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Large scale development and Riverside/Avondale

Riverside/Avondale Preservation explains what large scale development means for their neighborhood and shares their view on Mellow Mushroom's plans for a new location on St. Johns Avenue.

Published September 18, 2012 in Neighborhoods      101 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article


feature

All of us who live and do business in Riverside Avondale cherish the district?s unique historical, small-scale commercial areas, and recognize that the independent businesses here play an enormous role in making this a vibrant, cultured, and convenient place to live. As our commercial corridors have grown in popularity, they?ve become increasingly attractive to new businesses?and that?s a great problem to have. But growth, by its very nature, brings change and often comes with real costs.

Currently, we are dealing with intense and rapid growth in our commercial corridors. The influx of new restaurants and bars has been especially notable, with several more such enterprises in various stages of planning and development. Unquestionably, these restaurants and bars bring new visitors to the neighborhood, create a more vibrant streetscape, and help strengthen our local economy. But because of their popularity, they also bring predictable parking, traffic and noise issues. As more and more of these establishments cluster in our commercial corridors, these problems are magnified.

The core development issue that we as a community face today is this: Is more always better?

What is the tipping point that changes a vibrant neighborhood into an unreasonable environment? Or do the economic benefits of commercial growth in these tough times trump all other concerns? Both are valid questions that deserve reasoned, responsible debate.

Here at RAP, we certainly don’t have all the answers. But we do know this: The costs and benefits of development must be equitably distributed. That’s one of the core tenets of “smart growth.”

None of us wants to live in a community where all the benefits accrue to the developers at the expense of the residents’ quality of life or at the sacrifice of surrounding unique, small, locally-owned and operated businesses. Nor do we want to discourage entrepreneurs who are taking on financial risks in order to build quality businesses that they sincerely believe will enhance our neighborhood’s reputation as a dynamic and desirable place to live, work and play. That’s why each and every one of us needs to participate in an honest conversation about our community’s vision for its own future.

And that conversation needs to take place now—before things get worse, with all the facts on the table, and with the recognition that all parties deserve a seat. We must accept our shared responsibility to shape what comes next. Otherwise, to paraphrase the immortal words of Joni Mitchell, we may not know what we’ve got ‘til it’s gone.

Source: http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=229


RAP's Thoughts On Mellow Mushroom


Initial Mellow Mushroom site plan

During our initial meeting with Mellow Mushroom on April 10, 2012, we explained the neighborhood’s concerns regarding business scale and parking. We shared that RAP could not support a project that does not meet the Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay’s already reduced parking standards. These concerns were reiterated on April 26, 2012, during a community meeting RAP hosted with Councilman Jim Love specifically on the Mellow Mushroom development. The increased parking load and large scale of the proposed business was the number one concern voiced by surrounding residents and businesses, followed by noise and nuisance concerns. Many attendees noted that the available street parking and nearby surface lots in the area are already at capacity, as is street parking on surrounding residential streets (causing blocked residential driveways, parking in yards and an inability for safety vehicles to travel down residential streets).

If the Overlay is not upheld then it slowly becomes a meaningless document that does not fulfill its intended purpose to protect the charming historic commercial corridors by encouraging small business and neighborhood-scale development. Under the Overlay’s rules, the Mellow Mushroom development would receive a 50% reduction in its parking requirements.



Revised August 2012 Mellow Mushroom site plan

Mellow Mushroom’s August 17, 2012 site plan showed 19 parking spaces on-site, including an on-site ADA space as required by Florida law. Under the Overlay, Mellow Mushroom would have needed to reduce their number of seats from 210 to 176 to meet the already generous exception to the regular code, as indicated below. A more recent September 7, 2012 site plan from Mellow Mushroom shows 206 seats and 22 spaces on-site. However, the site plan does not contain the on-site ADA space required by Florida law or any landscaped area to screen the parking lot from the street.


Revised September 2012 Mellow Mushroom site plan

RAP wants new businesses in the area to be successful and we support our local businesses. However, we are very concerned about the proposed size of the new Mellow Mushroom restaurant. As planned, the Mellow Mushroom will be one of the largest restaurants in our neighborhood, with a (most recently) proposed 206 seats inside and an unidentified number of outdoor seats. The existing building that the developers intend to reuse (the former restaurant/shoe store space) fit 24 exterior seats within a 50 foot stretch of building facade. Since the new building will be approximately 100 feet wide there is the potential to place an additional 72 seats outside.

The neighborhood’s focus is on the size and scale of the new addition and the proximity to the residential area. We believe the development, as presently proposed, will greatly increase the demand for parking in an area already experiencing severe parking problems. We have been working with the Mellow Mushroom owner, his public relations agent, architects, and legal representative, along with the City’s Planning Department, to reduce the scale and intensity of the proposed expansion so as to minimize its effect on the small Avondale commercial corridor and surrounding residential areas.

In addition to parking concerns, residents and nearby businesses have also voiced questions about the appropriateness of hours, services, or entertainment offered at this venue and the possible impact on their quality of life. Current plans for the new building feature an approximately 60-foot long bar stretching the length of the 100-foot building that is set back just 15 feet from the front facade. Glass doors slide open, making the bar accessible directly from the street and an open patio on the corner directs noise towards adjacent residences. At this time, the developer has refused to limit outdoor amplified sound, enclose the open spaces facing residential streets, or limit the use of the parking lot to parking, loading and deliveries only.


RAP’s Recommendations

Parking

Mellow Mushroom shall meet the Zoning Overlay requirements. This has been our position from the beginning. The Overlay should not be compromised. Click here for FAQ on the Overlay.

Based on the City Office of General Counsel’s interpretation that Mellow Mushroom is “vested” with 7 (seven) parking spaces, RAP supports the following in relation to parking:

The seat count is based on being able to provide 19 parking spaces on site, per Mellow Mushroom’s August 17 site plan. If 19 spaces cannot be accommodated on the site, then seats would have to be reduced accordingly.

Mellow Mushroom must confirm in writing with the Planning Department that their seat count includes outdoor seating, including any tables and seats on the sidewalk.

Once it is confirmed that Mellow Mushroom can provide 19 spaces in the parking lot, a reduction to 176 seats would meet the Zoning Overlay requirements. This would mean that Mellow Mushroom would not need an Administrative Deviation for parking.


Parking Lot

Must build a 6’ solid wall along the alley to buffer the adjacent residential property.

Must have at least 5’ of landscaped area behind the knee wall on Ingleside—the goal being to screen the parking lot from the street.

Parking lot use restricted to parking, loading and deliveries.

Lighting in parking lot must comply with zoning code, and specifically 656.399.21(2) and 656.607(g) to prevent glare and excessive light on adjacent property.


Exception for Outside Sales and Service

Condition that final seat count includes outdoor seating (inclusive of sidewalk seats).

No music or television sound played outside or in any covered patio area after 9 p.m.

Covered patio shall be enclosed with glass on rear (parking lot side) and side (Ingleside).

Use must be a bona-fide restaurant that serves food at all times that alcohol is being served.

Exception does not run with property – it applies to this business only.

Any sliding doors must close at 12 p.m.


Design


August 2012 proposed Mellow Mushroom front elevation

Design issues with the infill portion of the project must be addressed as it is not currently compatible with the surrounding buildings and does not meet the Historic District Regulations. Current concerns include:

Open corner must be enclosed.

Building should read as two or three building facades, not one 100 foot expanse broken up into a suburban design.

A central, clearly identifiable entrance shall be created.

Large expanse of sliding doors must be converted to fixed storefront.

All materials to be utilized must be provided for review.

Submit a signage plan.

Submit a landscape plan that meets the code requirements.


September 2012 proposed Mellow Mushroom front elevation

Source: http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=230


Mellow Mushroom's position on latest proposal described above

Quote
Throughout the process of establishing Mellow Mushroom Avondale we have tried to ensure that everything we have done is transparent, collaborative, and in strict accordance  with the various laws and conventions applicable to the historic district of Avondale. As people have recognized, our cooperation with the neighborhood has been unprecedented and we have done our utmost to balance input from the community with our commitment to follow the law.

Next week, on the 27th, we go before the Planning Commission with our latest plan. We expect approval on the basis that we have met the requirement for parking under the overlay by establishing a new parking lot and bringing the number of seats in the restaurant down to 206.

For those interested in the math, every 8 seats requires 1 parking spot and every 4 employees require 1 parking spot. Our starting point is 206 seats and 14 employees: 206 seats/8=25.75 and 14 employees /4=3.5 total 29.25 (29) required parking spaces.

After subtracting out 7 vested parking spaces for ‘Town this leaves 22 spaces required, which are provided in the rear of the lot. This plan therefore meets the required parking under the overlay.

Note that unlike practically EVERY OTHER RESTAURANT IN THE SHOPPES OF AVONDALE Mellow will NOT REQUIRE an administrative deviation for parking.

We are proud of this and believe that it shows our commitment to doing what is right in the community in which we live.

