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Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park Print E-mail
Friday, 21 December 2007

The destiny of the Main Street pocket park was predicted by urbanites long ago and now the prophecy has come true. Today Metro Jacksonville suggests some ways to turn a lemon into lemonade.

 

Establishing a goal 

The Main Street Pocket Park was created as a part of a plan to expand greenspace in the downtown core.  Pocket Park backers believed that its proximity to the Main Library would make it a popular place for library users and residents looking for greenspace in a sea of concrete.

 

Why the dream failed before it began 

This pocket park was doomed from the start strictly because of location.  For an urban public space to be successful, it needs to be located in an area with a mix of uses that feed the space a diverse amount of activity on a continuous basis.

Due to location, there's little reason to visit the Main Street Pocket Park on a regular basis. 

 

Identifying the problems

While location can be identified as the general problem, there are several negative elements that combine to make the location undesirable.  To overcome these factors, the problems must be identified.

1. Surface Parking Lots

Great public spaces normally have complementing pedestrian friendly uses adjacent to them.  Surface parking lots can be considered one of the most negative uses for an urban core.  The Main Street pocket park has surface lots located directly to the north and south.  Little to no activity for the park is stimulated by these neighbors.

 

2. Salvation Army

The park's east border sits adjacent to the Salvation Army's surface parking lot, which is separated from the park by iron fencing.  This means the entire east border is dead space. 

 

3. Using the Park

While the park looks nicer than the surface parking lot it replaced, it is designed in a fashion that makes it difficult to use for anything more than a dog's public bathroom and vagrant rest stop.   One of the things that makes it difficult to use this greenspace is the large number of planters and the lack of a dedicated sidewalk system to navigate through the public space. In order to get from the west side of the park to the east side, library-going picnickers either have to walk around the park or through the planters.

 

4. Main Street

While the public library is adjacent to the park, the public space is located on the back side of the library and that side is separated from the park by downtown's busiest one way street.  Not only that, the library has its own outdoor courtyard as well as a cafe that opens up onto Hemming Plaza.  Needless to say, if library users are going to utilize outdoor space, it is most likely going to be Hemming Plaza or the courtyard.

 

Overcoming the problems

So now that the problems have been identified, the next goal is to find a way to overcome them.

1. Take advantage of visibility 

While the traffic on Main is certainly a negative in drawing library patrons to the public space, the high level of through traffic does mean the park enjoys a level of visibility that most downtown public spaces can not take advantage of. 

At present, the visibility element is a negative because the park is dominated by vagrants.  The City of Jacksonville must find a way to turn the park into a destination itself.  If that can be done, then the visibility factor becomes a plus that will attract a more diversified group of users to this space.

 

2. Flexibility

Because the space is basically a grass yard with limited landscaping, this means a number of flexible uses can take place in its borders with relative ease.  Bringing in a mix of permanent and short term uses will continue to feed the space with visitors.

 

3. Lease out the library garage retail spaces

For some reason the retail spaces in the library garage are still incomplete and not leased.  This means either the leasing rates are too high for the market or the owner is refusing to lease them for some reason.  If these spaces were made available at the market rate, new uses occupying them would bring more people into the immediate area, exposing them to this struggling public space. 

 

4. Make Park a Destination

Right now, there is nothing special about this space.  It needs a theme.  Maybe a tot lot or interactive fountain to take advantage of the children using the library nearby.  Perhaps a monument representing a significant event or person in Jacksonville's history?  Whatever it may be, a built in theme would be another draw giving residents a reason to visit.

 

5. Built-in Retail

In addition to the things above, many cities are including areas for small retail shops, restaurants and vendors in their public spaces.  The Main Street Pocket Park would be an ideal site for this type of use because of the heavy amount of traffic using Main Street.  Bringing in built-in retail would also turn the park into a revenue generator for the city.

