| Touring the Westside: Commuter Rail Photo Tour |
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| Monday, 19 March 2007 | |
 CSX Transportation recently announced an agreement in principal to sell 61 miles of the A-Line, from DeLand to Poinciana, to the State of Florida for a proposed Central Florida Commuter Rail operation. This deal includes diverting most freight traffic away from Orlando and onto the parallel S-Line, which runs from Central Florida to Baldwin, meaning a significant portion of freight rail traffic currently paralleling Roosevelt Blvd will be shifted to a different line in the near future. To put it in layman's terms, the side effect of this deal is that commuter rail in Jacksonville could be much more feasible than originally thought. With that in mind, it only makes sense for Metro Jacksonville to provide you with a tour of what could be... Jacksonville Rail Map - Westside Line
Locator Map Key: Orange = proposed BRT routes. (system shown will cost tax payers about $1 billion and at least 20 years construction time) Red Line = CSX rail line through the Westside. (BRT plans include purchasing ROW parallel to existing rail to build a highway for buses) Blue Line = FEC rail line through the Southside. (Again BRT plans include new bus highways parallel to existing rail) Green Line = S-Line through Northside. (city owned rail ROW. BRT plans ignore this asset and instead call for... building a brand new highway for buses) Where will the cash for these duplicate transit corridors come from? Did somebody find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and forget to tell the rest of us?
Westside CSX Line Photo Tour 1.
2. King Street
A rail stop in the vicinity of King Street would possibly spur redevelopment in a small abandoned older warehouse district near the crossing, as well as be within walking distance of Riverside and neighborhoods north of I-10, which is located about two blocks to the north of this picture.
2a. Park & King Commercial District
Another positive aspect of creating a stop near King Street is its proximity to the Park & King commercial district. Similar to Alexandria, Va's Metro Stop, this area can easily become a place that puts transit riders within walking distance of several pedestrian friendly establishments.
2b. Roosevelt Expressway Overpass
Just like the FEC line running through the Southside, the CSX line is also already significantly double tracked between downtown and Orange Park. Unlike BRT, once again, the existing infrastructure is pretty much already in place, meaning we could save millions of public tax dollars, as opposed to building new highways, specifically for buses.
2c. Redevelopment opportunities
While the line is mostly already developed, there are sites, such as this one near College Street, in the Riverside/Murray Hill area that could possibly be ideal infill redevelopment sites or park and ride lots.
3. Edgewood Avenue
In a recent BRT presentation, it was revealed that if JTA's planners have their way and construct a bus highway parallel to the CSX tracks and Roosevelt Blvd, several structures, such as buildings that are part of Jones College will have to be demolished for the new transitway. However, by using existing rail, these structures can remain in place, once again saving the public millions in cash and years in time. Integrating the concept of rail transit in the Edgewood Avenue area also provides another stop adjacent to a pedestrian friendly urban commercial district.... Murray Hill's business district. Furthermore, if you go the opposite direction, Edgewood and its well maintained linear parks serve as a pedestrian friendly gateway to Avondale.
3a. Florida Community College Kent Campus
FCCJ Kent Campus is located just south of Edgewood Avenue along the CSX rail corridor and Roosevelt Blvd. The college campus is another of several existing activity centers located within one block of this rail line. Seriously, if you're a transit planner, you couldn't ask for a better path for a future transit line.
3b. Roosevelt Blvd.
While accidents, such as this one on Roosevelt Blvd, can stall vehicular and bus rapid transit traffic, rail transit uses its own fixed infrastructure. Passenger trains have a much better chance of not being delayed by reckless drivers.
4. San Juan Avenue/Roosevelt Square While definitely suburban oriented, this commercial district would still be well served by a commuter rail stop. Businesses like Publix, CVS, and others would benefit from exposure to the additional traffic base in the area and transit commuters would have direct pedestrian access to businesses in other areas of town. This is important, because its a key ingredient in attracting "choice" riders. Choice riders are those that aren't forced to use transit, but choose to because it is convenient and a viable alternative to avoid our congested roadways.
5. Ortega River crossing
The CSX line crosses the Ortega River, via a drawbridge. About one mile to the west, the proposed Westside BRT line would terminate at Wilson Blvd, 20 YEARS from now. That's right WILSON BLVD. For those sitting in traffic on Blanding BLVD, closer to the county line, you can forget about having a viable mass transit option for your commute if the current BRT plan in implemented.
6. Timquana Road at Roosevelt Blvd.
Once again, the tracks happen to already be double tracked near NAS Jax.
