| Nocatee's Town Center Revealed |
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| Monday, 18 February 2008 | |
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It is being billed as the first phase of a pedestrian friendly downtown core. Metro Jacksonville has the site plan and wants you to decide if this will truly become the urban downtown core of a new city. Town Center Anchored by a main street of great stores, charming places to eat and drink, and specialty shops, the Town Center of Nocatee will be a lively new version of the traditional pedestrian friendly downtown. Opportunities for “in-town” living will be available and both corporate and professional office space will ultimately provide a new employment center for the region. www.nocatee.com/TownLife/TownCenter.aspx
The first phase of the Nocatee Town Center will feature a 54,340-square foot Publix grocery store and specialty retail. The 21.4 acre site is located at the interchange of Nocatee Parkway and Crosswater Parkway.
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February 18, 2008, 8:52 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
New-suburbanism perhaps?
Moving right to left, we have Crosswater Pkwy that looks like a fairly substantial pseudo greenspace medianed road. Right up against this are the outparcels which to me are code words for "Square Restaurants with their own parking lots," then a huge parking lot for Publix and all. (It is interesting to see how these parking lots are absent from the pretty street level sketches, but I guess you have to have a pov from somewhere to create them). Moving to the left some more, some phase II areas, which appear to be more parking lots and small buildings in other sketches available on the nocatee wwwsite. Then a buffer of townhomes, condos and apartments before we have a band bordered on the top by what looks like a home depot/lowes shopping area and then homesites continuing on the bottom before we get to Office Park World.
So, will this be "a lively new version of the traditional pedestrian friendly downtown"? I guess so if you want to DRIVE to it. There might be sidewalks and bikepaths and all, I can't really tell, but if the royal "they" really wanted to create a true pedestrian friendly area, they would have put it in the middle of everything and clustered living spaces around it (or on top of it, shudder the thought) instead of the oh so typical linear plan shown here.
February 18, 2008, 9:42 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Ditto. New suburbanism at its worst. Nothing can be the center of anything if it isn't even in the center, but relegated to the NE corner of the overall development. Sea of surface parking doesn't mean "downtown" to me at all (unless you're talking about Jacksonville's).
The only real urbanism occurring anywhere in Jax is occurring downtown or near downtown. Stop trying to build new downtowns! Take a drive through Baldwin Park in Orlando and see how much of a downtown it feels like. About as much as St. Johns Town Center.
Developers don't yet get that they can't create a lively urban center from scratch -- at best an antiseptic suburban variety of it.
February 18, 2008, 1:32 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
I sort of agree, with a twist. Scrap most of the parking lots for mini-lots or street parking AL LA Edgewood in Murray Hill. Use some of those expansive green spaces that divide the neighborhoods in the "Town" and install modern or old fashioned rural Trolley cars. Tiny 20-30 passenger cars that could fan out throughout Nocatee, and loop through and around the downtown core blocks. This could be done for as little as 2-5 Million dollars a mile, including track, cars, shops and overhead wire. It would "BRAND" Nocatee as the real rural town that it dreams to be. It has been done in the past too, ever hear of "The Ortega Company?"
Ocklawaha
February 18, 2008, 1:52 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
I don't think the suburbanites and developers out there care much for trolleys, buses or anything else. From the look of the master plan, the "town center" is not even located in the center of the community. Instead, its an outparcel, itself.
February 18, 2008, 2:16 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
another fancy stip center. Calling Nocatee a town is kinda funny to me. It's just a large sub-division with an open air shopping center. For what it is it's nice, but that's about it.
February 18, 2008, 2:25 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Can we all agree on this about Nocatee? It is what it is. They can call it whatever they want. I am sure the people that will live there will be excited that they can go to Publix, Target, Lowe's and Chili's.
February 18, 2008, 2:27 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Looking at those renderings makes me tired. At least they sure didn't skimp on the impervious surface. Nothing defines a place better than acres of surface parking. Seriously guys, can we get some garages and preserve some of that open space?
Downtown core = 1 story height limit, haha
February 18, 2008, 2:48 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
They won't pay what it would cost to build a parking garage in Nocatee. Surface parking is the cheaper option by far.
February 18, 2008, 5:14 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
It didn't work for Disney with Celebration and it won't work here. You can not manufacture a town by simply adding a "town center" full of national chains and expect to create a community.