 
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>> 60 Comments
jeh1980
December 21, 2007, 6:22 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Good article. I'm not really fond of parks in downtown...except for Friendship Fountain and Hemming Plaza. It would have been better for that place to have a skyscraper than a park:Smiley. I'm not dislikng Mayor Peyton, he's OK, but his pocket park idea would not make this great city a destination. I don't know about you, I would rather see more skyscrapers Grin.
zoo
December 21, 2007, 8:25 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

City should have done the right thing for this space in the first place, instead of this poorly planned and executed temporary use -- RFP it to developers! 2 great results? Likely more retail and residential, and it's on the tax rolls!!!

While COJ is RFP'ing this space, how about adding a bunch of other downtown, city-owned property to the list?!?!
second_pancake
December 21, 2007, 9:28 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Good article. I'm not really fond of parks in downtown...except for Friendship Fountain and Hemming Plaza. It would have been better for that place to have a skyscraper than a park:Smiley. I'm not dislikng Mayor Peyton, he's OK, but his pocket park idea would not make this great city a destination. I don't know about you, I would rather see more skyscrapers Grin.

Great idea.  We should just keep building and building...more concrete and steel and lots and lots of glass to reflect all the sunlight we have her in Florida.  Screw plants.  All they do is make this world livable afterall Roll Eyes

I agree with 'zoo' in that the right thing should have been done in the first place.  But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.  We all know by now that no city or federal entity has the bigger picture in mind and it's all about immediate gratification for the here and now.  Do it now, worry about the effects later...when they come back and hit us over the head.

Being a nature-lover, I'm all for the parks.  The more grass and shade (provided by living trees) in an urban area, the better, in my opinion.  But they're useless if it's hard to get to, there's nothing to do when I'm there, and I'm so worried about the homeless dude next to me that the smell of my fear overpowers the diesel fumes.

Incidently, you gotta love the way that they put the fence around the side with the Salvation Army, cause you know, THAT will keep those vagrants out, lol.  What genius came up with that one??
stephendare
December 21, 2007, 9:48 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

hindsight might be 20/20, but mule like obstinance is simply exasperating.  I must say that the over all childish insistence that the project was gonna be a go, dog gone it simply because the JEDC could feel it was the right thing to do has a particularly sour aftertaste that swizzles annoyingly with the homeless tonic water.

Of course, having such a luminous beacon of planning and reality as noted building demolisher Jack Dynamite there to pound the table and bellow architectural sounding balderdash throughout the meeting certainly bolstered the cities argument that the best way to bring more people to downtown was to tear down all of the buildings.

Naturally the proven aftermath, predicted by every single person who doesnt function in the ivory towers of Dynamite, JEDCO, and Poppycock inc, will only confirm the conventional wisdom that they just didnt spend enough money or surgically strike enough of those old buildings with their magical dynamite wand.

Who wants to vote that the planning crew be hauled in front of a council committee to explain why the fabulous main street pocket park turned out to be the homeless magnet everyone predicted it was going to be but they built it anyways?
jbm32206
December 21, 2007, 9:51 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Well said Stephen....however, I feel that even if they were hauled in front of the council, it wouldn't make much difference...they're kind of one of the same these days.
stephendare
December 21, 2007, 10:02 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

JBM

Nice to see you again, and happy holidays!

Surely there must be at least ONE councilman with an interest in tracking the progress of the city's seemingly inexhaustible boondoggle fund (its kind of like a petty cash account for megalomaniacs).

Certainly one!?!?
downtownparks
December 21, 2007, 10:02 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Pancake, you are correct, hindsight is 20/20. In this instance, no hindsight was needed.