8. Orange Park
In this photo, the rail line gets ready to cross Kingsley Avenue in Orange Park, before continuing south to Fleming Island, Green Cove Springs and eventually Central Florida, where a commuter rail project is already well on it's way.
8a. Transit adjacent development (TAD)
Although not considered transit oriented development, this project is located across the street from the CSX rail line near Kingsley Avenue and serves as a great example of a possible TAD (Transit Adjacent Development).
Existing North-South Corridors
9. Roosevelt Blvd. Who wants to sit in this mess now, much less a quarter century from now? Well, it's already known the billion dollar BRT plan won't do anything for this congested area when it's built out in an optimistic 20 years from now. Isn't it about time for public leaders and hard working First Coast residents to demand a little better? This isn't a debate about the differences in rail or bus rapid transit technology and terminology. This argument is about taking advantage of our existing infrastructure, saving public money and reconfiguring the low density growth patterns of our community by integrating the two rapid transit systems together. This means abandoning the current concept of BRT lines running parallel to existing rail and replacing that idea with commuter rail using DMU technology. Doing this will save JTA and the city millions, leaving money available to implement BRT to serve and connect areas such as the beaches, where rail doesn't currently exist.
To learn more about commuter rail and why Jacksonville should take a serious look, visit: Metro Jacksonville's BRT vs. Commuter Rail study: Metro Jacksonville Transit Section: |
March 19, 2007, 7:50 am
nice tour. I like the idea.
March 19, 2007, 11:36 am
The tracks through Riverside and on down to NAS are almost perfectly located. Express busses could easily shuttle people into the nearby stations. The OP area would benefit by shifting development to US17 and away from Blanding.
March 19, 2007, 4:46 pm
Metro DC as case study
I think it's a step in the right direction and about 20 years behind schedule. I'm extremely pleased to see a real solution to the transit problems of Jacksonville finally being implemented. Using Metro DC as a case study would go a long way to doing some serious good. Jacksonville covers about the same land area as Metro DC and could serve about the same number of people, allowing Jacksonville to grow and become more connected while still allowing for the McMansion developments springing up all over the place. And, if I'm not mistaken, the entire Metro DC line was constructed in under 30 years. We've got systems in place, there is no reason that Jacksonville couldn't have a functioning mass transit rail up in as little as 5 years. "If you build it, they will come". My two cents anyway.
Ciao.
March 19, 2007, 6:56 pm
I grew up in Alexandria, VA and can attest to the growth spurred by the metro stops. The nicest areas in VA, DC, and MD are now located near those very stops. Building an effective rail system would do wonders for our city. The bus system has been done without the success. By looking at the successes and failures of "older" cities, Jacksonville could be a gem. We just can't stick our heads in the sand and make the same mistakes others have made.
March 20, 2007, 2:26 pm
I'm rendered sputtering and speechless at this idea. It's perfect! It works toward solving so many problems - OP overcrowding and sprawl; daily horrific traffic congestion that will only increase as the areas inevitably grow; cost considerations (as opposed to the outrageous BRT); potential environmental impact; essential urban revitalization, etc. I could go on and on. It's almost like a test: if we as a community do not seize this opportunity and get this done, we are doomed to extinction as fatally flawed and defective, and deservedly so.
A question: am I being totally out of line by even considering the possibility that the reason the current Mayor is more interested in the bloated and ridiculous BRT system is because it is diesel powered, and the gasoline to run it in perpetuity has to come from somewhere near and dear to his heart? Or is that just too calloused?
March 25, 2007, 10:53 pm
Not a big enough issue yet
I like the photos and the trains, I personally love the trains and I think they can have a great impact on the growth of Jacksonville. However, this is not the right time. Clay county has had the mess of Blanding Blvd for almost 30 years, what have they done to fix it? Nothing. Backward thinking will kill any original planning in Clay County. Why should people in Duval pay for something that benefits Clay County?
Don't destroy Avondale/Murray Hill charm just because you think, that is right, think that people will want to abandon their cars and take the train to downtown Jax. If you drop people off at the Prime, they still need a bus to go to most of downtown, so why not just let the JTA (whole other subject) handle this part and make the people who use this service, pay for it? I doubt many people are willing to give up their cars who work downtown. Traffic is not bad enough to warrant people giving up the cars.
When Jacksonville's air is so bad to breathe in the Summer due to SMOG, then we will have politicians who realize the problem. Till then, Clay County, build your new schools and sanitation before you tackle any new roads!
