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Councilman Redman wants Metro Park concerts stopped

Councilman Don Redman's crusade on downtown's public spaces continues. Following up on his desire to remove benches, tables, and trees from Hemming Plaza, Redman has filed additional legislation to have ticketed events in Metropolitan Park eliminated. Here is a look at the official legislation recently submitted for council's consideration.

Published January 10, 2013 in Urban Issues      124 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article


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124 Comments

Cheshire Cat

January 10, 2013, 08:01:34 PM
I feel compelled to share that when I read this the first time I found myself literally laughing out loud at this latest proposed legislation pushed by Don Redman.  Seriously,  does the man live on this planet in this city or in some altered universe of his own making?  What I wonder does he suppose the multi-million dollar venue was built for.  Seriously LMAO!

http://www.causes.com/causes/810291-no-more-concerts-at-met-park-please-don-t-ignore/about

thelakelander

January 10, 2013, 08:12:41 PM
LMAO! It's a little early for April Fools.  Is this for real?  Do you know what the bill number is?

civil42806

January 10, 2013, 08:24:18 PM
I'd like to know the bill # also.  Find it a little fishy, not sure how legit that website is, the bill number would confirm if its true or not.

Noone

January 10, 2013, 08:30:54 PM
Well now we know that they are not moving the tables and chairs from Hemming Plaza to Metro Park.

Cheshire Cat

January 10, 2013, 08:40:17 PM
Don't know the bill number or about the link site.  Got this info from a former reporter for Folio who is usually correct about these things.  Didn't see it until tonight after City Hall closed.  Will try to get some verification tomorrow.  Somehow, I can see him doing something like this.  lol

Charles Hunter

January 10, 2013, 08:58:07 PM
Bill # 2013 - 8
http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/Council/JANUARY-8-2013-SUMMARY.pdf
scroll down until you get to it

wacka doo

civil42806

January 10, 2013, 09:40:21 PM
Bill # 2013 - 8
http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/Council/JANUARY-8-2013-SUMMARY.pdf
scroll down until you get to it

wacka doo

Thanks Charles thats just crazy talk

peestandingup

January 10, 2013, 09:45:11 PM
Lol, what does this pant load have against parks? Make them as dead as possible?? Cause those concerts are about the only thing going for Met Park these days. Go on any random day & its as dead as a doornail. Just a random park in a sea of nothingness because of the failed policies & lack of vision of this town's leaders.

He's seriously one of the most clueless, not to mention just all out dumbest, local politician I've ever heard of.

dougskiles

January 10, 2013, 09:48:11 PM
Anyone see the bill just before the Metro Park bill?  Off the subject, but also interesting (sponsored by CM Brown and clearly aimed at the Supervisor of Elections project):


Quote
Bill Summary: The bill amends Ordinance Code Chapter 122 – Public Property – by adding a new section which would prohibit the construction of new public buildings for purposes for which already existing vacant public buildings are suitable. “Suitability” is to be determined based on consideration of factors such as size, scale and location of existing buildings in relation to the proposed uses, and on the estimated costs to make such existing buildings and appurtenant uses (parking lots, additional structures, recreational areas, signage, etc.) appropriate for the proposed use. The cities of Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach and the Town of Baldwin are excluded from the applicability of this ordinance.
Background Information: The bill’s sponsor believes that existing vacant publicly owned buildings are a valuable but underused asset and are not being given sufficient consideration for adaptation and re-use prior to the decision to construct new buildings.

thelakelander

January 10, 2013, 10:09:41 PM
I actually like CM Brown's bill. 

tufsu1

January 10, 2013, 10:37:59 PM
maybe we could actually get his name right?  Its Don Redman

and while I disagree with the bill, folks should know that the X102.9 concert in December was quite loud....from my house a mile away from the park, I could clearly sing along with the last band at almost 11pm on a Sunday night.

lots of ampitheaters in the country deal with this issue....Merriweather Post Pavilion in MD has had resterictions put on it and the ampitheater in Tampa lost a lawsuit and had to install noise walls

Charles Hunter

January 10, 2013, 10:43:56 PM
The St. Augustine Amphitheater shuts down promptly at ??? 10:30?  Is surrounded by houses.

Adam W

January 11, 2013, 01:33:07 AM
It's only 12 events. They can't possibly run that late at night. How noisy are they for the residents of St Nicholas and San Marco (they may well be noisy for the people on the river - I have no idea)? And although they may be noisy during the hours of the events, is the language used really an issue?

What's the point in having Metro Park if we can't have ticketed events there, really? It's only 12 events. I don't know what the rules are, but I'd hope there are limits to how late the events can run in order to ensure the residents across the river aren't kept up at night. If not, that seems like a more reasonable solution.

triclops i

January 11, 2013, 04:09:31 AM
Lets pause all other aspects and look at where it says Fiscal Impact : Undetermined....

If this passes, the fiscal impact will obviously be hundreds of thousands of dollars (at least)  of revenue being fed directly into the St Augustine Amphitheater, and in turn not Jacksonville.

There for, Undetermined is not only a bullshit lie, but also considered "undetermined" because and only because the writers of the legislation did not actually research the Fiscal Impact at all.

And thats just the beginning....

 

Noone

January 11, 2013, 06:02:39 AM
Scott Wilson, When is the next neighborhood meeting at the Mudville Grille? Are they still meeting there? isn't the Plan an expanded Entertainment District for Downtown?

Should this be on the top of the list now for the JCCI- Vision Study? Or will it be legislatively removed before the voices are heard and the fat lady sings?

By the way when is the kayak logo going up at Palmer Terrace Park?

Ben Warner, JCCI we need to kayak Downtown before 2025.

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 07:14:18 AM
I hear the fireworks downtown at my house on 4th of July and New Years.  I hear the music from Jazz Fest for three straight days.  I also hear train horns late at night and early in the morning.  Last night my neighbor's dog barked from 11pm to 12am.

Councilman Redman, please introduce legislation to ban fireworks, freight trains, jazz and dogs.  Our peaceful, quiet community cannot be overrun by such miscreants.

Scott A Wilson

January 11, 2013, 07:15:21 AM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 07:28:56 AM
You know what would be a better noise reducing measure for Southbank residents?

http://residentnews.net/2012/12/05/quiet-zones-solution-historic-districts-train-horns/

This affects residents EVERY DAY.  Not just 12 times a year(or less b/c we currently do not enjoy 12 concerts a year at Met Park).

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 07:37:36 AM
If you are going to stop concerts at Metro Park, please introduce a companion bill that also finds money to do something with a now defunct Ampitheatre. 

Or perhaps Councilman Redman should stay the hell out of the park regulating business, because he is just awful at it. 

Scott A Wilson

January 11, 2013, 07:39:41 AM
You know what would be a better noise reducing measure for Southbank residents?

http://residentnews.net/2012/12/05/quiet-zones-solution-historic-districts-train-horns/

This affects residents EVERY DAY.  Not just 12 times a year(or less b/c we currently do not enjoy 12 concerts a year at Met Park).
Train horns and concerts are completely different issues.

ChriswUfGator

January 11, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

Why is it every time there's some asinine bullshit going on around here, it boils down to one or two homeowners being behind it, who think that because they dropped relative chump change on a house that is tangentially affected, that allows them to control millions of dollars of other people's economic activity? You live in a city. There will be noise. If you don't like it, then the cost-effective solution is to move to Green Cove Springs, Starke, Waldo, Macclenny, Fernandina, or any number of of the outlying small towns where nothing happens. But that solution is never on the table, is it? You guys always want the rest of the world to conform to you, not vice-versa. You're seriously going to shut down an entire public venue that the rest of the city enjoys, and that no doubt was there long before you were, because you don't like the noise a couple days a year?

What's next? Move next to the airport and complain about the planes?

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 07:48:22 AM
You know what would be a better noise reducing measure for Southbank residents?

http://residentnews.net/2012/12/05/quiet-zones-solution-historic-districts-train-horns/

This affects residents EVERY DAY.  Not just 12 times a year(or less b/c we currently do not enjoy 12 concerts a year at Met Park).
Train horns and concerts are completely different issues.