Here is our discussion about it in June of 2006.

http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2428

An RFP could have been issues for workforce style housing, with green elements as a required part of the request. Lakelander, on other threads on Metjax, even went so far as to find examples of buildings with green spaces built in. And as we also know, roof top terraces with live greenery are quickly becoming popular.
downtownparks
December 21, 2007, 10:04 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Here is more discussion about it a year Ago

http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3756
Lunican
December 21, 2007, 10:41 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Here is our official stance on the issue from December 2006:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/280/115/
stephendare
December 21, 2007, 10:49 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

So how do we arrange an inquiry into this boondoggle?
second_pancake
December 21, 2007, 10:55 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Ok.  So everyone had all of this information and all of these ideas and when when was a vote instituted?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.  How was the decision made? And was all of this information presented?  Was it brought to the attention of other Jax citizens?  Honestly, and maybe this is because I'm now displaced from my natural element and surviving in Bay-Ghettos at the moment, but I heard nothing about this...not even anything promoting it, and you know the city is all about promoting their ideas regardless of how idiotic they may be.  I'm more than a little concerned that there seem to be so many people against city council's decisions and yet I don't see a single protestor on the street, no opposition being reported on the news, and nothing in the papers (again, not even anything that would support these decisions).  What's going on here?  It seems to me that with all of these great ideas that MetJax members have/had (and those were great, btw), someone would pick up on it...someone with political clout if we're lucky, and just run with it.  If nothing else at least it would be publicized.  If I hadn't found this site, I would be in the dark on all of this...still.
Ocklawaha
December 21, 2007, 11:05 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Quote
If I hadn't found this site, I'd be in the dark on all of this...still.

Welcome to the CAST Second Pancake... All of us around here are "in the dark"
Rocky Horror: Creature of the night

Brad Majors: Creature of the night?

Dr. Frank-N-Furter: Creature of the night

Magenta: Creature of the night

Riff Raff: Creature of the night

Columbia: Creature of the night

Rocky Horror: Creature of the night

Janet Weiss: Creature of the night!

Ocklawaha
second_pancake
December 21, 2007, 11:20 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Ok...not really sure what to make of that.  I'm going to assume there was some little clever emoticon or something that was supposed to be diplayed after your name and respond with a,  Wink.

Btw, too funny...I just noticed in the first pic the truck behind the homeless reads, "Focused on Excellence."  ROFLMAO.  Very nice.  Much like a pic I took on the streets of Salt Lake City, UT in which a homeless man was sleeping in alcove at the entrance to a business and the sign on the door above him read, "Advertising."

Second_Pancake:  Creature of the Day...in bed by 9pm ;-)
JeffreyS
December 21, 2007, 5:47 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

The pocket parks Downtown present opportunities to evolve into more of a walkable urban core.  This park was ill conceived but maybe the diverse retail and restaurants need the squares first.

Park filled with Vagrants
Metro Jacksonville speaks out
What will happen now
avonjax
December 21, 2007, 9:23 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

JeffreyS
What will happen now?
Probably what has been happening all along.
The city will have their heads up their personal places of darkness.
And the rest of the citizens of Jax will be in the same boat as second_pancake, IN THE DARK.
And for casual observer driving by the pocket park on main,  how could they notice a park that doesn't even look like a park. Maybe a surface lot with trees?
The media in Jax never covers issues like this.
But from all the disturbance at JTA it appears the powers that be actually read what is written at sites like this.
If only more people would tune in they may learn something about these crazy projects before they begin.
Ocklawaha
December 22, 2007, 1:19 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

"Creature of the Night," is a feature song and funny piece from The infamous:

Rocky Horror Picture Show

Something that more and more, I feel fits our City Hall, better then Riff Raff's Tux.

Ocklawaha
stephendare
December 22, 2007, 4:53 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

All fun and games aside, its time to establish some accountability for the billions of dollars of money squandered in the redevelopment rashes that have plagued the baby soft asses of City Hall for the past thirty years.

Can Jack Dynamite please point out which of his block demolishing schemes has ever resulted in a success downtown?

Can the JEDC explain why they continue to follow this maddeningly random herky jerky approach to redevelopment downtown?

The fundamentals have got to be handled.  Adequate lighting.  Adequate security.  A comprehensive social services program, wayfaring signage and a friendly environment for pedestrians and customers (rather than the current 'kill the customer' policies enacted by the parking department)

But rather than that, weve spent billions tearing down buildings and courting developments that fail to pan out.