Source: http://www.igetmellow.com/







101 Comments

simms3

September 18, 2012, 08:00:53 AM
No matter how MM chops up the facade, the fact remains that RAP has forced them into a suburban design despite RAP's claim otherwise.  Also, MM was not setting a "bad precedent" with its original plan.  It was simply following in the footsteps and might I add toned down version of Monty's, Casbah, Bluefish, Brick, Biscottis.  Instead, RAP has set a precedent of anti-business regulation within Avondale's premiere commercial corridor and has prevented a positive paradigm shift where the neighborhood becomes easier and more convenient for walk ups than driving in.

IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 08:05:30 AM
No matter how MM chops up the facade, the fact remains that RAP has forced them into a suburban design despite RAP's claim otherwise.  Also, MM was not setting a "bad precedent" with its original plan.  It was simply following in the footsteps and might I add toned down version of Monty's, Casbah, Bluefish, Brick, Biscottis.  Instead, RAP has set a precedent of anti-business regulation within Avondale's premiere commercial corridor and has prevented a positive paradigm shift where the neighborhood becomes easier and more convenient for walk ups than driving in.

IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design.
OMG this is right on the money! "IMHO the historic district needs to not be historic anymore and RAP should be disbanded.  I'd love to see Riverside-Avondale blossom into a thriving vibrant urban district, not a quiet/quaint suburb with a bunch of stodgy preservation freaks against any and all new development or contemporary residential design."

simms3

September 18, 2012, 08:15:34 AM
And then the hypocrisy that is most disturbing relates to noise and congestion.

1) There are MMs everywhere.  People will not pack the streets with their cars to come eat at MM if they are not already from within the area.  People from Mandarin and the beaches come in to eat at Biscottis or the Brick, but would not come all the way in for a MM because they have one.  That is such a false claim.

Point 2, if they are from within the area, some might walk.  Can we at least hope for more people walking instead of driving 3 blocks?  Force it with less parking if you have to.  And enforce tow zones.  As has been pointed out, nobody's illegally parked cars are getting towed.  My God, as soon as I moved away from Jax I totally realized that the rest of the world takes drinking and driving seriously and that your car WILL be towed if parked improperly, even for a short time.  Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).  I have dozens of quarters in my car for meters that still take them.  It's amazing what enforcing the law can do to change people's habits!!

God, everybody on the road in Jax is drunkkk all the time, especially in Ortega and Avondale and the beaches where kids and adults alike get away with murder.  Take that privilege away.  There are no cabs in town because nobody feels like they must take one.  As soon as the law starts getting enforced, all of sudden you'll see a line of cabs blocks long at every bar district waiting to take people home, making the streets that much safer and reducing the need for massive parking and people peeing and parking on people's private lots.

2) The noise issue.  MM does not have a noisy location and isn't known as a noisy restaurant.  If RAP's claim that residents and business owners are so concerned about noise pollution, why don't they shut down all the other bars and restaurants?

I'm so tired of the hypocrisy.  If people have arguments against MM, make them good points that can't be easily debated without so much as a thought, or just be blunt and state your opinion that you want the neighborhood to be quiet and boring or that you're afraid of the business competition, etc.

mbwright

September 18, 2012, 09:02:10 AM
slow learner-- "2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times. "

But I do agree, drunk driving in Jax is certainly an issue, especially with $1.00 beer nights for some events.

mbwright

September 18, 2012, 09:04:59 AM
For the most part, I do think that RAP has done far more good than bad.  The majority of the historic properties are in place, and not like parts of Springfield.  With any organization, some can go too far.  I really think the MM project should look a bit more historic, to match the existing properties.  Be careful what you wish for.  Chase all of the current or potential business out, and what will be left? 

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 09:05:06 AM
And then the hypocrisy that is most disturbing relates to noise and congestion.

1) There are MMs everywhere.  People will not pack the streets with their cars to come eat at MM if they are not already from within the area.  People from Mandarin and the beaches come in to eat at Biscottis or the Brick, but would not come all the way in for a MM because they have one.  That is such a false claim.

Point 2, if they are from within the area, some might walk.  Can we at least hope for more people walking instead of driving 3 blocks?  Force it with less parking if you have to.  And enforce tow zones.  As has been pointed out, nobody's illegally parked cars are getting towed.  My God, as soon as I moved away from Jax I totally realized that the rest of the world takes drinking and driving seriously and that your car WILL be towed if parked improperly, even for a short time.  Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).  I have dozens of quarters in my car for meters that still take them.  It's amazing what enforcing the law can do to change people's habits!!

God, everybody on the road in Jax is drunkkk all the time, especially in Ortega and Avondale and the beaches where kids and adults alike get away with murder.  Take that privilege away.  There are no cabs in town because nobody feels like they must take one.  As soon as the law starts getting enforced, all of sudden you'll see a line of cabs blocks long at every bar district waiting to take people home, making the streets that much safer and reducing the need for massive parking and people peeing and parking on people's private lots.

2) The noise issue.  MM does not have a noisy location and isn't known as a noisy restaurant.  If RAP's claim that residents and business owners are so concerned about noise pollution, why don't they shut down all the other bars and restaurants?

I'm so tired of the hypocrisy.  If people have arguments against MM, make them good points that can't be easily debated without so much as a thought, or just be blunt and state your opinion that you want the neighborhood to be quiet and boring or that you're afraid of the business competition, etc.
A lot of the residents of Avondale/Ortega act like spoiled children!

jaxjags

September 18, 2012, 09:12:05 AM
Having lived in ATL for 15 years I found this RAP article very insightful as to why JAX cannot develop vibrant neighborhoods. There is a huge amount of infill projects in ATL. They  are as varied and mixed, yet I cannot remember one that I thought was offensive, didn't fit the neighborhood or did not provide benefits to the neighborhood.

Also, I find it funny that RAP is concerned about parking. In most big cities these areas tend to serve those who live close by. That is the definition of a vibrant neighborhood.

I have a feeling they just don't want a MM. See comment about closing up the patio area on the front and closing the window doors. OK, so lets close The Brick, Biscotti's, Blue Fish, etc.

jaxlore

September 18, 2012, 09:20:09 AM
This whole thing is ridiculous. It's a Mellow Mushroom not a night club. Get over it avondale.

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 09:30:02 AM
This whole thing is ridiculous. It's a Mellow Mushroom not a night club. Get over it avondale.

Its not really avondale.  Its a small group of businesses, apparently led by the Brick and the Blue Fin, and the anti business zealots at RAP.

Many many avondale residents would prefer that the neighborhood develop fairly and more densely, and repeatedly post as such on these forums, but they are not allowed to be heard in the back door meetings and the few stage managed public hearings.

The saddest part about this is that this handful of self appointed harridans will screw the long term prospects of both the neighborhood and preservation.

None of these people are thinking about what will happen over the next decade when the price of gasoline edges up to the 8 or 10 dollars a gallon range.

They are designing and building for a car dependent environment which the neighborhood simply was not designed to accommodate, and worse: they are tying walkable business development to parking spaces.

What in the hell does anyone think will be the unintended consequence of such a ludicrous move?

I know it makes Kay Ehas and Wayne Wood feel awfully smug in the short term, but in the long term they will not be thanked for this lunkheaded move in the name of some ephemeral goal called 'scale' ----which by the way is like porn.  They can't really define it, but they know it when they see it.

As our neighborhoods are forced to become more walkable, and infill projects are the only way to deal with the cost of gas and environmental concerns, Riverside Avondale will find it necessary to start tearing down historic fabric to accommodate the future.

All because these jackasses were trying to think of a too clever by half way to outsmart a couple of restaurants in the here and now.

For people who are so monstrously likeable and otherwise positive, this is just madness.

Captain Zissou

September 18, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
Ok, so I did some editing. Though this sounds like Know Growth's normal sentence structure (or lack thereof), read through the quote below and tell me does this sound like it applies to a century old streetcar neighborhood.... Or Deercreek? 

RAP needs to learn that there is a difference between historic and charming.  Their job is to preserve history, which has in this case meant supporting higher density of residents and density of uses than we currently see today.  If they want to preserve what they believe to be a small and charming neighborhood, then they need to disband and reform as KAQ (Keep Avondale Quaint). 

I only started to single out their use of the words parking and parking lot about a quarter of the way through.  It was just so prevalent in their piece that it couldn't be ignored.  At no time did they ever suggest an alternative means of transportation. 

It is a sad day when a business owner and preservation champion is denied the opportunity to be progressive.  I would have given up if I was John, but I'm glad he has more strength than me and I hope that he realizes he'll never please RAP, so just cut your losses and continue on without their input.

 
Quote


All of us who live and do business in Riverside Avondale cherish the district?s unique historical, small-scale commercial areas.......growth, by its very nature, brings change and often comes with real costs.

We must ... paraphrase the immortal words of Joni Mitchell....
..... its intended purpose to protect the charming historic commercial corridors by encouraging small business and neighborhood-scale development. .... proposed size of the new Mellow Mushroom restaurant. ...parking... parking... parking...appropriateness of hours...parking lot to parking, loading and deliveries only.

RAP’s Recommendations
Parking
....parking....parking... parking spaces ...parking lot ....parking.


Parking Lot

....parking lot .....Parking lot use restricted to parking....parking lot

Exception for Outside Sales and Service
No music or television sound played outside or in any covered patio area after 9 p.m......parking lot......Use must be a bona-fide restaurant that serves food at all times that alcohol is being served.

