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A Closer Look At 220 Riverside

220 Riverside is an urban mixed-use multifamily apartment community that will be developed around a park called Unity Plaza, at the intersection of Riverside Avenue and Forest Street in Brooklyn. Proposed by Hallmark Partners and Bristol Development, the $37 million project includes 16,500 square feet of ground floor retail space, 285 residential units, and a 386-space parking garage. With units ranging from 615 to 1,200 square feet, rents will average around $1,200 a month.

Published March 8, 2012 in Development      201 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article

feature

Location



220 Riverside will be located at the intersection of Forest Street and Riverside Avenue.




220 Riverside will be located adjacent to the City of Jacksonville's recently completed Brooklyn stormwater project.  220 Riverside's development team envisions creating a space around the pond that will serve as a central public plaza for the surrounding area.


Floor Plans



The first level will feature retail space and the entrance to a 386-space parking garage.  Additional land, across the street from the proposed Riverside Park project, is intended to be developed as an office project at a later date.

Subgrade Floor Plan


First Floor Plan




Second Floor Plan


Third - Sixth Floors


Terrace Floor Plan


Elevations






220 Riverside's proposed design was unanimously approved by the Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB) on March 1, 2012.  With commitments for financing and a contractor already in hand, it is anticpated that construction will start this Summer and take 18 months to complete.  When complete, it will be the first five story wooden structure built in Jacksonville.

For more information about 220 Riverside, visit:

http://www.facebook.com/220Riverside

http://220riversideave.wordpress.com

Update by Ennis Davis










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201 Comments

I-10east

March 08, 2012, 03:15:08 AM
It looks nice, alot like some of the swanky urban developments that you see in other cosmopolitan cities. I'll be kinda surprised if anyone complains about this, but this is MJ afterall JK. :)

dougskiles

March 08, 2012, 06:11:24 AM
No complaints from me.  I like it!

thelakelander

March 08, 2012, 06:20:06 AM
Ditto.  However, I do wonder why it is felt by some that Riverside Park must include gated surface parking around the perimeter for financing when the proposed project literally across the street doesn't?  I believe these two projects alone, have the ability to completely transform Brooklyn between Park and Riverside.

acme54321

March 08, 2012, 07:11:37 AM
I don't think anyone will be complaining about this plan!

Treefort

March 08, 2012, 07:24:28 AM
It will be the first 5 story wooden structure built in Jacksonville? Really? Can you explain that in a little more detail? I'm very curious.

ben says

March 08, 2012, 07:45:12 AM
I like the looks of this design

jcjohnpaint

March 08, 2012, 07:48:00 AM
Yeah I have a friend in from LA and we have been talking about this a lot.  I love this project and the building looks beautiful. 

ubben

March 08, 2012, 08:28:10 AM
How is that very large parking garage going to look as we drive down Riverside Avenue? I hope they do something creative with it to keep it from being a dead zone.

jcjohnpaint

March 08, 2012, 09:07:45 AM
Is there going to be any entrances or storefronts or just garage on the first floor. 

thelakelander

March 08, 2012, 09:10:18 AM
Here's the building's proposed facade along Riverside Avenue:



It should be fine, considering there's the potential for more street level activity in phase two, which would be immediately north of the garage.

Captain Zissou

March 08, 2012, 09:25:40 AM
It will be the first 5 story wooden structure built in Jacksonville? Really? Can you explain that in a little more detail? I'm very curious.

Me too.  What would be the reason for using wood for this?  Cost??  This isn't going to be another Villas of St Johns is it??  I love that place, but some of the walls bow out at least 2 inches. 

I will say one thing. Of all the multi-family projects in the core, this is the only one with a pool that will actually get full sun.  It's facing south, not too tall of buildings on either side, brilliant!!  When I lived at the peninsula, if you weren't on the pool deck by 12:15 you missed the sun.

copperfiend

March 08, 2012, 09:35:52 AM
Looks great. I think this will be a real catalyst for the area.

HerschelStRes

March 08, 2012, 11:31:07 AM
Any way to find out who the general contractor is for this project?

Tacachale

March 08, 2012, 11:43:36 AM
I really like this. Much needed.

duvaldude08

March 08, 2012, 11:57:37 AM
THANK YOU GOD! And with Khan committing to help finance the Laura Street Trio, looks like ole duval county will rise from the ashes for the recession after all.

mtraininjax

March 08, 2012, 01:01:04 PM
Quote
And with Khan committing to help finance the Laura Street Trio, looks like ole duval county will rise from the ashes for the recession after all.

Whoa Nellie, we're not out of the woods yet. People still cannot sell their homes to move to jobs and until the equity level improves with homes, we will not see the clearing from deep in the woods.

Nice drawings, I think I saw something like that with the Shipyards, so we'll see when they put a shovel in the ground.

duvaldude08

March 08, 2012, 01:35:57 PM
Quote
And with Khan committing to help finance the Laura Street Trio, looks like ole duval county will rise from the ashes for the recession after all.

Whoa Nellie, we're not out of the woods yet. People still cannot sell their homes to move to jobs and until the equity level improves with homes, we will not see the clearing from deep in the woods.

Nice drawings, I think I saw something like that with the Shipyards, so we'll see when they put a shovel in the ground.

Im speaking of projects finally moving that the recession slowed down. Thats it. I wasnt talking about anythingelse.

JaxNative68

March 08, 2012, 04:05:00 PM
not to be a wet blanket, but i have a couple of complains.
1) the buildings do not take advantage of the zero lot line set back along Riverside Avenue - which in my opinion loses some Urban appeal.
2) the 'service drive' with diagonal parking off riverside avenue kills the urban street scape along Riverside Ave.  This parking could have been incorporated into the site allowing the buildings to be pushed up against the sidewalk, giving it a true urban feel.

To end on a positive note:  I do like the overall architecture.  It's crisp and has a progressive feel, something that will be a nice addition to Jacksonville.

Jason

March 08, 2012, 06:49:27 PM
I think the setback along Riverside Ave was to allow for future Skyway expansion.

Keith-N-Jax

March 08, 2012, 07:05:22 PM
Looks really nice. I just hope it looks like the rendering when complete. This area has been screaming for something like this. Its so un-Jacksonville like though,,lol how's that I-10 east,,J/k btw. I really like this and hope it follows through.

