gateway of Florida, as Portland is the gateway to Oregon and California from the east-west routes that trailed west from Chicago. East and West of the City of Portland the mountains touch the clouds, so it makes sense that all traffic, business and money goes through Portland. As for as long range geography, many international flights call at PDX because of it's closeness to the Pacific Rim countries.
Jacksonville is prettier? Again, that's very subjective. Standing at Portland Union Station and looking to the east at the snow cap peaks of Mount Hood and the Sisters, the broad Columbia River where it meets the Wilamette and the billions of roses, ferns and fir trees, one would question that statement. Beach? Just down the road at Astoria, and Rooster Rock. Portland's history is also pretty cool, with Lewis and Clark and the Oregon Trail, Opium wars, China slave trade and a network of underground pubs, bordellos and Shanghi Prisons, 99.9% of which are still standing. Oregon is pro rail and pro enviroment, meaning the Union Station was never turned into the "Union Pacific Officer Convention Center" as ours was.
Weather, okay, here you could be onto something. I've never seen a July afternoon in Portland where I was in a tee shirt and shorts and ringing wet with sweat... just doesn't happen. The 5 years I spent in Portland the summer kept falling on weekends and most of us slept in and missed it. But there is also something to be said for cool weather year around... Seldom bone cold, due to the Japan current in the sea, but almost always overcast and rainy cool.
Portland has one huge urban engine that we seem to have missed... our "better geography" isn't better. Portland is a City IN the Cascade Mountains. As such it has many neighborhoods that follow narrow canyons. This tends to force development into narrow corridors, making things very dense.
Portland does have one huge drawback that hasn't been mentioned. The famed Oregon "un-greetings"... Signs at the border that say... Thank you for visiting Oregon, we hope you enjoyed your visit, please don't come back! On the South exit was a state sign that read... "Please don't Californicate Oregon." Even a line of un-greeting cards... my favorite... "un-greetings from Oregon, last year in Portland 5,214 people fell off their bicycles and drowned..." You want to match hillbilliy's with the "highly educated" Pacific Northwest? No, they have as many tobbacco spitting loggers and mountain men as we have swampers. Maybe more. The trick in rural Oregon is being able to go to the country WITHOUT being taken out by a log truck.
I think you would find Portland as the last gasp of the hippie's "back to the land" movement in America, call it whatever you want but the same FREEBIRD that took flight here, soars over Portland.
Ocklawaha
Oklawaha:
Let me correct you - Portland sits in the confluence of the Columbia and Willamette River valley's, and is hardly "in" the Cascade Mountains. Granted, the west hills of Portland, toward Beaverton, are hilly - it is hardly mountainous. Many outlying area's are easily developable rural or agricultuaral pasture land, but are not developed in a suburban pattern due to the Urban Growth Boundary. It is this boundary that has influenced the enhanced density in the city center.
The logging history of the northwest has faded - and has been replaced with a very innovative, progressive culture. The "southern" and "redneck" culture of Jacksonville has not faded as quickly.
April 8, 2008, 12:38 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
But - Jacksonville will never be Portland - and the differences are systematic and culturally ingrained...
I hope you are right. I think Jacksonville has more unrealized potential than almost any city I know of.
April 8, 2008, 12:41 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Basically the majority of people are having active conversations like the ones on this webpage.
That's an interesting observation - and true.
If you asked the majority of people "how do you define quality of life", I suspect the answers from Portland residents would be much different than Jacksonville residents.
April 8, 2008, 12:43 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
The fundamental framework to support quality of life downtown doesn't exist for it to be self-sustaining, or anything beyond a temporary events venue. The physcial basics aren't in place - and neither is the mindset of the community.
April 8, 2008, 6:55 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
The community mindset may not be there, but I believe the physical basics are there to begin to turn things around. If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, Orlando or Greenville, all originally with less physical basics than we enjoy today, then I don't think its a lost cause.
April 8, 2008, 9:48 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Vicupstate:
Please name one city which has a comparatively uneducated population which has a vibrant, active downtown.
For starters there is Cleveland. I don't know much about Indianapolis' education and income levels, but I don't get the idea that it is above the national norm, and their DT is doing great and it the central focus of there city, which like Jax is large and consolidated.
A generation ago Pittsburgh was blue-collar steel town, it is the opposite today.
Charleston in the late '70's was not affluent at all, even downtown. Today, the metro as a whole is VERY comparable to Jacksonville in terms of income and education. Many of the affluent of DT Charleston are not permanent residents anyway. While Charelston proper has a modest crime level and has for years, it's northern white-flight-suburb-turn-new-'hood (North Charelston) has one of the highest crime rates in the US.
Ditto regarding getting a Farmer's Market DT. Ditto regarding building Riverside Avenue into a pedestrian-compatible boulevard instead of a freeway. Ditto regardng getting smart Parking meters or more signage or doing something CONSTRUCTIVE with the Mian St. pocket park.