Design
.....suburban design.

Tacachale

September 18, 2012, 10:08:03 AM
I like how they totally avoided mentioning they're encouraging Mellow to demolish a building to install a parking lot. It's a pretty sad development when a preservation society sets itself up as the defender against "parking, traffic and noise issues" rather than, you know, preservation.

Captain Zissou

September 18, 2012, 10:17:43 AM
Including outside seating in the count is a ridiculous and really just a slimy move from RAP.  You know they have had this in their back pocket for a while, but they were waiting until Valentino made concessions before they added this one into the mix.  RAP is also only speculating as to how many people will be able to sit outside, but in actuality they have no idea what they are talking about.

My other favorite point that RAP made is in their 'design' recommendations.  They were the ones who suggested a 100' storefront on St Johns, and now they are opposed to their own proposal.  However, rather than actually improve the layout of the restaurant and its street interaction, they just want it to look like it's not what it is, which is a suburban design.  They're encouraging a faux-historic look instead of actual site planning and design.  Doesn't this speak volumes for the kind of organization that they have become?  They want to look the part, but the underlying substance is all fake.  They find ways to justify parking lots and demolitions, but the underlying issue is that they really know nothing about preservation beyond what types of windows should go in your house. 

The most historic and preservationist design has always been John's original design and it is the only one that addresses the larger issues of the neighborhood.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 10:23:29 AM
I like how they totally avoided mentioning they're encouraging Mellow to demolish a building to install a parking lot. It's a pretty sad development when a preservation society sets itself up as the defender against "parking, traffic and noise issues" rather than, you know, preservation.
This is not new for RAP several years ago RAP was OK with the"Riviera Parkway Apartments" being torn down. For the main apartments on the front drive into riviera are old all the way down to the river. But the not so great RAP said they had no real value for preservation. But the new builders were going to put in a couple of highrise condos and that was OK? RAP was really OK with this project because they wanted a better class of people to move to this area that has over the years come down Damn those working class people! :o

simms3

September 18, 2012, 10:30:17 AM
What I am envisioning is something akin to the faux stucco faux historic look Prado development across from St. Vincent's where there has really been a struggle to least the space up.

That was another project that had a denser and better looking design, but rather than being forced to the current structure it is, the market did its dirty work.  Here with MM we have the market working for the project, and the backing, but RAP is artificially killing the project into another faux stucco POS with parking in the back.

And I don't know how many business owners actually own the building they are in or if they are leased.  If I were a landlord on the strip, I would be NERVOUS and furious.  This should be obvious.  Landlords need good, paying tenants with well-backed guarantors.  RAP is chasing them away as we speak.

In SF there are extremely strict regulations on chains such as MM.  It is almost impossible to open something up with more than 5 or so locations, but it gets done because it is SF, a city where if there is a will there is a way.  This is Jacksonville...about as far from SF as it gets.  Jacksonville is frankly a city that should just take what it can get, and if you kill pockets of good (Avondale) like RAP is doing, then you're going to have a city that spirals further into decline.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 10:34:25 AM
Not being a Riverside resident but an advocate, from the outside looking in, what stands out to me is you have a split population base on what the community is and should strive to be.  It seems you have an older established community that would like to see things a certain way and a younger population base who's values are completely different. Taking pot shots at certain people won't resolve the core issue facing the community.  All that does is piss people off and make them more unwilling to compromise on the issues. 

Ultimately, this entire situation (and politics in general) boils down to the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  One side appears to be well organized and positioned to lobby for their position and the other side doesn't.  Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential.  However, if the population base that doesn't agree with the position of RAP and WLA wants more balance, than it will be up to it to organize, lobby and fight with the same passion of the other groups.  This theory isn't Riverside specific.  It really applies to the city in general.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 10:39:48 AM
Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).

LOL, are you afraid to take MARTA by yourself?  Why?  I've ridden it several times in the past.  It's never seemed threatening to me.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 10:45:21 AM
Not being a Riverside resident but an advocate, from the outside looking in, what stands out to me is you have a split population base on what the community is and should strive to be.  It seems you have an older established community that would like to see things a certain way and a younger population base who's values are completely different. Taking pot shots at certain people won't resolve the core issue facing the community.  All that does is piss people off and make them more unwilling to compromise on the issues. 

Ultimately, this entire situation (and politics in general) boils down to the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  One side appears to be well organized and positioned to lobby for their position and the other side doesn't.  Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential.  However, if the population base that doesn't agree with the position of RAP and WLA wants more balance, than it will be up to it to organize, lobby and fight with the same passion of the other groups.  This theory isn't Riverside specific.  It really applies to the city in general.
"Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential." This really isn't true a lot of the older population that will die off will be replaced by their offspring with the same values and attitudes.

KEGreene1

September 18, 2012, 10:52:12 AM
Lakelander is correct.  If you want to fight these groups, you need to show up and voice your opinion.  IMHO - this is a few business owners creating rules (which they themselves do not have to follow) to protect their own business interests, not the interests of the community at large, and hiding behind a name like We Love Avondale. 

PeeJayEss

September 18, 2012, 10:54:45 AM
"Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential." This really isn't true a lot of the older population that will die off will be replaced by their offspring with the same values and attitudes.

Do you have the exact same values and attitudes as your parents? I don't.

To lake's point, old people just have so much more time to be organizing and squeaking. Young, employed people have much less time on their hands.

simms3

September 18, 2012, 10:55:45 AM
Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).

LOL, are you afraid to take MARTA by yourself?  Why?  I've ridden it several times in the past.  It's never seemed threatening to me.

Lake, like many train systems across the country, it's safest to be in a group at night, especially on certain routes.  Have you felt perfectly safe with your fancy luggage and suit on at 11-12 at night after arriving at Hartsfield?  Have you left friends at a bar in Decatur early for bed, but still 10-11 at night?  That's a pleasant ride in your fancy white collar/white boy clothes on an East-west line with a transfer at 5 Points Station, looking nice and ripe for the picking.  Come on...anyone with common sense knows to use common sense on the trains.  I find MARTA in general sketchier than some other systems...not as many "choice riders" like myself as the system wasn't built for us so much as for people either commuting in for work 9-5 or for serving the poorest parts of the city.

Also...I was beat up very badly on a platform once, at about midnight, when I was by myself with my bar clothes on waiting to take a train to meet people downtown just 4 stops down.  Broken nose, broken cheekbone, stitches for my eye.  There was no reason for the attack, but I was the only "young professional" down there amongst a bunch of thugs and tired blue collar workers not giving a shit and used to the scene (actually was in college at the time...the station was in Midtown, not the ghetto).  One guy was arrested later and I became another statistic buried by MARTA.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 11:00:31 AM
"Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential." This really isn't true a lot of the older population that will die off will be replaced by their offspring with the same values and attitudes.

Do you have the exact same values and attitudes as your parents? I don't.

To lake's point, old people just have so much more time to be organizing and squeaking. Young, employed people have much less time on their hands.
The core values of my Parents will always be with me. And the argument that since younger people are working is poppycock!

simms3

September 18, 2012, 11:01:09 AM
Not being a Riverside resident but an advocate, from the outside looking in, what stands out to me is you have a split population base on what the community is and should strive to be.  It seems you have an older established community that would like to see things a certain way and a younger population base who's values are completely different. Taking pot shots at certain people won't resolve the core issue facing the community.  All that does is piss people off and make them more unwilling to compromise on the issues. 

Ultimately, this entire situation (and politics in general) boils down to the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  One side appears to be well organized and positioned to lobby for their position and the other side doesn't.  Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential.  However, if the population base that doesn't agree with the position of RAP and WLA wants more balance, than it will be up to it to organize, lobby and fight with the same passion of the other groups.  This theory isn't Riverside specific.  It really applies to the city in general.
"Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential." This really isn't true a lot of the older population that will die off will be replaced by their offspring with the same values and attitudes.

I'd agree largely.  A lot of the young folks who were tired of the Jacksonville scene left for other places, though many return when they want to start families, etc and their parents' tired old values then show up for the first time in their offspring.  Jacksonville needs to shake its reputation as THE place to marry and have kids and slow down; it snuffs out the young and adventurous who aren't looking for peace and quiet and conservative values their wholes lives, though I'd agree with you that many kids in Jacksonville grow up WITH their parents' values, never straying.  I would be a totally different person if I had stayed in Jax...kids and their parents in that area share pretty much all the same opinions and values.  Eeek

JeffreyS

September 18, 2012, 11:02:13 AM
Please this is just that a few businesses do not want competition and a group pretending to be a preservation group but wanting to be an Oakleaf HOA. Dreams of Julington sweetening their nights. Oh you lovely parking lots and express lanes.

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 11:10:11 AM
Please this is just that a few businesses do not want competition and a group pretending to be a preservation group but wanting to be an Oakleaf HOA. Dreams of Julington sweetening their nights. Oh you lovely parking lots and express lanes.

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.
"debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care" and who made you God?

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 11:11:01 AM
Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).

LOL, are you afraid to take MARTA by yourself?  Why?  I've ridden it several times in the past.  It's never seemed threatening to me.

