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Last Thursday, JTA's commuter rail citizens advisory panel held its first meeting. While nothing shocking was highlighted that hasn't been already covered on Metro Jacksonville, consultants did discuss several considerations that will have an impact on Jacksonville's ability to win federal funding from the Federal Transit Administration.
Condition of existing rail lines

Unlike new start up commuter rail systems in Austin, Nashville, and Oceanside (San Diego), our local rail lines are in excellent condition. This means that if a deal were to be worked out with local railroads, we would not have to invest as much in track and signal improvements as our peer cities had to do with their systems.
Unfortunately, the rail lines are in excellent condition for a reason: They carry heavy freight rail traffic. The railroads are not likely to allow commuter trains without capacity improvements to their infrastructure. Furthermore, if the railroads are unwilling to entertain the idea of commuter rail, there is nothing local or state authorities can do to strong-arm them into a deal. So far, CSX and FEC have been amenable to preliminary discussions. Every rail system is different

For months Metro Jacksonville has publicly battled JTA representatives that commuter rail should not be viewed as a system where stations must be spaced on an average of five miles apart. At the beginning of the meeting, JTA's new rail consultants stated that no two systems are alike and pointed out that Philadelphia's SEPTA commuter rail system has stations as close as three blocks away from each other. Unfortunately, Mike Miller and Ed Castallani, along with the crowds they have mislead in previous meetings were not present to hear this fact stated.
Dwindling Downtown

Consultants pointed out that one of the challenges commuter rail would have in Jacksonville is that our downtown is clearly a weak one with an over supply of parking spaces and a shrinking employment base. Rail consultants believe the city needs to offer some type of incentive program to keep and attract major companies downtown, as opposed to letting them flee and set up in the Southside.
Spread out workforce

One of the challenges Jacksonville faces is that Downtown is no longer the centralized core of business that it once was. However, as studies go on, we believe it will be proven that a majority of our major office parks are directly adjacent too or located within close proximity to existing rail lines. This creates the opportunity for rail to serve as the trunk line of a transit system and for feeder bus routes to serve nearby office complexes.
To see how Jacksonville can overcome the repeated questions about density, consultants should look no further than Charlotte, whose downtown has more parking lots than ours, and whose urban area is smaller and more spread out than ours. For comparison's sake, Charlotte's planned commuter rail line will stretch 30 miles with 12 stations on Norfolk Southern right-of-way and is estimated to cost $260 million, or $8.7 million per mile. If Charlotte can find a way to overcome these issues and develop a light rail, streetcar, and soon commuter rail system, there's no reason Jacksonville can't. Not sold on the S-Line

Consultants also are not immediately sold on the S-Line. It was mentioned that the only major employer along the S-Line corridor was Shands (which is still one more than what is along I-95 through the Northside). As time goes on, we'll prove in these meetings that this is not so. The S-Line is one of Jacksonville's most valuable assets and a major piece in a solution to solve more issues affecting our community than just using mass transit to get from point A to B.
As for places of employment along the S-Line, Swisher employs 1,000, Edward Waters has 1,000 students and faculty members, and Gateway is a 600,000 square foot shopping center. Add in additional industries and destinations with a 1/4 mile from the S-Line, such as the Farmer's Market, Load King, JTA, Berman Brothers, Norwood Shopping center, and USNR. The S-Line weaves through Jacksonville's most transit dependent population. If used as a connection between the Jacksonville Terminal and the CSX S line, the second least used major rail line in town, then we can add the airport, River City Marketplace, Anheuser-Busch Brewery, Imeson Industrial Park, and the Jacksonville Zoo to the mix.
Railroads privately owned

Consultants believe it will be difficult to negotiate with local railroad companies to run passenger traffic on their rails. However, this study has consultants looking at every single major rail line in Jacksonville. At the end of the day, Metro Jacksonville believes the most viable line for commuter rail is the CSX A, which will see a reduction in freight traffic due to Orlando's commuter rail deal.
If we are talking about the CSX A and avoiding CSX's main corridors and railyards, we believe those discussions go from being difficult to realistic. While capacity issues will have to be overcome regarding the FEC line, they are at least willing to sit at the table, which is something JTA representatives have stated in the past that they would not do. Bus Rapid Transit