Noone

January 11, 2013, 07:57:01 AM
Scott,
Can we move some of the table and chairs from Hemming Plaza to Palmer Terrace Park? Where are the chairs and tables from Hemming Plaza going? What was the cost to purchase them and have them installed originally?

We are getting bids for a concrete slab for the restored clock. How much are the bids?  How about getting a bid for a slab or two for relocating a couple of the tables and chairs for Palmer Terrace Park.

What a benefit for this kayak Park location that still needs its logo.

Ben Warner- JCCI, we need to Kayak Downtown before 2025

TheCat

January 11, 2013, 08:03:14 AM

fsujax

January 11, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
This bill is ridiculos. Maybe a rock concert going till 11pm on Sunday is a little much, but to shut the whole thing down. Come on now. The other night there was major banging and clanging at the port of Talleyrand that was literally shaking my house in Springfield all night long. I think we need to shut down the port. Now how dumb did that just sound?

tufsu1

January 11, 2013, 08:35:13 AM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it.

build a sound wall along the river side of the ampitheater stage....of course that would detract from the views I guess...see links regarding issues in Tampa

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/10/Tampabay/Noise_complaints_at_t.shtml

http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/airquality/article816010.ece

http://www.greenboarstudio.com/uploads/001-SoundWallRandD.pdf

btw...I'm willing to bet the sound from Monster Jam next month will be pretty loud too (especially given the stadium's new sound system)....perhaps we should shut that down too.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

January 11, 2013, 08:38:48 AM
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise? 

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

I couldn't dig up any additional info from the search bar, so if anyone can pull the relevant thread, I think it would help the current discussion.

avonjax

January 11, 2013, 08:55:58 AM
The problem with Jacksonville is there are many people who want to live in a small town and want to keep Jacksonville a small town. The only way there will never be disturbed citizens by noise traffic or whatever is if we move all bars, restaurants and entertainment venues into the outlying areas maybe someplace like Cecil Field. Or suggestion number two, they could move to a suburb where there are no venues to worry about.  It seems, as of late, every time someone wants to open a new restaurant or bar or whatever that has an impact on a handful of residents, there is a public outcry. (Park & King, Avondale and Southbank, which is nothing new. They have been complaining for years.) When I lived in Avondale I could hear the Robert E Lee band and even the kids on football night. It was really loud. I loved it. I have lived closer to a couple of these areas and I accepted the noise because I knew it was part of the fabric of the neighborhood. Also Orsay cars lined both sides of my street but it made me happy to know a thriving business was a block or so from my house. And a very NICE thriving business. There were others on the street that HATED it. Because of a car parked in front of your house on a public street? Give me a break.

Part of the problem with all this hysteria about these neighborhoods is twenty years ago or so Jacksonville was so  stagnant that these problems didn't exist. Park & King was a derelict area trying to comeback, (I find a little noise and a lot of pretty decent people a little better than the male hustlers that used to roam the street every night). Avondale could depend on local business that were mostly non-restaurant to fill the store fronts. But as times have changed it seems that restaurants are the main staple that can survive for any period of time. I personally hate that real estate offices have taken a couple of sites that most Avondale residents will never use. Southbank residents have been complaining for as long as I can remember. They fought the amphitheater and won and now complain about 12 musical events a year at Metro. Sorry I don't feel sorry for you.

I agree with the person that posted move to a small town.

And Don Redman? He is the perfect person to keep Jacksonville small town. Please for the love of your city boot this guy out. I know it's awful to judge a person you have never met on their look and voice, but this guy is a humorless tool!

avonjax

January 11, 2013, 08:57:50 AM
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise? 

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

I couldn't dig up any additional info from the search bar, so if anyone can pull the relevant thread, I think it would help the current discussion.

You are correct. It was going to be way smaller than the Tampa one.
And are people complaining in St Augustine?

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 09:12:55 AM
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise? 

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

I couldn't dig up any additional info from the search bar, so if anyone can pull the relevant thread, I think it would help the current discussion.

You are correct. It was going to be way smaller than the Tampa one.
And are people complaining in St Augustine?

As I say every chance I get, yes, we were supposed to get a real outdoor amphitheater at Met Park, and it was thwarted by, among other factors, Grinches from St. Nicholas who preferred the urban core be deathly silent year round. Noise complaints have always been an issue for Met Park. Or rather, the mentality in this city that we need to bend over backwards to accommodate anyone anywhere who has a complaint. I mean seriously, if concerts aren't acceptable Downtown, where in the entire metro area are they acceptable? It's really disheartening to see one of our downtown council members trying to do away with downtown events.

CityLife

January 11, 2013, 09:28:43 AM
My house is right behind the 3rd and Main building in Springfield and the building amplifies sound in the direction of my house to a much greater level than anywhere in my vicinity. My wife and I were watching TV that Sunday night and I could even tell what song Bush was playing while the TV was on. To give you an idea of how loud it was.

I'll gladly take a little noise here and there if it means our downtown is going to be utilized more and people are going to be able to enjoy our beautiful riverfront. If you live in proximity to Downtown or any city for that matter, you should expect a little noise here and there.

That said, the concert probably shouldn't be going on until 11 on a work/school night. The Talleyrand Festival a few years back had a decent lineup and was an all day affair on a Saturday, and it was also during football season. The obvious solution should be to limit concerts until 10 on work/school nights and encourage them to happen on a Friday or Saturday. If a promoter has an issue with that, they can always move it to the spring when it isn't football season.

CityLife

January 11, 2013, 09:36:57 AM
I'll also add that there should be a strong market for concerts that appeal to the 18-40ish crowd at Metro Park, given the direction the St. Augustine Amphitheater has gone with its bookings. So here instead of attempting to seize on a major opportunity to stimulate growth in the Downtown entertainment sector, we have a Councilman doing the exact opposite.....cusswords......

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 09:45:05 AM
You know what would be a better noise reducing measure for Southbank residents?

http://residentnews.net/2012/12/05/quiet-zones-solution-historic-districts-train-horns/

This affects residents EVERY DAY.  Not just 12 times a year(or less b/c we currently do not enjoy 12 concerts a year at Met Park).
Train horns and concerts are completely different issues.

If the issue is about noise, then you should be consistent and also ban Jazz Fest, the Monster Truck Rally, fireworks downtown, Motorcross and all Bishop Kenny and Episcopal football games.  All of those make noise for St Nicholas and Empire Point residents.  You should probably ban kickball games in St Nicholas park while you're at it... in the interest of consistency.

If it's really about noise, silent zones for trains affect FAR more people every day... multiple times a day.

Or, as Tampa (or Albany, Columbia, LA... I could go on and on here) has done with their widly succesful ampitheatre... build a sound wall.  OR restrict the hours on every night but Friday and Saturday. 

It's time for the Office of District 4 to get out of the park regulating business.

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 09:58:38 AM
It's time for the Office of District 4 to get out of the park regulating business.

High time. And to quit giving priority registration to those who celebrate having things not happen Downtown.

JaxDiablo

January 11, 2013, 10:03:38 AM
You know what would be a better noise reducing measure for Southbank residents?

http://residentnews.net/2012/12/05/quiet-zones-solution-historic-districts-train-horns/

This affects residents EVERY DAY.  Not just 12 times a year(or less b/c we currently do not enjoy 12 concerts a year at Met Park).
Train horns and concerts are completely different issues.

I thought the issue was sound?  They both produce an ample amount of sound; enough to disturb residents of the area.  You can't pick which sound you want to annoy you, it's either all sounds that are disturbing, or no sounds are disturbing.

RockStar

January 11, 2013, 10:41:31 AM
If there is a King of the Asshats somewhere, meet Don Redman, the Emperor.

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 10:55:04 AM
Quote
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise?

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

Nope, you are not mistaken about my involvement in stopping the amphitheater.  You are mistaken to think it was a part of the original plan for Metropolitan Park.  It was a scheme cooked up by Rick Mullaney to benefit some friends of his.  He was also going transfer a public park over to ownership by a private corporation.

