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Homeless Are The Paramount End User of Downtown Print E-mail
Tuesday, 01 April 2008

Downtown's Most Important Consumer and a strategy of misplaced priorities that must be overcome in order to make downtown viable again.

Somewhere along the way, panhandlers, bums, homeless people and the mentally ill have become the most important consumer of downtown. 

Far and away the most important.

 This is not just limited to the number of service providers and facilities set up to serve the needs of or house the most unfortunate level of our society.  (click here: http://www.eshcnet.org/Resource_Guide.htm for a list of over 70 providers for services, the overwhelming majority of which are located downtown)  Even putting aside the Sulzbacher Center, the Trinity Mission, the Clara White Mission, the salvation army clinics, the numerous labor force outfits and the five major Faith Based feeding programs in the downtown.   Putting aside even the Duval County Jail which houses a huge population of the homeless who are arrested for public urination, trespassing, and panhandling.  Even leaving out of the equation the number of halfway and recovery group homes (an additional 40 in the urban core) whose clients are many times interchangeable with the At-Risk and At-Needs community.

Nearly every business, organization, event, and urban planning project must give them major consideration before they proceed---no matter how unconnected or widely divergent the purpose might seem from serving the homeless and mentally ill.   Even Public Transit and Library Services must build in a process for dealing with their related issues - often to the exclusion of all other customers.

The reader must be asking themselves how this could be possible?

Any downtown end user can easily tick off the numbers of ways without blinking:

1. The business owners and staff must come in early in order to clean human feces and urine from their doorsteps.  

2.  Any group of students has to be led past bands of panhandlers before they can arrive at their field trip destinations - unless dropped off at the front door or care is taken in planning their route. 

3.  The restaurants impose 'customers only' rules to prevent their bathrooms from being used as showers by the street people.  (because of the high level of mental illness, there is a palpable threat to the plumbing as underwear and disintegrating clothing is stuffed down toilet drains, and feces is regularly smeared on walls.)  link here for the TU version of Jerry Moran's knothead story

4.  None of the many free amenities downtown such as the Trolley service carry signs advertising the products as 'free' in order to discourage the street people from using and monopolizing services.

5.  The Library Bathrooms on all four floors, during almost the entire day, are filled with people showering, shaving and clogging the air with an almost unbearable stench.

6.  Because of the high incidence of criminal pathology and mental illness, the Library also has to maintain a separate list of convicted child molesters and sexual predators and keep their photos posted in order to protect the children who are coming in on a daily basis. 

7.  There are almost no outdoor seating cafes in the downtown because of the incredibly aggressive panhandling that takes place at tableside whenever such ventures are attempted.

 

8.  The Landing, and many other businesses have requested that all park benches be removed in order to prevent the inevitable sleeping, urination and congregating that occurs with bands of panhandlers.

9.  Thousands of customers over the years have been frightened away by the sheer numbers of the panhandlers demanding money, food, or beer.

10.  In extreme cases, the mentally ill are left to defecate on the sidewalk in broad daylight as captured by Jerry Moran of La Cena in his infamous YouTube video.

 

The list could go on and on.  As it grows one becomes aware of a very clear fact. Between all of the agencies serving, helping, and advertising for the needs of the homeless/mentally ill/street community and all of the counter programming that takes place by the rest of the downtown communities, the homeless have become the paramount customer in the central city.    

The obvious (and answered) question is How?...  The better question is to ask Why. 

It is a question that we will return to in a moment.  The answer is appalling and the solution is quite simple.

 But first, we must question the wisdom of letting the near hysterical anti homeless crusade become the defining philosophy of Downtown.  After all, there are some downsides to consider.

 First there is the folly of the merchant's pursuing a campaign of driving away the homeless by making them so physically and emotionally uncomfortable that they are forced to leave.

In the past year alone:

The merchants have demanded that all parks downtown be closed to the public at sundown.  One of them  patrols at dusk to make sure that the parks are empty.

The merchants are demanding that all of downtown be put under 24 hour surveillance in order to prevent the property crimes committed by the homeless at night.

Most of the public bathrooms have been closed to prevent the homeless from using them.

 

The merchants have demanded the closing of all stores that sell beer or alcohol downtown in an attempt to keep the street people from drinking and then peeing on the buildings. 

Merchants have blocked the installation of water fountains and outdoor public bathrooms in order to prevent their use by the homeless. 

And of course, as already mentioned, even the Park Benches along the riverwalk and down the historic streets are being removed in order to prevent the Homeless from sleeping on them.

 These are pretty drastic steps to be taking.  And think about the effects of such policies.

Very simply, anyone who comes downtown will have the same physical and aesthetic needs as the homeless people that the Downtowners are trying to get rid of.

 What makes the homeless people uncomfortable will make paying customers uncomfortable as well.

As it is, a mother of three who decided to come downtown with her children and a perhaps even another family from down the block would find themselves in a downtown where there is no where to sit and rest for a moment without taking all of the kids into a restaurant.

If the four year old needed to go to a bathroom, they would have to hotfoot it down to the landing, or over to the Library, where they would have to stand in line behind all the homeless guys who are also trying to use the only nice public bathrooms downtown.

A group of four young ladies from the Southside are out walking from a party at the Art Museum and they stroll through one of the parks, a little rowdy from cocktails consumed at JMOCA.  It would be an automatic recipe for a night in jail for trespassing in the park. 

Secondly there is the very nature of human nature and the perils of government surveillance.  Aside from the privacy issues, which are extremely important, consider the practical downside of average recreational behavior amongst twenty and thirty somethings.

Drinking in the parking lot, making out on a deserted street, the ocaissional smoking of leaf other than tobacco.  These are part and parcel of our culture.  They are also grounds for arrest if the energy isnt right.   It wouldn't take but a few arrests arising from this type of surveillance before Downtown would be considered a bad idea to go entertain one's self in. Perhaps this isn't a politically correct point of view, but it is nevertheless a realistic one. 