Rail consultants were not aware that $100 million has already been set aside for rapid transit right-of-way as a part of the Better Jacksonville Plan. Consultants agree that BRT may not be the answer in certain corridors if it costs just as much or more than various forms of rail. We hope that JTA is listening because it would be a travesty for them to go out and spend that money for expensive property that may not be needed at the end of the day.
Metro Jacksonville's opinion While we applaud JTA's decision to go out and hire qualified professionals to study the feasibility of commuter rail, we still question where this will take us in the end, since it appears each study is completely separate from others and JTA is not considering doing this without the help of the FTA.
For example, what happens if it is proven that the CSX A line is viable for commuter rail service between Clay County and Downtown? Is JTA willing to abandon that entire BRT corridor, since commuter rail is a cheaper and cleaner option that uses existing infrastructure and spurs economic development? If so, we believe the $100 million set aside for rapid transit should be frozen until the commuter rail and streetcar studies are completed. If not, we could be looking at the failure of multiple systems due to wasteful duplication. VIEW THE PRESENTATION GIVEN AT THE JTA CITIZENS ADVISORY COUNCIL MEETING HERE: Click to View |
February 4, 2008, 4:24 am
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
Good article...except the "dwindling downtown" part. I think that pretty soon, we will have a more lively downtown if we could talk to someone from the city council. Anyway, I think that JTA should move forward with the commuter rail system.
February 4, 2008, 8:37 am
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
I know that you could always say you left out this or that employer but one I think we should always mention is NAS. The Navy is a big part of Jacksonville's economy and one plan serves them and one forgets them.
The mass transit plan shouldn't just look at what Jacksonville is but to a degree what we want it to be. A build it and they will come aspect.
February 4, 2008, 9:04 am
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
I agree 100%. Right now, its a mixture of what we think Jacksonville is today and what the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) wants us to be so we can get in line for "free" FTA money. At some point, we're going to have to decide if some things are best done on our own to make sure they're done in a way the benefits several aspects of our city's quality of life offerings that far exceed the issue of being the FTA's lap dog and only chasing after the sticks they throw to us.
February 4, 2008, 9:11 am
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
Do people think the FTA's stance with respect to BRT will change with the next administration? In other words, is there a better chance to get federal funds for rail after January 2009?
February 4, 2008, 10:17 am
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
I would say yes. I don't know what Romney and McCains records on the issue are though Romney was the Gov of a state with an incredibly successful commuter rail system. He is bound to see the importance of it. I think Dems tend to be rail friendly.
February 4, 2008, 9:36 pm
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
All I can say is thank God. Even though BRT is not done w/ by JTA, this is definetly a step in the right direction. I wish JTA and the city would put a halt on any destruction on current rail lines, like the S-line, until this study is over. All we have to do is keep the pressure on. The Folio article also helps spread the word. I'm sure we have found some new supporters. Kudos to JTA for this move. Better late than never!
February 4, 2008, 10:03 pm
MORE GOOD NEWS
CHANGE IN 09?
Only for the worse... Sorry to bust your bubbles but Clinton did NOTHING for Rail Transit, Amtrak itself cut to the bone, and McCain, is the worst enemy of Rail and Amtrak since General Motors. Does anyone else really have a chance? I doubt it.
The FTA is currently driven by highway PAC $$ and is very stacked against Rail, so we go alone, or we probably don't go.
Florida DOT, and our Governor is quite a "KNOW NOTHING" and "DO NOTHING" in the field too. In fact for a state of our size (population) we are probably dead last in rail... Even Texas, home of BIG OIL, is pulling past us.
There was a time when we defeated the invading American Army at Jacksonville at Durbin.
There was a time when we drove out the Spanish at the point of a sword.
There was a time when 6 of our citizens fired into 20,000 Yankees at the foot of Broad Street.
There was a time when the Florida Guard stood at the gates of the City and refused anyone entry because of Yellow Fever.
Today?
We don't have the missing MALE PARTS to do a simple transit system, fill a downtown, build a Courthouse, or save a historic school.