Do you think all the people working all those high paying retail jobs will be enjoying the good life that Nocatee will provide? No they won't. They will have to commute from outside of "the town".
A rich, vibrant community does not come with the instructions, "simply add water".
February 19, 2008, 12:31 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
I have to agree that you can not create a downtown from scratch by having one story buildings. You need to have tall buildings to even attempt to do that, and even then I'm not sure it would work.
Let's face it though. Jacksonville isn't going to become the type of urban community we would like to have until much tighter land-use regulations are put in place. Right now we are doing are best to become the Houston of Northeast Florida: nothing but endless sprawl, poorly constructed suburban growth, and poor traffic.
Why can't we get some developers with the forsight to build some really tall buildings in the city's core? The only city in the state that seems to be building a skyline is Miami. The rest of the state seems content with the kind of cheap suburban growth that will be very difficult to continue this century with rising fuel costs and poor traffic. Downtown Jacksonville is such a beautiful area and has so much potential, that it makes me sick seeing it go to waste. How many municipalities have the kind of picturesque setting we have, with 5 bridges spanning the river downtown? Not that many, I can assure you.
The city should be providing tax incentives for those who restore old and delapidated buildings as well as provide huge tax incentives for those who are willing to build some more skyscrapers downtown. Of course, that will never happen, not with the incompetence of John Peyton and the often uninterested attitude of the city's citizens.
February 19, 2008, 10:47 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Do you think all the people working all those high paying retail jobs will be enjoying the good life that Nocatee will provide? No they won't. They will have to commute from outside of "the town".
A rich, vibrant community does not come with the instructions, "simply add water".
Precisely. I don't suppose Blue Cross, Merrill Lynch, any of the hospitals, Modis, or Bank of America, will be moving their corporate offices over there, eh? Of course not. Welcome, The Town of More Sprawl.
February 21, 2008, 10:23 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
I know they are trying but it is not the same as the historic town centers that already exist. I understand people are stoked b/c of a water park etc for the kids and all that jazz but I can't cough without hitting a great park with playground equipment here is Riverside.
I don't see the point in turning more trees into cement on the way to St. Augustine while there are plenty of exisitng homes for sale in our already huge metropolis.
Close or not I don't see these people getting out of the SUV's to walk, bike or walk the dogs in this town center environment. More power to them if they do but it looks like a another strip mall although more pleasing to the eye.
It is like the town center the concept is cool but poorly executed. No parking or trees near the little area people might want to walk makes for sizzling good time in the warm weather. Then they have these out parcel monster stores scattered everywhere. Leave some trees people maybe that is why people in historic disctricts can walk year round... ample tree cover.
February 21, 2008, 10:54 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Locally, we've butchered the understanding of what a "town center" really stands for. Now every new strip mall is using the term. Even Gateway Mall has been renamed Gateway Town Center. In Central Florida, Celebration is laid out ten times better and they don't walk there. Residents still get in their SUVs and head to Walmart and the fast food joints on US. 192 in Kissimmee.
There's no reason to think that this would be any different, especially since the "downtown" isn't even in the center of the proposed development. You'll be able to drive through Nocatee and not even get a glimpse of its "town center" if you stuck to the major roads within its borders. However, I'm sure the developers of Nocatee don't care one way or another as long as suburbanites keep forking out the bucks on homes that may not last as long as their 30 year fixed mortgages.
February 21, 2008, 6:15 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
What a waste of space.
Make it walking neighborhood like the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica.
Even the St. John's "Town Center" would benefit from closing down all the streets to vehicle traffic.
February 25, 2008, 1:32 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
It's funny that everyone has such a negative opinion of Nocatee, obviously none of these people have investing in actually living here. The developer has painstakingly worked at making this are so beautiful, what once was a tree farm with a gazillion pines all in a row, now there are massive palms and gorgeous crepe myrtles and magnolias.
The town center will be no more ridiculous than that of Bartram or World Golf. People are moving to Jacksonville for a reason. Nocatee unlilke Palencia, World Golf, St JOhns Forest is atleast amazingly well planned and quite pleasant.
Everyone is now trying to sell their homes elsewhere to move to Nocatee............so, unless you actually have bought something in Nocatee, don't comment.