No, No, and again NO.  This approach is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Except that downtown hasn't even been able to throw out the bathwater.  The numbers of street people in downtown remain remarkably steady because downtown is where all of the service providers are.

Now let us take up the question of why the street people have turned into such a powerful force in downtown.

The basic problem seems to be the conflict between what the homeless people need in order to survive and the need of the businesses and institutions to also survive and prosper.  In the present circumstances, these two goals are mutually exclusive in the same place.

This basic formulation has caused the bitterness, hysteria and incomprehensibly self destructive moves on the part of the downtown community.

But they result from some very simple underlying policies.  To date, no one is willing to budge on matters of philosophy in order to solve the conflict.

Here are the philosophies and the problems that they create.

Policy/Philosophy 1

  No one should get a free ride and every able bodied person should attempt to work. 

Outcome 1

Hundreds of Street People baking in the sun with nothing to do. 

People who are sleeping in the shelters are not allowed to simply 'hang out all day'.   The most likely source of work for a street person is the labor work pools.  They pick up workers at 5 to 530 am.

In order to force people to be out of the shelters in time to make the labor pool pickups, everyone is tossed into the street at 4:30 AM.

They are not allowed back in the shelters until the evening.  Not to use the bathroom, not to take a shower.  Not to simply take a break.

This means that during all available business hours, the homeless staying in the private shelters are forced to take the streets.  Because of the location of the shelters and lack of transportation, none of them are able to go anywhere else but the downtown environment.  This forces them into the business district during business hours.

Policy/Philosophy 2

Any public facility such as bathrooms or water fountains will be destroyed or worse by the homeless and therefore should not be built.

This idea has some background.  Historically, many of the downtown bathrooms were built underground and left unsupervised.  They became havens for crime.  They were all shut down due to public outcry.

 Outcome 2

All of Downtown has become a toilet

There are extremely few public facilities to use, and by the time most of downtown starts to come alive at 9am, the street people have not had access to either water or a bathroom in 4 hours.   By the time the library opens at 10, it has been 5 hours.

Like most places downtown The Library has hundreds of trespassing warrants against the street people, banning them from entering the building.  This does not prevent the hundreds who are allowed in to use the bathrooms for basic hygiene.

Everyone else either has to hold it the entire 12 hours, or they use the bathroom outside.  Hence all the human waste in the bushes and on the doorsteps. 

 

Policy/Philosophy 3

Anything that gives street people a reason or excuse to be downtown and any source of comfort must be removed immediately

Outcome 3 

Downtown has become a forbidding environment for all end users and recreational visitors.  No bathrooms, no benches, no ledges along buildings to sit on, no water fountains, no hanging out in the parks at night. 

 

Policy/Philosophy 4 

The police and/or criminal prosecution is the best way to deal with the problems surrounding the street people. 

Outcome 4

On the table right now are proposals which would completely sacrifice privacy of any sort downtown and install police surveillance everywhere downtown. The merchants and residents have demanded and gotten additional police coverage and the police are filling the jails up with repeat offenders who are getting arrested, released, rearrested, re-released and so on at enormous expense to the taxpayers and no end of unfairness to the street people themselves.  Never mind the net effect that the jail has become a bit of a homeless shelter in the process, instead of a detention center for people awaiting court or serving time. 

Solutions 

Build a no frills day center away from the center of downtown that has bathrooms, where there are books, phones and basic plumbing for showers.  Center all of the not for profit and faith based donations at said day center so that there is an incentive for the street people to migrate there on a daily basis.   Coordinate the center with the Job Junctions programs.   Anytime there is a complaint from the rest of the downtown community about panhandling or other nonsense, direct the officers to drop them off at the day center rather than taking them to jail unless it becomes necessary.

Encourage labor pools with a later start time to stop by the day center.   Encourage the various organizations downtown to select volunteers from the day center to help clean up before and after events.

A day center alone would alleviate a huge amount of the problems.  People object to the extreme odors associated with the homeless.  Available showers and donated clothing would take care of that and alleviate the burden currently being forced upon the Downtown Library.

People object to the sheer amount of human waste deposited on the streets every morning.  working toilets would take care of that.

Reinstall the basic public furniture that appeals to recreational users downtown, including public bathrooms that most major cities have.

 There is no foreseeable future in which the special needs community can be separated from the Downtown totally.  Although this is a strategy that should be immediately started.  Along with Municipal landbanking and the multitudinous churches downtown there is altogether too much property that is off the tax rolls.  However a day center as described would be the cheapest and easiest solution for all parties concerned.  

 
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>> 134 Comments
JeffreyS
April 1, 2008, 7:51 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Where should we put the day center? I think this is a cause we should try to rally the MJ community to pressure our leaders to make some changes. 

Do we have examples of successful day centers from other cities? Should we pressure some of the service providers to move?



adamh0903
April 1, 2008, 8:34 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.
Beloki
April 1, 2008, 8:34 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

This really is a problem. I have friends come over from Holland all the time and I always take them downtown for a walk but everytime we are asked:"can you spare a dollar" at least 4 or 5 times. It becomes annoying and embarrasing. We should come up with another place where we can accomodate these people.
zoo
April 1, 2008, 8:40 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Jacksonville doesn't want to hear this, and it appears even MetroJacksonville.com has felt the social/political pressure to sugar-coat the truth, but the 3 underlying causes of this city's downtown vagrancy problem are:

1. 5 decades of NIMBY-ism -- for 50 years everybody lived in the suburbs, so downtown became the best location for all social service facilities. This nimby-ism still exists, but as popularity, convenience and common sense of urban living grows, it is slowly reversing.

2. Jacksonville's geographic location on the major N/S route on the eastern seaboard (I-95), and at the end of a major E/W route (I-10). Has anyone else noticed that our transient population grows during Spring and Fall when they are traveling to and from the most climatically favorable places to camp?

3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".

Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.
adamh0903
April 1, 2008, 9:01 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Jacksonville doesn't want to hear this, and it appears even MetroJacksonville.com has felt the social/political pressure to sugar-coat the truth, but the 3 underlying causes of this city's downtown vagrancy problem are:

1. 5 decades of NIMBY-ism -- for 50 years everybody lived in the suburbs, so downtown became the best location for all social service facilities. This nimby-ism still exists, but as popularity, convenience and common sense of urban living grows, it is slowly reversing.

2. Jacksonville's geographic location on the major N/S route on the eastern seaboard (I-95), and at the end of a major E/W route (I-10). Has anyone else noticed that our transient population grows during Spring and Fall when they are traveling to and from the most climatically favorable places to camp?

3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".

Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.

Wow, we get knocked for being intolerant, then we get knocked for being to kind and caring, and what does "hit them to hard in their theology" mean? Its not my nature to take a discussion here, you will never find me forcing my beliefs on anyone, its not my job, but I am a christian, even a southern baptist minister, even though I havent "worked" for a church in a few years.
JeffreyS
April 1, 2008, 9:22 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".

Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.

The churches will jump on board if there is a good place to center the day time life of the homeless. This will make it easier for Christian and other services to be done. As long as it is not a blight we are subjecting people to Christians will jump for joy at this.  They help the homeless downtown because that is where they are. This is a bad policy, for reasons already explained on this thread, but it is not some feeling that God's work can only be done in downtown.

If you need to take a cheap shot at Christians or others for helping people try to come up with something reasonable. Saying that Christians guilt insists that homeless people panhandle and poop on the street is mean spirited and dumb to the point of being pathetic. 
zoo
April 1, 2008, 9:42 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Adam, glad someone was brave, or crazy, enough to reply to my pot-stirring post.

As I said, I do not believe that Christianity alone is the cause of the problem. It is Christianity coupled with the other two factors.

We can't do anything about geographic location.

Nimby-ism can be changed. But not without looking hard at the Christianity issue. "I want to be a good Christian, but I don't want to have to look at those less fortunate in my surroundings regularly." Can Jacksonvillian's, other than those with social services in their communities already, be ok with changing this thinking? I doubt it. Let me know when Christians living in Marsh Landing, Ponte Vedra, Queen's Harbor, or even Mandarin, will open their community's doors to a social service org. They won't, but you can bet they'll keep giving, proudly declaring what great givers they are, and making sure the results don't hit too close to home.

I'm not taking a cheap shot at Christians (I am one), nor did I say that Christianity causes vagrants, or whomever, to defecate on downtown sidewalks.

If nimby-ism can't realistically be changed either, then the only objective solution may be to look hard at the giving. Jacksonville can take the award for being the most Christian city, and be proud of that. But then it may also have to take the award for most vagrant-friendly city, and be happy with that. If we were, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't fault anyone for being Christian and/or giving, but this city has a problem to solve that might require some city-wide self-reflection.

What I mean when I say it "hits them in their theology" is that to deal with the homeless problem, objectivity may have to replace (at the very least, be given equal weight as) local Christian practice.
adamh0903
April 1, 2008, 10:01 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Adam, glad someone was brave, or crazy, enough to reply to my pot-stirring post.

As I said, I do not believe that Christianity alone is the cause of the problem. It is Christianity coupled with the other two factors.

We can't do anything about geographic location.

Nimby-ism can be changed. But not without looking hard at the Christianity issue. "I want to be a good Christian, but I don't want to have to look at those less fortunate in my surroundings regularly." Can Jacksonvillian's, other than those with social services in their communities already, be ok with changing this thinking? I doubt it. Let me know when Christians living in Marsh Landing, Ponte Vedra, Queen's Harbor, or even Mandarin, will open their community's doors to a social service org. They won't, but you can bet they'll keep giving, proudly declaring what great givers they are, and making sure the results don't hit too close to home.

I'm not taking a cheap shot at Christians (I am one), nor did I say that Christianity causes vagrants, or whomever, to defecate on downtown sidewalks.

If nimby-ism can't realistically be changed either, then the only objective solution may be to look hard at the giving. Jacksonville can take the award for being the most Christian city, and be proud of that. But then it may also have to take the award for most vagrant-friendly city, and be happy with that. If we were, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't fault anyone for being Christian and/or giving, but this city has a problem to solve that might require some city-wide self-reflection.

What I mean when I say it "hits them in their theology" is that to deal with the homeless problem, objectivity may have to replace (at the very least, be given equal weight as) local Christian practice.

This brings up a conflict in my personal theology, Although I pay my tithe, sometimes I think Christians lose the fact that its not about how much MONEY you give, but also about how much TIME you are willing to give. The Acts Chapter 2 commision says GO into all the earth... There was a church I worked with that provided services to vaigrant and poor on Main street, It used to be North Main Street Baptist Church, and some of the greatest times was working with those kids and people who had nothing, actually hearing these peoples stories and talking to them. I have played the guitar for about 14 years and my band was the "house" band at this church for a couple of months. Sometimes its easy to give money, but a whole different ballgame to give your time.
thelakelander
April 1, 2008, 10:10 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

I haven't read the article and I will do when I get some free time, but I agree with the statement that every city deals with this problem.  However, most municipalities don't have the brunt of their social services centers located in the middle of the exact same area they want residential, tourism and commercial development to take place in.  If you look at a map, Hemming Plaza is really ground zero, which is a bad thing if you want to attract suburbanites, yuppies and people with small children in the exact same space.

Would a day center help?  Sure, to some degree.  However, if we really want to overcome this situation, we need to find a way to relocate/redistribute these services, thus shifting the epicenter.  I still think that the Dennis Street area, which is filled with obsolete abandoned brick warehousing is a centralized location where many of these services could be provided without having a negative effect on their surroundings.
heights unknown
April 1, 2008, 10:10 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Hi all;

Well, everyone else put their two cents in, so I'll add my dollar to it.

Yes, homelessness is a problem in not only Jacksonville, but also numerous other inner cities, cities, and towns around the nation and of course the world.  As an advocate for the homeless, and also the Executive Director of an Agency that addresses homelessness and helps those that are needy, disadvantaged and underprivileged, I will say that it's very easy for those who have never been homeless to talk about it, or even make suggestions while in their comfortable cozy havens, on how to alleviate or eradicate homelessness.  Yes, homelessness is a problem, but the problem lies much deeper than just being homeless.

