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Taking advantage of what we already have Print E-mail
Monday, 13 August 2007

This presentation outlines Metro Jacksonville's solution for decreasing the cost of JTA's Bus Rapid Transit proposal, while creating an overall mass transit system that works best within our neighborhoods.

Slide 1: JTA's bus rapid transit plan will cost taxpayers an estimated $750 million dollars.  When complete, it will provide rapid bus service from downtown to Wilson Blvd on the Westside, Baymeadows Road on the Southside, Gateway Mall to the north and Regency Mall to the east.

 

Slide 2: When complete, the system will offer mass transit riders several things we don't currently enjoy today.

 

 

WHY YOU SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH JTA'S BRT PLAN

Slide 3:  With that said, this is where the proposal falls apart.  First, it won't be fully operational until 2025.  This image captures Blanding Blvd, near Orange Park Mall today.  Imagine this scene in 2025.

 

 

Slide 4: While imagining that Blanding scene, don't forget that even in 2025, this bus rapid transit system won't even reach the most congested parts of Blanding.  It also won't reach today's rapidly growing areas like Nocatee, North Jacksonville near the airport, or even the Avenues Mall. 

 

 

Slide 5: Blight is another major concern with JTA's bus rapid transit proposal.  Several parts of the system will have to be elevated to cross existing rail lines and major highways.  This means in these areas, BRT will introduce skyway like infrastructure in many neighborhoods bordering the system, such as Avondale, Murray Hill, Arlington and the Northside.

 

 

Slide 6: Despite the $750 million dollar investment, the BRT system will still not run on 100% dedicated busways.  In some areas, BRT will still be integrated with regular vehicular traffic.  This means it will still be subject to vehicular gridlock and congestion.

 

 

Slide 7:  Many local planners also believe that this bus rapid transit system will spur "Transit Oriented Development" throughout Jacksonville's neighborhoods.  Unfortunately, the history of BRT paints a different picture.  You can't have TOD without good "T".  It's well known that developers are less apt to invest millions in transit oriented development, if the transit system that development is constructed around can pick up and move on the drop of a dime.  BRT's "flexibility" is the primary reason it is an inferior mode of transit if part of your goal in creating a system is to encourage redevelopment along it's path.

 

 

Slide 8: JTA's BRT proposal is very damaging for downtown.  Not only does it replace hundreds of parallel parking spaces with lanes that have buses running on them every 90 seconds during peak hours, it also parallel's the $184 million dollar skyway.  By having BRT stops at every skyway station, the system eliminates the need to transfer or use the skyway at all.  So if we are adding up costs, we might as well add the $184 million dollars spent on the skyway to the overall cost of this bus rapid transit system.

 

 

Slide 9:  The reality in America is that buses come with a negative stigma.  Just because attempts are made to make a bus look more like a train, you can't trick the people who will use them.  A pig with lipstick is still a nasty dirty pig. 

 

 

Slide 10: One of the most damaging parts of the bus rapid transit plan is its total disregard for the Northside, despite its residents making up over 50% of JTA's current ridership.  The Northside route parallels I-95, a highway that was originally constructed by the Jacksonville Expressway Authority which effectively separated blacks from whites in the 1950s.  If it isn't bad enough that the bus rapid route will only further isolate Northside communities from one another, residents also don't live, work or play on I-95. 

In the graphic above, notice the Northside's major employers and destinations highlighted in yellow.  Also notice the red line representing the bus rapid transit plan's route and station locations.  Transit has been used in other communities to bring neighborhoods together and create economic development opportunities in places that have been ignored by their city governments for decades.  The north route only succeeds in moving buses quickly from downtown to Gateway Mall.

 

 

Slide 11: As said earlier, the bus rapid transit system will cost taxpayers at least $750 million dollars.  Despite the claims that railroad companies are hard to deal with, the plan still involves JTA having to purchase rail right of way to run bus lines near Philips Highway and Roosevelt Blvd.  Spending money on this right-of-way, plus constructing an expressway for buses will easily costs more than potentially negotiating with railroads to purchase or use portions of these double tracked rail lines for mass transit.  By constructing BRT next to existing rail lines, we will miss the opportunity to save millions by using what we already have in place, as well as the chance for a superior mode of transit.