February 25, 2008, 9:08 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
The town center will be no more ridiculous than that of Bartram or World Golf. People are moving to Jacksonville for a reason. Nocatee unlilke Palencia, World Golf, St JOhns Forest is atleast amazingly well planned and quite pleasant.
Everyone is now trying to sell their homes elsewhere to move to Nocatee............so, unless you actually have bought something in Nocatee, don't comment.
You're right about that one...we have no investment in Nocatee or those other places, and speaking for myself of course, I don't want one. All the developments you named are the reasons that people like me become increasingly agitated. It's unnecessary development. It's cookie-cutter housing built on the cheap with the facade of a community. If that's how you enjoy living, great. But, what happens in 20 years when Nocatee is no longer the big thing? You move on to the next big thing, another cookie-cutter development in another former natural landscape, utilizing more non-renewable resources when there is plenty of existing housing available to meet your needs. Not to mention, you still have to drive at least 20 miles to work each day becasue you can't afford your $400k house on a Starbuck's barista income (meaning, the only job you could get within walking distance from your house is a national retail job with minimum wage), thus causing more traffic issues and unnecessary pollution.
Incidentally, anyone trying to sell their home now is not doing so to "move to Nocatee", that's a subject in a different thread altogether.
February 25, 2008, 1:16 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
I think we all have an investment in the things that Nocatee either enhances or destroys. The folks who bought homes in Palm Valley or nearby parts of St. Johns Co. expecting to live in a rural neighborhood plus the taxpayers who foot the tax bill for county infrastructure to support large developments all have the right to have a say. Nocatee's impacts on St Johns Co are significant. They were well documented before the first spade of dirt was turned, the pine trees were cut and the hundreds of wetlands were filled. The water supply problems, destruction of Florida black bear corridors, traffic jam ups on adjacent roads, need for more schools, fire stations, police, and rural sprawl were dismissed by then county commissioners as the cost of having Nocatee. The county would just have to pay up today because someday Nocatee's property taxes would be an asset.
Folks on this forum have been critical of the town center. It looks attractive but the town center was sold to the commissioners as a way for high paying jobs to move to Nocatee and provide live-work in the same place. So far that has not happened. The developers are having financial troubles. This move to add 540 acres to Nocatee will allow mega homes on the ICW which should help bring in the bucks. There will be a community and environmental cost to that too.
Many of us have paid a price for Nocatee far beyond buying a new home there.
February 25, 2008, 9:15 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding urban sprawl, preserving nature, etc. But I have to say that reading the comments in this forum are actually scary. Some of the commentary is just downright nasty. It's as if you all have nothing better to do. Spend time trying to improve your own towns and communities rather than bash others!
February 26, 2008, 11:16 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Are you a realtor selling homes at Nocatee, collard?
February 27, 2008, 5:55 pm
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Many members of this site are doing just that, participating in city and county preceedings and are actively promoting smarter growth in this area.
I am a St. Johns county resident and strongly oppose the Nocatee development as well as many others. There are too many missed opportunities in this region for smart (not necessarily dense) growth that promotes walkability, prevents traffic congestion, and spares millions of acres of farmland and forest. If St. Johns County spent more time trying to promote corporate and residential growth within its own urbanized area versus feeding off of Duval by allowing low density sprawl to consume pristene wilderness, we'd all be better off. Suburban growth is not a bad thing when done properly (ie. Riverside, Springfield, Murray hill, San Marco, etc..), however, suburban growth in the middle of nowhere along a 2 lane country road lined with single entry gated communities is bad.
April 13, 2008, 10:33 am
Re: Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
Looking at the layout, it looks like not that much. I live in World Golf Village and am waiting to see how The Esplanada is going to work out, but in looking at the layout of that, I am more impressed. Ben Carter did a poor job at St. John's Town Center, but they have said that they learned from their mistakes, and looking at how they want to lay out The Esplanade, it looks much better for not having to drive to go from one place to another.
I have not been to Nocatee yet, but was initially interested until I realized that the commute to my business in Eagle Harbor was not feasible. I have also come to realize that in the long run, World Golf is likely going to be one of the best places to live in the area. Between the Esplanade and Lion's Gate, the retail aspect will be pretty much covered, and getting on and off the highway is convenient, the best of both worlds.
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