One of you, in your post, pointed towards the mentally ill, etc.  Well being mentally ill is a problem, and if not addressed or that person admitted to the appropriate medical facility or mental hospital to ADDRESS THAT ISSUE AND NEED, then they will be out on the street (homeless), and will defacate, urinate, and utter blasphemies (many of whom do this unknowingly) to the populace, and yes, be a nuisance.

You're probably saying, where is he going with this?  The United States, that is, the Cities, Towns, Villages, etc. within this great nation spend and waste billions on numerous items and issues that are worthless, unfounded, or unneeded.  Let's face it, the issue of homelessness is a great and huge problem, and will continue to be unless we address "the need" that will "fix the problem."  Many of you will say, "well that's not my problem and they probably want to live that way and set themselves up to be where they are;" in the majority of the cases this is as far from the truth as Alpha Centauri is from Planet Earth.  As an advocate for the homeless, and one who is in contact with them daily, I am here to tell you that the majority of them want out, didn't see it coming until it hit them, and yearn big time to be back in the "normal mainstream of society." 

The problem is no one wants to help them, or let me put this another way; no one wants to help them in the right and correct manner.  It's easy to give out plates of food, clothing, or temporary shelter, but if you do this daily you're just feeding and even encouraging their homelessness.  So you ask, what is the solution?  Well a few of you hit the nail on the head; there are underlying root problems that cause homelessness such as drug use and abuse, alcohol use and abuse, prostitution, dead beat dads, disabilities (mostly Vets), sexual deviants and offenders, mental illnesses, chronic or even acute financial problems, and there are some people who become homeless simply because they didn't know what to do in a certain situation and didn't know where to turn.  The solution is to address the problems, head on and with aggression, that cause homelessness.  What I mean by address is initiate and create programs that are designed and will in fact eliminate and eradicate all of the aforementioned problems and other problems not listed that cause homelessness.

Many social service agencies are sorely lacking in providing such programs within their program curriculum in order to  adddress and eliminate these problems.  The goal of each social service agency (and this is the goal for us even though we're small and of course strapped for cash), should be to address and eliminate these problems that cause homelessness and return these valuable individuals back into the normal mainstream of society; and I may be wrong, maybe the majority of the agencies do have such stated goals, but funds prevent them from moving forward with such a program or programs.

I hate to say it and this will hurt but here goes; again it's easy for us who live in our nice homes and who have good jobs and transportation, to point at homelessness and say this or that.  None of you in this forum or in the world will never fully understand homelessness unless you've been there, or will never be sympathetic in the right or respectful way and frame of mind until you have been homeless; and I hope to God none of you will ever be.  I had the privilege of tasting of the rotten fruit of homelesness; no I am not a druggie or alcoholic and never have been; but medical issues and other issues beyond my control careened me into the homeless arena; and there I was.  I learned from all of that and took it as a calling from God to help those in need.  The way that most of you can help is by really analyzing this email and sending it to City Government Officials, Social Service Agencies in your area or even the State, and also do your part by donating, whenever you can, to the appropriate social service agency or agencies in your area that you feel have such a program or programs that are truly addressing the root problem causes of homelessness, and not just giving out meals, temporary shelter and food.

I go by the name of "HEIGHTS UNKNOWN" in the forum, but I am Garry B. Coston, a 20 year Naval Veteran (spent over half in Jacksonville and was born in Jacksonville), was homeless for a short while in Fort Lauderdale after I left the Navy, and am now the Executive Director and Chairman of FRESH START Social Service Agency, Inc., serving Sarasota and Manatee Counties Florida, and the State of Florida, and have served many around the nation in isolated cases.  Feel free to call me or email me at any time by acquiring my contact info at our website:  (http://www.freshstartreferral.com).

Thanks everyone, and I hope this email opened your eyes a little more regarding the homeless problem and/or issue.

God bless!  HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (Garry B. Coston)
Beloki
April 1, 2008, 10:19 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown


Yes, we have to count our blessings!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIUCTbi_XZs&feature=related

Having said this I want to go beyond the question why and religious issues.

Having many homeless people in downtown is a big problem. What are the humane and effective possibilities te resolve this problem?
heights unknown
April 1, 2008, 10:26 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Hi Beloki;

Please read my post just previous to yours; these are the answers to homelessness!

Now if you want me to be more definitive I can be, but that would be giving out part of of our program operational procedures and curriculum which is classified; but we (FRESH START) have a definitive plan; but I generally iterated the mission and goal(s) that each Agency, or even the City Government should have parallell with working with their local social service agencies, in eliminating the problems that cause homelessness.

Thanks.  Garry - http://www.freshstartreferral.com
thelakelander
April 1, 2008, 10:35 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Hi Beloki;

Please read my post just previous to yours; these are the answers to homelessness!

Now if you want me to be more definitive I can be, but that would be giving out part of of our program operational procedures and curriculum which is classified; but we (FRESH START) have a definitive plan; but I generally iterated the mission and goal(s) that each Agency, or even the City Government should have parallell with working with their local social service agencies, in eliminating the problems that cause homelessness.

Thanks.  Garry - http://www.freshstartreferral.com

I think its a two way street.  The city has goals as well and both entities need to work together to carry out those goals.  This means we also have to take into account the desire to bring vibrancy back to the core, centered around Hemming Plaza.  Is there a way to deal with these issues, without alienating either party's vision?

Driven1
April 1, 2008, 10:42 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

i have a friend who says, "How many consecutive bad decisions do you have to make to end up homeless here in America?"

and think about it - these foreigners who come over here with NOTHING - many times only the clothes on their back - and they don't end up homeless...in fact, they go on to start their own businesses and lead successful lives in our land of opportunity.

have said that, i do think there is room for compassion even still.  having said THAT though, i think many homeless subconciously choose the lifestyle because it affords them the luxury of not having to get a job.  i have personal experience with individuals of this mentality.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 10:54 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Heights. what a great program you have!