He was chief of staff to Delaney at the time and got caught hiding some correspondence that he should have revealed to numerous public records requests.  Rather than see him prosecuted, the mayor decided to drop the whole thing.  I think it was a major embarrassment to Delaney.

The issue at the time WAS noise.  The concerts were going to be more numerous (50 per year), later at night (1AM) and louder than they are now.  The 11PM limit was put in as part of the settlement over the amphitheater. 

St. Nicholas and San Marco can really get blasted with the sound when the river and weather conditions are just right.  Wind from the west, low cloud cover and smooth water makes the music as loud on the other side of the river as in the park itself. I once measured 92dba in my back yard in St. Nicholas when there was a rock concert in the stadium.

That said, Redman's meat axe approach to the problem is ridiculous.  Speaker number, orientation and volume control can reduce the overflow sound greatly and the 11PM cutoff time is very reasonable.  I lived in the same house for a long time after the amphitheater fiasco and never again found the music to be a problem.

None of us can reasonably expect silence; we do live in a city.  I currently live in a commercial area with delivery and trash trucks coming and going at all hours, on a major through street and am close enough to the train tracks to be able to hear the rumble of the engines.  I am also with a hundred yards of the I-10/I-95 intersection.

I love it.  It is the sound of life in an urban core and I don't won't to live anywhere else.

Music is harder to deal with.  It is much harder to put in the background of your consciousness .  It is written and performed to demand attention and hits our brain in a different way.

Maybe there are some people who will complain about ANY music coming from the Park, but there are some simple, inexpensive ways to control the spread of the music to satisfy most of the residents who are currently complaining, if indeed it is more than just a few people who live right on the river.

Stopping all concerts in the park is even more idiotic than taking up the chairs and tables in Hemming Plaza and that sets a pretty high (low?) standard for stupidity.

stephendare

January 11, 2013, 10:58:29 AM
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise? 

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

I couldn't dig up any additional info from the search bar, so if anyone can pull the relevant thread, I think it would help the current discussion.

You are correct. It was going to be way smaller than the Tampa one.
And are people complaining in St Augustine?

As I say every chance I get, yes, we were supposed to get a real outdoor amphitheater at Met Park, and it was thwarted by, among other factors, Grinches from St. Nicholas who preferred the urban core be deathly silent year round. Noise complaints have always been an issue for Met Park. Or rather, the mentality in this city that we need to bend over backwards to accommodate anyone anywhere who has a complaint. I mean seriously, if concerts aren't acceptable Downtown, where in the entire metro area are they acceptable? It's really disheartening to see one of our downtown council members trying to do away with downtown events.

This idea that people are selectively entitled to total silence in a city is pretty poisonous really.  I have to listen to fireworks and the low bass of announce voices during these football matches that they have at that stadium well into the night.

If the metropolitan park concerts have to go, then I think the football matches should go as well.  And no more fourth of july fireworks.  Or New Years Eve or any of the like.

This is, after all the point of living in a city.  Not just a big city, or even a small one.  But just a city in particular.  To enjoy the economic and entertainment events that are only possible with these types of venues and this type of infrastructure.

I think that there are a handful of people who take their own suburban/rural expectations and make it into a cult of selfish prerogative.

Blocking the ampitheatre was a bad idea and the city has suffered as a result of it.  This is an even worse one.

urbanlibertarian

January 11, 2013, 10:59:15 AM
IMO the only residents who have a legitimate gripe are those who were living nearby when the ampitheatre was built.  I (like tufsu1) moved DT afterward and IMO have to accept things the way they were.  That doesn't mean it wouldn't be good if shows voluntarily tried to be more considerate of the neighbors.

urbanlibertarian

January 11, 2013, 11:01:15 AM
If there is a King of the Asshats somewhere, meet Don Redman, the Emperor.

I've never met the man but he strikes me as someone with a deep abiding fear that someone somewhere is having un-wholesome fun.

stephendare

January 11, 2013, 11:03:07 AM
Quote
None of us can reasonably expect silence; we do live in a city.  I currently live in a commercial area with delivery and trash trucks coming and going at all hours, on a major through street and am close enough to the train tracks to be able to hear the rumble of the engines.  I am also with a hundred yards of the I-10/I-95 intersection.

I love it.  It is the sound of life in an urban core and I don't won't to live anywhere else.

Music is harder to deal with.  It is much harder to put in the background of your consciousness .  It is written and performed to demand attention and hits our brain in a different way.

Maybe there are some people who will complain about ANY music coming from the Park, but there are some simple, inexpensive ways to control the spread of the music to satisfy most of the residents who are currently complaining, if indeed it is more than just a few people who live right on the river.

Stopping all concerts in the park is even more idiotic than taking up the chairs and tables in Hemming Plaza and that sets a pretty high (low?) standard for stupidity.

^this.

and Dogwalker, while I knew that you were involved with stopping the amphitheater, I was not including you in the description of the above mentioned cultists---many of whom labor under the impression that because the city and its historic districts have been deserted and dysfunctional for so long that the gravelike silence and ample parking are conditions that are also historic or should be maintained as the status quo.

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 11:04:35 AM
If there is a King of the Asshats somewhere, meet Don Redman, the Emperor.

I've never met the man but he strikes me as someone with a deep abiding fear that someone somewhere is having un-wholesome fun.

He is also someone who thinks that there are simple answers for complicated problems.  NOT!

stephendare

January 11, 2013, 11:10:05 AM
Don Redman needs to resign.

It is high time---actually past time----that a petition was circulated demanding the resignation of this hateful, bigoted, mean spirited and counterproductive old man.

He has no business whatsoever serving on the City Council, and needs to go.

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 11:12:31 AM
He does have one tiny redeeming feature; he supports bicycle projects.  (How's that for damming with faint praise!)

Does anyone remember if he had opposition in his last election or, if so, who it was?

stephendare

January 11, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
He does have one tiny redeeming feature; he supports bicycle projects.  (How's that for damming with faint praise!)

Does anyone remember if he had opposition in his last election or, if so, who it was?

No opposition.

He wouldnt be there if it werent for Suzanne Jenkins and George Banks not being able to come to an accomodation.

The office of district 4 is run by his very capable council assistant, Scott.  Without him, Redman's basic illiteracy and unfamiliarity with the democratic process would have collapsed about 6 months into his term.

Anyone who deals with that office is aware that Scott actually fills the seat, and as long as there is a competent person there to get things done, there hasnt been any event to cause enough constituents to revolt against him.

Most people assume that Scott will actually be running to fill Redman's seat when he term limits, and there was a lot of (apparently unfounded) speculation that he would run against Redman in the last election.

And since I think he is reading this thread, I just wanted to point out that I think this event may be the opening gambit of an effort to get rid of Redman, and assisting the minor league haircutting villain is a good way to get tarred with the same brush.

None of us know his politics, most people associated with the council have the opinion of him as being competent enough to actually run a council district without credit or the corresponding pay, and probably a good person to take the reins in his own name.  But this kind of shenanigan on Redman's part is enough to sink both men.

Doctor_K

January 11, 2013, 11:24:40 AM
How about if we draft an email denouncing the football games, fireworks, Monster Jam, et al, in the same vein as he wants to kill Met Park, and bombard his office with said requests?

While we're at it, we can also petition him to champion the removal of all playground equipment from all of the city parks, as they are meant to be oases of quite and reflection rather than swarming with noisy children?

Or would the irony be lost on him/his office?

BridgeTroll

January 11, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
How about if we draft an email denouncing the football games, fireworks, Monster Jam, et al, in the same vein as he wants to kill Met Park, and bombard his office with said requests?

While we're at it, we can also petition him to champion the removal of all playground equipment from all of the city parks, as they are meant to be oases of quite and reflection rather than swarming with noisy children?

Or would the irony be lost on him/his office?

Or would the irony be lost on him/his office?

lol...

stephendare

January 11, 2013, 11:33:52 AM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/125494244283704/

This is the facebook group that formed this morning that I was asked to join an hour ago.

"Don Redman must go!"

Its already got hundreds of members.

Ocklawaha

January 11, 2013, 12:21:36 PM
It's got hundreds + 1 members now!

