| Nocatee: The New Southside |
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| Thursday, 17 January 2008 | |
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Nocatee, a community who's name means peaceful river, is well on its way to becoming the First Coast's new Southside.
The intersection of US Highway 1 & County Road 210 is the western gateway to Nocatee.
This section of Palm Valley Road has been upgraded and widened into a four lane highway.
Numerous signs point drivers to the direction of the Town of Nocatee.
The $78.6 million Nocatee Parkway is an expressway funded by developers to provide future residents with direct access to Ponte Vedra on one end and US Highway 1 on the other. Eventually, this expressway will be extended to directly connect with US 1. The second phase is anticipated to break ground later this year.
Nocatee Parkway, looking towards the Intracoastal Waterway Bridge.
Nocatee Town Center will be located on the Northwest corner of the Nocatee Parkway / Crosswater Parkway interchange. The first phase is expected to break ground within 30 days. It will include a 54,340 square foot Publix and 80,660 square feet of retail space. Nearby, Flagler Development is proposing a 675,000 square foot LEED certified office park.
The off-ramp to Crosswater Parkway resembles the JTB / Gate Parkway interchange with the addition of palm trees.
Crosswater Parkway, looking North towards Nocatee Parkway. As the development grows, this area is expected to become the home of several big box retailers, hotels, restaurants and gas stations. Developers estimate Nocatee will have about 1 million square feet of retail when the entire community is finally developed.
As Crosswater Parkway heads south into the heart of the development, it meets Preservation Trail (the main east-west local road) to form a large landscaped roundabout.
Nocatee Community Park
While not urban, the recreational area features ample parking areas, man-made lakes, walking trails, ballparks and space for a future YMCA.
Nocatee Residential Communities The existing residential sections of Nocatee are either condo or single family home developments. One thing they all have in common is gated entries with their own grand entrances off heavily landscaped four lane boulevards.
In the future, Crosswater Parkway will be expanded deeper into the undeveloped tract to open up more land for gated single family residential communities and golf courses. Currently, Nocatee is home to around 100 residents. That number is expected to grow to 30,000 over the next 15 years. It is the complete opposite of the urban core, but it's all Jacksonvillians that avoid downtown can talk about. For more information on Jacksonville's newest suburb visit: www.nocatee.com |
January 17, 2008, 8:41 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I passed through a couple weeks ago and was amazed at how much had been completed since I was last through there 6 months ago.
January 17, 2008, 8:45 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Jason, I know you mentioned this with Fleming Island yesterday, but doesn't Nocatee also have rail potential?
January 17, 2008, 8:47 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
The intersection of US 1 and Palm Valley Road/CR 210 would be the perfect location for a Park n Ride commuter rail station. A location there would provide direct access to Nocatee residents.
January 17, 2008, 8:50 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Eventually a BRT or LRT spur could easily extend from there both east and west to better serve Nocatee and the rest of the exploding 210 corridor.
January 17, 2008, 9:05 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Nocatee essentially encompasses everything along the Palm Valley Rd corridor between the intracoastal and US1. You can see the construction of the new Nocatee Parkway in the image. Some of this development will fall in Duval but the majority will be in St. Johns. The Duval County line is marked by cleared lines that meet at the "210" marker just below the "Florida St. Johns" label. This image is about two years or so old and by comparing this to the photos above you'll see how much has been done.
The old Palm Valley road corridor would be a great route for some sort of transit spur into Nocatee.
January 17, 2008, 9:43 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
What a great idea to build a expressway before the area was fully developed. If I understand it correctly that is the same plan for Oakleaf. That's going to be a task since the area is already developed and has major conjestion.
January 17, 2008, 11:13 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Wow, after looking at the pictures, I continue to see that you guys in the state of Florida know how to build roads and communities. Up here in SC, many expressways and roads are built half-ass, without a lot of attention to detail. Nocatee is looking beautiful...I may want to check that area out if I ever get a job down there.
January 17, 2008, 11:29 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
It's funny they had the nerve to name a road 'Preservation Trail'.
January 17, 2008, 1:15 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I must be a true urbanite. Looking at that awful "stucco yucko" architecture (single- and multi-family) -- who cares if it's got a fancy entry gate -- makes me want to gag.
January 17, 2008, 1:59 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Its definately not my cup of tea. But one man's trash is another man's treasure.
January 17, 2008, 2:51 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Looking at the image above, who picked the route of the expressway?
January 17, 2008, 3:36 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Have they done ANYTHING different?
Does the town center have a streetcar like the unique ones in California?
Does the sidewalk system and trails, cross the road at cross-walks, or use over and underpasses such as they have in Maryland?
Are the wildlife preserves connected by wildlife corridors, that pass UNDER the roads?
For all the talk of paddle trips on the creeks, is there a single canoe center, landing and park planned?
Will the lakes connect with a chain of man-made creeks or canals?
Is there a place for Fly-in Residents to have a landing field with pull ups or hangers behind the homes?