Solving these problems are an imperative to our society, and just as Victorian England or Imperial France before the revolution, we will be judged by history by how well we treat the least fortunate among us.

When I lived in San Francisco, I volunteered for the homeless ministry of my childhood denomination in the Tenderloin and worked with Food Not Bombs! I did restaurant consulting while I was on the West Coast, so I had a pretty cool hookup with food while I was there.

San Francisco is committed to a humane and possibility driven solution for its homeless population, and dealt with the fact that EVERY other city in the United States (including this one) was sending its homeless to San Francisco, partially out of spite for the well known liberal politics of the beautiful little city.

But rather than adopting a hostile posture, the Bay Area started working together.   At the end of the day, none of the restaurants, bakeries, produce stores, farmers markets etc throw their food away in the trash.  There are teams of dedicated volunteers who collect it from all over the city.

Abandoned buildings are used as shelter.

Services are everywhere.   Last time I read, (its been a couple of years) San Francisco had a homeless population of around 23 thousand.  But San Francisco is hardly known for being a homeless magnet, because the City also has dense development and literally thousands of other more noteworthy things.

When I wrote this article, I wrote it also as a participant in the merchants community.

One of the things that really stirred me is the level of hostility that is ratcheting up to ever more ludicrous levels between these two groups of people as a result of forcing them to compete against each other in the same savannah.

The city lost a tremendous chance to create real change when they scuttled Wanda Lanier's long term plan and solution.

But it also has not created an alternate plan, leaving both communities of people (merchants and customers on one end and homeless on the other) to just fend for themselves.

Right now, the merchants cant survive with things as they are, because they can never get to critical mass.

And the homeless, panhandlers, bums, and vagrants are being treated abominably.  In many cases they are also behaving abominably.

The cheapest short term solution is a Day Center.  Maybe over near the Noland Building downtown, near Maxwell Coffeehouse.

The homeless arent going anywhere over the next few months, and while I agree with Lake's post that the conveniences of proximity and networking that are presently enjoyed by the provider community downtown should be relocated----there arent any jobs for the homeless downtown----until they have been through job counseling, that is.  (And by this I am referring to the Day Labor variety.   Most of those are down on Talleyrand.)

Given that, I think the only tenable, cost possible solution until the long term issues are worked out, is a Day Center.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 11:08 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

We seem to be having technical issues in the main article.  There are a couple of videos that arent showing up, so I am posting them here.

They are all local.

Keep in mind that a couple of these videos, while real life, are not necessarily safe for work.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iLNhuUI0O9k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/iLNhuUI0O9k</a>
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 11:10 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/YpIfpeVqCUA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/YpIfpeVqCUA</a>
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 11:18 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

this video sums up the working relations between the merchants and the street people:  The tension is only ratcheting up.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/kZE29xsZ9JU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/kZE29xsZ9JU</a>
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 11:22 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

THIS VIDEO IS TOTALLY NOT SAFE FOR WORK.
Its also a little shocking, with a pretty racy soundtrack.
While it is in springfield, a few blocks from downtown, its pretty common..

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/J8kEucV063s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/J8kEucV063s</a>
Driven1
April 1, 2008, 12:24 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

i wouldn't say that is racy at all...that is completely what we are looking for on here.
stug
April 1, 2008, 12:28 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Where was the video of the people sleeping on a sidewalk taken?
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 12:52 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

On the Northwest end of downtown.  Near the mission, across from FCCJ.
Eazy E
April 1, 2008, 2:11 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

5.  The Library Bathrooms on all four floors, during almost the entire day, are filled with people showering, shaving and clogging the air with an almost unbearable stench.


7.  There are almost no outdoor seating cafes in the downtown because of the incredibly aggressive panhandling that takes place at tableside whenever such ventures are attempted.


5) I go in the Library all the time-- never have I seen a homeless person in one, let alone using it as a showering facility.
7) I eat lunch in the middle of Hemming plaza all the time, right in the middle of homeless people and they never approach me, let alone make me feel unsafe.

Also, whoever is harassing the homeless guy in the third of stephen's videos is a piece of shit-- I hope he develops a mental illness, loses his home, and is forced to walk the streets, shitting his pants.  "We don't want your kind down here-- who the fuck does this guy think he is? If it is the La Cena owner, that guy is on notice that not only will I never eat in his restaurant, but also, when people ask me for recommendations on eating downtown (which they often do as I live and work here) I will tell them what a shitbag he is (if that wasn't him, my apologies Mr. La Cena).

Jesus, does not one have any empathy anymore? Go to ANY major city in America and this is what downtown looks like.  People who think we won't have downtown development until the homeless somehow disappear, is living in some sort of fantasy land.  In short, realize that but for the grace of God, there goes you.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 2:25 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

thanks for your post, easy.

Quote
5) I go in the Library all the time-- never have I seen a homeless person in one, let alone using it as a showering facility.

To do this article, I went to the downtown library every day for almost a week and a half, just to see for myself.
I thought that a lot of the complaining about it was probably exaggeration or unfounded.  Sure enough, on every floor, the bathrooms were pretty full each day that I was there.  The attendent librarians all told me the same thing.  No one that works at the library will use them.
Quote
7) I eat lunch in the middle of Hemming plaza all the time, right in the middle of homeless people and they never approach me, let alone make me feel unsafe.

I love eating lunch in Hemming Park.  Its one of the few places with built in outdoor seating.  But it is also heavily patrolled by the two hemming park based cops, and at lunch time, they always step up their presence.

What I was referring to in the article was the restaurants.   Despite the huge downtown sidewalks, there are no outdoor seating areas for the cafes.   

Also, the videos do show how badly the relationships between the street people and the merchants have gotten.