Quote
...Well, either you're closing your eyes
To a situation you do now wish to acknowledge
Or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated
By the presence of a amphitheater in your community.
Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
I say, trouble right here in River City...

Let's not forget that little Johnny Peyton spoke prior to the charette to decide the fate of the Kids Kampus completely poisoning the process. Peyton's dictation went something like this; "We are very short of 'flex space' for tailgate parties and we simply must clear the park of all of it's space obstructing kiddie junk." Like a herd of lemmings the entire attendance dutifully  wiped out the closest thing to a theme park offered in Jacksonville.

This same crew also wiped out the seating at the end of Hogan Street on the Riverwalk and has pushed to eliminate any other human amenities in downtown. The gaping hole in our foot seems to originate from our own pistol! Could it be that Don Redman is the Antichrist? We have met the enemy and they are us!

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 12:44:35 PM
Quote
I'm sure that I've read it on here somewhere before, but didn't the original plans for metropark contain a design for a real amphitheater?

And weren't those original plans deterred by the same people across the river for the same reasons, noise?

Dogwalker, I believe, was part of the group that was against it, but I could be mistaken.

Nope, you are not mistaken about my involvement in stopping the amphitheater.  You are mistaken to think it was a part of the original plan for Metropolitan Park.  It was a scheme cooked up by Rick Mullaney to benefit some friends of his.  He was also going transfer a public park over to ownership by a private corporation.

He was chief of staff to Delaney at the time and got caught hiding some correspondence that he should have revealed to numerous public records requests.  Rather than see him prosecuted, the mayor decided to drop the whole thing.  I think it was a major embarrassment to Delaney.


That's a totally erroneous account of what happened. The amphitheater project wasn't initiated by Rick, though he was a major backer and promoter of it. It was also endorsed by John Delaney, my father, as well as his administration and all those in Jacksonville who wanted a thriving scene for music and culture.

Rick and co identified (correctly) that that kind of structure was becoming the trend in civic concert venues, and felt (correctly) that it would bring dozens of events to the city. Rick did not "hide correspondence", nor was there ever any threat of "prosecution" for anything he (or anyone else) did. You're either misremembering or misrepresenting the situation. It's true, however, that the St. Nicholas noise campaigners and their misinformation campaign were part of the reason the project was killed. However, the only "embarassment" was that a handful of myopic whiners were able to derail a forward-thinking project that was desired by the majority of the city.

As a result, the metro area has missed out on literally hundreds of concerts and cultural events that otherwise would have come here, Downtown lost an opportunity to turn Met Park into a real destination, and the urban core remains silent as a tomb most of the year.

Good work, Dog Walker.

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 12:46:55 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/125494244283704/

This is the facebook group that formed this morning that I was asked to join an hour ago.

"Don Redman must go!"

Its already got hundreds of members.

Where were all those people when he ran unopposed?

Cheshire Cat

January 11, 2013, 01:08:48 PM
Thanks for correcting the spelling of Don's last name guys.  Realized I spelled it wrong in my sleep last night.  Yes, I was having a nightmare.   lol

scottwilson

January 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
As Noone says we need to let the legislative process take its course. This is about the decibel level. When residents say they cannot hear their TV in the living room because of music it might be too loud. When these concerts are held I understand they start practicing around 9am and go to 11pm at night. That is a long time to listen to music, especially when you did not request it.

I want to find a solution. Give me your feedback if you want to help.

Would you still attend if the decibel level is a little lower?

Would you attend these events at Cecil Commerce Center?

What would it cost to add temporary sound walls? 

And Thank you for the compliment Stephen.

tufsu1

January 11, 2013, 01:16:26 PM

Would you still attend if the decibel level is a little lower?

Would you attend these events at Cecil Commerce Center?

maybe....and NO WAY

acme54321

January 11, 2013, 01:21:08 PM
As Noone says we need to let the legislative process take its course. This is about the decibel level. When residents say they cannot hear their TV in the living room because of music it might be too loud. When these concerts are held I understand they start practicing around 9am and go to 11pm at night. That is a long time to listen to music, especially when you did not request it.

I want to find a solution. Give me your feedback if you want to help.

Would you still attend if the decibel level is a little lower?

Would you attend these events at Cecil Commerce Center?

What would it cost to add temporary sound walls? 

And Thank you for the compliment Stephen.

I live in the neighborhood directly accross the water from Met Park.  Yes you can clearly hear the music, sometimes even inside.  On weekend nights... whatever.  I could understand the people's issues if it's still going on at 11pm on a Sunday.  That said, this is rarely an issue.  The only concert that is really noticable has been the big ticket, once a year.  I went this year so I obviously have no problem with it.   So sorry you bough a waterfront house across the river from a concert venue and a stadium, boo hoo life is aweful  ::).  Do they complain about the noise from Jags games too? 

And no I won't go to anything like this at Cecil.  To give up a great venue location like Met Park for Cecil is ridiculous.

If it's really affecting people's quality of life I will gladly trade my house for any on the St. John's with a great view of downtown, the stadium, and the Hart bridge.

fsujax

January 11, 2013, 01:23:22 PM
I dont think too many people would even notice a lower decibel level. Concerts belong downtown not way out in BFE.

thelakelander

January 11, 2013, 01:23:32 PM
No way should any events be moved from downtown to Cecil Commerce Center and that includes the fairgrounds, imo.

scottwilson

January 11, 2013, 01:47:21 PM
But I am hearing that a lower decibel level could be acceptable.

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 01:49:26 PM
The way we do it at UNF is to run a check beforehand to make sure we're within whatever the proper noise level is. Concerts run until 10 on weekdays and 11 on weekends, after which time we shut them down (we've even pulled the plug before). When we receive noise complaints, my boss, the VP for Student Affairs, sends them a polite response, but make it clear we're not going to do away with concerts (it's a college after all). We've gotten increasing fewer complaints just in the 2 years I've been here, though we've had more events out there.

The restrictions on the Southside are pretty fair and easily followed; one would expect there to be fewer restrictions downtown, especially with the hours.

mbwright

January 11, 2013, 02:26:53 PM
That approach is too logical, it can't possibly be implemented at Metro Park. Sound checks, conforming to time?   :P  I don't think Redman would understand.

fieldafm

January 11, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Classic Don Redman answer to everything he doesn't like... Ship them to the Westside. 

Brilliant! 

And if you have some magic beans that sprout money... I could give you 45,000 ways that public money can be spent that have a higher utility than constructing an Ampitheatre in the middle of nowhere. 

fsujax

January 11, 2013, 03:25:02 PM
We need to get Don occupied with biking issues and leave this other stuff alone. Focus on what you are good at.

Josh

January 11, 2013, 03:33:08 PM
We need to get Don occupied with biking issues and leave this other stuff alone. Focus on what you are good at.

I've read people on here in the past say he's good on biking issues, but does anyone know what any of his accomplishments actually are? Where was he when those new intersections on Laura Street butchered the roads for bikers (not to mention drivers too)?

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
Tacachale, 

I think the world of your father who has proved what a great person he is over and over again.  Rick Mullaney is a scumbag, lowlife and events happened just as I outlined them.  Dick Suddath and I were the people who put up the money to hire lawyer Sid Ansbacher, fondly known as "The King of Public Records Requests".

An inside source in the courthouse told him about the letter of agreement between Mullaney and the Amphitheater developers that he was not releasing although it was covered by the records requests.  His bar membership could have been affected had we sued him about the issue as it was a clear violation of the Sunshine law.

We dodged a bullet on that amphitheater project.  There have been endless problems with them where they were built both because of noise and behaviors.  We got the Veteran's Arena instead and there is a concert there tomorrow night that everyone will enjoy and that will disturb no one.

We also dodged a major bullet when Mullaney lost the mayor's race.

urban_Savvy

January 11, 2013, 03:43:27 PM
Don should really lobby for the creation of a full time Bike/Ped Coordinator position either in the Mayor's office or the Planning Department. if he's so good at bike issues, why do I not hear more about pushing for this position?

The local bike advocacy groups came together and gifted the Mayor with a bike a few months ago....Ok, well...what has happened since then? Isn't it about time to leverage that good will toward getting something positive done for the community?