For all of their transportation and freeway planning, was a single right-of-way set aside or graded for Rail or BRT transit?
Is there a single bus stop, shelter, station and pull-out?
Just wondering...
Ocklawaha
January 17, 2008, 4:32 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Does the town center have a streetcar like the unique ones in California?
No. No streetcar system is planned. In fact, the town center will probably be closer to Oakleaf Town Center's layout than Celebration's (Disney's attempt at New Urbanism).
Yes, the sidewalk system has crosswalks at major intersections.
No.
There's a park planned, but canoeing won't be one of the amenities.
No.
No.
No.
No.
January 17, 2008, 4:48 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Regardless of the characteristics that you guys don't like, it sure beats many projects that are built up here in SC, particularly with infrastructure. In some areas in SC, you would think you're in a Third World country.
January 18, 2008, 4:51 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
LOL. I thought the exact same thing;-) What exactly did they "preserve" anyway?
My sentiments exactly, guys. Oh, and OKL, those things you asked for would actually make this place a REAL town. Well, that and an elected town government, lol. But as we all know, this is just another developer's poor attempt and trying to create something from scratch that in reality takes years to accomplish: Community.
January 21, 2008, 3:48 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
When I escaped from the westside and moved south of St. Augustine years ago I was wondering when US-1 would finally be snookered in. It started a few years ago with Julington Creek and will now be completed with Nocatee. Godspeed you northbound commuters cause that's the only speed you're gonna get.
January 21, 2008, 2:51 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I hate to be mean, but this is just typical suburban garbage complete with tired, bad architecture. If I see one more stucco house with cartoonish features and a garage door in the front of the house, I am going to be sick. And, as someone else stated, how is this a new town that is different than countless other suburban tract house hellholes around town? Answer: It isnt. SSDD.
January 21, 2008, 5:32 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I agree Riverside. The photos sure do show a lot of asphalt.
January 21, 2008, 8:43 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Stucco has to be on its way out soon. How long can this many houses, strip malls and apartments be produced with the same finish. I ride through the older parts of Argyle forest and think the old wood siding houses have so much character really plan old T111 siding has character compared to stucco.
January 22, 2008, 10:03 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I don't think we'll ever see stucco leave our area, unfortunately. I never understood the appeal really. I live in a stucco house built in the late 70's and no good comes from it, aesthetically or structurally. We've replaced an entire wall that was rotted to the sill-plate because of old cracks in the stucco that allowed water seepage. We live in a place that experiences large periods of rainfall and we're going to cover our wood-frame homes with a porous cement material? I love the Hardi-board planks (cement & fiber) that simulate the old wood siding you're talking about. When primed and painted, you can't tell the difference between them and wood and of course, they stand-up much better to our local climate and require much less maintenance than wood.
Facts are, stucco is cheap, any average moron can put it up, it requires less time to install, and can be put over virtually anything...even those nice styrofoam pseudo-cornices and pilasters we so often see. Put that against any other covering and stucco will win everytime
January 31, 2008, 8:23 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I am in the "makes me want to puke" camp on this one but I recognize that developers are continuing to refine their game and add amenities that will make this community better off than the isolated tract home of only 5-10 years ago. The fact that a "town center" is now an essential ingredient of greenfield developments is interesting because it means that this operations target demographic want all the things the urbanists in this blog want - a working, walkable, shopable downtown... only clean, semi-public (read exclusive), and NOW. Who wants to put all the years of effort into reviving downtown when you can just buy a ready-made!
It is disheartening to see how all these people and businesses are going to be pulled further afield of downtown but this is a done deal. Lesson for downtown though: look at the greenspaces and amenities that these developers saw were important enough to build - space that makes them no direct dollars the way real-estate square footage does. Without parks, great public buildings, plazas, transit stops and facilities, downtown is just a sub-division without a fitness center.
February 1, 2008, 8:50 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
...regarding amenities, etc..
February 1, 2008, 3:06 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Wow, I'm impressed. I wonder if there will be a resort tied to this.
February 1, 2008, 3:07 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
The bottomline is that most downtowns are not conducive for amenities like this...and there is a big market for them. People want live near their version of paradise, so to speak.
February 1, 2008, 3:33 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
That is certainly a suburban ammenity and will likely never be built in an urban environment. Both are two different worlds and cater to different types of people. My gripe is that this development is beginning as a completely isolated "island" that is requiring massive amounts of infrastructure upgrades and expansions to accomodate it. It could just as easily have been built up against another neighborhood and have been an expansion and enhancement of an existing area. It could have also joined another neighborhood with a gridded street system and include pockets of natural preserves and higher density, and still be able to support the same lifestyle in a more walkable community that will suffer less headaches due to traffic congestion.
Nocatee is not necessarily a community. It is a pre-planned region along a new highway that will be lined by single entry housing divisions similar to the 210 corridor, however, will have some better ammenities. I'm sure it would be a great place to live and raise a family but don't be fooled by statements of "town centers" and "walkability" because a car will most certainly be a necessity for you to live there.