March 26, 2007, 9:14 am
Ever drive down Blanding? How long should we wait?
I'm kind of confused where your coming from, but I'll try to respond
logically.
When's the right time? I'd say in Blanding and Clay's case it's well
overdue. To plan and discuss this issue today doesn't mean its going to be
up and running tomorrow morning. These things take time, but if we continue
to stick our heads in the sand, we'll only end up paying dearly for it 10 to
20 years from now. Also, why should Jax have to pay for Clay's mess? If
anything the idea of commuter rail should be jointly funded by all places
that benefit from it, not just the core city. That's how it works in most
other metros.
Also, if you want to preserve the character of Avondale and Murray Hill,
rail is definately the way to go. Your other option is seeing a busway
(think skyway concept with buses substituted for trains) ripping down
buildings in Murray Hill and everything along it's path. Saving the
historic buildings in that area by implementing transit on existing rail, is
definately more neighborhood friendly. You'll be hard pressed to prove an
argument stating otherwise.
Also rail isn't about abandoning cars. Its about providing an affordable
alternative solution to get around town, instead of one that will cost John
Q. Taxpayer hundreds of millions more. It's a quality of life benefit, not
a lifestyle change for suburbanites. As for downtown, a stop at the Prime
Osborn would give you direct access to the skyway express and free JTA
downtown trolleys. A combination of those systems will take you anywhere
you want to go, if downtown is your destination.
March 26, 2007, 9:54 am
manage by crisis
I think Jack is implying that we should not even think about these issues until it is a complete crisis. I'm not really sure why most people advocate this line of thinking. It leaves us with no plan, and no vision, and more problems that are more difficult and more expensive to solve.
March 26, 2007, 10:53 pm
If downtown is your destination....
There, you said it, how many people from Clay and bedroom communities WANT to travel downtown? Your rhetoric speaks as if there are thousands of people who work downtown and WANT to travel downtown on a daily basis. How many new skyscrapers have been built downtown over the last 5 years? None, and the market doesn't warrant new ones, so again, who WANTS to come downtown on the commute?
Rail is not needed, plain and simple. It would be nice to see commuter used when it is needed, but to build it to HAVE when we need it is a simple waste of tax payer dollars. Much like the JTA wasted resources in building the Skyway. If the Skyway were a tremendous success, the city would have no problem lobbying for more money to take it other places. The fact is that the "plan", the "vision" from the early 80s was flawed. And by the way Dan, it was incredibly expensive. Can the City afford such future plans and vision, with NO demand?
Clay county has had commuter problems for almost 30 years, yet they have done absolutely nothing to fix these problems and allowed for the sprawl to continue. If you live in Clay and are a proponent for Rail, then you pay for it or move closer to downtown. Rail is something that is pay as you go, those who use it should pay for it, because otherwise its no better than the Skyway, a system we all pay for but few use it.
Right now the City has bigger issues other than the rail lines of existing FEC and CSX tracks. There are no tracks down Atlantic, Beach or JTB. Those main areas are going to come to a standstill in a few short years and the land is getting more and more expensive. Tolls are a good way to pay for the transportation mess. If you use it, pay for it. Or shall we have a 20 cent sales tax to help pay for all of these "pie in the sky" ideas?
How do you plan to pay for rail? Its a heckuva an idea, but when you start talking about dollars and where they come from, most people get real quiet. The stations cost money, rent on the stations cost money, the equipment, the labor, the management, and no one has proved that rail can work or succeed. When is the last time you saw a full AMTRAK from Jax to Palatka? or the other way around?
March 26, 2007, 11:04 pm
i agree with Jack
again, I agree with Jack.
March 27, 2007, 9:09 am
This is bigger than accessing downtown or moving cars...
Wow Jack you couldn't be further off base. First and foremost, none of this is about getting people only downtown. Its about taking advantage of our existing infrastructure in setting up an affordable alternative solution for mass transit in the First Coast. Those using Blanding and congested streets in the Westside or Orange Park, may not be interested in heading downtown, but St. Augustine, Fernandina Beach, the Avenues Mall, FCCJ Kent, Southpoint and the airport may be alternative destinations. What you don't realize or fail to accept is there is something already planned and is in the process of being forced down our throats by JTA. It's a network of busways that will cost us over ten times as much as commuter rail would. If anything, what's being floated around here is a tax reliever instead of the potential boondoggles that busways, additional Outer beltways and many of the
BJP overpasses would be.