Its totally unfair to both groups of people though.  None of the merchants are trained counselors, yet they are the people who are expected to care for and relate to the homeless.
Eazy E
April 1, 2008, 3:45 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Stephen-
Yeah, I didn't have a problem with the article (didn't even realize you were the author).  Rather, I felt I was arguing against what I hear from practically EVERYONE in Jax regarding downtown, and I think your article captured all their collective thoughts and presented the pro & con nicely.  I have nothing against what you are writing, just the opinions of so many in Jax that downtown-- even in the daytime-- is unsafe*, which I have never felt, even when walking home to Springfield from TSI at 1 AM.

* granted, I am a 6 ft plus dude, but still.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 4:06 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Thanks man, I didnt mean to sound defensive, just answer your questions and maybe explain my reasoning.  I think you are right.  The attitudes towards the problems faced by homeless people are totally shitty.   But I think its also because we are watching a noncelebrity deathmatch between the merchants and the streetpeople where both sides will just make everything suck and everyone more miserable unless we can seperate their issues and keep them from directly opposing each other.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 4:40 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mGOR1qRJbuw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/mGOR1qRJbuw</a>

By the way, these issues extend all the way through the downtown neighborhood including springfield.

Ive gotten a couple of emails today reminding me that springfield is in the service providers loop.
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 4:53 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/vdpqJV_Hrvc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/vdpqJV_Hrvc</a>

heights unknown
April 1, 2008, 5:42 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Hi Driven;

Great post; I agree with all that you said; and yes, people from other countries who come to America, who probably had it really bad in those countries, come here, "turn to," as we used to say in the Navy, and end up upper Middle Class or higher; this is basically true.  We in America are basically spoiled and are privy and exposed to numerous opportunities from birth on up, and there should be no excuse for anyone to become homeless, this I agree with.  In addition, most of us in this country take everything for granted and don't really think about what we are doing but feel life should be handed to us on a silver platter; not so.  We have to work and work hard to obtain real success unless it is in fact handed to us on a silver platter.

That being said, regardless of WHY people end up homeless the bottom line is, when they end up that way, they do need a helping hand.  Relook at my post at the numerous problems that beset the homeless that contribute or cause them to be homeless.  Many of these are social problems, some or most stemming from childhood, others psychological, others medical or medically physical (handiciap/disabilities), and others out of pure stupidity or negligence.  Don't get me wrong guys, I am not trying to give an excuse for the homeless being the way that they are; but I am trying to get everyone to see that there is much more to homelessness than what most see on the surface, and also to get everyone to see underneath the dirt and grime so you will know exactly some or most of the items and issues that cause homelessness.

True people from other countries come here with nothing, work hard and scrimp, scratch and save, then bounce back, and eventually live good or are even quasi-rich so to speak; but most of them that come here are not beset with many of the social ills and problems such as drug use/abuse, alcoholism, dead beat dads, child molesters, disabled, etc.  What I am saying is this:  We can sit back and talk about the problem, or even in a negative light belittle it; but sometimes we do this without fully understanding the crap that contributes to the dirt and grime; do you feel me?  So, if they are homeless, and need help, and truly understand why they are homeless, how they got there, and what they need to do to return as productive members of society, I believe our job as social servants, and citizens of our great country, is to give and provide them the help that they need.  We do it for other countries and sendd trillions around the world...most for stupid incendiary reasons, so why not do it for our own?

Heights Unknown Smiley
heights unknown
April 1, 2008, 5:58 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Thanks Stephendare; we try hard at Avis! Smiley

I think one good solution would be for each City to have a good location, and not necessarily downtown, for the homeless.  And I am not talking "day care."  I am talking about a Center/Shelter with Compound.  Not only would it have food, clothing, and temporary shelter services, but it would also house intense counseling and assistance programs addressing each problematic need for the homeless person, i.e., drug/alcohol, financial, prison/Jail, Medical Problems, Disability/Handicapped, Family Problems (teen, domestic, dead beat dads, etc.), employment/day labor/jobs, etc.  The center would have to be of a good size to take care of most or all of the homeless population for that area.  But again, the Center would not only temporarily house the homeless, but the main mission and goal would be to attack and eliminate the social ills and problems that caused that person to be homeless.
RiversideGator
April 1, 2008, 6:13 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

People really try to overthink this issue and try to moralize too much.  The solution to the homeless situation is quite simple:  Return to the 1950s policy of mass arrests for drunks, bums, vagrants and the mentally ill.  The mentally ill will then be committed to a state mental hospital for a period of years, not days, in order to get the proper treatment for their problems.  Drunks/drug addicts will be held in secure treatment facilities for months to dry them out.  And, the perpetually lazy will now spend their leisure time in jail.  And by doing this, you will allow the sane and legitimate citizens and taxpayers and their families to feel safe and welcome in downtown again.

So, there you have it.  Problem solved.  Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear. 
JeffreyS
April 1, 2008, 6:36 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

It seems like many of you have thought about this.  We have been offered what seems like a good solution in the article.  Can we cite an example of a city that solved this problem is there a model we can emulate.
Midway
April 1, 2008, 8:07 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

People really try to overthink this issue and.....blah....blah....blah....

So, there you have it.  Problem solved.  Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear. 


Well... that's certainly one thing you don't do, ....overthink this issue.
gatorback
April 1, 2008, 8:55 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

RG: when was the last time you went to jail? A lot of the arrested would love your plan as to them its a roof over their heads and three square meals with tv and remote.  The cost is soaring as too. I don't want to pay for that. Okay I would pay for blue colar crimes, robbery and battery/loss of life. The 50s vs 2000? That's a stretch
stephendare
April 1, 2008, 11:52 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

I agree.  The Jail treatment is too damned expensive.   Its cheaper to provide counseling and housing in non security facilities, fix the ones that can be fixed, and identify the ones that need other solutions.
RiversideGator
April 2, 2008, 12:10 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

It seems like many of you have thought about this.  We have been offered what seems like a good solution in the article.  Can we cite an example of a city that solved this problem is there a model we can emulate.

Jacksonville circa 1950
RiversideGator
April 2, 2008, 12:11 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

People really try to overthink this issue and.....blah....blah....blah....