Anti redneck

March 08, 2012, 07:28:58 PM
Was this the same plan that drew controversy from DDRB?

acme54321

March 08, 2012, 07:30:36 PM
Was this the same plan that drew controversy from DDRB?

No that is caddy corner to the north of this property.

Ocklawaha

March 08, 2012, 08:26:29 PM
I don't know if I like it, I mean, hell, I'm waiting for them to revive The St. John condo project. We 'need' a 50+ floor brilliantly lit structure.  ;)



Quote
Hines Announces Contractor Selection for the St. John

8/30/2006

JACKSONVILLE, Florida — Hines has tapped an elite team of construction, architecture, design and engineering firms to design and build The St. John, a 51-story luxury condominium tower that will be the new icon on Jacksonville’s skyline.

W.G. Yates & Sons Construction Company of Philadelphia, Mississippi, has been chosen as the general contractor to build the 640,000-square-foot luxury tower on the south bank of Downtown’s riverfront. W.G. Yates, which has an extensive portfolio of completed high-rise, residential, resort and hotel construction projects – including the Pelican Beach and Portofino Condominiums on Florida’s Gulf Coast – expects to begin building The St. John in December and complete the building in approximately two-and-a-half years.

“This announcement follows a long, scrupulous review of national firms who are all top performers in their field,” said Michael Harrison, senior vice president of Hines. “Our evaluation culminated with the selection of an incredible team of industry professionals – one that undoubtedly has the experience and prestige to create a high-rise masterpiece in one of Florida’s most dynamic cities.”

Plans for The St. John include 300 luxury condominium homes in a tower located adjacent to The Aetna Building on Jacksonville’s Southbank. The St. John will rise nearly 582 feet and its west façade will be within 15 feet from the edge of the St. Johns River. Ground breaking is expected later this year with occupancy slated for 2009. Preliminary pricing of units is estimated at a range of $325,000 to more than $2 million.

The tower has been designed by Miami-based Arquitectonica – a firm that has earned international acclaim for its creative use of building forms that transform skylines.

The firm is planning many high-end, cutting-edge architectural details for The St. John including floor-to-ceiling, tinted glass exterior walls and clear glass balcony railings that will emphasize the views of the winding river.

"At The St. John, residents will have an infinite backyard – sweeping views of the beautiful St. Johns River,” said Bernardo Fort-Brescia FAIA, principal of Arquitectonica

“This building will certainly take advantage of the river views, which surround the building in every direction.”

jcjohnpaint

March 09, 2012, 12:58:41 AM
yeah I loved the look of the St. Johns Tower.  I do hope that goes in at some point. 

Anti redneck

March 09, 2012, 01:57:59 AM
yeah I loved the look of the St. Johns Tower.  I do hope that goes in at some point.

I say send all these dead projects their way. I'm sure there's a way to get them going again.

JaxNative68

March 09, 2012, 11:13:47 AM
The St John tower is a nice design, but the site is all wrong.  I was shoehorned in between the bridge and the Aetna building.  Plus I can't imagine the bottle neck of traffic with the hospital, the residential tower and the train tracks during high volume times.

duvaldude08

March 09, 2012, 11:27:50 AM
The St John tower is a nice design, but the site is all wrong.  I was shoehorned in between the bridge and the Aetna building.  Plus I can't imagine the bottle neck of traffic with the hospital, the residential tower and the train tracks during high volume times.

Yeah that location puzzled me. I work over at Prudential and I went looked at the site once on my break and wondered how the heck they were going to build that thing.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

March 09, 2012, 11:30:18 AM
The St John tower is a nice design, but the site is all wrong.  I was shoehorned in between the bridge and the Aetna building.  Plus I can't imagine the bottle neck of traffic with the hospital, the residential tower and the train tracks during high volume times.

Agreed 100%.  I had almost forgotten about this project and I'm in and out of that area all the time.  What was the driving force in selecting 'that' location?

Vu was also supposed to go up near the Peninsula, but I know ALV had backed out of that project even before The Strand was completed.  I don't remember if they even had the property, or if that was still in development also.

thelakelander

March 10, 2012, 10:14:22 AM
If you haven't read a copy of the Jax Biz Journal this week, I'd recommend trying to pick up a copy.  They have a couple of articles about the Brooklyn apartment developments, the Laura Trio, and an editorial blasting DDRB member Chris Flagg for saying the Riverside Park project was too suburban.  In the article "Can Brooklyn support nearly 600 new apartments?"  they have a quote from Ray Rodriguez that will surely irritate urban core advocates.  Rodriguez, president of the Real Estate Strategy Center of North Florida doesn't believe there's a real demand for either 220 Riverside or Riverside Park.  However, he makes the claim that two similar projects underway on the Southside are more viable.

Quote
Rodriguez said he doesn't favor any big developments in Northeast Florida, but that ones near the town center may be a little more viable (one project is actually a few miles away at I-295/9A and Baymeadows). 

A lot of people travel there (SJTC) for entertainment, for working and what have you.  The momentum is there," Rodriguez said.  "Statistically, if you have 1,000 fishes going by the entrance and you put out a net, yeah, you're going to catch some.  How many people travel to Riverside?"

Ocklawaha

March 10, 2012, 10:21:14 AM
Quote
"Statistically, if you have 1,000 fishes going by the entrance and you put out a net, yeah, you're going to catch some.  How many people travel to Riverside?"

Oh, only about 2,000!

Wake up and smell the (Maxwell House) coffee, with every cent increase in the price of gas, Brooklyn, La Villa, Riverside, San Marco, etc. become more attractive.

thelakelander

March 10, 2012, 10:38:28 AM
I agree with 220 Riverside's Alex Coley in the article. There's a pent up demand for this type of housing and Brooklyn is a great location. I would have never went to the Southside if these options were available when I moved here 8 years ago.

Ocklawaha

March 10, 2012, 11:27:13 AM
Me either Lake, had del "Ministerio de Transporte" de la República de Colombia, not threatened to run over me with a bus!

Tacachale

March 10, 2012, 01:58:59 PM
We shouldn't be quiet about this one. Does the Business Journal accept letters from readers?

JeffreyS

March 10, 2012, 06:09:50 PM
We shouldn't be quiet about this one. Does the Business Journal accept letters from readers?