Lake, like many train systems across the country, it's safest to be in a group at night, especially on certain routes.  Have you felt perfectly safe with your fancy luggage and suit on at 11-12 at night after arriving at Hartsfield?  Have you left friends at a bar in Decatur early for bed, but still 10-11 at night?  That's a pleasant ride in your fancy white collar/white boy clothes on an East-west line with a transfer at 5 Points Station, looking nice and ripe for the picking.  Come on...anyone with common sense knows to use common sense on the trains.  I find MARTA in general sketchier than some other systems...not as many "choice riders" like myself as the system wasn't built for us so much as for people either commuting in for work 9-5 or for serving the poorest parts of the city.

Also...I was beat up very badly on a platform once, at about midnight, when I was by myself with my bar clothes on waiting to take a train to meet people downtown just 4 stops down.  Broken nose, broken cheekbone, stitches for my eye.  There was no reason for the attack, but I was the only "young professional" down there amongst a bunch of thugs and tired blue collar workers not giving a shit and used to the scene (actually was in college at the time...the station was in Midtown, not the ghetto).  One guy was arrested later and I became another statistic buried by MARTA.

I was talking about the using the train in general (no specific time period).  I grew up in the hood and I'm street savvy.  Many of the situations you describe above  would make you a target for crime in several situations at night, not just public transit.  Nevertheless, unless you're totally looking out of place in a neighborhood you're not familiar with, you should be perfectly fine on MARTA and most of the country's public transportation systems.

Captain Zissou

September 18, 2012, 11:13:35 AM
Please this is just that a few businesses do not want competition and a group pretending to be a preservation group but wanting to be an Oakleaf HOA. Dreams of Julington sweetening their nights. Oh you lovely parking lots and express lanes.

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.
"debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care" and who made you God?

You don't need to be God to know that WLA has no idea what they are talking about and that most of their points are lies.  You just have to fact check their flyers for about 5 minutes.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 11:16:35 AM
"Long term, the younger population base will win out as the older population base dies out and becomes less politically influential." This really isn't true a lot of the older population that will die off will be replaced by their offspring with the same values and attitudes.

Do you have the exact same values and attitudes as your parents? I don't.

To lake's point, old people just have so much more time to be organizing and squeaking. Young, employed people have much less time on their hands.
The core values of my Parents will always be with me.

My parent's core values will always be with me but I'm completely opposite in terms of urban environment.  My parents prefer small town suburban living.  I don't and I'm 35 with two kids, ages 10 and 8.  I seriously don't believe I will ever value suburban over urban living.

Quote
And the argument that since younger people are working is poppycock!

Definitely agree here.  If you don't like the way things are being done in your community, you have to engage yourself into the process to make change or move to someplace that already has the environment you desire.  Age doesn't matter.

simms3

September 18, 2012, 11:19:51 AM
Within my first year of Atlanta my pervious Ortega/Avondale "ways" led me to 2 DUIs, my car being towed or booted with $150-300 fine somewhere between 8-12 times, parking tickets on campus and at meters, etc.  Now I haven't been behind the wheel with so much as one drink in about 3 years (cabs, DD, WALK a lot, even the train if I'm with group).

LOL, are you afraid to take MARTA by yourself?  Why?  I've ridden it several times in the past.  It's never seemed threatening to me.

Lake, like many train systems across the country, it's safest to be in a group at night, especially on certain routes.  Have you felt perfectly safe with your fancy luggage and suit on at 11-12 at night after arriving at Hartsfield?  Have you left friends at a bar in Decatur early for bed, but still 10-11 at night?  That's a pleasant ride in your fancy white collar/white boy clothes on an East-west line with a transfer at 5 Points Station, looking nice and ripe for the picking.  Come on...anyone with common sense knows to use common sense on the trains.  I find MARTA in general sketchier than some other systems...not as many "choice riders" like myself as the system wasn't built for us so much as for people either commuting in for work 9-5 or for serving the poorest parts of the city.

Also...I was beat up very badly on a platform once, at about midnight, when I was by myself with my bar clothes on waiting to take a train to meet people downtown just 4 stops down.  Broken nose, broken cheekbone, stitches for my eye.  There was no reason for the attack, but I was the only "young professional" down there amongst a bunch of thugs and tired blue collar workers not giving a shit and used to the scene (actually was in college at the time...the station was in Midtown, not the ghetto).  One guy was arrested later and I became another statistic buried by MARTA.

I was talking about the using the train in general (no specific time period).  I grew up in the hood and I'm street savvy.  Many of the situations you describe above  would make you a target for crime in several situations at night, not just public transit.  Nevertheless, unless you're totally looking out of place in a neighborhood you're not familiar with, you should be perfectly fine on MARTA and most of the country's public transportation systems.

we're so off topic but whatev...I grew up "privileged" and am blonde/blue eyed, totally innocent looking no matter how hard I try to dress down or appear however down with the 99% (which I AM a part of living humbly in my studio LoL).  I'm a target, yes, so I am very careful in unfamiliar territory, on public transit usually wherever at night, etc.  I have developed good street smarts, but it took me a few years living on my own outside of Ortega/Jacksonville and it wasn't given to me naturally.  My street smarts keep me off most trains by myself late at night unless I'm not looking the easy target I normally am...cabs were invented for a reason :) And are considered a means of transit for many people in many cities, both for leaving bars and getting to work.

Captain Zissou

September 18, 2012, 11:22:37 AM
Quote
And the argument that since younger people are working is poppycock!

Definitely agree here.  If you don't like the way things are being done in your community, you have to engage yourself into the process to make change or move to someplace that already has the environment you desire.  Age doesn't matter.


Well, one of the ways for young people to get involved is RAP180, but I don't see that helping here..... Whatever happened to HelpSaveAvondale....?  Was that serious or just a logo and a gmail address?  Those two things do not constitute an activist group.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 11:23:16 AM
Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.

All I'm saying is simply complaining online or writing a few letters to city hall won't be effective to win your position if your opposition is doing more lobbying at actual meetings and behind closed doors.  Getting your way is always best when you can make your position seem more larger and influential than it may actually be.  If you want to be as impactful as RAP and WLA in this particular situation just copy the process they are taking while promoting your position.

JeffreyS

September 18, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
Please this is just that a few businesses do not want competition and a group pretending to be a preservation group but wanting to be an Oakleaf HOA. Dreams of Julington sweetening their nights. Oh you lovely parking lots and express lanes.

Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.
"debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care" and who made you God?

No one made me God or even the boss. That is however my opinion on the debate. If want to think of me as God that is your right but I haven't the slightest as to who made the proclamation. 

KEGreene1

September 18, 2012, 11:50:04 AM
This is not a debate.  When one side uses misdirection (MARTA, Street Cars, calling a family PIZZA joint a Nightclub...) to "argue" a topic instead of using facts, it makes you wonder...Why?

IMO it is because the other side is just a few business owners scared of competition and wanting to protect their own business interests by hiding behind the "We Love Our Community" veil.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 11:52:50 AM
Sorry Lake I know you want us to play nice but you are debating a group who know they are wrong but do not care.

All I'm saying is simply complaining online or writing a few letters to city hall won't be effective to win your position if your opposition is doing more lobbying at actual meetings and behind closed doors.  Getting your way is always best when you can make your position seem more larger and influential than it may actually be.  If you want to be as impactful as RAP and WLA in this particular situation just copy the process they are taking while promoting your position.
The funny thing about meetings held in Jacksonville is must people feel it's someone Else's problem? I have been to meetings over the years for a new main branch library when 25 people or so showed up. And when the fdot talked about all the new roads that were built at I-95 and interstate 10 how many people showed up for that meeting I believe about 10 at the most? I really love it when a lot of these meetings are scheduled late mornings early afternoons or right at six pm.

JeffreyS

September 18, 2012, 11:56:18 AM
Exactly KE Green just say we want the place to ourselves and we want it to be more suburban just with old homes. At least then we could talk about the subject truthfully just with different objectives.

JeffreyS

September 18, 2012, 12:00:29 PM
On your people showing up you are dead "if I". The different civic meetings I have attended rarely have more than the principal parties.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
With equal vocal backing, lobbying and advocacy, its easy to change the political theme if you base your argument strictly off zoning facts and economic data while also effectively pointing out fallacies in the opposing argument. 

This was effectively done with the original JTA dedicated busway plan and with the car wash that opened in Springfield a few years back.  On the flip end, if you say nothing in the proper channels, the squeaky wheel simply gets the grease.  Everything is really as simple as this.  With that said, I'd expect RAP and WLA to get most of what they are pushing for because they are the only organized entities pushing for anything.

Pinky

September 18, 2012, 12:40:32 PM
Boy, The Brick is sure gonna lose money when they have to give up all of their outdoor tables, cut off their shitty jazz combos at midnight and keep their huge front doors closed..  Biscottis won't be the same without their outdoor tables either, you know, the ones that are plunked down on the public sidewalk like the Brick's?  And Bluefish won't really have any parking spots at all once they build 5' deep landscaping areas to shield their awful looking lot from street view.  Waiting in line at The Fox won't be the same without the coffee cart out on the sidewalk, which I think should go as well, since RAP is so concerned about the sidewalks being used for serving customers.  I guess Elevated Avondale is going to be closing up too, since it's clearly not a "restaurant", just a bar (or is it a "nightclub"??). 