So, there you have it.  Problem solved.  Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear. 


Well... that's certainly one thing you don't do, ....overthink this issue.

I dont recall accusing you of thinking, Midway.  I was talking about the others.
gatorback
April 2, 2008, 12:14 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Thank you.  I don't know what the answer is for the ones that need other solutions; however, for the ones that we can fix I'm sure there's more of a cost effective solution then just throwing them in jail. 
NYC gives out "tickets" that the recreational user has to pay.  As far as the homeless, I'll never forget the testimony of one saying, "I just want to go upstairs and have a place to sleep and some food."  The honorable judge told this person, "I can't keep sending you up there...it's not a hotel." 
RiversideGator
April 2, 2008, 12:15 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

RG: when was the last time you went to jail? A lot of the arrested would love your plan as to them its a roof over their heads and three square meals with tv and remote.  The cost is soaring as too. I don't want to pay for that. Okay I would pay for blue colar crimes, robbery and battery/loss of life. The 50s vs 2000? That's a stretch

Actually, I worked in the Duval County jail for about a year.  It sucks.  It is a stretch to say that people would prefer life there to finding a job and a place to live. 

Note that this solution only applies to those who choose to be lazy and beg downtown.  The real insane would be treated and not in jail either (if I were King).  It really amuses me how these do gooders believe that it is better for the insane to be living on the streets in their own filth than for them to be in secure treatment facilities.  Which policy is really humane?
stephendare
April 2, 2008, 12:20 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Quote
Note that this solution only applies to those who choose to be lazy and beg downtown.  The real insane would be treated and not in jail either (if I were King).  It really amuses me how these do gooders believe that it is better for the insane to be living on the streets in their own filth than for them to be in secure treatment facilities.  Which policy is really humane?

quite right.

on the part of the insane.

Everyone else is cheaper and better through treatment and safe facilities.  A place doesnt have to be made of titanium with a hundred salaried guards in order to be secure.
Coolyfett
April 2, 2008, 2:54 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.

Yes man!!! Every major city has this situation(not a problem)...I don't get this topic. I mean who cares??? If homeless people keep you from going where YOU WANT TO GO, then that just means you didn't want to be there to begin with. I have been to a few major American cities and the homeless are always around. They are not going anywhere. Leave em be. If they ask for money tell em NO and keep it moving!! They ain't animals. Hemming Plaza and the Main Library were some of my favorite places to kick it, even played a few chess games with some the of the homeless's best lol. Jacksonville is a CITY!!! Not a frigging town country bunkers!!!


Eeewwwww look the homeless.....OMG the homeless.....I mean really?  No disrespect but these are some dumb ass responses. In a way it sorta irritates me how people want Jacksonville to have the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE but only want certain parts of it. Bums come with the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE folks. Peace
Midway
April 2, 2008, 8:25 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Actually, I worked in the Duval County jail for about a year.  It sucks.  It is a stretch to say that people would prefer life there to finding a job and a place to live. 

Note that this solution only applies to those who choose to be lazy and beg downtown.  The real insane would be treated and not in jail either (if I were King).  It really amuses me how these do gooders believe that it is better for the insane to be living on the streets in their own filth than for them to be in secure treatment facilities.  Which policy is really humane?

Congratulations. This post makes sense. It seems very different in tone from the previous one.

BTW, would you be willing to finance these secure treatment facilities through increased taxes? Issuance of bonds? What would be your suggestion, inasmuch as these facilities either do not presently exist or are already at capacity. I agree with you that the mentally ill component within the homeless population should be treated, but what facility exists for that?

Then by extension, if the mentally ill are not animals, and do not deserve to be living on the street, what about another demographic component of the homeless population, say, the person who is just poor and homeless? I don't think that they are all truly a "criminal element", although I am sure that there is certainly a portion that are.

But again, secure treatment is a great idea, as long as someone can be found to finance it, probably the taxpayers of Duval county. And keep in mind when it opens, that it will become a magnet facility for the whole country, because it will be a first of its kind, so you may have to limit it to in-state native born vagrants only.
obie1
April 2, 2008, 8:46 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Like it has been pointed out above, jail is an expensive option, probably more expensive than implementing treatment programs that would get at the core of the problem. Anyone have hard numbers on this?
Every city has these problems. In cities with a wider variety of folks hanging around downtown the homeless blend in and make up  less percentage numbers wise.
Steve
April 2, 2008, 10:08 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.

Yes man!!! Every major city has this situation(not a problem)...I don't get this topic. I mean who cares??? If homeless people keep you from going where YOU WANT TO GO, then that just means you didn't want to be there to begin with. I have been to a few major American cities and the homeless are always around. They are not going anywhere. Leave em be. If they ask for money tell em NO and keep it moving!! They ain't animals. Hemming Plaza and the Main Library were some of my favorite places to kick it, even played a few chess games with some the of the homeless's best lol. Jacksonville is a CITY!!! Not a frigging town country bunkers!!!


Eeewwwww look the homeless.....OMG the homeless.....I mean really?  No disrespect but these are some dumb ass responses. In a way it sorta irritates me how people want Jacksonville to have the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE but only want certain parts of it. Bums come with the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE folks. Peace



I disagree - having spent time in many urban areas (San Diego, Portland, Chicago, and Miami most recently), we are far and away, worse than any of the four I just mentioned.  Yes, part of the issue is that with nobody downtown, the homeless approach the random person that they can find.  This gives the perception to people that the homeless are coming after them (not true, but a perception).  In real cities, the homeless just sit there with a sign while hundreds of people pass them every day.

The other issue is that we've collected all of the social service centers downtown, which exacerbates the issue.  Furthermore, Jacksonville is a large city areawise, and when anyone is arrested anywhere in the county, they are brough downtown and released downtown.

Until we solve this issue, the problem will not go away.
walter
April 2, 2008, 11:05 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown?  I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it.  If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot.  If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do?  I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live.  You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.