Where is the accountability?


Ocklawaha
December 22, 2007, 5:35 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Hey, I know, let's have a spelling bee! Here's a thought, why not fill the new parklette with art, modern art, something that speaks to our TOTALLY MODERN City. The "NEW" world, not a scrap of history... Let's do it big. Here are just a few of my ideas for park statues in downtown.


Mayor Jake, maybe place the Skyway over his head?

Park benches featuring our infamous leaders?

Moreover, what to do with this "park". I was up by the library the other day and thought since I had parked to the East, I'd cut through the new park. NOT! There is no way to do that, no angled walks, no steps over the walls. So how to fix the mess that has been made?


Some of the Parks fair residents, as if they were working in stone?

Maybe a statue to proclaim to the World that this park is a piece of... S%*T?

Maybe a couple of Springfield JTA bus shelter size kiosks that the City can lease to vendors? How about adding some walks that angle toward the Library entry or the park center? Maybe a nice seating wall, something to look at, like maybe a marker showing the various buildings they have torn down? Up at the top level a nice cascade of water coming down a series of mini falls, a real fake stream. A micro-plaza with interactive fountains that squirt water, bud or Southern comfort. Better yet, start the stream at the East end, and a giant statue of JAKE GODBOLD dressed as "Boss Hogg" pointing to the Skyway with one hand and hosing the stream with the other. I always did like those fountains with a little pissing kid.



Statue of Jacksonvilles concerned citizens?

In honor of all Jacksonville leadership?

Ocklawaha
gatorback
December 22, 2007, 5:56 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

The city permits vendor locations all over the downtown.  Last time I checked the city had 32 locations( down from 39--I think) for street vendors.  I know Hemming Plaza has 2 street vendor locations one at the north east near the library and one at the south west near the skyway.  I don't think there's a vendor location at the new pocket park.  Would a vendor make any money there?  I guess if the vendor sold 1/2 spent cigarettes and practically empty beer bottles at .50 to a $1.00 they would. Smiley  I bet one of those pay toilets I see people getting married in in NYC would make a ton of money!

http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_e51/ide2007.12.20.01.29.24.html

"The Bride Wore Two-Ply"   Cheesy
heights unknown
December 22, 2007, 8:29 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I think the best solution is to hand grenade it; no, just kidding.  Obviously this park is a result of poor planning; and whoever planned this park needs to be fired.  You need some type of communitive spark around such places to feed in the people that will make it a true park; without the people, it is a "pocket failure." 

Being that the park is a failure, you can do one of two things, actually three, either build a ramp from the library over main street to the park, or put in attractions, statues, or even some type small scale venue or restaurant to attract people, or bulldoze it and wait for someone to purchase it or wait until retail, restaurants, etc. spring up around it to support the park or just sell it and let something else be built on the property.

Heights Unknown
gatorback
December 22, 2007, 8:39 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Build a fence around it.  That'll cause peole to want to get into it.  Keeping people out has always caused people to want to go in.  Check out the fence around this park.  Okay, it's exclusive.  Yes it's private.  Yes it's the only private park in NYC and in fact the only private park in New York State!  The people who own the apartments around Gramercy are all Tenants in Common and they alone own the park.  You gotta have a key to get in or apparently a car.  I asked one lady to let me in and she said "but how would you get out."  Drew Berrymore, Modonna and Sandra Bullack all live there and jog in the park.  (Drew gets her wheet grass juice around the corner.)

