| Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown? |
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| Thursday, 20 March 2008 | |
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Is Downtown ready for national chain retailers, hotels, a movie theater, and streetcars? The local development team for the proposed Bay Street Station development believes so. Today, Metro Jacksonville presents the conceptual renderings for what could become Downtown's largest transit oriented development.
Bay Street Station Development Team LB Jax Development (developer of downtown's W.A. Knight Building Lofts) Atlantic Coast Development (developer of Avenues Walk) The Renaissance Group (developer of Gateway Town Center)
Bay Street Station Site Plan & Aerials Bay Street Station would replace three blocks of surface parking in LaVilla and give Skyway riders a reason to stop at the Jefferson Street Station
Existing Site Plan The existing site conditions serve as an obstacle to connectivity between the Jacksoville Terminal and the Northbank core.
Proposed Bay Street Station Site Plan The proposed site plan fills the entire three block site with a mix of uses in a vertically oriented super structure. Conceptual plans also show the two-way conversion of Bay Street and a potential narrow gauge light rail/streetcar line running down the middle of Water Street.
Proposed Street Level Layout At street level, the majority of the building's footprint offers a massive selection of retail and restaurant space (red). A pedestrian mall (yellow) will serve as a link between the Jefferson Street skyway station and the Water Street streetcar line.
Proposed Building Sections The conceptual building section shows a vertical complex that includes three highrise towers.
Building Uses: Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower) Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower) Health Club - 86,648 square feet Parking - 181,819 square feet Retail - 115,200 square feet Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower) Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet
Proposed Bay Street Improvements Bay Street would become a two lane road with parallel parking under the skyway.
Proposed Water Street Improvements Water Street would go from a rarely used four lane road, to a landscaped two lane pedestrian friendly street with a streetcar line and parallel parking.
While the addition of a possible rail line between this development and the Landing is exciting, Metro Jacksonville encourages the development team, planners and JTA to work together to make this a part of a real streetcar plan that could incorporate Water Street line as a part of a much larger system, connecting areas like Five Points and Springfield with Downtown. Successfully pulling this off would involve abandoning the narrow gauge tourist concept shown above for a common standard gauge based system.
Proposed Conceptual Building Elevations |
March 20, 2008, 5:14 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Great article!
March 20, 2008, 8:34 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Great article. I think this is what we need downtown; greater density in commercial and residential usage of available space.
March 20, 2008, 8:56 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
This would be awesome to finally see something in that abandoned Mars like terrain and also perhaps seeing a streetcar. Hopefully it is a real vintage streetcar and not one of those new Epcot style monorails. But I will believe this when I see it. There has been too much talking and not much walking with development in downtown.
March 20, 2008, 9:12 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
wow...please tell me this has a shot at happening. Please!
March 20, 2008, 9:14 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Ock will say something about the street cars for sure!
March 20, 2008, 9:20 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet
Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower)
Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower)
Health Club - 86,648 square feet
Parking - 181,819 square feet
Retail - 115,200 square feet
Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower)
Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet
The proposed building uses are awesome. The only thing I'm curious about is the missing residential component. I suppose that is due to the poor market conditions.
Once the market pickes back up, the parking lots on the north side of Bay Street are ideal for new highrise residential towers with ground level mixed uses similar to the ones being built in Charlotte and Nashville.
March 20, 2008, 9:42 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I wonder if this project (or at least the full service hotel portion) is contincent on the convention center staying where it is.
March 20, 2008, 9:51 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
If this goes as planned, it will definitely spur additional development in the "in close" Brooklyn and nearby Lavilla areas and the "Mars Type Landscape" surrounding as someone defined it; look for hotels, and possibly office towers to shoot up around this area, possibly a second downtown.
Heights Unknown
March 20, 2008, 1:04 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
This looks great. I do wonder whether the proposed streetcar will compete with rather than complement the skyway. If it does compete, who would choose to ride the skyway over a streetcar?
March 20, 2008, 1:12 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
If the streetcar was a part of a line that stretched into Springfield and Five Points it would then complement the Skyway. Although there is some duplication of the Skyway's Bay Street line (really its just the Jefferson Street station), the Skyway still could serve as the transit system to FCCJ, Hemming Plaza, the Southbank and possibly Riverside Avenue (north of I-95)
March 20, 2008, 3:58 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
*stares at screen, mouth agape*
this...this looks like the perfect development....oh...my....i may cry......oh please let this happen....if it does...God be praised....just what the city needs....cant speak in real sentences.....can only use fragments.....oops...now im lost for words.....
March 20, 2008, 4:00 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
This is exciting. It would be refreshing for the city as a whole to see this project get started. And why stop there? If you build it, they will come...as long as they feel safe in coming.
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http://thebrokenforum.wordpress.com/
March 20, 2008, 4:07 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
i hope this is the end of an era, which we can look back on and call the dark ages of downtown.
March 20, 2008, 4:18 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
wow this is making me giddy
the design is great, and look at that radio tower thing on the hotel.
classic and awesome...whatever it is...