 

 

Slide 12: Perhaps the most damaging aspect of JTA's bus rapid transit proposal is its insane costs.  Today, it's estimated to cost a total of $750 million dollars, or $26 million per mile.  Let's not forget we still have 18 years of inflation to go, meaning this system will easily top $1 billion dollars.  With numbers this high, it does not matter what the benefits of bus rapid transit are.  That's all meaningless when the bus system costs just as much (if not more) as traditional light rail.

 

 

EXAMPLES OF BRT IN OTHER CITIES

Slide 13: The Las Vegas Max is a great example of efficient and affordable bus rapid transit.  This system only cost Vegas taxpayers $2 million per mile because it was constructed without purchasing right-of-way or constructing new expressways for buses (called busways by transit planners).

 

 

Slide 14: The Pittsburgh West Busway is one of the dedicated busway systems that has been touted by JTA in the past.  This is the type of bus rapid transit that the system here will be based on.  This system's length had to be shortened to five miles because the land acquisition and construction costs got out of hand.  In the end, it cost Pittsburgh taxpayers $55 million dollars per mile.

 

 

EXAMPLES OF AFFORDABLE RAIL IN OTHER CITIES

Slide 15: Metro Jacksonville's solution is an affordable one.  We suggest a mass transit system that uses existing rail, where available, and bus rapid transit in areas where rail does not run.  Before we can explain this concept, we must first defeat the argument or perspective that Jacksonville is too spread out and small for rail transit.  According to the US Census Bureau, Jacksonville's density and metropolitan population is already larger than many cities enjoying rail today.

 

 

Slide 16: We also must defeat the notion that rail costs more than bus systems.  In any type of transit system the acquisition of land and construction of infrastructure costs the most.  This is the reason JTA's bus rapid transit budget is spiraling out of control.  Several cities have discovered that by using what they already have in place, with new technology, they can get a local rail systems up and running for a fraction of the cost of the dedicated busways.

Austin is currently in the process of creating a 32 mile commuter rail system that will introduce light rail type service.  Because the right-of-way was already owned by the transportation authority, Austin's system will only cost $3.5 million per mile, for a grand total of $112 million.  That's a far cry from the $26 million per mile JTA wants to spend for its 29 mile bus rapid transit system.  Also proving that TOD's are better encouraged by fixed rail transit, Austin's line is already spurring infill development such as the Satillo Lofts, shown above.

 

 

Slide 17: The San Diego Sprinter rail system is currently being constructed for $440 million.  Although the transit authority already had ownership of this 22 mile rail line, it cost $20 million per mile because the project involves pulling up all the existing track, raising the grade, and laying down new track infrastructure.  Despite the extra work involved, it's still $6 million dollars cheaper per mile than the bus system that JTA would like to introduce to our streets.

 

 

Slide 18: Last but not least is the Ottawa O-Train.  Known as the North American king of BRT, this community put together a pilot rail project for $21 million by using existing rail tying in a university with it's BRT lines and downtown.  All three of these examples are living proof that if you can use existing infrastructure, you can get rail transit up and running at a minimal cost compared to the bloated transportation projects we have become accustomed too.

 

 

INTEGRATING RAIL WITH BUS RAPID TRANSIT

Slide 19: Because two of JTA's bus rapid transit lines parallel rail corridors, it gives us the opportunity to take advantage of existing infrastructure.  One of those things we can take advantage of is the effect Orlando's commuter rail deal will have on the "A" line, which parallels Roosevelt Blvd.  As a part of the Orlando deal, CSX will relocate a major portion of freight traffic over to the "S" line, which travels through Baldwin. 

Instead of purchasing additional right-of-way and building a bus expressway on the Westside, we should look at the possibility of piggy backing off Orlando's deal and potentially purchasing or leasing a portion of the "A" line, at least from downtown to Orange Park.  If we were able to pull a deal similar to Orlando's, we could potentially save over $100 million by not having to purchase additional rightway and avoiding busway construction on the Southwest corridor.