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dgramercy%2BPark%2Bfence%2Bpictures&w=492&h=380&imgurl=www.startsandfits.com%2Fimages%2Fgramercy_fence.jpg&size=92.9&name=gramercy_fence.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.startsandfits.com%2F2005%2F03%2Fwhoops.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.startsandfits.com%2F2005%2F03%2Fwhoops.html&p=gramercy+park+fence&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=14
thelakelander
December 22, 2007, 9:16 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Ock, that's a nice collection of statues.  Something like those would help pull in more people than the amount using the park today..
NJ to JAX WHAT DID I DO?
December 23, 2007, 12:18 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Two of the best public parks I have ever been to in my life are:

Stewart Park in Ithaca, NY

and

Washington Square Park in NYC

Why Stewart Park is a success:  Great Picnic area.  The park is on the lakefront of Cayuga Lake. It is mostly grass, with sporadic grills and picnic tables throughout.  Therefore, people set up shop for a big barbecue on a Sunday afternoon and then use the space for soccer, frisbee, volleyball etc after the meal.  Also, Ithaca is full of hippies so periodic lake front drum concerts go down.  There are also places to go biking, fishing, duck feeding, and playground equipment for kids at the park.  In general, it is a fantastic place to be any day of the week.  It is a center for the community.  There is such a wide variety of things to do there for such a wide variety of people, all ages can be found: kids, college students, parents, grandparents.... a great mix!  I miss having communities that are built around parks like this here in Jacksonville.  Ithaca, a small college town of about 30000 people actually provided me a higher quality of life than here in Jacksonville...a town of 700000 people.  Believe it or not, there are more great ideas coming from those 30000 people than the 700000 people here in Jax.

And now another city with more great ideas than Jax....NYC.  Washington Park was a success because it does have a great fountain and archway.  A place where people can take pictures and film movies!  But for me its greatest feature was people watching and Joey Joey.  Joey Joey was a street performer from the Bronx.  Every Saturday night in the summer, I would see him putting on his show in Washington Park: riding on a unicycle, juggling flaming torches, making jokes about New Jersey, and entertaining people with his NYC attitude and style.  His act was appealing to all ages, all ethnicities, locals, and tourists.

In comparison to these parks, the pocket park is literally nothing to speak of.  And this is what I notice about Jax parks in general.  The COJ website brags about having one of the largest park systems in the country.  Well, for such a large city, I would hope so!  But most of the parks listed are very small, out of public view, and barely used by anyone.  For instance, I live in Baymeadows and the best local "park" I have is the abandoned golf course there.  And the only park in my mind in Jax that has appeal and is the center of a community is the Memorial Park in Riverside.  That park is great.  Also, Riverfront Park in San Marco is cool, but way too small. Am I wrong about this?  Is there a cool park anywhere in Jax where people go to hang out and be seen?  To spend an afternoon?  To have a picnic?  To take their kids?  To read a book?  To play soccer?  To play bocci?  Is this the twilight zone?
gatorback
December 23, 2007, 4:20 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Mandarin, back in the day!


South of Green Cove Springs today!

Ocklawaha

What if we put one of these jobbers.  It would be an attraction right.  People on their way thru could stop and ride the Free Train...would the JTA ever go for something like this. (A transportation system that goes nowhere with no rider ship? ha!)  How much would it cost us to put in a lil choo choo train like this in that park.

The more I think about it the more I think it works.  It could be a "Mass Transit Education Center" where we teach the young and the old about mass transit and the benefits there of.  There's probably federal dollars available for something like a transportation re-eduction center.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I57Kk8jlqE4&feature=related

It'd bet totally awesome.  The little ones that go to the library could stop next door and ride one of the 7 1/4 thingys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63lVrFQtr2Y&feature=related

We could total keep the statue concept as well.  They could be transportation dinosaurs like this concrete car



These are so cute and available

thelakelander
December 24, 2007, 2:59 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Two of the best public parks I have ever been to in my life are:

Stewart Park in Ithaca, NY

and

Washington Square Park in NYC

Why Stewart Park is a success:  Great Picnic area.  The park is on the lakefront of Cayuga Lake. It is mostly grass, with sporadic grills and picnic tables throughout.  Therefore, people set up shop for a big barbecue on a Sunday afternoon and then use the space for soccer, frisbee, volleyball etc after the meal.  Also, Ithaca is full of hippies so periodic lake front drum concerts go down.  There are also places to go biking, fishing, duck feeding, and playground equipment for kids at the park.  In general, it is a fantastic place to be any day of the week.  It is a center for the community.  There is such a wide variety of things to do there for such a wide variety of people, all ages can be found: kids, college students, parents, grandparents.... a great mix!  I miss having communities that are built around parks like this here in Jacksonville.  Ithaca, a small college town of about 30000 people actually provided me a higher quality of life than here in Jacksonville...a town of 700000 people.  Believe it or not, there are more great ideas coming from those 30000 people than the 700000 people here in Jax.

And now another city with more great ideas than Jax....NYC.  Washington Park was a success because it does have a great fountain and archway.  A place where people can take pictures and film movies!  But for me its greatest feature was people watching and Joey Joey.  Joey Joey was a street performer from the Bronx.  Every Saturday night in the summer, I would see him putting on his show in Washington Park: riding on a unicycle, juggling flaming torches, making jokes about New Jersey, and entertaining people with his NYC attitude and style.  His act was appealing to all ages, all ethnicities, locals, and tourists.

In comparison to these parks, the pocket park is literally nothing to speak of.  And this is what I notice about Jax parks in general.  The COJ website brags about having one of the largest park systems in the country.  Well, for such a large city, I would hope so!  But most of the parks listed are very small, out of public view, and barely used by anyone.  For instance, I live in Baymeadows and the best local "park" I have is the abandoned golf course there.  And the only park in my mind in Jax that has appeal and is the center of a community is the Memorial Park in Riverside.  That park is great.  Also, Riverfront Park in San Marco is cool, but way too small. Am I wrong about this?  Is there a cool park anywhere in Jax where people go to hang out and be seen?  To spend an afternoon?  To have a picnic?  To take their kids?  To read a book?  To play soccer?  To play bocci?  Is this the twilight zone?

Memorial Park, Boone Park and Riverside Park are the three that I can think of, with Memorial Park fitting the description more of a public square.

Hemming once was and still has the potential to gain its lost luster, but its being ruined by a lack of foresight for the new uses coming in around it.  Imo, the next urban public space to regain its lost luster will probably be the chain of parks lining Hogan's Creek, between Downtown and Springfield.  There's been a significant turn around there in the past two or three years.
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 9:52 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

And of course this still remains to be figured out.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 12:56 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Quote from: Metro Jacksonville
The destiny of the Main Street pocket park was predicted by urbanites long ago and now the prophecy has come true. Today Metro Jacksonville suggests some ways to turn a lemon into lemonade.

So, who died and left Metro jacksonville to say that the parks are lemons to begin with.

Why do you think the parks belong to you and that you should have any say who uses them?
thelakelander
May 13, 2008, 1:13 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

umm, let me take a stab at it....because the public (ex. me/you, etc.) paid/pay for them?

Park's in general aren't lemons, but most would agree that this particular location is one instance where we would have been better off spending $700k of taxpayer money somewhere else.
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 1:23 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Quote from: Metro Jacksonville
The destiny of the Main Street pocket park was predicted by urbanites long ago and now the prophecy has come true. Today Metro Jacksonville suggests some ways to turn a lemon into lemonade.

So, who died and left Metro jacksonville to say that the parks are lemons to begin with.

Why do you think the parks belong to you and that you should have any say who uses them?

tom dont be a dick.  its a public park and we paid for it.

surely there is someone in austin texas you can find to put in their place today.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 1:25 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

not being one, it's public they have as much right to it as the rest of us don't you think?
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 1:28 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

well, when you make it back to jacksonville, and can actually see what your talking about, why dont you decide then?
thelakelander
May 13, 2008, 1:29 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Who are they?  Everyone has a right to use it and I would hope more people would.  However, that does not justify the expense if you could have done better elsewhere with the same amount of money.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 1:43 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Will do.  Living on the street is tough.  Nobody wants you.  You can't get a job.  You can't afford to ride the bus.  Nobody wants you on their property. You're pretty much screwed all around.  And if it's a public park then let them have it.  If it cost $1M, $2M, I'm sorry that's just the way it is I'm sure one of the good old boys got the contract poured a lot of concrete and paid taxes and employed their friends.