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 03:45:57 PM
The way we do it at UNF is to run a check beforehand to make sure we're within whatever the proper noise level is. Concerts run until 10 on weekdays and 11 on weekends, after which time we shut them down (we've even pulled the plug before). When we receive noise complaints, my boss, the VP for Student Affairs, sends them a polite response, but make it clear we're not going to do away with concerts (it's a college after all). We've gotten increasing fewer complaints just in the 2 years I've been here, though we've had more events out there.

The restrictions on the Southside are pretty fair and easily followed; one would expect there to be fewer restrictions downtown, especially with the hours.

Common sense solutions don't always satisfy everyone so your VP is reacting very wisely.

Dog Walker

January 11, 2013, 03:50:45 PM
Redman's advocacy of bicycle issues might hurt them given his reputation with the rest of the Council and Administration.

tufsu1

January 11, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
Don should really lobby for the creation of a full time Bike/Ped Coordinator position either in the Mayor's office or the Planning Department. if he's so good at bike issues, why do I not hear more about pushing for this position?

The local bike advocacy groups came together and gifted the Mayor with a bike a few months ago....Ok, well...what has happened since then? Isn't it about time to leverage that good will toward getting something positive done for the community?



That is in process

Tacachale

January 11, 2013, 05:13:13 PM
Tacachale, 

I think the world of your father who has proved what a great person he is over and over again.  Rick Mullaney is a scumbag, lowlife and events happened just as I outlined them.  Dick Suddath and I were the people who put up the money to hire lawyer Sid Ansbacher, fondly known as "The King of Public Records Requests".

An inside source in the courthouse told him about the letter of agreement between Mullaney and the Amphitheater developers that he was not releasing although it was covered by the records requests.  His bar membership could have been affected had we sued him about the issue as it was a clear violation of the Sunshine law.

We dodged a bullet on that amphitheater project.  There have been endless problems with them where they were built both because of noise and behaviors.  We got the Veteran's Arena instead and there is a concert there tomorrow night that everyone will enjoy and that will disturb no one.

We also dodged a major bullet when Mullaney lost the mayor's race.

Yes, I recall you guys threatening to file all manner of lawsuits to get your way. Nothing ever came from any of that, let alone "prosecution". And it was certainly not the reason the project was abandoned, though of course the misinformation campaign played a big part in draining the political will.

So what did we lose out on? Literally hundreds of shows who book upper-mid size venues, who currently skip Jax because there's no suitable facility in town for them. Thousands of people enjoying our downtown every year. Unfortunately, some people don't understand that a vibrant downtown will be, well, vibrant.

As for Rick, I'll say that I totally disagree with your characterization of him, and leave it at that.

Floridakrakker

January 11, 2013, 05:18:23 PM
Redmon is a FOOL!

kreger

January 11, 2013, 06:06:44 PM
Let's get rid of him now, give Scott his chance already.

Scott A Wilson

January 11, 2013, 07:26:17 PM
Classic Don Redman answer to everything he doesn't like... Ship them to the Westside. 

Brilliant! 

And if you have some magic beans that sprout money... I could give you 45,000 ways that public money can be spent that have a higher utility than constructing an Ampitheatre in the middle of nowhere.
I think Scott Wilson asked that question. It is all about open dialogue.

tufsu1

January 11, 2013, 10:12:23 PM
^ Thanks for coming on here to seek public comment Scott....just wish this had been done prior to filing the legislation

Ocklawaha

January 11, 2013, 10:48:58 PM

Tucson's first Cyclovia, in AZ. / Bogota Sunday!

Perhaps we could show Redman the Spanish Cyclovia concept. Basically shutting down a few major arterials that are lightly used on weekends or Sundays. Thousands of bicycles hit the trail and it is awesome.

An example would be to shut the eastbound side of the Arlington Expressway, for 6 to 8 hours. Tie that to closure of Bay and AP Randolph for the same period and watch the venue explode. Skates, bikes, skateboards, wheelchairs, pogo sticks, puppies and great danes... it's a wonderful way to know your city.

RexMontana

January 11, 2013, 11:56:44 PM
The next election cannot come too soon. How on Earth did we vote all of these people into office in the first place? We won't need to worry about the noise level much longer, as the Saint Augustine Amphitheatre is attracting all of the musical acts to their venue faster than you can say First Baptist Church. Saint Augustine even passed the human rights ordinance that our dumb City Council failed to pass. All this in the "Bold New City of the South!" Jokesonville continues to be the laughing stock of the entire nation.

stephendare

January 12, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
Let's get rid of him now, give Scott his chance already.

^ Thanks for coming on here to seek public comment Scott....just wish this had been done prior to filing the legislation

yes, thanks scott. Its nice to hear from you!

I think people would be more understanding of a change in decibels.

But there has to be a place in the city where "The City" can actually happen.

Charles Hunter

January 12, 2013, 07:03:39 AM
A change in decibels, and a cut-off time.

Perhaps Scott is proposing something so absurd that a decibels and curfew will be palatable?  Guess it depends on the author - if Scott, I could see this; if Don, well, the language is what he wants.

sheclown

January 12, 2013, 07:18:31 AM
Let's get rid of him now, give Scott his chance already.

^ Thanks for coming on here to seek public comment Scott....just wish this had been done prior to filing the legislation

yes, thanks scott. Its nice to hear from you!

I think people would be more understanding of a change in decibels.

But there has to be a place in the city where "The City" can actually happen.


sounds like a campaign slogan

Ocklawaha

January 12, 2013, 10:57:51 AM
Yep, suggest we build a new amphitheater at the corner of Moncrief and Myrtle and there won't  be a chirp in a carload.

blfair

January 12, 2013, 04:28:18 PM
maybe we could actually get his name right?  Its Don Redman

and while I disagree with the bill, folks should know that the X102.9 concert in December was quite loud....from my house a mile away from the park, I could clearly sing along with the last band at almost 11pm on a Sunday night.

lots of ampitheaters in the country deal with this issue....Merriweather Post Pavilion in MD has had resterictions put on it and the ampitheater in Tampa lost a lawsuit and had to install noise walls

I was thinking the same thing. I was woken up at 7:30AM by James Brown (sound check/setup I guess), and went to bed right after Bush took the stage.

I'm not really against them using the facility for this, but I think they probably pushed it going so late on a Sunday, and I'm not surprised to see some folks upset enough to try to act on it.

Dog Walker

January 12, 2013, 04:35:04 PM
Living in the countryside is no guarantee of quiet either.  Years ago we lived in a rural area near Tampa and frequently had to listen to a dirt track a few miles away with races that went on until two and three in the morning.  You had to shout at one another to be understood INSIDE the house.  Those dirt track cars had no mufflers and were incredibly loud.  I don't know how the people actually at the track could stand it.

Bill Hoff

January 13, 2013, 09:19:57 AM
Seems like adjusting the decibel level would do the trick.

strider

January 13, 2013, 10:03:55 AM
Noise is everywhere, no getting away from it.  Unless you get out to very remote places and then the crickets can be almost too much to bear.  I was saddened to see that a study was actually done over train whistles.  100K per crossing?  Does anyone realize that in the end, things like that cost everyone of us the money it costs to do it? To change what has been around for literally 100's of years?  Airports often have noise polices.  Are you aware that those policies actually add to your risk during take off and landings? To satisfy the complaints from a few who chose to buy by the airports to start with?  Frankly, I don't like the fact that the fireworks not only cost me personally (my tax dollars) but also cause others to fire their guns to join the fun. Should we ban the fireworks because I complain about it?  Not hardly.  At some point, common sense has to kick in.

From reading this thread, it seems that those that blocked the original amphitheatre may have actually added to the problem.  If we don't have a properly designed amphitheatre, just reducing the decibels may aggravate the issue.  Bad "white noise" can be worse than hearing the music.  Would a properly designed and built amphitheatre not still allow a proper concert experience while allowing the decibel levels to be controlled better?  In other words, would it not be easier to control the sound levels for everyone? 