 

 

Slide 20: As shown with the Austin, San Diego, and Ottawa commuter rail systems, rail can become quite affordable when you already own the right-of-way.  From downtown to Gateway Mall, the City of Jacksonville already owns an abandoned rail corridor.  If you look at the graphic on the right, you'll also notice that this corridor (green) travels where Northside residents live, work and play, unlike the proposed Northside BRT route (red).

 

 

Slide 21: Let's not forget that fixed transit is a better facilitator for quality transit oriented development.  To illustrate the potential of TODs along the S-Line corridor, take a look at this aerial, just east of I-95 and north of Shands Jacksonville.

 

 

Slide 22:  Looking at the same aerial, lets break down property ownership.  Everything in yellow is Shands Jacksonville and everything in green is City of Jacksonville property.  The light green line is the city's S-Line rail corridor and the red area is known as the Bloody Block, one of the most crime infested sections of the Northside.  For comparisons sake, we've also highlighted the proposed northern BRT line paralleling I-95.  The sections in blue will be elevated to cross existing interchanges.

 

 

Slide 23: Assuming that Shands Jacksonville is successful in its wishes to redevelop the Bloody Block, by implementing a rail line through the area and using the surrounding city owned land, a large scale transit oriented development could replace a largely blighted section of town.  If designed properly, it could also reconnect several neighborhoods, become a front door to Shands Jacksonville and introduce needed affordable housing and retail in the area.  This type of opportunity simply does not exist with the concept of bus rapid transit.

 

 

Slide 24: Despite the S-line being the perfect corridor for mass transit, the city plans to convert the corridor into a jogging trail.  Before we completely eliminate the S-line from potential transit use, let's not forget that it is 60', meaning it's wide enough to accommodate rail and a recreational path.  By using the S-line corridor instead of building BRT along I-95, we can save at least $47 million dollars.  This is what we would call.... taking advantage of what we already have.

 

 

Slide 25: When it comes to downtown, the skyway already serves it.  Instead of having bus lanes that parallel the system, it should be made to only connect with the skyway's terminal points.  By doing this, riders will be feed into the skyway, thus complimenting the peoplemover's purpose, instead of competing with it for riders.  By eliminating duplicating lines and stops, we also reduce that bloated $750 million dollar cost estimate by at least $25 million dollars.

 

CONCLUSION

Slide 26: So in conclusion, it's not as much about bus rapid transit versus rail as it is about taking advantage of things we already have in place.  Because three of the bus rapid transit corridors parallel rail lines, JTA also doesn't have to start from scratch.  The only thing that would change along the chosen corridors would be an upgrade from bus technology to rail. 

 

 

GENERAL INFORMATION

This detail taken from JTA's Technology Assessment Report for BRT illustrates how elevated portions of bus expressways will grace our landscape.  For a visual view, imagine the skyway, only twice the size to handle two way bus traffic.

 

 

This cost estimate sheet was taken from the report as well.  When it was released, the overall cost estimate was $580 million.  By taking advantage of the skyway, existing rail lines and the S-line corridor we've highlighted areas in yellow where we would be able to significantly slice the bloated cost estimate of the bus rapid transit proposal.

 

 

 

New Jersey's RiverLine system illustrates how DMU rail vehicles can travel on existing rail, as well as in the streets with cars like traditional light rail systems.  It is Metro Jacksonville's belief from the information gathered over the past few years, that it would be cheaper for us to implement something like this in certain corridors than to build bus rapid transit from scratch.  It is also our belief that something like this is more likely to attract choice riders and stimulate quality transit oriented developments.

 

 

 

 
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>> 17 Comments
hanjin1
August 13, 2007, 8:47 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

Let's face it. JTA will not let BRT go and they surely won't rethink any of their plans. It seems there is nothing any of us citizens can do about it. I wonder when this BRT thing is constructed, will the people at JTA actually ride this thing as well? Probably not because they won't live near any access points to it, "Damn we should have done that rail thing 25 years ago"
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 9:02 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

There's a lot us citizens can do about it.  For one, we can continue to speak out and educate people about this and keep the council from giving final approval to JTA to spend their $100 million of BJP money on BRT right-of-way.

Second, despite JTA's dreams, this thing still needs a lot of money from the Federal level.  That's another avenue we can take this fight to.