I see this one asian lady everybody at the bus stop.  With her bags.  That could be you.  It practically was me if not for friends, but not everybody has that support network. 
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 1:49 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I think the question is what is the appropriate use for the tax dollars.

Its insane that we don't have a better solution for how to deal with the homeless.  We don't even do the basic, free, easy or smart things to do for them, and we probably need to be laying out cash for a day center.

However that doesnt mean that we should convert over 100 million dollar projects with specific uses in mind instead does it?  Like the library or the pocket parks.  If they are public, then we should honor the billions of dollars of tax payer money that has been spent trying to create a welcoming safe environment downtown that provides a lot of amenities to the citizens.

Mismatching our projects with other uses, as in this example doesnt honor the monies that we have taken from the citizens (us) in order to do exactly that.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 1:53 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Who is they?  Everyone has a right to use it and I would hope more people would.  However, that does not justify the expense if you could have done better elsewhere with the same amount of money.

Jacksonville?  Justify the expense.  Listen to what you're saying.  lol
thelakelander
May 13, 2008, 2:09 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

That doesn't mean its right.  You strive to do better.  If there were not people who would strive to make better uses out of the city's resources it would be worse off today.  For residents and the homeless.  Don't get trick into accepting status quo.  If that were the case, people like me would still be forced to sit at the back of the bus or pick cotton with no pay.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 11:18 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park


I salute the taxpayers that elected those council members that built that park because if just one person found a peaceful moment from the tragic lives they live, which you are only lucky to not have been dealt, then to me it  was worth it.
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 11:23 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

So you think its perfectly ok that we spent a million dollars for a homeless shelter and we couldnt even get a roof over their heads?

wow tom.  thats kindof unsympathetic to the homeless.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 11:30 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Spend the night at the Salvation Army stephen, and let us let us know how the homeless feel because until you've spent the night in their slippers, you have no idea what it is to be homeless.
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 11:37 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

At least there is a roof there.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 11:40 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Not every homeless person wants to stay there as you are very aware of.  At least the park gives them a little bit safer place.  Just talked to 3 homeless tonight.  Each day is a challenge and that night is just one aspect of their life my friend.
stephendare
May 13, 2008, 11:43 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

thats great gator.  While we are at it, why not abandon your apartment?   Im sure one of those three people you talked to tonight would enjoy it one day at a time as well.
gatorback
May 13, 2008, 11:50 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Okay, fine, why stop at that park, or my apartment, let's undo some of Theodore Roosevelt's achievements as well.  Ex conservation.  Forget the national forests in the West, screw the reserved lands for public use, and all he fostered as far as irrigation projects go.  Let's just go there now Stephen.
stephendare
May 14, 2008, 12:00 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

awesome.  Now we have a zombie nation.  Satisfied?

Can we get back to the original point now or do you have minimum hours requirement for hijacking certification?
gatorback
May 14, 2008, 12:10 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

It's a nice park.  People would give their first born to have a nice place as that.  What's the bottom line per capita for that park.  A buck?  What's that over 20 years?  A nickle. 
stephendare
May 14, 2008, 12:12 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Have you read the rest of this site gator? And its (meaning the pocket park) not very nice anymore actually.  Its mostly full of dogshit.

The city is short on funds, the money could have gone to a better cause, Jacksonville has the largest park system in the entire united states, and one of the points of this website is to encourage density and other concepts that make city cores attractive enough that they compete with sprawl.

Many people would simply not come downtown to see a million dollar litter box.