I commented on the articles on their site.  Lincoln has already said they would present revised plans based on the DDRB input so how can the Biz Journal believe that input is a bad thing. Mr. Rodriguez sounds ridiculous.

thelakelander

March 10, 2012, 07:18:32 PM
I thought Rodriguez sounded pretty ridiculous as well.  That Brooklyn land is just about as ideal as it gets.  Two blocks from the riverfront, totally undeveloped and boxed in by downtown, Five Points/Riverside, office companies employing thousands across the street, and direct access to I-95 and I-10.

Lucasjj

March 22, 2012, 10:32:35 AM
The JEDC approved the grants for this project.

Quote

JEDC OKs grants for Brooklyn apartment development

The Jacksonville Economic Development Commission recommended Wednesday up to $4.9 million in grants for an apartment development in the Brooklyn neighborhood in the downtown area.

The grants would be paid out over 20 years by reducing the amount of city property taxes paid on the value of the new buildings by 75 percent each year.

Other taxing entities such as the school district would still receive the full value of taxes on the
apartments.

The 20-year payout of grants exceeds the 10-year limit for residential development in the city’s financial incentive policy that dates back to 2006. The city would waive that provision of the policy.



Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-03-21/story/jedc-oks-grants-brooklyn-apartment-development#ixzz1pr90MgFC

Anti redneck

April 27, 2012, 10:59:28 PM
Any update on this project?

mtraininjax

April 28, 2012, 09:46:37 AM
Quote
There's a pent up demand for this type of housing and Brooklyn is a great location.

Pent up in Brooklyn? There's nothing around it for blocks. The only redeeming quality of Brooklyn now is that there is a giant concrete hole at the corner of Riverside and Forest.

ben says

April 28, 2012, 09:49:12 AM
Quote
There's a pent up demand for this type of housing and Brooklyn is a great location.

Pent up in Brooklyn? There's nothing around it for blocks. The only redeeming quality of Brooklyn now is that there is a giant concrete hole at the corner of Riverside and Forest.

My thoughts as well.

If the only 'plus' is "it's close to all those big companies on Riverside Blvd"....well, don't really see anyone moving there just for that.

thelakelander

April 28, 2012, 10:55:45 AM
That comment said there's pent up demand for a housing product and that Brooklyn is a great location for said product.  That's two different things.

First, there is a pent up demand for urban oriented apartments in Jacksonville and the nation.  Even local newspaper articles have announced the development of several throughout this city over the last few months.

Second, pent up demand aside, why would Brooklyn not be an ideal location for an urban styled apartment development?  It's midway between downtown and Five Points, right off I-95/I-10, two blocks from the river, and across the street from thousands of office workers. 

Looking at it from that point of view, 200 Riverside's location is a great site for an urban apartment project.

Tacachale

April 28, 2012, 11:07:55 AM
^My thoughts exactly.

zedsdead

April 28, 2012, 11:49:21 AM
it is so obvious. I couldn't agree more with the last two posts.

duvaldude08

May 04, 2012, 05:41:06 PM
one more hurdle to go and they can get a construction permit.

Quote

Hallmark Partners’ 220 Riverside mixed-use development approved
The site layout and architectural plans for a mixed-use development along Riverside Avenue in the Brooklyn section of Downtown was granted final approval Thursday by the Downtown Development review Board of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission.
The project, 220 Riverside, proposed by Hallmark Partners, comprises 294 residential units with a clubhouse and amenities deck adjacent to the City’s urban park development on Riverside Avenue at Forest Street.

Architect Jason Faulkner, principal of Studio 9 Architecture, said the project’s design was substantially developed with the park in mind.

The site plan includes more than 15,000 square feet of retail space facing the park.

“The whole project is driven by the park. The retail aspect has to support the park,” said Faulkner.

He said having the commercial element of the design relating to the park will add an element to the public space.

“The park is only going to function if we program the park year-round,” said Faulkner.

He said the design of the building will add a new and more contemporary look to Jacksonville’s architectural inventory. The windows on the apartment units slide horizontally and the design of the exterior will include the use of corrugated metal panels, something that has not been used to date in North Florida.

Questioned by board members about the choice of corrugated metal, Faulkner said it’s an urban design trend that has become widely used in other markets.

“It’s all over the country. We think Jacksonville is ready for it,” Faulkner said.

He said the material is economical, requires little maintenance and will give the building texture.

On the overall design, Faulkner described it as “not overly ornate.”

“We’re going to let the geometry of the building speak for itself,” he said.

Another element of the design shown in the presentation is a “living wall” on the parking garage facing Riverside Avenue.

Faulkner said that while it will likely take more than a year for the wall to reach full potential, it’s included in the design as a way to “make a garage wall even remotely inviting” in an urban environment.

The project now faces architectural plan review by the City prior to building permits being issued. The developer’s representative said Thursday that construction can’t begin soon enough.

“We’d be happy to start this afternoon,” said Coen Purvis, senior vice president of Hallmark Partners.

Seraphs

May 08, 2012, 10:42:24 PM
I don't know if I like it, I mean, hell, I'm waiting for them to revive The St. John condo project. We 'need' a 50+ floor brilliantly lit structure.  ;)



Quote
Hines Announces Contractor Selection for the St. John

8/30/2006

JACKSONVILLE, Florida — Hines has tapped an elite team of construction, architecture, design and engineering firms to design and build The St. John, a 51-story luxury condominium tower that will be the new icon on Jacksonville’s skyline.

W.G. Yates & Sons Construction Company of Philadelphia, Mississippi, has been chosen as the general contractor to build the 640,000-square-foot luxury tower on the south bank of Downtown’s riverfront. W.G. Yates, which has an extensive portfolio of completed high-rise, residential, resort and hotel construction projects – including the Pelican Beach and Portofino Condominiums on Florida’s Gulf Coast – expects to begin building The St. John in December and complete the building in approximately two-and-a-half years.

“This announcement follows a long, scrupulous review of national firms who are all top performers in their field,” said Michael Harrison, senior vice president of Hines. “Our evaluation culminated with the selection of an incredible team of industry professionals – one that undoubtedly has the experience and prestige to create a high-rise masterpiece in one of Florida’s most dynamic cities.”