Also, this type of thing has been successfully pulled off in the past, elsewhere.  In Kansas City, a group of residents were able to successfully get light rail approved by local voters, which was in direct opposition to that city's transit authority's plans for BRT.

So the most critical thing, is to never give up hope and continue the education process for residents, JTA planners and city officials.
big ben
August 13, 2007, 9:52 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

i meant to quote something from the article above, but i can't find it now.  it was something in the "take advantage of what we already have" section (if that was even quoted correctly).  anyway, i don't mean to sound like my former city is a shining example, but i believe st. louis' metrolink system was started using a federal funds-matching program.

"The capital cost to build the initial phase of MetroLink was $465 million. Of that amount, $348 million was supplied by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA)." -Wikipedia

"MetroLink is an example of cooperation between local and federal governments. The light rail system has benefited from a unique marriage of local and federal partnering and a shared vision that has made the project a resounding success. When funding for MetroLink was being sought, planners realized that the local match to federal funds could be found right in the City's backyard. Fourteen miles of abandoned rail right-of-way, structures, tunnels in the downtown area and the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge, which spans the Mississippi River connecting the Missouri and Illinois region, were assessed at a value of more than $110 million and accepted as the local match of federal funding for this multi-million dollar infrastructure investment. Local political leadership working together with the federal government was the key to creating such a unique funding strategy. As a result, the St. Louis regions has a 21st century transportation system that is enjoying strong community support." -fmr StL Mayor Freeman Bosley, Jr, 1996.
http://www.mayors.org/USCM/us_mayor_newspaper/documents/08_26_96/documents/MetroLink_Is_Study_in_Cooperation_100396.html

basically, st. louis contributed existing rights of way assessed at $110 million for the project and the feds paid the rest of the $465 million of the original metrolink that opened in 1993, i believe (it's been expanded through local sales taxes since).  it's a good example of how to use what you already have.  i think i've said this before, but i don't think jacksonville has that much in usable assets.  i could be wrong, though.
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 10:11 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

Ock can provide further detail, but the St. Louis light rail system is also another recent rail system that was constructed for less per mile than our current bus rapid transit proposal. 

Quote
When funding for MetroLink was being sought, planners realized that the local match to federal funds could be found right in the City's backyard. Fourteen miles of abandoned rail right-of-way, structures, tunnels in the downtown area and the rail deck of the historic Eads Bridge, which spans the Mississippi River connecting the Missouri and Illinois region, were assessed at a value of more than $110 million and accepted as the local match of federal funding for this multi-million dollar infrastructure investment.

Seems like the 5 mile city owned abandoned S-line rail right-of-way and the existing overpasses at I-95 and MLK Parkway that are associated with it.
babble
August 13, 2007, 11:40 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

The concept of the Skyway is great. But the concept is no way finished (is it?) When the Skyway was put together did the City really think that The Prime Osborne was the marquee of the city and the route? Is there one logical reason the Skyway goes nowhere near the Stadium, Arena, Zoo, any of the museums, or any shopping areas. I have friends that say that it goes near The Landing. Well not really. Its almost 2 blocks from there. The Skyway is a great , just dont plan to go anywhere.
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 11:45 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

At a meeting with Metro Jacksonville a few months ago, Mayor Peyton stated it would not be a good reason to extend it because it could not handle the extra amount of riders it would get if it served the sports district.  I believe JTA isn't interested in extending it because of the overall costs for such a move.  Instead they believe local transit is more effective with BRT and trolley shaped buses running down downtown's streets today.
Steve
August 13, 2007, 12:07 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

The skyway does go near the landing - like you said, under two blocks.  Listen, with any transit system, you are not going to hit every destination on the nose - it's not possible.