You're also off base about the skyway and the comparison with the concept of commuter rail is apples and oranges. The federal government, not JTA or Jacksonville paid for 80% of of the skyway and it was a federal demonstration project. However, it was over engineered (for some reason we tend to spend more than we have to on simple things locally), causing the costs to rise and never completed. It's essentially I-95, without the Fuller Warren Bridge. If you really want it to work, you have to complete the regional mass transit system that was originally a part of the plan to feed riders into it. So if you have to put a grade next to it, it would be... inconclusive or incomplete.
Also the two major differences between rail and roads is the technology and the fact that road building costs a lot more. Face it, we can't build ourselves out of congestion and you can't come up with any major American city that have successfully done this. A trip to Atlanta, Houston or Orlando easily proves all the road building and tolls in the world won't solve traffic congestion or the negative environmental side effects that come with building 12 lane highways. Coming up with affordable alternative solutions of mass transit only makes financial sense. If you disagree, please feel free to bring up and discuss the successes of another city our size, or larger, looking only at additional road construction in the foreseable future for its transit problems.
As for addressing areas where rail doesn't run, I'd suggest taking a look at several of the previous transit oriented articles in Metro Jacksonville's archives. More than once, it's been mentioned that by taking advantage of existing rail and right-of-way in places where it's already located, would only free up
millions to address other areas with improved bus service in the form of express routes.
Finally when it comes down to costs, there's several ways to pay for it. The $100 million JTA plans to use to purchase right-of-way for the BRT system could probably fund most of a Duval County system (with no help from the feds), based off similar type commuter rail deals across the US. Or those funds could be matched with federal dollars just like you would have to do with more expensive road, rail and
bus projects. It could also consist of public/private financing deals, related with the development of TODs (Transit Oriented Developments). There's several possibilities for funding something so cheap, compared to the alternative, which is funding more roads or building skyway style bus lanes that are poorly integrated with the neighborhoods they are supposed to serve. However, we first have to take our heads out of the sand and look at these things in a proactive manner, instead of outright assuming they won't work or Jax is too small for anything other than roads. That kind of close minded thinking will have us with horrible traffic conditions, like Houston, sooner than you know it.
March 28, 2007, 5:55 am
Lake - You got the 100 million burning a hole in the coffers now?
We could do this and we could do that, you sound like a politician. You should plunk down your 13 grand next time we have a 4 year dance and take a stab at running. We could get 100 million, we could get Federal money, we could get elephants that fly. The fact that the City does not have the resources for this pie in the sky application is apparent.
I can think of many things that this city needs more than BRT NOW and we can spend that 100 million much wiser than with a BRT system, that "could" alleviate traffic congestion, if people used it. There is absolutely no proof, put forth by any credible organization, that a BRT system would be embraced and used by anyone in Jacksonville, other than the people who use the existing JTA.
The feds did contribute a large money to the skyway, but, since the inception, who do you think has been paying for the maintenance and use of it? The feds surely have not. You bring up good points, I don't think roads can solve all of the issues, but the belief that rail can bring people in and be used is not worth pursuing, since there is not enough of a demand for rail right now. Plan on it in 10 or 20 years when you have enough people to ride. Go look at bus service sometime, do the people here justice, take pictures of a FULL BUS. I don't think they exist, other than a Jaguar game. Why should we as taxpayers spend more money on a system that isn't being utilized fully, RIGHT NOW?!
March 28, 2007, 6:46 am
pie in the sky?
Jack, have you seen the BRT plan that JTA is currently moving forward with? It is more pie in the sky than anything proposed on this website. It sounds like you are a little confused on what is being advocated here.
If you think that Jacksonville will need rail in 10 to 20 years, when do you think JTA should start planning for it?
March 28, 2007, 8:59 am
We're already behind the eight ball. When to start planning?
That's a very good question, that I'd love to see Jack's answer on. Most of today's road projects under construction were originally planned over a decade ago. Even I-295/9A has been in the works for over 30 years and its still not complete.
It was mentioned earlier on that, what's being discussed concerning commuter rail today, won't be operational tomorrow. Its also pretty evident that our local population base continues to grow rapidly.
So Jack, when is a good time to start talking and planning ahead on how to relieve congestion and fund alternative transportation solutions? We already have nearly 1.3 million in the metro now. Should we wait till we're in Phoenix's congested condition to sit down at the table and discuss solutions or should we be proactive and progressive by attempting to plan ahead?
Please elaborate!
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