Plans for The St. John include 300 luxury condominium homes in a tower located adjacent to The Aetna Building on Jacksonville’s Southbank. The St. John will rise nearly 582 feet and its west façade will be within 15 feet from the edge of the St. Johns River. Ground breaking is expected later this year with occupancy slated for 2009. Preliminary pricing of units is estimated at a range of $325,000 to more than $2 million.

The tower has been designed by Miami-based Arquitectonica – a firm that has earned international acclaim for its creative use of building forms that transform skylines.

The firm is planning many high-end, cutting-edge architectural details for The St. John including floor-to-ceiling, tinted glass exterior walls and clear glass balcony railings that will emphasize the views of the winding river.

"At The St. John, residents will have an infinite backyard – sweeping views of the beautiful St. Johns River,” said Bernardo Fort-Brescia FAIA, principal of Arquitectonica

“This building will certainly take advantage of the river views, which surround the building in every direction.”

Ditto, ditto, what he said.

simms3

May 08, 2012, 11:01:14 PM
^^^Tabled.  Hines is off condos and on rentals, and they are no longer looking at Jacksonville.  Nobody has told me so, but I can guarantee it.

Quote
Hines multifamily business will be handled through Hines Global REIT Inc., which has five to 10 active sites earmarked for office developments that will probably be converted.

“Good office sites make good apartment sites,” Patton said.

Hines, with 63 U.S. offices, wants to develop luxury apartments in 15 to 20 U.S. markets, including Houston, Dallas, Austin and Washington, D.C.

All condo plans have been scrapped here, in Austin, in Charlotte, and just about everywhere.  I believe that land was also already sold or has been on the market or maybe off the market, but nothing is happening there.

edjax

July 31, 2012, 09:44:46 PM
Anything going on with this project?

tufsu1

July 31, 2012, 11:05:39 PM
I think there was a report last week that sai construction woul start by the end of the year

officerk

August 01, 2012, 02:01:04 AM
it is a beautiful concept and I think the location is good.. the concern I have is the cost - $1200 a month?? isn't that a lil bit high for an apartment in JAX? especially a 700 sq ft apartment? I know that it states that is the average cost - but still... that is what I paid for my uber awesome apartment in L.A. and to pay that kind of money JAX that had better be a billy badass apartment!  The cost of living and earnings are not on level with Los Angeles, can an apartment complex that is survive?  It will have to have some serious bells and whistles...

jcjohnpaint

August 01, 2012, 07:27:24 AM
I think it is interesting you mention this.  I have been looking for a new apartment in Riverside and DT.  What I am finding is you will pay about 500/ month more to locate DT/ intown from the southside.  There is no urban stock apts with amenities intown/ or very little.  I feel this is a reason the prices are higher and why people from the outside (such as myself) move to the southside and stay there.  What I don't understand is why developers don't build intown.  Everyone I meet from the NE wants to live intown, but settles for the southside for this reason?

ben says

August 01, 2012, 07:35:43 AM
it is a beautiful concept and I think the location is good.. the concern I have is the cost - $1200 a month?? isn't that a lil bit high for an apartment in JAX? especially a 700 sq ft apartment? I know that it states that is the average cost - but still... that is what I paid for my uber awesome apartment in L.A. and to pay that kind of money JAX that had better be a billy badass apartment!  The cost of living and earnings are not on level with Los Angeles, can an apartment complex that is survive?  It will have to have some serious bells and whistles...

Whether or not is survives will not be a product of the rent they are asking for. Look at 1661 Riverside. I don't think there's an apartment in there for less than ~$1,150. I think with one or two exceptions (corporate apartments unused, or periods between people moving in/out) the place is 100% rented.

ben says

August 01, 2012, 08:07:23 AM
I think it is interesting you mention this.  I have been looking for a new apartment in Riverside and DT.  What I am finding is you will pay about 500/ month more to locate DT/ intown from the southside.  There is no urban stock apts with amenities intown/ or very little.  I feel this is a reason the prices are higher and why people from the outside (such as myself) move to the southside and stay there.  What I don't understand is why developers don't build intown.  Everyone I meet from the NE wants to live intown, but settles for the southside for this reason?

Developers don't care what you "want", per se...they care about the profit margin. Somewhere along the line, the developers of 220 Riverside are thinking "we're about to make a pretty penny"....I doubt much time in the corporate board room is spent on the "wants" of their current Southside residents.

Captain Zissou

August 01, 2012, 09:34:24 AM
First, 1661 is condos, not apartments. 

Is it bad that a developer is trying to make a profit off of an apartment complex?  You try and make money at your job, they do the same.  Cheap land and fewer design restrictions were what started the Southside boom.  If nobody rented those units, the boom would have died off before it started.  The fact that people responded favorably to those initial developments is what has created the past 10 years in terms of the multi-family market in Jax.  Now, the market is more interested in living downtown, so the developers follow the trends.  In response to your comment, the developers really do care about what you want.  What you want makes them more money. 

fieldafm

August 01, 2012, 09:43:03 AM
Quote
Now, the market is more interested in living downtown, so the developers follow the trends.  In response to your comment, the developers really do care about what you want.  What you want makes them more money. 

+1

duvaldude08

August 01, 2012, 11:24:30 AM
it is a beautiful concept and I think the location is good.. the concern I have is the cost - $1200 a month?? isn't that a lil bit high for an apartment in JAX? especially a 700 sq ft apartment? I know that it states that is the average cost - but still... that is what I paid for my uber awesome apartment in L.A. and to pay that kind of money JAX that had better be a billy badass apartment!  The cost of living and earnings are not on level with Los Angeles, can an apartment complex that is survive?  It will have to have some serious bells and whistles...