March 20, 2008, 6:52 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
wow cool it wont be done funding will fall juss like everyother project in this city and recession wont help either.
March 20, 2008, 7:50 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I hope the final design honors the fact that Water St is the approach to the Terminal, Jax's grandest facade. The visuals along Water must be preserved and the development's southwestern corner must interact appropriately with the Terminal.
March 20, 2008, 9:21 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I would!........it rains a lot in Jax
March 20, 2008, 9:29 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
March 20, 2008, 11:16 pm
Ock will say something about the streetcars for sure!
The shape of things to come!
Streetcar planning by these Jefferson Street Station developers is foward thinking and VERY tourist oriented. As a tourism attraction it can NOT fail.
The scoop on the plan is in the words "Narrow Gauge" meaning any railroad track with the running rails spaced closer then 4' 8 1/2" or Standard Gauge. Narrow gauge was very popular after the American Civil War, in fact Florida once had over 1,000 miles of 3' gauge and about 15 miles of 2' gauge common carriers. We also had our share of "Wide Gauge" which at one time included most of our own streetcar companies, until they were consolidated. The reasons for railroads going with narrow gauge was logic and economics, in states with high mountains, swamps, remote sparse populations it just made sense. A 3' gauge railroad could be built in 1890 for about 50% of the cost of standard gauge, but the load factors were about 75% or better. Rail was smaller, ties were shorter, right of way could be narrower... A regular 3' gauge car is about 8' wide, 30-40' long. A regular 2' gauge car is 6' wide, 20-35' long. Standard gauge cars are usually 10' wide, and 40-85' long.
One of the largest barriers to invasion of the South by rail that faced the Union in the War of Yankee Aggression was that most Southern Railroads used a wide gauge.
Now that you understand the economics, a little history. Most of the small hotel type trams that ran in Florida were probably 3' gauge. Many mainline railroads were too. The Florida Southern, The South Florida, The Sanford and St. Petersburg (Orange Belt Ry), all became part of the Atlantic Coast Line...SCL...CSX! The new Orlando Commuter Rail is over the line built by the South Florida RR.. Most of the lumber lines in the Okefenokee were narrow gauge, go figure, low costs, lots of bridges, similar tonnage. Yet the Jacksonville Southwestern (Baldwin Rail Trail) which became ACL...SCL...CSX was standard gauge. So was the Ocklawaha Valley, my favorite hard luck railroad. Traction companies were a bit tougher since the economics of buying off the shelf made standard gauge, or wide gauge, the choice. Denver and Los Angeles were exceptions to the rule as both had narrow gauge streetcars.
By 1900-1920 the handwriting was on the wall. 2' gauge retreated to a few spots in Maine, then vanished before WWII. 3' gauge was found in PA, NC, CO, NM, CA, NV, HI and each year found less and less miles. Today if you want to ride a REAL 2' gauge railroad you travel to India or Brazil... Where each country was smart enough to save one isolated line. If you want a 3' experience you can ride in Western PA, CO, NM or HI, otherwise, you can view them in various locations as displays. With 5 million+ railfans in the world, it's little wonder that the few narrow gauge lines do quite well today.
Back about 1970 some folks imported a batch of tiny 2' and 3' trams from Europe. Detroit built it's downtown streetcar project with the "cheap" narrow gauge cars. Parts couldn't be found, and repairs became a major headache. Everything under the floor was just about a custom job. The system was very popular and today they are planning to rebuild it, even larger, but this time it will be standard gauge. On the other hand those Detroit cars went to Memphis, Dallas and other Cities which sent them to rebuilders that converted them from the floor down to standard gauge trolleys.
So what does this mean to us? Well, if the Jefferson Street Station can pull this off with a REAL narrow gauge streetcar. Overhead wire, 600 volt DC, steel wheel on steel rail! REAL would be the trip word here. A fake will only get them local pull, and quickly gain them a "joke nickname" in the railroad world. Gas engines, or other fake junk will do even more damage... Don't pee on our legs and tell us its raining. This is Damage that would be hard to repair. However if they bring in something from the European low lands or Australia and it's REAL? I'll be first in line.
Lastly, "BUT WHAT ABOUT EXPANSION?" "WHAT ABOUT OUR OWN TROLLEY SYSTEM?" Having two streetcar companies might be so cool... Only Jacksonville and San Francisco could make such a claim! We both need Water Street... No problem. Simply have the ties made to hold rail of both size traction companies. In short, you build 3 rail - dual gauge track. The narrow gauge shuttles back and forth and the standard gauge heads on to the Hyatt, Stadiums etc... The state, indeed the nation were once full of dual gauge track... Denver Union Station, Sanford Union Station, Gainesville, Waycross...etc. This is a CAN DO project.
Skyway competition? Not a chance. Until JTA and the City decides to build the Skyway to proper Terminals such as the new San Marco Project, Stadium (via Bay and Randolph), Riverside (via Riverside Drive), the Skyway will compete with NOTHING! As it is, the two should work to feed eachother. If the Skyway is ever completed, add in commuter rail and completed Traction System and we have MASS TRANSIT. Your bus, feeds the Skyway, feeds the Traction Company, feeds the water taxi, feeds the narrow gauge, feeds etc...