Again, I suggest that the leadership is a reflection of the constituency it serves - perhaps in Charlotte & Portland. But it's the characteristic of an active public that respects "community" and values "quality of life" that supports that renaissance. Jacksonville's rank & file population, in my observation, has a largely parochial view toward many quality of life elements that Portland and I suspect Charlotte hold sacred.
LEADERSHIP is not being a weather vane of public will. It is having a vision and pursing it.
Perhaps I overstated Jacksonville's geographic quality. Certainly the river is a great asset, and the weather is generally good. The city's built environment is an embarassment, especially downtown, when compared with Portland. Is it a result of bad leadership? Perhaps - but not singularly. The leadership is a reflection on the population. Mayor Peyton ran essentially unopposed, correct?
The NATURAL geographic quality of Jax is great. You didn't overstate that, but it isn't the be-all-end-all either. The quality of life and built environments matter to, perhaps more.
Speaking of Portland and leadership? Can you name the past few mayors of Portland? Were they popular? Were they effective? Mayor Riley and Mayor Daley are rare, and have created an aura partially through self-promotion, partially because they demonstrated leadership, and this has been possible because they haven't been subjected to term limits. They are, in effect, benevolent dictators. I will submit that whatever Portland is or has is a reflection on the nature of their residents their leaders serve.
I'm telling you - the culture (or mindset), and associate priorities is completely different.
I don't know who is or has been the mayor of Portland, but I do know that Jax does things every day that would NEVER be done in Portland. Creating new surface lots in the core of DT would be just the tip of that iceburg.
Charlotte's DT got it act together under the 14 years of current mayor Pat McCrory. Before him, it was following the Jax model and getting nowhere in terms of vibracy DT. McCrory is running for Governor now. Even if he wins and leaves the mayor's office, the change in the DT development mindset is permanent now. The city staffers, the business leaders, the city council, the city manager, they all get it now. They understand the ingredients for a true 24/7 urban environment.
The bottom line is Jacksonville does not have to 'trade out' it's population or get everyone a bacholor's degree. It really just requires leadership from the top. That's the missing element.
April 8, 2008, 10:18 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Other cities would include San Antonio, Savannah, Norfolk, Grand Rapids and Memphis. Even Detroit is rapidly turning things around, centered around a downtown that is now 20 times as vibrant than the local scene we've grown to accept today. Led by a mayor who was screwing his Chief of Staff with public money.
April 8, 2008, 10:27 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Other than the river, and some historic development, I disagree that the physcal basics are there. The working riverfront has been "sold", rather than being given to the public realm as has been done in cities such as Portland or Louisville. A narrow ribbon of "Riverwalk" doesn't count as quality public space. Public services such as the police headquarters and jail have become entrenched in locations which bifurcate the riverfront from the CBD. There isn't quality open space/civic space to build upon, and the "social services" for those in need and homeless are completely concentrated in the same location that is wanting to be revitalized. All of these "basics" need to be fixed in order to be "there".
And - let's just say the physical basics were there. If the mindset isn't, does it matter?
I don't think it's a lost cause - but I think the limited vision, and the narrow culture of much of Jacksonville's population will keep it from resembling Portland. It is what it is - but I'm hopeful that "enlightenment" will find it's day.
April 8, 2008, 10:53 am
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Other than the river, and some historic development, I disagree that the physcal basics are there. The working riverfront has been "sold", rather than being given to the public realm as has been done in cities such as Portland or Louisville. A narrow ribbon of "Riverwalk" doesn't count as quality public space. Public services such as the police headquarters and jail have become entrenched in locations which bifurcate the riverfront from the CBD. There isn't quality open space/civic space to build upon, and the "social services" for those in need and homeless are completely concentrated in the same location that is wanting to be revitalized. All of these "basics" need to be fixed in order to be "there".
I think that's where we make a mistake locally by isolating downtown from the rest of the core neighborhoods. Yes, we have the river, but we also have a huge +1 mile long public space along Hogans Creek, that merges downtown with Springfield. Its only 12 short blocks north of the riverfront. We have vibrant urban activity in areas like Five Points, San Marco and even the Farmer's Market on Beaver Street, that are roughly one mile from the heart of the Northbank CBD. While there is no huge place of higher learning in the core, we do have Edward Waters and FCCJ, both of which we still fail to take advantage of. The bones to establish a vibrant core are still there, we just have to learn how to make the parts work and one of the first steps in doing that is realizing that the Northbank's ultimate success relies on physically restoring the connectivity with it and the nearby neighborhoods that was purposefully cut off in the mid-to-late 20th century.
I think the mindset is there. It just has to grow at city hall.
I don't think the goal of Jacksonville should be to resemble Portland. I would hope we could learn to look at the things they have had success in implementing and possibly apply some of the techniques locally in a manner that creates a unique Jacksonville-style urban core, just like Charleston and Savannah have done. Both don't resemble Portland, but they have discovered a way to create a vibrant urban core that preserves their unique local culture.