I believe that is the price in general. Depending on the floor plan and how many bedroom, the prices will differ. I think the 1200.00 is the max. But beleive or not, people in Jax will pay that for rent. I know a few who will...

edjax

August 01, 2012, 07:13:04 PM
I think there was a report last week that sai construction woul start by the end of the year

Thanks for the update. I hope they do move forward as stated as drove by it the other day and still looked like a wasteland with the signature park to be surrounded by weeds and looking pretty typical Jax.

jcjohnpaint

August 01, 2012, 07:23:35 PM
All I am saying is that there is demand.  A strong demand, but most cities have southside type apts set in an urban setting.  Jax is one of the few that has so little urban living choices.  I do hope this project changes such patterns. 

officerk

August 13, 2012, 11:06:06 PM
A max of $1200 is one thing.. but the article said average of $1200.. that is a different bird.. if there are people that can fill it (afford it) that is great - I just know that Jacksonville is no Los Angeles and that is awful high for an apartment here.  The apartment that I had in L.A. had amenities galore for that price tag... as I said - it was my concern.. 

thelakelander

August 14, 2012, 01:37:55 AM
Without a heavy dose of public incentives you can't put up a structure like this and make it affordable or subsidized housing.  Nevertheless, ultimately the market will determine the price point but its pretty consistent with the price range of similar multifamily developments across the city.  Before the market went up in flames, 3bed/2baths in my condo development were running around $1,400/month when HOA fees were included.

Dog Walker

August 14, 2012, 10:22:15 AM
Saw a work crew doing soil borings at the site last week.  First step in the design and engineering process.

edjax

August 26, 2012, 04:54:52 PM
Per Times Union they are expected to break ground within 60 days or so!  Great news!  Any word or rumors on potential retail?  Hopefully this will also jump start retail in Everbank building also.

mtraininjax

August 27, 2012, 08:24:35 AM
Quote
Hopefully this will also jump start retail in Everbank building also.

Forget Everbank, jump start BROOKLYN!!!!

jaxeeyore

November 13, 2012, 09:21:50 AM
Average monthly rent $1,200.00 to live in an area where it's  not safe to walk after dark and questionable during the day.  I think the developers should take a hard look at the John Gorrie Condo project on College street and re-think these plans.  It's a vacant failure and this development will be as well.

fsujax

November 13, 2012, 09:27:36 AM
not safe to walk at night and questionalble during the day. Really? I guess all those people who work at Everbank, Fidelity and BCBS should be fearing for their lives when they have to walk from their car to the building or walking to Johnnys or 2 Doors Down for lunch.

thelakelander

November 13, 2012, 09:35:29 AM
Not safe to walk down Riverside Avenue at night?  The place is deserted at night.  The main danger is crossing the street on foot during the day.

river4340

November 13, 2012, 09:36:14 AM
I have a hard time believing that anyone really thinks you can't walk Riverside during the day.

Captain Zissou

November 13, 2012, 09:49:13 AM
If it's not safe during the day, somebody needs to tell the hundreds of joggers that run down Riverside to watch out.  Seriously, you can't drive down riverside ave between 4 and 7 pm without seeing a dozen people out running.

copperfiend

November 13, 2012, 10:23:57 AM
Average monthly rent $1,200.00 to live in an area where it's  not safe to walk after dark and questionable during the day.  I think the developers should take a hard look at the John Gorrie Condo project on College street and re-think these plans.  It's a vacant failure and this development will be as well.

Interesting first post

goldy21

November 13, 2012, 10:38:11 AM
Average monthly rent $1,200.00 to live in an area where it's  not safe to walk after dark and questionable during the day.  I think the developers should take a hard look at the John Gorrie Condo project on College street and re-think these plans.  It's a vacant failure and this development will be as well.

Captain Zissou

November 13, 2012, 10:40:37 AM
^NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need more GIFs on this forum.

CityLife

November 13, 2012, 10:44:35 AM
There are a lot of people and businesses in this town who will potentially take a financial hit if Downtown and the urban core ever truly take off. That is something I try to keep in mind when reading anonymous posts from anonymous posters.

tufsu1

November 13, 2012, 10:47:45 AM
^NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need more GIFs on this forum.

this is Webster's word of the year

jaxeeyore

November 13, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
Have you considered why Johnny's and Two Doors Down close after lunch?  Hookers, crackheads and muggers are the only people left in the area north of the Fuller Warren after the office buildings empty out.  Ask a JSO Officer to drive you through the area just to the west of Two Doors Down and you will see the real "Brooklyn".  $1,200.00 a month rent for this area is a fantasy.

fsujax

November 13, 2012, 10:55:13 AM
Citylife you are so dead on with that comment.

Bridges

November 13, 2012, 10:56:02 AM
Have you considered why Johnny's and Two Doors Down close after lunch? 

Because, like everyone already said, it's deserted after that?

CityLife

November 13, 2012, 10:56:39 AM
Uhhh...The YMCA is open till 10PM and the Riverwalk is always packed with joggers and bikers. The area is relatively dead after dark because nobody lives there, not because its a scary place. That will change when all these new units go up.

Where do you live eeyore?

Captain Zissou

November 13, 2012, 11:20:41 AM
Even if the area is less than stellar after dark, the entire neighborhood is a very isolated 6 by 9 block area (using the most generous measurements, it should be more like 6 by 6), where half of it is patrolled by private security after dark.  It's almost a fortified enclave of privately patrolled safety.  Once 220 and Brooklyn Park go in, I think this will be one of the safest areas in the entire core.

MEGATRON

November 13, 2012, 11:26:31 AM
Have you considered why Johnny's and Two Doors Down close after lunch?  Hookers, crackheads and muggers are the only people left in the area north of the Fuller Warren after the office buildings empty out.  Ask a JSO Officer to drive you through the area just to the west of Two Doors Down and you will see the real "Brooklyn".  $1,200.00 a month rent for this area is a fantasy.

Riverrat

November 13, 2012, 12:17:43 PM
So excited for this to get underway. This is a great project for the area - and such a great connection to downtown. I've always thought this would be the perfect "West End" type of area (if you're familiar with Nashville - it connects downtown with the historic districts).