Anyone involved in this project is invited to give me a call, send me a message on this forum.
Ocklawaha
March 21, 2008, 4:03 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet
Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower)
Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower)
Health Club - 86,648 square feet
Parking - 181,819 square feet
Retail - 115,200 square feet
Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower)
Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet
The proposed building uses are awesome. The only thing I'm curious about is the missing residential component. I suppose that is due to the poor market conditions.
Once the market pickes back up, the parking lots on the north side of Bay Street are ideal for new highrise residential towers with ground level mixed uses similar to the ones being built in Charlotte and Nashville.
March 21, 2008, 10:11 pm
Pray that it's done right!
Here is a view of what they might have in mind. This classic little tranvia runs to Santa Theresa, Brazil. Like here, most of the systems in South America were trashed for buses. They too realize thier mistakes, some cities have kept a tiny historic segment running. Others just ghosts that haunt the streets at night. One late night in Bogota, we came across miles and miles of narrow gauge tram lines...The wire dead since 1950. But the track looked like it was good yesterday.
My greatest fear is this is something like what we'll end up with... You could see the damage this would do to our railroad or trolley history image.
Ocklawaha
April 2, 2008, 1:57 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
April 2, 2008, 3:02 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.
I was wondering that same thing. So this project is OFFICIAL??
April 2, 2008, 9:27 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I don't think its official yet. Seems pretty much conceptual or maybe a step up to "proposed".
April 2, 2008, 9:32 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Over the last three years or so, about 15% of the projects that reached the stage of Bay St Station actually broke ground.
I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.
April 2, 2008, 9:58 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I certainly wouldn't get too excited. Look at the Brooklyn/Hallmark Project....still no dirt turning.
April 2, 2008, 5:55 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.
"the stage"? What exactly do you mean? What other projects have reached the stage?
April 2, 2008, 6:27 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Conceptual Renderings and an initial pass through the Downtown Design Review Board. Remember St Johns Point, the St James Hotel, or the Related Group Development on the Southbank?
If not, then my point exactly.
April 2, 2008, 6:41 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
If not, then my point exactly.
Sounds familiar but I'm not exactly sure. Those places were built correct??
April 2, 2008, 10:29 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
uh ... no, which is Steve's point
April 2, 2008, 11:32 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
St Johns point was a proposed development near the stadium on the river. It was supposed to be three 30+ story towers.
St James was a proposed 70 story tower at the corner of Bay and A Phillip Randolph that was supposed to be a hotel and condo
Related had a six tower plan for the Radisson Hotel Site.
I'll post renderings tomorrow.
Here is more:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/689/115/
May 1, 2008, 9:46 am
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Finally, I've found time to be able to model some more buildings.
Here is what I threw together on Bay Street Station. The heights and proportions are pretty accurate however the details are not.
Gives you a great idea of the development's impact.
Looking Northeast from Brooklyn.
Looking Northwest from the Acosta
Up close along Bay Street
May 1, 2008, 1:41 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Good work. If it happens, it will go a long way towards transforming the wasteland formerly known as LaVilla.
May 1, 2008, 5:00 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Great shots. I wonder if you can give me any updates on the new Bay Street project if you can and when it will begin construction.
May 1, 2008, 5:08 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Don't you see, I've already built it!
May 15, 2008, 10:38 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
I saw a scale model of this today. This will be great if it goes through.
May 17, 2008, 7:31 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
so is the skyway not going to brooklyn park anymore?
...or was it never going there and im a looney?
May 17, 2008, 8:01 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Brooklyn Park has not broken ground yet. JTA is not going to move forward on the skyway station until Brooklyn Park is up and running.
July 18, 2008, 9:58 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Does anyone know the status of this project?
July 18, 2008, 11:23 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Can't give you details, but... how about...
um?
REAL and COMING SOON.
Ocklawaha
July 22, 2008, 2:32 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Do you mean the Optimus Prime Osborne Convention Center?
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2008/06/optimus-prime-convention-center.html
July 22, 2008, 2:44 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Jaxconf. That's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. In regards to Brooklyn Park/Hallmark Partners or whatever. I saw a new sign for the building housing Marks Gray. This thing has been dead for so long I have forgotten the names. I would have looked for more info, but I was going 45 mph at the time.
July 24, 2008, 2:17 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
My guess is, with streetcar or skyway extension toward the stadium, and the slowly improving city scene, once the Court House and Bay Street Station break ground.... along will come the Vu, St. Johns, Shipyards to restart the party... The St James would top it off.
Ocklawaha
July 24, 2008, 2:24 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
Ocklawaha
Hmmmm, good hope, dream, vision and future assessment of what "CAN" happen if one or two developments are built and provide themselves as a spark or impetus for all of the others; and what a great party that will be!
Heights Unknown
July 24, 2008, 2:25 pm
Re: Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?
The St. James, shyt, that thing will never come to. Thank goodness anyways, it was an ugly big box. The St. John on the other hand, simply gorgeous!
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