February 1, 2008, 3:39 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
No. Its a part of the recreational area. It can be seen in the top of this image.
February 1, 2008, 3:44 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
The bottomline is that most downtowns are not conducive for amenities like this...and there is a big market for them. People want live near their version of paradise, so to speak.
Something like this could be developed in a location like the Hogans Creek Greenway area, Metropolitan Park, McCoys Creek, Metropolitan Park and a host of other inner city areas, if the will and money to do so were present. I don't believe this park will be open to the general public. Nocatee has been set up where the residents who live there will have to pay extra for these services. Kind of like a giant apartment complex or gated community with association fees to cover the cost of the amenities. However, you do hit on something about the core. The existing parks and open spaces definately need a make over. If something like the Hogans Creek area can be improved to become the "Central Park" it once was, we'll see that the areas bordering it would become just as popular as new communities like Nocatee.
February 1, 2008, 4:08 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Nocatee is not necessarily a community. It is a pre-planned region along a new highway that will be lined by single entry housing divisions similar to the 210 corridor, however, will have some better ammenities. I'm sure it would be a great place to live and raise a family but don't be fooled by statements of "town centers" and "walkability" because a car will most certainly be a necessity for you to live there.
Lake, good points. I don't believe a park like this could afford to be available to the general public, so if you could build an aquatics "town center" in older parks near older neighborhoods, you would have to consider fees or admission prices since you couldn't make those areas gated. However, I foresee many neighborhood associations protesting an idea like this, despite the fact that it could enhance their quality of life.
February 3, 2008, 6:50 pm
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Charleston, I wouldn't ever draw a direct parallel between a development like this and downtown. I would however, as lakelander gets, like to see our parks improved to even 1/10th this level. The spaces in a city that make it a great center for commerce, economic activity, and social excitement are public spaces that serve the masses - Central Park, Millennium Park, Grand Central, Boston Common, etc. The point is: Developers understand this - they know that putting up a bunch of houses isn't enough to draw people to their product. They need to have something else to offer - something that compliments these houses that also happen to be available for sale in the vicinity. I'd even go so far as to say the houses matter less! If our civic leaders could learn this lesson, the could actually put our money to work with better parks and laws that encourage a vibrant downtown.
lake, what about something like San Fran's Embarcadero Center... not the greatest, but still an interesting model of private money creating public space. I'd never hope so much but man, if developers can turn a backwoods highway plot into something this marketable... no, forget it... they'd screw it up!!
February 4, 2008, 9:08 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Hank, Lake and Jason have it right-on-the-money. And I'll add, MY gripe with this is the fact that it's touted as being a work-live-play "town" when it is not. The majority of these types of towns are appealing because if gives the sense of a tight-knit community with plenty of social activities to do and places to work without ever having to leav your little town, but the fact of the matter is, the types of businesses that go into these towns are national chain retail businesses...the types of places that pay just over minimum-wage. No family, even with it being a dual-income household, could afford the housing working that type of job. It almost always requires the residents to work outside of the town, and for the people that work in the town, they are living in places that are more affordable, located outside of town. So, what is really accomplished other than just another pretty place to live that created more sprawl and more traffic nightmares?
The planners really should do analysis on employment in the city, find out where the majority of people work (the people to which their community will cater), then create their town within a walkable/rideable vicinity of those business. Only then will there be a true work/live/play community.
February 4, 2008, 9:23 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
You're right pancake, much of this stuff is so artificial... a wolf in sheep's clothing for our city. I suppose I see this thing as an exercise in understanding real estate buyers and what they're enticed by.
February 4, 2008, 9:29 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Not to let the planners off the hook here Pancake, but its up to the city/county to do the analysis on what's best, not the planners. They are out for one thing, Money. It will be marketed as anything they can get away with to draw in the buyers. Now, as far as I'm concerned, St Johns County has made the statement that they are happy with feeding off of Duval by drawing in a residential base along the county line that commutes daily to Jacksonville for work. I'll be impressed when the county decides to stop approving bedroom community developments of this type and start pushing for the enhancement of the existing core area by drawing in more employers and infill development to become more self-sufficient.
The World Commerce Center (along with World Golf Village) is a shoddy attempt at promoting the corporate growth of St. Johns county. The problem lies with the fact that it was built in the middle of nowhere forcing more farmland and wilderness to suffer the bulldozer in the name of "Progress". It may eventually resemble another Southpoint, however, will also suffer the same problems with traffic and infrastructure. Both could have easily been built within the urbanized area of St. Augustine and likely would have enjoyed a much quicker and larger success than starting from scratch.
February 4, 2008, 9:40 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
I agree 100%, Jason.
Btw, if anyone is interested in a bungalow in Avondale, I have one for sale...and would like to get out of my house in Baymeadows too
October 22, 2008, 10:48 am
Re: Nocatee: The New Southside
Just passed through Nocatee this morning and the construction seems to be moving forward full force. New roadways and other infrastructure are bustling with activity and the new Race Track road connection is well underway, slated for a 2010 completion.
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