With that said, why has everything possible been done to destroy Forest Street? Think about it. With the new interchange, this opened up a world of potential for Forest and Riverside, but instead? There are retention ponds and culdesacs (yes, culdesacs) strangely placed so that almost no corner on Forest can be developed.
Park & Forest: Retention Pond
Riverside & Forest: Park land
And I haven't yet figured out the two streets that dead end with a culdesac instead of connecting to Forest, but there are two of them. It's the most mind-boggling thing. It's as if someone didn't want anything done with this street besides it being a connector to Riverside Ave. A Frankenstein story of sorts.

river4340

November 13, 2012, 12:20:58 PM
The T-U story, though it's members only:

http://jacksonville.com/premium-promo/2012-11-13/story/transformational-riverside-avenue-project-will-kick-tuesday

If_I_Loved_you

November 13, 2012, 12:26:42 PM
Have you considered why Johnny's and Two Doors Down close after lunch?  Hookers, crackheads and muggers are the only people left in the area north of the Fuller Warren after the office buildings empty out.  Ask a JSO Officer to drive you through the area just to the west of Two Doors Down and you will see the real "Brooklyn".  $1,200.00 a month rent for this area is a fantasy.
"1,200.00 a month rent for this area is a fantasy." Not True if you have been to San Francisco, Chicago, and NYC you can pay a lot more and walk out of your apartment and see a lot worst then what Brooklyn Jacksonville Florida has on the streets. I believe this is a great idea and I look forward to it being built and seeing this area with new life.  ;)

jaxeeyore

November 13, 2012, 01:13:27 PM
I will close out my highly intelligent comments on this issue with a final thought.  Look at the John Gorrie project on College Street and you will see the future of 220 Riverside.  It costs millions to develop, beautiful to look at, and sits vacant for years because ole Delores Weaver thought she could put lipstick on a pig and sell upscale condos in the hood.  Peace out. 

http://www.thejohngorrie.com/

goldy21

November 13, 2012, 01:17:52 PM
I will close out my highly intelligent comments on this issue with a final thought.  Look at the John Gorrie project on College Street and you will see the future of 220 Riverside.  It costs millions to develop, beautiful to look at, and sits vacant for years because ole Delores Weaver thought she could put lipstick on a pig and sell upscale condos in the hood.  Peace out. 

http://www.thejohngorrie.com/

acme54321

November 13, 2012, 01:23:02 PM
I will close out my highly intelligent comments on this issue with a final thought.  Look at the John Gorrie project on College Street and you will see the future of 220 Riverside.  It costs millions to develop, beautiful to look at, and sits vacant for years because ole Delores Weaver thought she could put lipstick on a pig and sell upscale condos in the hood.  Peace out. 

http://www.thejohngorrie.com/

So because a condo is having trouble selling means apartments a few miles away won't get rented?  Hmmm.

duvaldude08

November 13, 2012, 01:23:17 PM
I will close out my highly intelligent comments on this issue with a final thought.  Look at the John Gorrie project on College Street and you will see the future of 220 Riverside.  It costs millions to develop, beautiful to look at, and sits vacant for years because ole Delores Weaver thought she could put lipstick on a pig and sell upscale condos in the hood.  Peace out. 

http://www.thejohngorrie.com/

You missed on thing. John Corrie are condos and 220 Riverside are apartments. You have to get approved and financing for condos. That's the major set back on those. I searched for a condo at one point, and you have to pay pretty heafty down payments to get into one. The Apartment market is smoking right now, which will make 220 Riverside success. And since when is Riverside consider "the hood" ???

downtownjag

November 13, 2012, 01:25:51 PM
I will close out my highly intelligent comments on this issue with a final thought.  Look at the John Gorrie project on College Street and you will see the future of 220 Riverside.  It costs millions to develop, beautiful to look at, and sits vacant for years because ole Delores Weaver thought she could put lipstick on a pig and sell upscale condos in the hood.  Peace out. 

http://www.thejohngorrie.com/

You should probably look at rent PSF and find your competing properties before making your argument.  This project is much more comparable to The Strand than a condo project; and The Strand has comparable/higher rents PSF.

simms3

November 13, 2012, 01:31:49 PM
$1200/mo is relative.  I am most likely moving to SF in Jan/Feb and sure you can't even find a closet in the "wonderful" Tenderloin area for $1200, but you're also getting paid at least 60% more than where I live now, Atlanta, conversely where you're already getting paid probably 20-30% more than in Jax.

$1200/mo will be sticker shock to most in Jax.  The mentality in Jax is different.  It's a market where the expectations are a little different and it will take some time and "re-education" to build up a true critical mass of people demanding an expensive urban living experience.  In Jax $1200 will get you a 1BR in the best, newest community with square footage, granite countertops, amenities, security, new appliances, convenience, etc etc only 5-15 minutes from downtown and right in the heart of the city's largest office/shopping submarket.  There's not as large of a crowd in Jax that will willingly forgo that option for less square footage, less luxury features, less convenience, no walkability (yet), which is the whole reason for being there, and in an area with a less than stellar image in the community.  True, many cities have this class of people in large quantities (I know in SF people my age will live out of their car for a while just to be there), but in Jax the climate and rental model is just different.

When I check online, $1200 will nearly get you into the Strand, which is about as nice as a rental community gets ANYWHERE.  Is $1200 achievable?  Yes.  Is it a walk in the park to ask Jacksonvillians for that for this project in this area?  Probably not.

Fingers crossed for the developers and for Jacksonville/Brooklyn, but let's be real here, the only reason this is happening is because there is an apartment bubble and it's the only thing you can get debt for nowadays (with many agencies having loosened their underwriting standards for multifamily).  My firm has a multifamily development site that we inherited in Jax as part of a portfolio.  We continued on with the developments in Raleigh and Miami, let go of Orlando, and will let go of Jax because the overall market is just terrible.

Lots of new construction in the uber popular southside that will be competition for the Brooklyn projects.  Same rent, but you get so much more.  For most it will be an easy decision that will likely not lead them to Brooklyn.

downtownjag

November 13, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
$1200/mo is relative.  I am most likely moving to SF in Jan/Feb and sure you can't even find a closet in the "wonderful" Tenderloin area for $1200, but you're also getting paid at least 60% more than where I live now, Atlanta, conversely where you're already getting paid probably 20-30% more than in Jax.

$1200/mo will be sticker shock to most in Jax.  The mentality in Jax is different.  It's a market where the expectations are a little different and it will take some time and "re-education" to build up a true critical mass of people demanding an expensive urban living experience.  In Jax $1200 will get you a 1BR in the best, newest community with square footage, granite countertops, amenities, security, new appliances, convenience, etc etc only 5-15 minutes from downtown and right in the heart of the city's largest office/shopping submarket.  There's not as large of a crowd in Jax that will willingly forgo that option for less square footage, less luxury features, less convenience, no walkability (yet), which is the whole reason for being there, and in an area with a less than stellar image in the community.  True, many cities have this class of people in large quantities (I know in SF people my age will live out of their car for a while just to be there), but in Jax the climate and rental model is just different.