Adding things like temporary sound walls put up and taken down at every concert seems like a large additional expense that could effectively kill the site for concerts anyway.  A permanent one paid for by us taxpayers kills the park in other ways.  The solution may be to go back to the original idea and rebuild the amphitheatre properly and then everyone wins.  The complaining residents get their reduced noise levels and the concert goers get more concerts.  And perhaps the city gets a better revenue stream.

Noone

January 13, 2013, 10:56:38 AM
^ Thanks for coming on here to seek public comment Scott....just wish this had been done prior to filing the legislation

Withdraw the legislation. You did it with Halloween. We continue to just totally crush the Public Trust.  We now have a brand new DIA/CRA in the USA with a 20 plus mile Authority Zone and this now needs to be the number one topic for discussion for the foggy Vision of 2025 at JCCI.

Councilman Redman, Scott, Just share the bid amounts for the slab that needs to be poured for the new clock. Does anyone on Metrojax have any clue as to how many bids have been received for this? I'm serious. This out of control quagmire is happening right now in Waterways. We are so LOST. We are the biggest JOKE in the state of Florida as it relates to FIND.

Scott, Don or Don, Scott you were the Chair of Waterways last year and we left $500,000 of our ad valorem property tax revenue on the table and because of the Backroom stuff that you all are so proud of we now have 2012-402. Share with everyone the status of the Pottsburg Creek dredge. let's hear some NOISE on this one. Good or Bad.

In the meantime. Ben Warner JCCI we now need to kayak Downtown not only before 2025 but at the Super Duper non identified super Mayor Brown kayak access point at Palmer Terrace Park in Dist. 4 which gives everyone immediate and direct access at low and high tide to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initiative.

Is Tony N still in the Pen?

I am Downtown and why you may never be.



Tacachale

January 13, 2013, 11:29:40 AM
Noise is everywhere, no getting away from it.  Unless you get out to very remote places and then the crickets can be almost too much to bear.  I was saddened to see that a study was actually done over train whistles.  100K per crossing?  Does anyone realize that in the end, things like that cost everyone of us the money it costs to do it? To change what has been around for literally 100's of years?  Airports often have noise polices.  Are you aware that those policies actually add to your risk during take off and landings? To satisfy the complaints from a few who chose to buy by the airports to start with?  Frankly, I don't like the fact that the fireworks not only cost me personally (my tax dollars) but also cause others to fire their guns to join the fun. Should we ban the fireworks because I complain about it?  Not hardly.  At some point, common sense has to kick in.

From reading this thread, it seems that those that blocked the original amphitheatre may have actually added to the problem.  If we don't have a properly designed amphitheatre, just reducing the decibels may aggravate the issue.  Bad "white noise" can be worse than hearing the music.  Would a properly designed and built amphitheatre not still allow a proper concert experience while allowing the decibel levels to be controlled better?  In other words, would it not be easier to control the sound levels for everyone? 

Adding things like temporary sound walls put up and taken down at every concert seems like a large additional expense that could effectively kill the site for concerts anyway.  A permanent one paid for by us taxpayers kills the park in other ways.  The solution may be to go back to the original idea and rebuild the amphitheatre properly and then everyone wins.  The complaining residents get their reduced noise levels and the concert goers get more concerts.  And perhaps the city gets a better revenue stream.

There's no question things are worse now than if we had a real ampitheater with modern acoustics and sound dampening, as well as an invested contractor overseeing concerts and holding them to the rules. Unfortunately it's unlikely to ever happen, due to the influence we allow the complainers, among other things. In this case we're just going to have to hold to fix what we've got and make sure we don't lose it.

SoundGuy

January 13, 2013, 06:49:36 PM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.


    I am pretty sure that this ordinance is being pushed under the guise of noise complaints, it even says so in the bill summary. I am sure someone was walking out of church on a Sunday during Welcome to Rockville or The Big Ticket when they could hear F bombs ripping across the river. They ran to their Councilman, who they know is a avid member and usher at First Baptist Church (aka-city hall), they know this because on the coj.net site that is really his only acheivement, that and the fact that he has kept a barber shop running for 40 years. Now here comes Good "Ol Don to the rescue. These are the same type of people that have boycotted movies right out of theaters in our city. If this was just about noise pollution on a school night, then Jags and Suns night time home games are all prime for the picking, as is the fireworks and mortars used at these events.
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events. If you push an unacceptable decibel limit on the entertainment district, your precious sporting events will have to comply also(rules are rules). That rules also appies to setting an end time earlier than 11pm, since night time games that start at 8 sometimes run until midnight. I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

Adam W

January 14, 2013, 03:32:33 AM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

I doubt that. Most of the complainants are probably people who live across the water from the Park and who are actually impacted by the noise. We may not agree with Redman's attempts to stop concerts in the Park (I think it's ludicrous), but that doesn't mean the people living across the water aren't actually impacted by the noise. Whether or not their complaints are reasonable is another issue. I think they may be reasonable, or more accurately, I cannot answer one way or another, as I do not live in their houses and don't have to deal with it myself - it wouldn't be fair of me to dismiss the concern out of hand.

The better solution would be to find a workable compromise. A curfew for concerts at the Park might work as well as perhaps some sort of rule regarding decibel levels - as suggested - might help. I don't agree with your contention that it would have to cover Jaguars games as well, as there is no reason to believe that a rule or ordinance couldn't be drafted in a way that would allow for exceptions or have specific language targeting a particular venue. But I'm not a lawyer.

Ideally we should have a fit-for-purpose amphitheater in the Park. But that seems even further away now in light of this present complaint.

triclops i

January 14, 2013, 03:53:58 AM
If you moved the amphitheater from metro to say....the half mile of empty space between metro and berkman plaza....would that make a difference?

tufsu1

January 14, 2013, 08:28:39 AM
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events.

huh?

ChriswUfGator

January 14, 2013, 11:17:49 AM
     As far as imposing a decibel limit, that can not be done without the sound of the show being comprimised. ALL artist contracts include a safe operating decibel level. So to impose that ordinance would cause artist to not play your events.

huh?

Seems clear enough to me. The T&C riders on most major artists' contracts require a certain sound setup, if you can't deliver that, including what they consider to be acceptable amplification, then the artist generally won't sign. It's that simple. What performer wants to show up and have to yell over a crowd? It's a concert with thousands of people in a crowd, it's not a freestyle poetry reading.

tufsu1

January 14, 2013, 11:47:23 AM
so the "safe operating decibel level" referred to is a minimum?

SoundGuy

January 14, 2013, 12:07:33 PM
so the "safe operating decibel level" referred to is a minimum?

That is correct, this is usually based off of not wanting to cause permanent hearing loss to you fans. 

tufsu1

January 14, 2013, 01:28:40 PM
so it isn't a minimum...but instead a maximum?

if that's the case, then reaching a compromise should be pretty easy.

SoundGuy

January 14, 2013, 04:45:35 PM
The Metro Park bill is about the noise. The decibel level, the length of the concerts etc. If someone has a suggestion to reduce the noise level for the Southbank residents at a reasonable cost I would love to hear it. What is an acceptable decibel level for those who must go to work early the next morning? How loud is too loud while you are in your own home even in the afternoon? Some have children that attend school on Monday morning. I imagine you will hear from the supporters at the public hearing because they are the ones who have to live with it.This has been an issue for a long time and to date no reasonable solutions have been identified.

I am certain that if you had a country event in the park, most of the complaintants would be outside barbecuing and enjoying the free show.

I doubt that. Most of the complainants are probably people who live across the water from the Park and who are actually impacted by the noise. We may not agree with Redman's attempts to stop concerts in the Park (I think it's ludicrous), but that doesn't mean the people living across the water aren't actually impacted by the noise. Whether or not their complaints are reasonable is another issue. I think they may be reasonable, or more accurately, I cannot answer one way or another, as I do not live in their houses and don't have to deal with it myself - it wouldn't be fair of me to dismiss the concern out of hand.

The better solution would be to find a workable compromise. A curfew for concerts at the Park might work as well as perhaps some sort of rule regarding decibel levels - as suggested - might help. I don't agree with your contention that it would have to cover Jaguars games as well, as there is no reason to believe that a rule or ordinance couldn't be drafted in a way that would allow for exceptions or have specific language targeting a particular venue. But I'm not a lawyer.