I live downtown and put up with this all the time.  See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny.  I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live.  Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative.  Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown.  Go figure huh?

Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway?  And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV!  Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya?  effing bleeding hearts
adamh0903
April 2, 2008, 11:22 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown?  I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it.  If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot.  If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do?  I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live.  You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.

I live downtown and put up with this all the time.  See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny.  I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live.  Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative.  Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown.  Go figure huh?



Your post started out good, then ended up being about the most ignorant thing I have ever read on MJ. Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping? Or if they come down and help they better be driving a 1993 Nissan Sentra, is that what you are saying. I agree 100% with the post that said until we solve the issue the problem will not go away, and the issue is the fact that almost all Services for these people are located downtown. Move some of these services out of the core. But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard
Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway?  And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV!  Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya?  effing bleeding hearts
adamh0903
April 2, 2008, 11:40 am
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown


I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown?  I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it.  If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot.  If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do?  I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live.  You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.

I live downtown and put up with this all the time.  See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny.  I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live.  Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative.  Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown.  Go figure huh?

Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway?  And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV!  Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya?  effing bleeding hearts

Your post started out good, then ended up being about the most ignorant thing I have ever read on MJ. Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping? Or if they come down and help they better be driving a 1993 Nissan Sentra, is that what you are saying. I agree 100% with the post that said until we solve the issue the problem will not go away, and the issue is the fact that almost all Services for these people are located downtown. Move some of these services out of the core. But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard
walter
April 2, 2008, 1:57 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown


But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard


typical liberal demogogue, you must be the one from switzerland in the BMW station wagon. Grin
walter
April 2, 2008, 2:05 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown


 Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping?


and exactly what is coming downtown to hand out free food in styrofoam boxes (that are just going to end up in some gutter) doing to help?  Who's being helped other than the materialistic guilty conscience of the suburban nimby handing out the box?  I propose that by doing exactly that, which you feel is ignorant, is actually helping noone.  So go ahead and dismiss as ignorant that which you disagree, but next time you take a good look into the mirror I suspect that you'll see that which you ascribe to others.
stephenc
April 2, 2008, 2:12 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Walter, What do you consider helping?
walter
April 2, 2008, 2:52 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Walter, What do you consider helping?

well lets see... other cities have set up parking meters that accept money that goes to providing shelter to the homeless http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/247725  instead of giving a hand out the money in the meter is given to local shelters.

how about a hand up instead of a hand out.  Maybe all you suburbanites who want to "help" so much can come take one of the numerous homeless home with you, provide some real shelter and food, instead of the temporary makeshift feel good handouts that you provide now.  Come take some back to your neighborhood, set up a shelter there..... host a homeless event at your favorite shopping mecca, the Towne Center.  How about a homeless feeding out in your street.  Rent a bus, come and get a busload give them some food, clothes and let them see how the other side lives.  Let them use your bathroom instead of a business owners front door. 

Its easier to come down where people like me live and do your good deeds here rather than in your uber cloistered whitebread neighborhood where you don't have to actually live with them and can label those of us who do ignorant bigots... hey if thats what makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead come give your handouts and throw your labels we who have to deal with this daily aren't going to shut up!
adamh0903
April 2, 2008, 2:58 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Walter, What do you consider helping?

well lets see... other cities have set up parking meters that accept money that goes to providing shelter to the homeless http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/247725  instead of giving a hand out the money in the meter is given to local shelters.

how about a hand up instead of a hand out.  Maybe all you suburbanites who want to "help" so much can come take one of the numerous homeless home with you, provide some real shelter and food, instead of the temporary makeshift feel good handouts that you provide now.  Come take some back to your neighborhood, set up a shelter there.  How about a homeless feeding out in your street.  Rent a bus, come and get a busload give them some food, clothes and let them see how the other side lives.  Let them use your bathroom instead of a business owners front door. 

Its easier to come down where people like me live and do your good deeds here rather than in your uber cloistered whitebread neighborhood where you don't have to actually live with them and can label those of us who do ignorant bigots... hey if thats what makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead come give your handouts and throw your labels we who have to deal with this daily aren't going to shut up!

Kinda seems to me you offer no real solution, but would rather someone else "rent a bus" and take them away because YOU dont want to deal with them where YOU live, but would care less if someone else had to deal with them were they lived.

I have also re-read the posts nowhere has anyone told the people who deal with this issue daily to "shut-up" or have you been called a "ignorant bigot" like you say you have been labeled. I simply stated that the insults that you throw around based on what people drive and where they live and what they conisder "helping out" IS ignorant. Have you ever thought, maybe these people who live outside the city dont realize they are not helping out the situation by going into the core and just handing out food, have you ever tried to contact leaders, and get them to encourage social servies and organizations outside the citys core to do more than just hand out food, that there is more to the problem than hungry homless. Or have you already sterotyped all of us "suburbanites" as people who really dont care but what to satify our guilt
....by the way, I drive a KIA, not a BMW live in nassau county, not switzerland and have 4 homeless people who live in a tent in the woods 100 yards from by business who I see in here on a daily basis
stephenc
April 2, 2008, 3:10 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown

Walter, sounds as if you just dont want to deal with them yourself. I'm the first to say handouts dont work and i believe most are in the situation they're in because they refuse to better their lives. They choose to live they way they leave. But busing them from one location to another wont fix the problem and you acting like an ass on here to people who try to offer solutions while you offer no solutions of your own is just pointless. If any one if through labels its you buddy. Im sure they're a quite a few labels we could through at you based on the comments you speak about "white" surburanites but there is no need to go there.
walter
April 2, 2008, 3:12 pm
Re: The Paramount End User of Downtown


Kinda seems to me you offer no real solution, but would rather someone else "rent a bus" and take them away because YOU dont want to deal with them where YOU live, but would care less if someone else had to deal with them were they lived.

hey maybe you're not an ignoramus afterall! Cheesy  and I'd be happy to rent that bus...as to the "real" solution if you find one let everyone know cause I'm pretty sure that every city that has this problem would love to know. Relying on