Now, the think that makes the skyway seem miles awayt from the landing is the surface parking lot on one side, and the vacant lot on the other side (where Kuhn supposedly will build one of his projects sometime between now and 2025).  Imagine if this was retail and restaraunts, or even buildings for that matter - it wouldn't seem as long as it is now.
Captain Zissou
August 13, 2007, 12:13 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

I think one area that would experience huge growth due to Commuter rail, and not BRT, would be Murray Hill.  One TOD would really ignite the area and bring traffic to their already growing town center area.  That place is on the edge of a rebirth, and rail would definitely cause it to tip. 
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 12:17 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

More info on the Kansas City Light Rail situation:

Quote
Light Rail Plan Threatened with Legal Action
KANSAS CITY – Light-rail activists are threatening to sue Kansas City officials if they significantly change or delay the plan approved by voters in November. Lawyer Valerie Chastain, wife of light rail activist Clay Chastain, is representing her husband and the committee of petitioners for the voter-approved light rail initiative.

Clay Chastain said the city’s new mayor and new City Council would face legal action if any of the following conditions occurred: The new mayor does not take action on the initiative, the new City Council votes not to take action on the plan or to significantly change the plan, or the new Council tries to retract the initiative through the city charter.

The City Council heard reports from transportation experts on January 18, who said the voter-approved plan must be significantly revised in order to be legally and legislatively plausible. Assistant City Attorney Bill Geary said in a release that the council “is taking a rational and methodical approach to deal with the light-rail issue, in order to respect the will of the voters to provide light rail.” In response to the possible forthcoming litigation, Geary said, “The threat of a lawsuit does not impact the need for a revised plan.”

http://tomwarnereport.com/twr/twr_v4n4.html


Quote
Light Rail Support Growing With Local Business Leaders

The Kansas City Star reports that local business leaders — historically opposed to every single light rail proposal in the past — are now experiencing a change of heart. While this most likely has everything to do with the potential dollar signs they're seeing related to private development along the line, it's still a step in the right direction. It could be a double-edged sword, however, if these leaders feel compelled to pressure the city into changing the approach for routing or technology. Most impressive are the words of Tom Hoenig, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City:

"People say light rail is a subsidy. But I watched the Grandview Triangle, and the amount of money spent redesigning it gives you a sense of the cost of maintaining a highway system as well. Light rail would relieve some of that and also provide cleaner air."

Elsewhere in today's Star, Teresa Williams rambles on excessively about light rail on the opinion page, finally leaving us with this nugget: "Woo us, tease us, make us want it." And no, we really didn't need another comparison between Clay Chastain and Don Quixote.


http://kclightrail.com/2006/12/30/light-rail-support-growing-with-local-business-leaders/

----------------------------------------------------

This is a good read for those in Jax as well.  Its a pretty comprehensive article on KC's quest for an affordable rail solution using different types of rail technology.


What will run on the rails? Parts 1 through 4

1: Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) railcar (ex. Colorado Railcar DMU)


2: Light Rail Vehicles (ex. Minneapolis Hiawatha Line)


3: Self-propelled light railway cars (ex. New Jersey RiverLine, Austin Capital MetroRail)


** of interesting note: similar systems are being planned in Harrisburg, PA, Madison, WI and Spokane, WA.  All metros smaller than Jacksonville.**

4: Ultra Light Rail (ULR)


full article: http://thekansascitypost.com/blog_archive/2007_05_13_blog_archive.html






thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 12:21 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

I think one area that would experience huge growth due to Commuter rail, and not BRT, would be Murray Hill.  One TOD would really ignite the area and bring traffic to their already growing town center area.  That place is on the edge of a rebirth, and rail would definitely cause it to tip. 

Murray Hill would greatly benefit from a local rail system that could include a stop at Edgewood Avenue.  Instead of portions of the area being demolished for bus expressway lanes, the Hill's entire commercial district would increase in value from being directly connected to the rest of the city and downtown with rail.  Like San Marco Square or Avenues Walk, it could be an instant destination spot, further eliminating the question of where do you go when you get off the train.
Ocklawaha
August 13, 2007, 12:27 pm
Adding LRT is like Gas on a flame...

A light hearted barb pointed at JTA and City Hall, If you are insulted by this, "I ask forgiveness because I just love this stuff, and you obviously have me confused with someone that gives a damn..."


A sound advice for JTA!