Ideally we should have a fit-for-purpose amphitheater in the Park. But that seems even further away now in light of this present complaint.

Actually, I found out today that there is a particular church that made a complaint due to hearing offensive language at about 6pm, which happen to be around the same time their service started. The main complaint from a homeowner is coming from a woman that bought a house right on the river in 2004. She is the same one that started putting together meetings at Havana Jax. The complaint from her was more about being outside and hearing it, not from inside the home. I know someone who lives on the river near BK, who has double pane windows in his house, says that he can hear Jags game announcers better than the concerts, depending on the wind. I am sure that an ordinance could be drafted with the proper language for the stadium to not have to abide by laws set for everyone else, but then you end up with a whole different legal matter on your hands.
 
      I agree that the construction of a venue that would curb the sound issue would be nice, but I am pretty sure that the city is broke after the courthouse debacle. Besides, just like when budget cuts to schools occur, the first thing to go is music and arts programs because they don't make the school any money, just do the math on SMG's parking lots alone.

Ocklawaha

January 14, 2013, 06:51:50 PM
If you are sitting in a boat or in St. Nicholas, a sound coming from the north shore will sound louder than the same sound heard by a person on land. Sound can be amplified when it travels over water.

The reason is that the water cools the air above its surface, which then slows down the sound waves near the surface. This causes refraction or bending of the sound wave, such that more sound reaches the boat passenger or St Nicholas resident. Sound waves skimming the surface of the water can add to the amplification effect, if the water is calm.

The speed of sound is the distance travelled during a unit of time by a sound wave propagating through an elastic medium. In dry air at 68 °F, the speed of sound is 1,126 ft/s. This is 768 mph, or approximately one mile in five seconds.

However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air. It travels about 4.3 times as fast in water 4868.766 f/s, and nearly 15 times as fast in iron 16,797.9 f/s than in air at 68F degrees.

Just hold the concerts on wet windy days when the water is at a chop and you'll have no complaints.

Noone

January 15, 2013, 02:07:17 AM
As Noone says we need to let the legislative process take its course.


Withdraw the legislation. Every news media outlet should be contacting Ben Warner, Mayor Brown, Alan Verlander, and it should be one of the top discussions for 2025. We now have an expanded Entertainment Zone. When and where was the neighborhood meeting?

The legislative process should not be used as a legislative tool to destroy the Public Trust in the circumventing a bigger hidden agenda by our elected legislative representatives.

Was at city Hall and the Rules Committee was finishing grabbed an agenda and within in an hour was standing on the sandy beach of Palmer Terrace Park Dist. 4 across from Metro Park that still needs a Mayor Brown Kayak launch logo. It was a high tide and people were fishing at Holmesdale Ave. Can we put a table and chair from Hemming Plaza  that you are removing and relocate them at Holmesdale Ave. and Palmer Terrace Park? Is there a relocation plan for all this equipment or is it going to be ripped out and taken to the scrap yard? let's handle one disaster at a time before creating a new one. The manipulation of FIND grant money is another example that comes to mind. Can you share one bid price for the slab of concrete for the new clock?

You come on these forums which is good and you see everyone especially when it gets around to election time and then completely ignore the questions on the same forums that you search out to get your emergency legislation passed.



heatherlfdx

January 16, 2013, 02:23:13 AM
http://www.causes.com/causes/810291-no-more-concerts-at-met-park-please-don-t-ignore/about
unfortunately the facebook causes.com app has just caused me a world of spamming, emailing, and phishing. all 299 people on my friends list were messaged with an invite to a cause i had not even read yet the second i clicked on the link to read about it. took 10 damn minutes to block the app, have all the comments deleted, delete 6 emails from causes.com, and remove myself from the website's auto-registration feature.
sooo, assuming this website isn't just a big ol phishing site and its a fault in the fb app, how will this online petition be presented to the city council on jan 22nd before the 5pm hearing?
here is don redman's email address Redman@coj.net. write an intelligent email to him not one of those "hey f__ker you better not if you know whats good for you you suck kiss my lilly white butt" emails.
you may also go to the meeting
Jacksonville City Hall; 117 West Duval Street #425 Jacksonville, FL 32202
IF YOU WISH TO SPEAK AT THIS HEARING: Upon arrival you must fill out a speaker card; you will have three minutes to intelligently articulate why you oppose this bill.

SoundGuy

January 16, 2013, 11:47:21 PM
http://www.causes.com/causes/810291-no-more-concerts-at-met-park-please-don-t-ignore/about
unfortunately the facebook causes.com app has just caused me a world of spamming, emailing, and phishing. all 299 people on my friends list were messaged with an invite to a cause i had not even read yet the second i clicked on the link to read about it. took 10 damn minutes to block the app, have all the comments deleted, delete 6 emails from causes.com, and remove myself from the website's auto-registration feature.
sooo, assuming this website isn't just a big ol phishing site and its a fault in the fb app, how will this online petition be presented to the city council on jan 22nd before the 5pm hearing?
here is don redman's email address Redman@coj.net. write an intelligent email to him not one of those "hey f__ker you better not if you know whats good for you you suck kiss my lilly white butt" emails.
you may also go to the meeting
Jacksonville City Hall; 117 West Duval Street #425 Jacksonville, FL 32202
IF YOU WISH TO SPEAK AT THIS HEARING: Upon arrival you must fill out a speaker card; you will have three minutes to intelligently articulate why you oppose this bill.
I am the one that started the cause and have more hard copy petitions circulating around town. I appologize for the facebook app being a pain in the ass, but it was an excellent way to get the word out quickly. I have had an overwhelming number of responses, so my plan worked.

ramonhernandezjr

January 17, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
I say great! Move all the concerts out to the Cecil Commerce area. There is plenty of room for an outdoor amphitheater. You can build it near the hangers which are far enough away from Cecil Pines.

thelakelander

January 17, 2013, 08:26:10 PM
It was recommended to me today to check the details of the funding of Metropolitan Park during the Godbold era.  Evidently, the city used federal money for the park's construction and that the 12 events are required as a part of accepting federal money.  If we eliminate those events, we could end up having to pay the feds back the money given for it's construction.

Scott A Wilson

January 18, 2013, 05:59:04 AM
It was recommended to me today to check the details of the funding of Metropolitan Park during the Godbold era.  Evidently, the city used federal money for the park's construction and that the 12 events are required as a part of accepting federal money.  If we eliminate those events, we could end up having to pay the feds back the money given for it's construction.
We are working on a solution that will reduce the decibel level.

Charles Hunter

January 18, 2013, 06:23:28 AM
Scott - are you also considering a reasonable curfew (say 11:00pm), like the St. Augustine Amphitheater has?  As someone said (SoundGuy?) earlier, too stringent limits on decibels could affect the shows themselves.

Scott A Wilson

January 18, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
Scott - are you also considering a reasonable curfew (say 11:00pm), like the St. Augustine Amphitheater has?  As someone said (SoundGuy?) earlier, too stringent limits on decibels could affect the shows themselves.
Yes, they currently stop at 11pm which I think is a little late on a Sunday night. There are only a couple of events that turn the sound up to a point where the Southbank folks are bothered inside their homes. it becomes a real nuisance when the cloud cover is low. Trying to identify the correct decibel level and base level is difficult because it depends on the weather.

Dog Walker

January 18, 2013, 10:05:55 AM
The weather has a huge effect on how the sound travels across the river.  Maybe there is some sort of remote decibel monitor that could be mounted on the other side of the river to monitor how the sound is hitting there.

I've seen some outdoor venues in Europe that have multiple, smaller speakers surrounding the area all facing into the audience.  That seemed to give the same audience experience without having to blast the sound from just the stage.  Don't know if that sort of setup would work in this situation though, since the bands travel with their own sound equipment.

comncense

January 18, 2013, 10:44:13 AM
It's funny, I live on the NorthBank at the Berkman and I rarely am bothered by the sound level of concerts at Metro Park. Wouldn't the noise be even more of an issue for those of us here on the NorthBank as compared to SouthBank residents?

scottwilson

January 18, 2013, 11:29:50 AM
It's funny, I live on the NorthBank at the Berkman and I rarely am bothered by the sound level of concerts at Metro Park. Wouldn't the noise be even more of an issue for those of us here on the NorthBank as compared to SouthBank residents?
The residents on the Southbank live in older homes. I also think the sound travels quicker across the river.