I'm filling my pool with SOCO and going for a swim!
Ocklawaha
February 6, 2008, 2:53 pm
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
The point about the distance between commuter rail stops you make is confusing in that isn't the whole point of mass transit is getting people to their destinations as quickly as possible. If you are making stops every 1-2 miles, the trains are not getting up to speed and that is just slowing the process down. It sounds like what you're describing is more of a hybrid LRT/commuter rail system - with LRT distances using commuter rail technology. But commuter rail by its mission is to bring people from outlying "bedroom communities" into the urban area primarily for work. If I am on that train, I don't want it stopping every mile and making that trip from the distant suburbs even longer. I might as well stay in my car.
Also - JTA has maintained all along that it was looking at a multi-modal system - not just BRT, not just commuter rail or LRT or whatever. The waterborne study and this commuter rail study indicate that was true. Maybe your mistrust is a bit overzealous. Let this play out and see where it goes. MJ has a seat at the table. I suggest using it properly.
February 6, 2008, 3:14 pm
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
It doesn't matter about getting from point A to point D the quickest if I want to go to points B & C. Caltrain is a good example of how to deal with the issue you describe. They have local commuter rail trains stopping every mile or so and express trains that stop at major destinations. Something like that would work good locally, as opposed to building long distance commuter rail and short distance BRT or light rail paralleling the existing lines.
That's a common mistake made by many planners. Every rail system is different and should be built according to each region's individual needs. Here's links showing various commuter rail systems that do what I described.
Caltrain: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/700/116/
Austin Capital Metrorail: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/589/116/
The worst thing you could do is let this play out, if you've seen the BRT routes planned so far. There's nothing wrong with a multi-modal system or BRT, but the corridors JTA has planned will have multiple systems paralleling each other. If there's examples of ways to use existing infrastructure to kill two birds with one stone and achieve the same goal for a fraction of the cost, why not speak up before its too late?
February 6, 2008, 3:36 pm
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
Btw, we have never claimed that JTA was not doing a commuter rail study. In fact, many here are taking an active role in that process. Also, the rail alternative is not an "either or" mission. Its about taking the BRT plan and integrating it with potential commuter rail plans. Doing this would mean some corridors would have BRT, while some would be rail, without having to pay for some that would have both, which is what would happen if the current BRT plan is allowed to become reality.
Also, here's a negative about letting poorly concieved ideas play out: The $200 million skyway express.
Here's a positive for getting involved in the process early on: JTA revises BRT plan to remove the idea of running bus lanes down Adams, Forsyth and Bay Streets.
So I'd suggest our interaction is properly taking effect, despite the fact that it may turn some off.
February 6, 2008, 10:47 pm
Re: JTA's Commuter Rail Study Begins
Btw, we have never claimed that JTA was not doing a commuter rail study. In fact, many here are taking an active role in that process. Also, the rail alternative is not an "either or" mission. Its about taking the BRT plan and integrating it with potential commuter rail plans. Doing this would mean some corridors would have BRT, while some would be rail, without having to pay for some that would have both, which is what would happen if the current BRT plan is allowed to become reality.
Also, here's a negative about letting poorly concieved ideas play out: The $200 million skyway express.
Here's a positive for getting involved in the process early on: JTA revises BRT plan to remove the idea of running bus lanes down Adams, Forsyth and Bay Streets.
So I'd suggest our interaction is properly taking effect, despite the fact that it may turn some off.
I sorta agree..Keep the pressure on JTA. Letting it play out is not a good idea at all. People should get involved. The rail plans that most posters are speaking on would clear a lot of traffic off the expressways. You have to keep the pressure on things if you really want change. The trains would have right of way and would move ON SCHEDULE...keywords ON SCHEDULE. Those of you who were late for work because the JTA bus was TOO LATE or TOO EARLY know exactly what I am talking about.
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