Want to really enrage that Jacksonville Pride? It's true we are NOT TO SMALL or NOT DENSE ENOUGH for rail. We want to jump start our downtown and we already own the answer. Add to the "S" line the "J" line... a line of Railroad from Gateway Plaza to Bay Street at Maxwell House. Their is already an overpass for it at Hogans Creek on the Union Street Expressway. Using the historic trolley as a development tool downtown, and using the SAME tracks downtown as a distributor for the DMU's that Lakelander has outlined. MIX THEM, run them as trolleys downtown, then sprint up the old "S" or "J" line to Gateway. The historic cars could just do the "figure 8" downtown, while the DMU's did both. Further the DMU could run electric while downtown, which would quiet noise and remove pollution.



Just imagine this scene re-created in downtown Jacksonville today!

I'm preaching to the Choir, but I'm telling you, if we can force this City awake, LRT will be like pouring gasoline on a flame!

Oh yes, that rage? Well indeed we are "just to small", "not very dense" and "way too spread out" for rail... oh really? Lakelander and I left a few cities off that list he posted... Here are the others WITH RAIL up and operating and almost all with designs to expand it:



Here come the Trolley in terribly dense Whitehorse Yt.

Ft. Collins, Co, population 379,800 MSA
Ft. Smith, Ar, population 224,600 MSA
Galveston, Tx, population 196,000 MSA
Kenosha, Wi, population 162,100 MSA
San Pedro, Ca, population, 58,622 MSA
Issaquah, Wa, population 50,646 MSA
El Reno, Ok, population 17,822 MSA
Astoria, Or, population 17,187 MSA
Whitehorse, Yt, population 23,000 (NOTE: for JTA planners, Yt. stands for Yukon Territory which is in Canada, and no where near NAS JAX)
Nelson, Bc, population 9,700 (NOTE: for JTA planners, Bc has nothing to do with cave men, it stands for British Columbia, which is also in Canada).
 

and now... add to the list... our big brother to the North...  

S A V A N N A H   G E O R G I A  


(Two cars are already in the roundhouse. Roundhouse? Well yeah, they ALREADY HAVE a railroad museum!)


These JTA guys wouldn't know a Light Rail Vehicle if it ran over them... oops!

An analogy? How about, "Watching JTA planning, is gives one the same queasy feeling as standing on the banks of the Amazon and watching Dolphins devour the carcass of a dead Jaguar..."  DAMN!
 



A suggestion for JTA's fake $200,000 dollar trolleys (which have failed to meet any ridership projections). I want to be there when this day comes and we give them the old "Deep Six!"

Ocklawaha
"The abbie Hoffman of the Transit World..."
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 12:46 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

If Fort Collins, Colorado can do it, then there's no reason Jax can't.

would you rather jump on an elevated busway paralleling I-95 or something like this?
Ocklawaha
August 13, 2007, 1:22 pm
Tech Note:

9 Circles of JTA HELL



In case this is very confusing. DMU, LRT, LRV, BUS, JTA... ETC...
The reason WHY the light Diesel Motor Unit or DMU is able to run on trolley trackage is because:

1. They are both just different (slightly) types of TRAINS. It is very common to mix them in Europe and on light track in the USA.

2. Both run on the same type of track as CSX or FEC it just doesn't have to be as massively built.



A typical Trolley draws it's power from a "TROLLEY POLE".

3. Both are basically electric Trolleys



A leggo locomotive, to demonstrate what's inside the car body, big engine up front, big generator in back.

4. Those big "diesel" locomotive on CSX? FEC? or NS? are also electrically powered, the only thing in the big car-body that you see when it roars past is a huge diesel engine 2,000 to 6,000 HP, which is turning a power-plant size generator, which in turn feeds power to the "trucks" or sets of wheels where the REAL MOTORS ARE.
 



This view allows one to see the electric part of the system, the motors and REAL power.

5. So what does this mean to us? Well, if one puts trolley poles or pantographs on top of that Diesel unit, so it can draw power directly from the overhead trolley wire, you COULD shut down the diesel power plant or toss it into idle and run on electric from the wire. Since that power would simply bi-pass the diesel and generator set.
 



Heavy Rail, LRT and most Modern Streetcars use Pantographs for power pick-up, they can be lowered or raised at will.