April 8, 2008, 12:11 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Other cities would include San Antonio, Savannah, Norfolk, Grand Rapids and Memphis. Even Detroit is rapidly turning things around, centered around a downtown that is now 20 times as vibrant than the local scene we've grown to accept today. Led by a mayor who was screwing his Chief of Staff with public money.
How could I forget : Baltimore
Very blue collar, low income, and HIGH crime. Yet there Downtown is a national model.
April 8, 2008, 2:13 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
While I think the education level helps (Atlanta would not be the economic power it is without Georgia Tech), I don't think that's the only factor. Furthermore, I think good leadership can overcome that (to a point), and challenge the educational facilities in town to strive to become a contributor to the city.
A partnership is a two way street. To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships. Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship. On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.
On a side note, Peyton might have to stick out one hell of an olive brach to Delaney after Delaney has had to listen to Peyton blame him for the courthouse cost overruns five years after he left City Hall
BTW, this is a great debate
April 8, 2008, 3:06 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Gee, it would be nice if we had a town/gown partnership here.
April 8, 2008, 3:45 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
A partnership is a two way street. To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships. Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship. On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.
it's about much more than that. leadership first, is about influence. and peyton has none because a) had no real experience to speak of before he came on the job and b) has failed to produce as mayor while on the job now. look at those cities that are not defined by relationships with universities - like Charlotte - UNCC is there, but the city has no really strong bond with the uni. also, take Columbia, SC - it has Columbia Bible College & USC - Columbia, but the city's leader is not defined by how he is partnering with the unis.
i agree...great debate!
April 8, 2008, 4:19 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
A partnership is a two way street. To me, leading a city is about public-private partnerships. Atlanta and Georgia Tech seem to have a very good relationship. On the other hand, I haven't seen Peyton reaching out to Delaney at UNF or Romesburg at JU much to encourage public-private partnerships between the universitites and the government.
On a side note, Peyton might have to stick out one hell of an olive brach to Delaney after Delaney has had to listen to Peyton blame him for the courthouse cost overruns five years after he left City Hall
BTW, this is a great debate
I wonder if Delaney has retracted his endorsement of Peyton?
I'd love to see Delaney back in office, but I really doubt he would leave his sweet job with UNF.
April 8, 2008, 4:28 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
What endorsement? Delaney didn't endorse anyone in the Mayoral Election. He did say that he would endorse Rick Mullaney, and then two days later Mullaney decides not to run.
April 8, 2008, 4:30 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
What endorsement? Delaney didn't endorse anyone in the Mayoral Election. He did say that he would endorse Rick Mullaney, and then two days later Mullaney decides not to run.
not endorsement, but he has never criticized him when everyone else on the planet has. also, we've seen the hunky dory emails he has sent him where he's all like "it'll be ok, you're doing a great job".
April 8, 2008, 4:32 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
I don't mean to pan on Jacksonville - but the reality is that it is less educated, more racially, demographically, and economically divided than any other city I'm aware of. There is an "us" and a "they" mentality in Jacksonville, depending upon where you are in town. It's counter to a collective vision where all accepted and come together downtown - if a vibrant downtown is the comparative discussion here with Portland.
I observe a "cocooning" culture in Jacksonville, where priority leans toward individual benefit and outweighs community benefit. The ideas of "community", "quality of life", "environment", "innovation", etc. don't seem held in as high esteem in the decision-making process. These ideas are reflected in how people live - and in how leaders lead. Consumerism is high - and the idea of "commodity" rules conventional wisdom. Jacksonville has largely sold the quality of it's riverfront because it has the "highest value". Extending the riverwalk south is an issue because of "our property rights", and "those people" would come between "me" and the river. "We" want to pull water from the St. Johns River to support "our" population. It's pervasive - amongst the population and the leadership - and it is an attitude not widely found in a place such as Portland.
I agree with the lack of leadership - but again, wasn't Peyton re-elected almost without effective opposition? If he was as ineffective as everyone has claimed following Delaney, shouldn't there have been a call for his head by the majority. Why wasn't there? I submit it's because the issues that are discussed in this topic aren't seen as important by the majority of the Jacksonville public. To generalize - those on the southside, or beaches, or St. Johns County (that's a lot of people) are in their "cocoon". They don't care about downtown redevelopment, other than it might be a neat novelty - and they want to tailgate safely and get home from the Jaguar games as quickly as possible. They don't care about the homeless, they'd as well have them stay in "their area". As long as they have education for "their" kids, all is well. You see, it's the public attitudes of the "masses" that spawns leadership - and Jacksonville (and perhaps the south, in general) has a foreign culture to the norm in the pacific northwest. Innovative leadership in this culture will run counter to these cultural norms, and may not be widely popular - but I think it's necessary.
April 8, 2008, 4:36 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland
Thank you for your post SL. I think many of your ideas are right on and well-spoken. Thank you again for sharing.
April 8, 2008, 4:40 pm
Re: Elements of Urbanism: Portland