When will construction begin on the walls, landscaping and lighting changes behind The Brick and Bluefish, and across the street behind Biscottis and The Fox; you know, the ones that are supposed to shield adjacent residences from the noise and unsightly appearance of the backs of restaurants? 

And regarding limiting hours of operation, I think that restaurants are just as much of a nuisance in the early mornings as they are late at night; let's set a reasonable policy that says nobody can operate before 10:00 AM.  That shouldn't hurt anyone's business right?  I mean, The Fox would still have from then until 2:30 or so to make their money.. 

I think these are all perfectly reasonable policies which, given that they originated from WLA and RAP, should be easily accepted by the Avondale merchants.  All in the name of progress and planning of course-  why I'll bet that they've already discussed it, given that I saw Susan Frasier the planning chick banging on The Brick's door last wednesday morning before they opened..  I mean, what else could she have been there to discuss with Steve?? 



simms3

September 18, 2012, 12:55:19 PM
^^^Nice.  It sounds like the GOB network isn't limited to downtown and citywide policies, but extends to the local chapters in Avondale, Riverside and other neighborhoods.  The situation going on now is but a microcosm of the overall GOB network that permeates the city and prevents anything "new" from happening outside of Gate Parkway.

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 01:12:57 PM
Boy, The Brick is sure gonna lose money when they have to give up all of their outdoor tables, cut off their shitty jazz combos at midnight and keep their huge front doors closed..  Biscottis won't be the same without their outdoor tables either, you know, the ones that are plunked down on the public sidewalk like the Brick's?  And Bluefish won't really have any parking spots at all once they build 5' deep landscaping areas to shield their awful looking lot from street view.  Waiting in line at The Fox won't be the same without the coffee cart out on the sidewalk, which I think should go as well, since RAP is so concerned about the sidewalks being used for serving customers.  I guess Elevated Avondale is going to be closing up too, since it's clearly not a "restaurant", just a bar (or is it a "nightclub"??). 

When will construction begin on the walls, landscaping and lighting changes behind The Brick and Bluefish, and across the street behind Biscottis and The Fox; you know, the ones that are supposed to shield adjacent residences from the noise and unsightly appearance of the backs of restaurants? 

And regarding limiting hours of operation, I think that restaurants are just as much of a nuisance in the early mornings as they are late at night; let's set a reasonable policy that says nobody can operate before 10:00 AM.  That shouldn't hurt anyone's business right?  I mean, The Fox would still have from then until 2:30 or so to make their money.. 

I think these are all perfectly reasonable policies which, given that they originated from WLA and RAP, should be easily accepted by the Avondale merchants.  All in the name of progress and planning of course-  why I'll bet that they've already discussed it, given that I saw Susan Frasier the planning chick banging on The Brick's door last wednesday morning before they opened..  I mean, what else could she have been there to discuss with Steve??

I would imagine that Susan Frasier was there for the secret, no members of the public allowed, meeting of the We Love Avondale LLC group.  Which are held in the morning at The Brick.

It really should be called the We Hate Competition in Avondale, (and are willing to use the city, public tax money, and enforcement agencies for our own benefit) LLC.

KEGreene1

September 18, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
Pinky is right! But let's just examine the section in RAP's response "Exception for Outside Sales and Service" my comments in BOLD

1. Condition that final seat count includes outdoor seating (inclusive of sidewalk seats).
Does this mean that RAP will be talking with Brick and Biscotti's?
2. No music or television sound played outside or in any covered patio area after 9 p.m.
So I am to assume that this means the Brick will be closing it's sliding doors at 9 pm so the music doesn't leak out?
3. Covered patio shall be enclosed with glass on rear (parking lot side) and side (Ingleside).
So will RAP be talking with Brick and Biscotti's to be removing their sidewalk seating?
4. Use must be a bona-fide restaurant that serves food at all times that alcohol is being served.
Again with this "Nightclub" nonsense.  It is a Pizza Joint!
5. Exception does not run with property – it applies to this business only. Future owners of the the property are rejoicing!  Please don't make me have to deal with the restrictions you are placing on Mellow Mushroom.

6. Any sliding doors must close at 12 p.m.Standard answer, are you going around a restricting outside dining at all the other establishments in Avondale?

So my question is Why are we listening to a group of business owners who are trying to protect their business behind the veil of "We Love our Community"?  A group using lies and scare tactics to influence the majority. 

Why are we not supporting a family friendly establishment, who has listened and complied with the demands of the RAP/WLA groups (while they continuously change their demands)?  An establishment which will clean up a run down property, provide a family restaurant where there isn't one, provide jobs and an increase in foot traffic for other establishments in the area. 

ben says

September 18, 2012, 01:31:39 PM
Where's Mtrain???? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?

acme54321

September 18, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
Does anyone know what was originally built on that corner?  Was a gas station always there?  If not what type of structure did the current Shell building replace??

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 01:48:38 PM
Where's Mtrain???? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?
Unlike most posting here he could be working? ;D

Bridges

September 18, 2012, 01:53:31 PM
Where's Mtrain???? Isn't he the go-to voice for the pro-Brick/Blue Fish and anti-MM lobby?

He's probably in a private meeting with Jim Love.  You're welcome to join if you own a successful business and have some political pull.  They entertain all offers as long as they like your business. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15403.msg296973.html#msg296973

Pinky

September 18, 2012, 02:04:14 PM
Does anyone know what was originally built on that corner?  Was a gas station always there?  If not what type of structure did the current Shell building replace??

Early maps of the area show a commercial building similar in size and layout to the adjacent Emily Benham/'town building.  It was replaced by a gas station in 1951.  I'm not sure what the original gas station looked like, it was demolished to make way for the current (soon the be demolished) gas station building which was built in 1964.

(This from the "Mellow Mushroom FAQ's" page on RAP's website at
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 -  If you haven't seen it, be sure to check it out.  It's a point by point refutation of the positions most frequently cited by the Pro-MM folks, and a really telling indicator of RAP's clear bias and agenda in this situation.)

CityLife

September 18, 2012, 02:21:00 PM
I have happily and will remain happily uninvolved in the MM issue...That said, God Save Jacksonville the day that someone actually proposes an intense use in the Historic District. You know, like something you would see in a big boy city.

I haven't been able to keep up with the whole MM issue, but can someone fill me in. Are the majority of complainants (outside of the businesses and RAP) residents of the wealthy area east of St. Johns Ave.? Are they the ones pushing RAP to fight this?

Captain Zissou

September 18, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
FROM THE RAP WEBSITE
Quote
Preservation Commission, members of the Commission, who are professionals in the field of architecture, construction and planning, gave the project’s design team specific instructions that were more detailed than the City staff report, including enclosing the corner space because open corners on buildings are not a historic development pattern within the St. Johns Avenue commercial corridor.

So because nobody currently has a patio on the corner, MM can't have one? This doesn't make sense to me.  Did the brick try and get open air seating or something?

Quote
What happened to the original plan to save a historic building? Isn’t RAP supposed to preserve buildings?The former gas station building is not a contributing historic structure to our district.
How about we demolish some non-contributing residents from this approval process?  I've got a dozen or so in mind.

Quote
RAP is the neighborhood preservation and community quality of life organization for Riverside and Avondale
Since when have they been known as RAPQOLO?  They have no jurisdiction over quality of life.  This is a gross mismanagement of power and I hope people are taking notice.

JFman00

September 18, 2012, 03:13:45 PM
So... RAP is an HOA?

It's sad/amusing to me that organizations like this not only pick and choose what they call "historic", they mock history by requiring that new things look old. Instead of truly preserving history while acknowledging that change happens, RAP (and other overzealous organizations like it across the country) seek to turn neighborhoods into a Disney Fantasyland. The more I hear about RAP and read their positions, the more I'm reminded of JCP or Eagle Harbor and the more I'm turned off by the idea of living inside their jurisdiction.

When other cities freeze entire neighborhoods in time (New Orleans French Quarter, Savannah, Charleston, Georgetown in DC) they're often seeking to increase tourism and boost economic activity (things RAP claims to like, as long as it somehow doesn't involve more people or more cars). Seems like RAP loves the idea instead of turning the neighborhood into a exclusive, gated, cookie cutter suburb instead.

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 03:27:09 PM
So... RAP is an HOA?

It thinks of itself as one.

Of course it isnt.

Intuition Ale Works

September 18, 2012, 03:38:57 PM

Here is an example of the issue I have with the whole process.

Lisa Sheppard is a RAP board member and presented the Mellow Mushroom Report at HPC.

Jennifer Mansfield, another RAP board member, sits on the commission.

She recused herself from the hearing so that she could speak in opposition to the Mellow Mushrooms application.

How can any small business in this neighborhood get a fair shake?

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 03:49:09 PM

Here is an example of the issue I have with the whole process.

Lisa Sheppard is a RAP board member and presented the Mellow Mushroom Report at HPC.

Jennifer Mansfield, another RAP board member, sits on the commission.

She recused herself from the hearing so that she could speak in opposition to the Mellow Mushrooms application.