Or maybe they will.  If it turns out they dont, we should be able to spring for a weekly doggie doo clearing.
tufsu1
May 14, 2008, 8:08 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Stephen...when was the last time you were in that park....they installed doggie clean-up bags several months ago and its been much better ever since!
thelakelander
May 14, 2008, 8:29 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I would post images I took this past Saturday, but I don't think its good to put them online.  Let's just say looks can be deceiving up close.  If you're visiting the space, just watch where you're walking and avoid the dark green patches of grass because they are a little more fertilized than the others.

While I still believe it was a bad idea of putting a park in this location and the spending $700k on it, its there now and I would hope the city can find a way to make it attract a multitude of people to really use and enjoy it.  At this point, its just scenery for cars driving down Main and an outdoor bathroom from dogs and residents that don't use the doggie clean-up bags.  Whether its becomes a picnic area with benches, pavilions and tot lots, a sculpture garden, farmers/vendor's market or a dog park, we need to find a way to get better use out of our investment.
heights unknown
May 14, 2008, 11:02 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I would say get rid of it and build something else that can be of better public use on that piece of property; movie theater, park with sculpture and statues, etc., anything but a doggie pocket park.  Our city leaders don't know how to be creative it seems.

Heights Unknown
stephendare
May 14, 2008, 1:17 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

It seems like it would be a pretty easy thing to realize that a park with programmed active use is going to be more utilized than one without it.

Skate Parks, a Roque stand, films, a small restaurant and bike rental place.....it seems a no brainer.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,1666.msg22099.html#msg22099
thelakelander
June 23, 2008, 10:22 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Its official.  The city now considers this space complete.

Quote
Mayor John Peyton was able to get the weather to cooperate Thursday afternoon and officially opened Main Street Park across from the Library. City Council member Don Redman, Carol Worsham of HDR (the designers of the park), Peyton, Jacksonville Economic Development Commission Executive Director Ron Barton, Roslyn Mixon-Phillips, director of the City's Recreation and Community Services Department and JEDC Deputy Executive Director Paul Crawford, of JEDC cut the ribbon the park. The project included converting a parking lot and features a series of grass terraces lined with oak trees and date palms.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=50277
copperfiend
June 23, 2008, 10:28 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Check out the Main St Park on the Street View of Google Earth.
blizz01
June 23, 2008, 11:00 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I read last week that MOCA was involved in possibly getting a sculpture moved there - is that correct?  Of course, that may just be like putting lipstick on a pig at this point........
blizz01
June 23, 2008, 11:05 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Here's that story:

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=50230&text=sculpture

I assume it's the same place.
thelakelander
June 23, 2008, 11:22 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Yes, the old sculpture that was in front of the 550 Building on Water Street, will be relocated to the empty brick space in the pocket park. I guess its better than nothing.  Its interesting to compare this space with Memorial Park in Riverside.  I'm sure the excuses will role in but we would benefit by taking a few lessons from the park planners of the early 20th century.
gatorback
June 23, 2008, 2:13 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

I worked at the 550 Water Street building for 7 years.  God, I hated looking at that sculpter every day.  I'd rather see the homeless then that old thing.
zoo
July 22, 2008, 8:50 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

do you think the grass sections are 39' wide? i'm thinking about bringing out some poles and a net and setting up a volleyball game during a weekday lunch (if the dog mess isn't too bad)! anyone interested, pm me.
thelakelander
July 22, 2008, 8:58 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

It wouldn't hurt, but you will need to go around with a pooper scooper first. 
RiversideGator
July 22, 2008, 11:55 pm
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

Great idea.  That would be one way to make use of the empty space. 

I see though that the local dogs have decided to deposit in the park their opinion as to the park.   Cheesy
gatorback
July 23, 2008, 12:13 am
Re: Salvaging the Main Street Pocket Park

do you think the grass sections are 39' wide? i'm thinking about bringing out some poles and a net and setting up a volleyball game during a weekday lunch (if the dog mess isn't too bad)! anyone interested, pm me.

Great idea!

Seriously, you might need to bring cash to bail yourself out of jail as I'm sure JSo would have a problem with your plan.
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