When I check online, $1200 will nearly get you into the Strand, which is about as nice as a rental community gets ANYWHERE.  Is $1200 achievable?  Yes.  Is it a walk in the park to ask Jacksonvillians for that for this project in this area?  Probably not.

Fingers crossed for the developers and for Jacksonville/Brooklyn, but let's be real here, the only reason this is happening is because there is an apartment bubble and it's the only thing you can get debt for nowadays (with many agencies having loosened their underwriting standards for multifamily).  My firm has a multifamily development site that we inherited in Jax as part of a portfolio.  We continued on with the developments in Raleigh and Miami, let go of Orlando, and will let go of Jax because the overall market is just terrible.

Lots of new construction in the uber popular southside that will be competition for the Brooklyn projects.  Same rent, but you get so much more.  For most it will be an easy decision that will likely not lead them to Brooklyn.

Agreed (for once)!

If you look a little farther into what's available; you'll find that there are virtually no, if any, one bedrooms or lofts available.  I hope Hallmark/MAA/Bristol has taken this into account when deciding the floor plan mix.  And I know, from shopping them, that they offer zero concessions on those units.

downtownjag

November 13, 2012, 01:39:41 PM
But I do think the decision to move to Riverside/SS may be a little harder than what you mentioned, if there's such thing as a sophisticated renter; I believe the one that spends +$1200 per month on an apartment is one.

They, in my opinion, may be more drawn to the uniqueness of the area, brand new YMCA on the other side of the road, and the non-chain dining options available in Riverside.

simms3

November 13, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
John Gorrie is a condo project, true, but if Delores lowers prices any further then she is doing community service.  She did not use any financing for the project and has the ability to sit on pricing until it comes up (if ever).  What's amazing is that nobody is apparently qualified for $100K home, or apparently thinks that is too much money!  Those condos are priced at about $150psf and are very well built with very good finishes in an actually decently walkable area.  If I were a young professional, I am, I'd rather live there than in Brooklyn!  Coffee shop, bakery, restaurants, bars all within walking distance in a hipster neighborhood where it's easy to bike around and cars understand that they're not the only ones on local roads.

Again, a sign that things are just a little different in Jax.  Give Brooklyn time, but don't expect great things in the short term (I'm sure the developers aren't...they've clearly proceeded with utmost caution).

If_I_Loved_you

November 13, 2012, 01:44:30 PM

The Strand
Jacksonville, Florida 32207 (0.93 miles)
Price: $1245-$2700 | Beds: 0 - 3


Bell Riverside
Jacksonville, Florida 32204 (2.13 miles)
Price: $1077-$2102 | Beds: 1 - 3

PeeJayEss

November 13, 2012, 01:47:01 PM
Lots of new construction in the uber popular southside that will be competition for the Brooklyn projects.  Same rent, but you get so much more.  For most it will be an easy decision that will likely not lead them to Brooklyn.

River view, riverwalk access, walking distance to work if you work on Riverside Ave, biking distance if you work downtown, easy access to all the cool, historic neighborhoods in town (save the beach) particularly the most up-and-coming one that you are adjacent to, biking distance to 3 breweries and some of the best, most original restaurants in town, an urban atmosphere, across the street from the Y, walking distance to all the paint stores your heart could desire  :P, and easy access to I-95 and I-10 so that you can get the heck out of this backwater ( :P again)? Not to over-apply lipstick, but I wouldn't say you get so much more on the Southside.

To trolleeyore's comments, Park street isn't ideal, but its far from dead. Jimmy Johns is, I believe, making money hand over fist, Two Doors Down is as well (Note: Whiteway is open for only lunch, is that in the "hood" as well?), there are several bars, several mechanics, and the aforementioned paint stores, and this is all in an area surrounded by interstates and covered in mostly cleared land.

simms3

November 13, 2012, 01:48:17 PM
They, in my opinion, may be more drawn to the uniqueness of the area, brand new YMCA on the other side of the road, and the non-chain dining options available in Riverside.

Not quite there yet.  It's hard, also, to "see" potential like sophisticated urban types and hipsters often do (great forecasters of the next neighborhoods) when there is NOTHING there, literally.  As someone already mentioned, one road is lined with retention ponds.  The main thoroughfare, Riverside, is a sterile highway with lights.  Nothing is walkable.  You're bounded on all sides by highway.  There are FIELDS instead of existing buildings.  A crop of palm trees near the Skyway maintenance shed.  The YMCA is years away and will still be a drive-up location (plus young people do not join the Y any more...since a long time ago).  I could go on.

It's a challenged neighborhood where even the most "forecaster" of personalities might have trouble seeing reason to flock there (that and the true urban hipster types don't live in sterile new stick apartment communities no matter how dressed up).  This will be filled with transient downtown workers who are in Jax for a year or two and need a quick and convenient place to live in the meantime (a place they can find on Forent.com).  A guy I know who went to school up north and has come back to Atlanta worked in the Federal Court in Jax as a clerk for a couple years.  That's your renter profile here.  Nothing special about it.

simms3

November 13, 2012, 01:50:38 PM

The Strand
Jacksonville, Florida 32207 (0.93 miles)
Price: $1245-$2700 | Beds: 0 - 3


Bell Riverside
Jacksonville, Florida 32204 (2.13 miles)
Price: $1077-$2102 | Beds: 1 - 3



Not *that* much of a difference considering the quality and location difference.  Plus even in other "cheap" southern cities like Nashville, Charlotte and Atlanta a building as high end as the Strand would start north of $2K and end north of $5K, literally double the price.  Many people coming to Jax from other cities know this and see a place like the Strand as a steal (I know I would!).

If_I_Loved_you

November 13, 2012, 01:59:22 PM

The Strand
Jacksonville, Florida 32207 (0.93 miles)
Price: $1245-$2700 | Beds: 0 - 3


Bell Riverside
Jacksonville, Florida 32204 (2.13 miles)
Price: $1077-$2102 | Beds: 1 - 3



Not *that* much of a difference considering the quality and location difference.  Plus even in other "cheap" southern cities like Nashville, Charlotte and Atlanta a building as high end as the Strand would start north of $2K and end north of $5K, literally double the price.  Many people coming to Jax from other cities know this and see a place like the Strand as a steal (I know I would!).
I was surprised that Bell Riverside went for so much. Sure the ones on the St Johns River should be high. But I would hope the ones facing Riverside Ave would be cheaper? The Strand would be my choice if I had just arrived in Jacksonville as a single person or a married couple without children. With all the space that is opened and ready to be used in the Brooklyn area I hope that 220 Riverside works out and more apartments/condos/retail/restaurants move to this area in the near future.