How can any small business in this neighborhood get a fair shake?

they cant.

Things need changed.  The first of which should be a ban from participating in both the HPC, the Code Enforcement Board and one of the Historic Neighborhood HOAs at the same time.

There needs to be a strong merchants group in the area.  Theres been a lot of talk about one forming.

And there probably needs to be another group that represents residents including renters and lease residents.

kln1323

September 18, 2012, 04:05:16 PM
has anyone told RAP to fuck off yet
    RAP is
(c)RAP


Bumper stickers coming soon....who wants one?

cityimrov

September 18, 2012, 04:17:14 PM
So, how much longer until MM brings out the big lawyers to allow themselves to build this place?  Sort of like how Donald Trump always brings out his big lawyers to let him to build whenever and whatever he wants. 

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 04:38:39 PM
has anyone told RAP to fuck off yet
    RAP is
(c)RAP


Bumper stickers coming soon....who wants one?
(C)RAP washes off RAP never will.

Pinky

September 18, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
I have happily and will remain happily uninvolved in the MM issue...That said, God Save Jacksonville the day that someone actually proposes an intense use in the Historic District. You know, like something you would see in a big boy city.

I haven't been able to keep up with the whole MM issue, but can someone fill me in. Are the majority of complainants (outside of the businesses and RAP) residents of the wealthy area east of St. Johns Ave.? Are they the ones pushing RAP to fight this?

Readers Digest Version:  Local boy John Valentino, who grew up in Avondale, purchases derelict gas station and leases (I think, maybe bought?  Not sure) the adjacent building which was formerly 'town (a restaurant) and Emily Benhams (shoe store) with intention of opening another of his wildly successful and remarkably cool locally-owned Mellow Mushroom Pizza Bakers franchises.  (He owns the other Jacksonville locations; Southside by Tinseltown, the one at the Beaches and the one in Fleming Island.)   

Original plan is to use 'town/Benham space for the restaurant section, and re-use gas station for bar area.  It would have been extremely cool, and would have kicked the shit out of the other restaurants in Avondale.  Seeing this, said restaurants banded together with a few NIMBY types and local attorneys to form We Love Avondale LLC, ostensibly to shield themselves individually from potential Business Interference litigation, and begin an outrageous campaign of bullshit, innuendo and outright fabrication, all in an effort to prevent a strong competitor from opening in their hood.  "Preservation-minded" opposition pushes him to, among other preposterous things, demolish sixty year old Gas Station building in favor of parking, which he agrees to.  (Smart money says this was a bit of Judo Commerce; had he just come out looking to rebuild on the gas station site the Oppositional NIMBYS would have forced him to reuse the building; now he gets to build a nice new building..)

Anyway, Local Boy John Valentino engages RAP and WLA in a seemingly good natured effort to cooperate and accommodate their requests, which quickly shows itself to be nothing more than a Dog And Pony Show, intended to bleed the guy into giving up.  That process continues, and John continues to jump through ever-moving hoops and make concession after concession.  Some folks think he's a fool for playing the game, while others think he's a savvy businessman who is slowly and patiently building a record in preparation for a shitstorm of litigation.  I know John, and frankly I can't really get a read on the cat; he's a really nice, calm dude on one hand, but a million-plus dollars is a hell of a lot of money, and eventually if you push any man far enough he will come out swinging. 

That's pretty much the thing in a nutshell.  It's some major bullshit. 

strider

September 18, 2012, 04:54:06 PM
Most of the so called preservationists really aren't.  They put use above saving anything.  True in Springfield, Riverside and, well, all over actually, and it is not limited to the organizations but even the very commissions and city departments created to govern that preservation.  RAP should very seldom worry about use, their concern should end at the appearance of the building, IE: does it meet the historic guidelines?  The city has people who do and can worry about zoning and whether a use meets the criteria of the current zoning codes.  The public can and should be able speak up at public comment meetings and send those e-mails and letters to their respective council person.  Rap should not be speaking about this use as an organization.  By doing so, they are doing a disservice to a large number of people who support them.  They were put into place and supported for preservation reasons, not usage. 

Of course, this is the real world where Joe Public's opinion means very little unless he can take the time and afford the effort to yell louder and more often than everyone else.  And this is Jacksonville where zoning overly's are written, passed and interpreted to turn historic areas into suburban like communities rather than embrace what they were once when populated by every single economic class and thereby successful and what they could be once again if given the chance.

What was originally presented was by far the superior idea.  And who should get to decide whether a 60's gas station, especially when re-purposed into a much more friendlier use, is not exactly what fits into a historic neighborhood?  That 3, yes 3 (19 to 22), less parking spots were not worth the result? 

It is our fault in the end.  We fail to take the time or make the effort to change things, or we can't afford to. So things stay the same, people get away with what they do and we post here on a forum and complain about it.

mtraininjax

September 18, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
Got lots to do before another meeting, but this is a good topic and lots of good banter. Keep it up!

Jack

KEGreene1

September 18, 2012, 04:56:16 PM
(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds). 

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 05:01:42 PM
(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.

+1,000

Pinky

September 18, 2012, 05:08:02 PM
(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds).

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the usefulness of discussing this here; this thread has had almost 900 views *in one day*.  There are a hell of a lot more people reading these threads than posting, and frankly, RAP's "MM FAQ's" page reads like a direct response to the points that have been discussed here on MetroJax.  While I agree that these conversations also need to take place in other venues, I think that this forum occupies a very unique space in the public dialog in Jacksonville and is uniquely positioned to reach and educate people to then go forward and have those conversations.

thelakelander

September 18, 2012, 05:12:23 PM
The key in a land use debate is to take the information gained in a place like this and get it in front of the people voting to approve or deny, along with a decent amount of support behind your position.  That makes it much harder for a politico to vote a particular way if there is considerable opposition to that viewpoint.

KEGreene1

September 18, 2012, 05:22:53 PM
That is my point.  Just because you read about it and you make/change your opinion about it, doesn't mean you have done anything about it.  You have 900 views on this thread today, but how many of them will pick up the phone or write an email or show up at a meeting to voice their opinion (I've written numerous emails; as all the meetings seem to be scheduled while I'm working elsewhere).  This isn't something you go to the polls and vote on anonymously, this is an issue that if you feel one way or the other (and judging by 900+ views quite a few of you have an opinion) you need to voice that opinion with your City Councilman or go to one of the two upcoming meetings that are scheduled. 

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 05:36:44 PM
(c)RAP: You can call them all the names you want, but it will not change anything.  The only way to create change is speak intelligently, using examples of why what they are doing is wrong and/or a conflict of interest and do it in the presence of the right people.  The same reason I think it is important to continually call out the false statements in both We Love Avondale, LLC propaganda and RAP's website.  Doing it on here only informs a select few (who probably have already made up their minds).
I've been to meetings in the past for several years I'm done I will voice my opinion here on metrojacksonville because it's fun.  :D

acme54321

September 18, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
So, how much longer until MM brings out the big lawyers to allow themselves to build this place?  Sort of like how Donald Trump always brings out his big lawyers to let him to build whenever and whatever he wants.

I wish they would have done it weeks ago!

Non-RedNeck Westsider

September 18, 2012, 05:58:49 PM
Duplicate post for a duplicate thread:

I'm really hoping the suits at Hooter's are paying attention - Monte's would make an awesome Hooter's.

Not that I even like the place, but I'd like to see WLA fight that one.

If_I_Loved_you

September 18, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
I'm looking forward to the next Avondale Problem "West Inn Cantina" this would make a great Hooter's type restaurant don't you think?

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 06:28:20 PM
That is my point.  Just because you read about it and you make/change your opinion about it, doesn't mean you have done anything about it.  You have 900 views on this thread today, but how many of them will pick up the phone or write an email or show up at a meeting to voice their opinion (I've written numerous emails; as all the meetings seem to be scheduled while I'm working elsewhere).  This isn't something you go to the polls and vote on anonymously, this is an issue that if you feel one way or the other (and judging by 900+ views quite a few of you have an opinion) you need to voice that opinion with your City Councilman or go to one of the two upcoming meetings that are scheduled.

The actual numbers of people reading the comments are pretty wildly understated as most people view the forum through 'recent comments' which doesnt click as a hit on the forum----since the comments are all just listed on the feed. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?action=recent

And yes, there are a number of people who write emails and show up to the meetings that a person from the public can actually show up to----but the majority of the activity is happening without the benefit of a public meeting, and the people writing the legislation and handing it off to the council are remaining secret.

This is the kind of stuff that poisons the well, and I think both the LLC and the HOA are stirring up a hornets nest that they cannot afford to liticate.

stephendare

September 18, 2012, 06:34:13 PM
As I thought, there are several thousand views from facebook alone.  http://www.facebook.com/MetroJacksonville

Intuition Ale Works

September 19, 2012, 09:07:14 AM
Tonight is the HPC meeting at the Ed Ball building. It is at 6pm and I hope the commission approves the design so Mellow Mushroom can maybe break ground by the end of the year.

All the supporters of the Avondale Mellow Mushroom project need to show up and speak. Posting on a forum will not beat the NIMBY's and anti-business zealots in the R/A. They are showing up in force to this meeting and next weeks Planning commission also.