Ocklawaha

January 18, 2013, 12:27:50 PM
I say great! Move all the concerts out to the Cecil Commerce area. There is plenty of room for an outdoor amphitheater. You can build it near the hangers which are far enough away from Cecil Pines.

And the death of downtown Jacksonville will continue...

The whole reason why downtown has long suffered from a lack of vibrancy is/was our spread ourselves over 874.3 square miles rather then concentrating our energy on urban core.  If we want to live in a truly great city then we simply MUST find more reasons to be in downtown.

Shine

January 18, 2013, 12:44:09 PM
It's funny, I live on the NorthBank at the Berkman and I rarely am bothered by the sound level of concerts at Metro Park. Wouldn't the noise be even more of an issue for those of us here on the NorthBank as compared to SouthBank residents?
The residents on the Southbank live in older homes. I also think the sound travels quicker across the river.
Apologize for joining the discussion late.  But ScottWilson’s comment is accurate – water transmits sound easily.  I know this has been an issue for St. Nicolas residents have been fighting and dealing with for close to 20 years now.  I am kind of taken a-back by some of the comments here when Metro-Jax is usually a highly pro-citizen group.  This is a very real issue for the people living on the South Bank.  I am not going to say all concerts in MetPark need to come to an end, but I don’t think the city has effectively managed the issue and the record shows the citizens on the south bank were treated poorly by some in the city over the years.  Need a solution that works both sides.  I have a hard time with people slinging mud at Don Redman when is goal is to help everyday citizens.

Tacachale

January 18, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
^The Sports Complex area has been a place for outdoor events and concerts for over 60 years. While the city should do what it can to mitigate the impact, it shouldn't be expected to drop downtown events and projects that benefit thousands due to some noise complaints from a few.

stephendare

January 18, 2013, 01:27:15 PM
It's funny, I live on the NorthBank at the Berkman and I rarely am bothered by the sound level of concerts at Metro Park. Wouldn't the noise be even more of an issue for those of us here on the NorthBank as compared to SouthBank residents?
The residents on the Southbank live in older homes. I also think the sound travels quicker across the river.
Apologize for joining the discussion late.  But ScottWilson’s comment is accurate – water transmits sound easily.  I know this has been an issue for St. Nicolas residents have been fighting and dealing with for close to 20 years now.  I am kind of taken a-back by some of the comments here when Metro-Jax is usually a highly pro-citizen group.  This is a very real issue for the people living on the South Bank.  I am not going to say all concerts in MetPark need to come to an end, but I don’t think the city has effectively managed the issue and the record shows the citizens on the south bank were treated poorly by some in the city over the years.  Need a solution that works both sides.  I have a hard time with people slinging mud at Don Redman when is goal is to help everyday citizens.

meh Scott.

You cannot help a few citizens by shutting down the enjoyment of the majority of the citizens.

Why not close down all the airports, shut down the railroads at night and forbid people from being able to use more than one lane of a highway if it passes through a residential neighborhood.

What next?  Light pollution?

Should the cities be required to turn off all the bright lights at night because some people invent a right to natural darkness?

fsujax

January 18, 2013, 01:30:52 PM
well, Stephen the City is already shutting off lights, I noticed JEA out tagging street lights lights that will be turned off all along Myrtle Ave the other day. Not to mention our skyline has been darkening ever since the Super Bowl. Dont give them anymore ideas! :-)

cline

January 18, 2013, 01:32:10 PM
Quote
I have a hard time with people slinging mud at Don Redman when is goal is to help everyday citizens.

I'm an everyday citizen.  Shutting down concerts at Met Park doesn't help me at all.

tufsu1

January 18, 2013, 02:16:55 PM
Hopefully, setting appropriate noise limits and a reasonable ending time for concerts will be a good solution for all

Shine

January 19, 2013, 08:17:51 AM

You cannot help a few citizens by shutting down the enjoyment of the majority of the citizens.

Why not close down all the airports, shut down the railroads at night and forbid people from being able to use more than one lane of a highway if it passes through a residential neighborhood.

What next?  Light pollution?

Should the cities be required to turn off all the bright lights at night because some people invent a right to natural darkness?

Never said I was for shutting down all concerts.  But, your points make my case.  All the things you list are things managed and mitigated by nearly all municipal governments and associated authorities.  Do we manage and reduce lights on the shoreline during sea turtle nesting season?  Are airport traffic patterns modified to minimize noise in nearby communities?  When I read this bill, it makes the noise levels subject to the noise ordinance – I don’t see where it shuts them down.  So, help me understand where the “shutdown” is coming from.  As for dismissing the rights of the few to benefit the rights of the many, that is certainly the brand of tyrannical government in my opinion.  Plenty of examples where that practice did not work out too well in America’s past.  My point, again, is the south bank has a legitimate issue.  There is probably a middle ground that would help both sides.   

spuwho

January 19, 2013, 01:00:18 PM

What next?  Light pollution?

Should the cities be required to turn off all the bright lights at night because some people invent a right to natural darkness?

That's what some people say about global warming. Shut off your coal fired power plant doggone it, you are interfering with my right to clean air.

Clean air
Clean skies
Clean sounds

St Nicholas is saying, turn down your music, you are interfering with my right to clean sound.

Just work out a deal with the Met Park promoters on some boundaries, not a biggie. You don't have to stop the concerts in totality.

It's obviously a negotiation, Redman has staked out his position, Met Park has theirs, now be good neighbors and find a plan that works for both. How hard can that be?

kreger

January 22, 2013, 07:57:42 PM
Withdrawn! Don Redman and entire city council withdraws this bill.

Dog Walker

January 23, 2013, 11:25:30 AM
They were struck by a sudden bout of sanity!

stephendare

January 23, 2013, 01:24:35 PM
They were struck by a sudden bout of sanity!

They were struck by a sudden bout of Scott Wilson.  Kudos to the competent one from District 4.

Captain Zissou

January 23, 2013, 01:45:59 PM
As a (probable) future resident of St Nicholas, I hope to help improve the general consensous of the area.  I, for one, will be posted up at one of the many waterfront spaces in the neighborhood enjoying the free music.

mbwright

January 23, 2013, 02:30:52 PM
withdrawn usually  means no vote was taken.  It can always resurface...

fieldafm

January 23, 2013, 02:40:53 PM
I've talked with three city council members privately today on the subject... if that bill went to vote, it may have gotten 2 votes.  Most thought Redman's bill was what it was: short sighted, harmful to the city and nonsensical.

Actually, a very economical and attractive solution was presented to me today (suggested by someone who reads the message board).  Hopefully we'll hear more about this in the future and Metro Park begins to be better utilized (currently it's a rotting riverfront asset... something we sadly have an abundant supply of). 

Charles Hunter

January 25, 2013, 07:28:05 PM
Quote
(From the linked board)
The Welcome to Rockville music festival returns for a third go-round in April, this time spread over two days and featuring a distinctly Jacksonville flavor.

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Limp Bizkit and Shinedown – all with deep roots in Jacksonville – are among the acts scheduled to perform. Others include Alice in Chains, 3 Doors Down, Stone Sour, Three Days Grace, Papa Roach, Bullet for My Valentine and Asking Alexandria.

Redman's gonna have a coronary!

stephendare

January 25, 2013, 07:33:32 PM
Quote
(From the linked board)
The Welcome to Rockville music festival returns for a third go-round in April, this time spread over two days and featuring a distinctly Jacksonville flavor.

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Limp Bizkit and Shinedown – all with deep roots in Jacksonville – are among the acts scheduled to perform. Others include Alice in Chains, 3 Doors Down, Stone Sour, Three Days Grace, Papa Roach, Bullet for My Valentine and Asking Alexandria.

Redman's gonna have a coronary!

from your lips.......
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