6. This is why I keep saying, if we built the historic trolley for downtown and tourism, and the DMU system that Lake is laying out on the "S" or old "J" (Maxwell House) spur line, they COULD work together on the SAME track. The historic streetcars just stay in downtown and the DMU's have the ability to leave the wire and go solo to Gateway.

7. For the lines South, Southwest and West, we need a different vehicle, one that is more railroad size or we would be caught in a very narrow window of operation if any.

8. The "River-Line" LRV that Lake is showing, is operating on freight railroad track, but it MUST be divided from freight by a tight operation window as well as a system of locking out other trains while it operates. That would be fine for a lightly used track such as North Main Street, but it won't work for a busy mainline like FEC, or CSX.
 



Trolley or diesel locomotive? Well, try Interurban Trolley... This set is ready for the car in San Pedro.  


Little Rock has found the bridge to be something of a reigonal attraction, EVERYONE wants to ride the trolley over the bridge and take photos!

9. There has also been questions on how we get a trolley over the river, and I hope in this case that one photo is worth 1,000 words. Yes, they can climb and in FACT do the downgrade thing better (safer) then buses in the rain


Ocklawaha
"The Abbie Hoffman of the Transit World..."
Ocklawaha
August 13, 2007, 1:32 pm
Funny as hell Lake

Quote
"Woo us, tease us, make us want it." And no, we really didn't need another comparison between Clay Chastain and Don Quixote.

Everyone in Colombia call's me "Don Roberto," and old Quixote has been added more then once! Glad I'm not the only one.

Ocklawaha
thelakelander
August 13, 2007, 1:52 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

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8. The "River-Line" LRV that Lake is showing, is operating on freight railroad track, but it MUST be divided from freight by a tight operation window as well as a system of locking out other trains while it operates. That would be fine for a lightly used track such as North Main Street, but it won't work for a busy mainline like FEC, or CSX.

Considering Orlando's commuter rail deal will involve relocating freight traffic on the A line over to the S line, the CSX corridor from downtown to Orange Park, Green Cove and Palatka would also potentially fall in that light range category.  Combining it with the abandoned S-line through the Northside would present the possibility of a decent sized +20 mile starter DMU served transit corridor at a pretty affordable price (compared to building BRT's North and SW routes).  It also doesn't significantly alter JTA's planned route patterns for BRT because the bus expressway is planned to simply parallel this same exact line. 

As you stated above, the FEC line is pretty busy track and any system using those lines would have to serve more a traditional commuter rail type service (I can't imagine FEC only running freight at night on that line).  However, it's not like things along that route are compact and pedestrian friendly either, so traditional commuter rail between Jacksonville and St. Augustine makes a lot of sense as well.
Ocklawaha
August 13, 2007, 2:13 pm
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

The only things left on the CSX line will be the Palatka Coal fired generating plant which get's a coal train and the paper mill, which ships out paper and "could" get pulp wood in by rail.  Add to that 6 Amtrak trains with more to come that run contra-flow to the rush hours. Heavy Southbound in the MORNING and Northbound in the EVENING. We could, and probably should have our City transportation guy work with Amtrak to do a 12 hour flip of at least two of those trains, running overnight to/from Miami via Orlando. That would put them through Jax about 12:01 - 2 AM Southbound. The other could run South a bit later... Well, all in all, a VERY workable plan. Yes, the old "A" line is not going to see much traffic unless the FDOT is working with DOT in Washinton, on this North-East-Corridor project. It could also be that with push from Amtrak, the CSX "A" line will get the nod as the new EAST-COAST CORRIDOR PROJECT comes along. We could still get some years of service out of it before the change was made.  

Ocklawaha
zoo
August 14, 2007, 8:47 am
Re: Taking advantage of what we already have

Someone should look into Phoenix, and contact their transportation dept for more informational support, as they're right in the middle of constructing their light rail system.

Use of S-rail for commuter rail and jogging trail is great! I would use it tomorrow! I hope JTA and the city, who claim to have no oversight over JTA, will reconsider their ridiculously expensive and ill-thought out system to do the thing the customers/residents/users want.

How can this presentation be used to get petitional support in affected districts? If anyone is going to do this, be sure to ask, and indicate, non-riders and riders (to thwart JTA's "those aren't riders" response). Then maybe the council would listen?
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