They do not want a Mellow Mushroom in Avondale. Plain and simple.

Captain Zissou

September 19, 2012, 09:17:50 AM
Thanks for fighting the good fight, Ben.  I can't make it tonight, but I will be there next week.

If_I_Loved_you

September 19, 2012, 10:33:22 AM
Tonight is the HPC meeting at the Ed Ball building. It is at 6pm and I hope the commission approves the design so Mellow Mushroom can maybe break ground by the end of the year.

All the supporters of the Avondale Mellow Mushroom project need to show up and speak. Posting on a forum will not beat the NIMBY's and anti-business zealots in the R/A. They are showing up in force to this meeting and next weeks Planning commission also.

They do not want a Mellow Mushroom in Avondale. Plain and simple.
I can't go but for the ones that go thank you and good luck.

JaxHistory

September 19, 2012, 11:21:57 AM
Disband RAP immediately if not sooner.

stephendare

September 19, 2012, 11:55:26 AM
Disband RAP immediately if not sooner.

RAP doesnt need disbanded, it just needs restored to its proper function and context.

All of the little power jobs involved with RAP should be faced with obtaining power the legitimate way.

By running for public office and being answerable to the voters.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

September 19, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
This is the HPC meeting, though, so what are the main topics going to be? 

I didn't think this is the meeting that will deal with the MM specific rules that WLA & RAP are trying to apply, ie:  no amplified music or TVs past 9:00pm.  -  Those are the issues that irk me the most, but I thought that they won't be discussed until the 27th.

John P

September 19, 2012, 12:21:50 PM
In the meantime eat at Al's, pizza italian, carmines, peles, 5 star, moon river, chicago pizza. How will we do without?

Non-RedNeck Westsider

September 19, 2012, 12:24:20 PM
In the meantime eat at Al's, pizza italian, carmines, peles, 5 star, moon river, chicago pizza. How will we do without?

You're missing Pizza Hut, The Loop and Hungry Howies.  Oh yeah, you also seem to be missing the point.   ::)

simms3

September 19, 2012, 02:45:07 PM
From an email I received today.

Quote
4 MAJOR IMPACTS
OF NEW ZONING
________________________________________
 
Until last month, Philadelphia was a 21st-century city governed by a zoning code dating back to the 1930s. (There were major revisions in the '60s, but if you remember them, you weren't there.) It was a straightjacket. Now years of effort and argument have given the city a spanking-new code. Philadelphia deputy mayor for economic development Alan Greenberger told Bisnow what the new code will mean for Philly CRE.

1) SIMPLIFICATION
The new zoning code isn't as restrictively specific as the old one. For example, the old code specified the kinds of retail allowed in a particular place, meaning that when a new kind of retailer—like personal computers—wanted to open shop, it would have to go to the zoning board. (You were allowed to open an Apple Store, but only if you sold Granny Smith and Jonagolds.) All together, 410 use categories have been streamlined to 99.

2) CIVIC DESIGN REVIEW
Large projects—perhaps two dozen or so each year as defined by the new code—will undergo a new process called the Civic Design Review. Those are projects that need to be reviewed by a committee of the planning commission but also require community input. The new process will have deadlines for both the developers and community groups, so it doesn't drag out.
 
3) THE IMPORTANCE OF TRANSIT ORIENTED DEVELOPMENT
The new code will promote higher densities around transit, especially in the three major transit nodes downtown, though other areas might be added, Alan says. This acknowledges the importance of walkable neighborhoods in promoting business and real estate growth in Philadelphia’s urban core.

4) REMAPPING UNDER WAY
The new zoning code isn't a remapping of the city, according to Alan. That's a separate process that's already started, in which the city has been divided into 18 planning districts. These will determine which land users are obsolete and make recommendations for zoning changes.

riverside planner

September 19, 2012, 04:39:38 PM
This is the HPC meeting, though, so what are the main topics going to be? 

I didn't think this is the meeting that will deal with the MM specific rules that WLA & RAP are trying to apply, ie:  no amplified music or TVs past 9:00pm.  -  Those are the issues that irk me the most, but I thought that they won't be discussed until the 27th.

The topics at JHPC will be the physical elements of the building.  The zoning-related issues will be handled at the Planning Commission on the 27th.

John P

September 19, 2012, 05:28:03 PM
In the meantime eat at Al's, pizza italian, carmines, peles, 5 star, moon river, chicago pizza. How will we do without?

You're missing Pizza Hut, The Loop and Hungry Howies.  Oh yeah, you also seem to be missing the point.   ::)

If mellow mushroom did not build there something else would. That is what WLA thinks at least and they hope it would be smaller. Wait a year and they could move into Brooklyn.

thelakelander

September 19, 2012, 05:31:33 PM
Didn't Mellow already purchase the property?  I really don't see WLA being able to stop them from opening there.  They have a legal right to as long as what they are proposing meets the city's requirements and zoning regulations. 

Cheshire Cat

September 19, 2012, 06:18:59 PM
That is my point.  Just because you read about it and you make/change your opinion about it, doesn't mean you have done anything about it.  You have 900 views on this thread today, but how many of them will pick up the phone or write an email or show up at a meeting to voice their opinion (I've written numerous emails; as all the meetings seem to be scheduled while I'm working elsewhere).  This isn't something you go to the polls and vote on anonymously, this is an issue that if you feel one way or the other (and judging by 900+ views quite a few of you have an opinion) you need to voice that opinion with your City Councilman or go to one of the two upcoming meetings that are scheduled.

The actual numbers of people reading the comments are pretty wildly understated as most people view the forum through 'recent comments' which doesnt click as a hit on the forum----since the comments are all just listed on the feed. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?action=recent

As I thought, there are several thousand views from facebook alone.  http://www.facebook.com/MetroJacksonville

Stephen,  Glad you posted this info.  I had been wondering what the readership here might be.  I have another question I am hoping you can answer.  Like many forums Metro Jacksonville has some talented and outspoken posters who comment quite regularly on content and most of them seem to be male.  What is your guess as to the number of female members as opposed to male? 

For instance, when I made this post, these were the forum members online.  Wacca Pilatka, JeffreyS, thelakelander, strider, Ralph W, Pottsburg, ChriswUfGator, MissMinda, TheCat, bobsim, duvaldude08, If_I_Loved_you, Pinky, alta, funwithteeth, cityimrov, Jax_Spartan, acme54321, Tacachale, JasonBrantley, Rynjny, ben says, stephendare, Fallen Buckeye, Brian Siebenschuh, Keith-N-Jax, Ocklawaha, reednavy, duvalbill, comncense, CityLife, chipwich, Intuition Ale Works, Jimmy, mtraininjax, JHAT76, Overstreet, Adam W, Mathew1056
Most Online Today: 436. Most Online Ever: 1277 (February 21, 2012, 06:13:35 PM)

Thanks,

Diane Melendez

JHAT76

September 19, 2012, 07:20:32 PM
That is my point.  Just because you read about it and you make/change your opinion about it, doesn't mean you have done anything about it.  You have 900 views on this thread today, but how many of them will pick up the phone or write an email or show up at a meeting to voice their opinion (I've written numerous emails; as all the meetings seem to be scheduled while I'm working elsewhere).  This isn't something you go to the polls and vote on anonymously, this is an issue that if you feel one way or the other (and judging by 900+ views quite a few of you have an opinion) you need to voice that opinion with your City Councilman or go to one of the two upcoming meetings that are scheduled.

The actual numbers of people reading the comments are pretty wildly understated as most people view the forum through 'recent comments' which doesnt click as a hit on the forum----since the comments are all just listed on the feed. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?action=recent

As I thought, there are several thousand views from facebook alone.  http://www.facebook.com/MetroJacksonville

Stephen,  Glad you posted this info.  I had been wondering what the readership here might be.  I have another question I am hoping you can answer.  Like many forums Metro Jacksonville has some talented and outspoken posters who comment quite regularly on content and most of them seem to be male.  What is your guess as to the number of female members as opposed to male? 

For instance, when I made this post, these were the forum members online.  Wacca Pilatka, JeffreyS, thelakelander, strider, Ralph W, Pottsburg, ChriswUfGator, MissMinda, TheCat, bobsim, duvaldude08, If_I_Loved_you, Pinky, alta, funwithteeth, cityimrov, Jax_Spartan, acme54321, Tacachale, JasonBrantley, Rynjny, ben says, stephendare, Fallen Buckeye, Brian Siebenschuh, Keith-N-Jax, Ocklawaha, reednavy, duvalbill, comncense, CityLife, chipwich, Intuition Ale Works, Jimmy, mtraininjax, JHAT76, Overstreet, Adam W, Mathew1056
Most Online Today: 436. Most Online Ever: 1277 (February 21, 2012, 06:13:35 PM)

Thanks,

Diane Melendez

YES!! made that list of being online.  For the record I go through the recent comments door 99% of the time.  I check the site daily and at times when at work I might look at it 12 - 25 times per day.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

September 19, 2012, 07:25:05 PM
In the meantime eat at Al's, pizza italian, carmines, peles, 5 star, moon river, chicago pizza. How will we do without?

You're missing Pizza Hut, The Loop and Hungry Howies.  Oh yeah, you also seem to be missing the point.   ::)

If mellow mushroom did not build there something else would. That is what WLA thinks at least and they hope it would be smaller. Wait a year and they could move into Brooklyn.

I understand where you're coming from, but I still think you're missing the point.  It's not about pizza.  It's about a few business owners in the proximity getting together to decide what should go there, because they feel their livelyhoods are threatened. 

I believe that they would oppose any place that wanted to open in that space.  Why wasn't there a problem with 'town?  No, because she was sort of a family connection.  What if a 'Fusion Italian Bistro / Raw Bar with a full liquor license that already had 3 very successful stores elsewherewere' were to try and open up?  I think we'd see the same sort of petulant, child-like feet stomping.

stephendare

September 19, 2012, 07:47:26 PM
The numbers are a little opaque to people looking at the list at the bottom of the forums.

Its a very limited snapshot of the people on the forums.

It drops anyone from being listed who has been on the forums for more than one hour and 1 second.  So often times, we will have more than a few thousand online, but the bottom will count only the previous hour of movement.

The site attracts close to a half million unique vistors each month, the majority of which are in north florida, and we keep unrelentingly growing.  Our facebook page alone has more than 6k friends, which thankfully is also growing. Interestingly it has more people than when we all started back in the days of metjax, Diane.

This doesnt count the metrojacksonville content that is placed with our media partners, like news4jax, which is beginning to generate its own conversations on site

From our internal numbers, we are almost exactly split down the middle between men and women, and there are a large number of female posters on both the main site as well as on the online forums.

Posters like AVS, Springfield Girl, FayefortheCure, SheClown, Grimms, Hooplady, If I loved you, and many others comprise a huge chunk of our postings, and from the staff side, I think the majority of our writers and interns are women.  MelMel, Sara, Ashley Lauren, TamaraB, and Lorraine Cover are all female writers. Of course, ubiquitous posters like myself, Ock and Lake are men, but while our volume of posting is high, our physical number is still only 3. ;)

Pinky

September 19, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
With only a few minor tweaks, the Historic Commission just unanimously approved the Mellow site plan.

Suck it WLA.

MissMinda

September 19, 2012, 08:07:45 PM
I don't post very often, but I've picked a few favorite folders and have worked my way through reading all the threads in them. :) As I finish them, I pick more to read. I truly enjoy the site.

Cheshire Cat

September 19, 2012, 08:44:29 PM
Thanks much Stephen.  I think the last line of your response gave me what I was looking for.   ;)  The site has remained true to it's core purpose and most of the stories and forum postings reflect that.  The articles you guys post are well done and appreciated by your readers I am sure.  Would I be correct if I guessed you core readership is young professional men?  I tell you the reason I am asking and maybe what I am thinking is outside of the scope of how you guys view the site and the forum.  I believe you all should think about adding at least a fourth person to your core contributors. I would suggest a woman (not suggesting myself) who is well versed in the many topics facing our city, perhaps politics and other issues.  I think that would extend your forums reach and grow the discussion.  Your thoughts?




Diane Melendez

stephendare

September 19, 2012, 09:02:43 PM
Thanks for your comments Diane.

In answer to your question, our core readership skews slightly to women. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/advertise

The site is pretty much self assembling.  We are open to anyone who desires to post or write, and we have been for a while.

The 'board' has a public meeting every week, on tuesday nights at Pizza Palace in San Marco starting at 6/6:30 and going til whenever.

As you know, doing metrojacksonville has been a labor of love for the past six, going on seven years, Lake, Ock, Lunican, the Cat and myself volunteer 20 - 50 hours a week to the site and to our various projects and campaigns.

Its really just about who is willing to put in the time and work with us.

Weve been blessed with the high quality of expertise and writing that has come from the women of metrojacksonville.  Miss Fixit, Debbie Thompson, Springfield Chicken, Sheclown, FayefortheCure, and so many many others.

Anyone who wants to work as much as Lake, and the rest of us do is certainly welcome aboard. But it certainly is a lot to ask of anyone.

Someday soon, a credentialled workaholic volunteer minded woman will make the multi year committment that the 'core' members have made.

Cheshire Cat

September 19, 2012, 09:23:29 PM
Thanks Stephen.  I was actually surprised to see how close the numbers for men and women are and would never had guessed the slight bump on the side of the women.  I do remember in the beginning days of Metjax there were plenty of thirty something young men.  lol

I can say in all honesty that I well know the cost in physical time and emotional equity one must give to run a forum and be an active participant in their city and country.  Hours researching, hours spent at city hall, hours at the library and endless time fact checking.  I have paid it personally for many years as you, Ock and Ennis know. Many of those days were walked together. ;)

I have hesitated to open up certain subjects here because I did not want to take discussion away from the topics you guys have always been most verbal about, i.e. development, downtown, transportation, restaurants and the like.  But if you guys are open to some other topics than I have some I will be sharing soon. :)





Diane Melendez




Intuition Ale Works

September 25, 2012, 07:53:06 AM

FYI...Merchants in the Shoppes of Avondale are being intimidated into remaining silent about the proposed Mellow Mushroom.

They are being threatened with boycotts if they come out in support of the project.

Small town politics at it's best or worse...

Captain Zissou

September 25, 2012, 07:56:52 AM
Who is threatening them? Is WLA saying that their dozen or so supporters won't visit the shoppes anymore?? These guys really need to move to deerwood. If RAP is the one making threats, that is ridiculous and grossly overreaching their authority.

thelakelander

September 25, 2012, 07:58:11 AM
Wow, who is threatening merchants with boycotts for supporting the idea of a pizza restaurant opening on a long time blighted commercial site?  Whoever would do something like that obviously needs to be exposed.

strider

September 25, 2012, 09:33:23 AM
This was standard operating procedure in Springfield for many years and is always a favored tactic of groups opposing something for all the wrong reasons.  RAP and WLA will deny any of this at the top of their lungs, but the truth will be that they are threatening boycotts, to use MCCD against them and whatever else they believe will shut out the truth.  If you don't like it happening, go to the meetings and say so.  Standing up to bullies usually works, though it can be painful. What is the truth worth to you?

cline

September 25, 2012, 10:18:04 AM
Heard at the last minute yesterday about a neighborhood "meeting" at Avondale UMC at 6pm.  I assumed it was about MM but hadn't heard any details so don't know for sure.  Wondering if anybody on MJ had any details.

mtraininjax

September 26, 2012, 11:24:18 PM
Quote
If RAP is the one making threats, that is ridiculous and grossly overreaching their authority.

CZ, really? RAP is bigger than the shoppes, it comprises over 10,000 households. Get a grip on reality!

thelakelander

September 26, 2012, 11:43:50 PM
Does the neighborhood have 10,000 residents?

PeeJayEss

September 27, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
Quote
If RAP is the one making threats, that is ridiculous and grossly overreaching their authority.

CZ, really? RAP is bigger than the shoppes, it comprises over 10,000 households. Get a grip on reality!

Soooo...being comprised of over 10,000 households means that it is well within its authority to threaten people? I don't understand what you're saying.

And RAP is comprised of members of RAP. They don't have dominion over all the houses within the historic district.

Captain Zissou

September 27, 2012, 09:56:52 AM
Quote
If RAP is the one making threats, that is ridiculous and grossly overreaching their authority.

CZ, really? RAP is bigger than the shoppes, it comprises over 10,000 households. Get a grip on reality!

The federal government can't even threaten business owners for speaking out in support of a fellow business owner, so why would RAP be able to?  Seriously buddy, you haven't said one intelligent thing in the past few months.

fieldafm

September 27, 2012, 10:07:20 AM
Quote
If RAP is the one making threats, that is ridiculous and grossly overreaching their authority.

CZ, really? RAP is bigger than the shoppes, it comprises over 10,000 households. Get a grip on reality!

There are far less than 10,000 households in the District (more like ~4k) and less than 10,000 residents. 

Captain Zissou

September 27, 2012, 10:24:35 AM
^Nobody else is concerned that mtrain wants to infringe on the business owners' rights to free speech?  I didn't realize RAP was allowed to engage in gangland politics.  Hey mtrain, maybe if they smash their windows that'll teach them.  Dissent must be crushed at all levels.  Right, comrade?

mtraininjax

September 27, 2012, 09:53:00 PM
Quote
The federal government can't even threaten business owners for speaking out in support of a fellow business owner, so why would RAP be able to?  Seriously buddy, you haven't said one intelligent thing in the past few months.

CZ, you have lost it, do really live in the neighborhood? A non-profit threatening the very supporters of the organization? Really? WLA is feeding you some real good BS.  I hear Mandarin is looking for people who have too much stress.

No one from RAP is threatening anyone. I think you have lost it.

Quote
There are far less than 10,000 households in the District (more like ~4k) and less than 10,000 residents.

Well, ok 4000 then, do really think there is a conspiracy of 145 WLA residents (as identified on the WLA website) against the 3,855 other residences? RAP is all about taking a side of the 3.635% of citizens to deny the other 3,855?

If John loses his fight, its because he failed to capture a majority over the 145. Pretty sad if that happens.
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