Tacachale

November 13, 2012, 02:07:38 PM
Sigh. Trolls gotta troll, I guess. The rest of us can rest assured that the owners will find a way to make this work, or they wouldn't even bother. If that means lowering the rent for the short term to fill the units, or offering some other deal, I'm sure they'd do that rather than go bankrupt. I also imagine they're not looking at this as a short-term investment that will ripen immediately. 5 years, 10 years, 20 years down the road the area will look totally different, and these owners will have gotten in on the ground floor.

downtownjag

November 13, 2012, 02:10:27 PM
They, in my opinion, may be more drawn to the uniqueness of the area, brand new YMCA on the other side of the road, and the non-chain dining options available in Riverside.

Not quite there yet.  It's hard, also, to "see" potential like sophisticated urban types and hipsters often do (great forecasters of the next neighborhoods) when there is NOTHING there, literally.  As someone already mentioned, one road is lined with retention ponds.  The main thoroughfare, Riverside, is a sterile highway with lights.  Nothing is walkable.  You're bounded on all sides by highway.  There are FIELDS instead of existing buildings.  A crop of palm trees near the Skyway maintenance shed.  The YMCA is years away and will still be a drive-up location (plus young people do not join the Y any more...since a long time ago).  I could go on.

It's a challenged neighborhood where even the most "forecaster" of personalities might have trouble seeing reason to flock there (that and the true urban hipster types don't live in sterile new stick apartment communities no matter how dressed up).  This will be filled with transient downtown workers who are in Jax for a year or two and need a quick and convenient place to live in the meantime (a place they can find on Forent.com).  A guy I know who went to school up north and has come back to Atlanta worked in the Federal Court in Jax as a clerk for a couple years.  That's your renter profile here.  Nothing special about it.

I'm sure we could both go on and on about it; I personally doubt MAA would get involved without confidence in the project, and I actually live here so maybe I know something about the area too ;-).  I can agree that the "hipster" crowd often times leads the charge for the re-development of an area, but these are high-end apartments; not delapidated houses in need of a creative touch where value will later be discovered by house-flippers and developers.  I agree it could be transient workers of Downtown, but also people who work at Baptist Downtown, Fidelity, LPS, Haskell... etc.

Let's side table our disagreement & reconvene when the project is moving along.

thelakelander

November 13, 2012, 03:02:47 PM
I went to the ground breaking today and was very impressed with what is planned.  I'm most excited about Unity Plaza, which will be programmed continuously year round and modeled after Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland.  220 Riverside is expected to be completed in August 2014.  The development next door is expected to come before council soon and it also has a 2014 completion date.  For those of you who are concerned about Brooklyn, literally half of the neighborhood will be these two projects.  Assuming both are on time and schedule, the vibe of that entire stretch of Riverside Avenue will be different in two years.

fsujax

November 13, 2012, 03:04:20 PM
It will be great Lake, and they will not have any problem leasing them.

thelakelander

November 13, 2012, 03:08:38 PM
I don't think they'll have any problem.  If anything, I believe there is a pent up demand because urban Jacksonville really doesn't offer much of this product type compared to similar sized communities.

simms3

November 13, 2012, 03:15:09 PM
Sigh. Trolls gotta troll, I guess. The rest of us can rest assured that the owners will find a way to make this work, or they wouldn't even bother. If that means lowering the rent for the short term to fill the units, or offering some other deal, I'm sure they'd do that rather than go bankrupt. I also imagine they're not looking at this as a short-term investment that will ripen immediately. 5 years, 10 years, 20 years down the road the area will look totally different, and these owners will have gotten in on the ground floor.

I can rest assured nobody developing this project is looking to hold past 5 years (this is not a term balance sheet loan or a Fannie arrangement...it's a construction loan, LoL, and even with a Fannie arrangement with a 4 year lockout they would have a much earlier exit).  I can also agree and add to your point that most new apartments in sunbelt markets, especially in testy submarkets, open with major concessions.  They probably underwrote 2 years of concessions with major burnoff after that point.

If they're holding past 3-4 years (which given the market is a high probability), they'll need to place a term loan on this (which unless they want to hold for an additional 5 years past stabilization, 2-3 years post delivery, 18 months post groundbreaking, they'll go the traditional route).  The new traditional loan will be sized based on debt yield, which is the new gold standard of underwriting and is based on NOI.  If they don't stabilize to 95+% occupancy AND burn off all concessions in 2-3 years at the time they will be trying to secure said loan (a loan with flexible prepayment options I'm sure, which means no agency or HUD), then they'll be stuck with a loss (or a major resize, which will require a huge paydown of construction loan out of pocket and a slashing of their IRR if that's the return they are going for - probably is considering the risk, market, product and new construction).

So given the momentous task the developers have of trying something new in Jax, the riskiest of all markets, leasing this baby up for sticker shock prices in a shoddy area within 2 years AND burning off concessions either for a sale or to put a perm on the asset, and given historical performance of Jax apartments (especially boundary pushers like the infill developed in Riverside and downtown), then Yeah...someone IS losing sleep over this deal!!!!

____________________________________________________________

Being the only new construction in the area, it's likely that its selling point will be free cable/wi-fi - maybe even a new flatscreen to come with apartment, etc etc.  Vintage deals in cheaper sunbelt metros are also finding that they must offer more services to stay relevant and compete with newer product and keep their rent growth or maybe even just to keep rents stable.

Don't discount me as a troll because I tend to offer devil's advocate POV.  I work on a multifamily deal and on plenty of other large deals for a big time investment shop, and I travel frequently to various markets and live in a larger market.  I look at places like Brooklyn from a "fresh" outsider's pair of eyes.  Seasoned "been there done that" transients in Jax will not find the area urban, hip, exciting or walkable even when built out.  I can go on about the many reasons that is so, but nobody will believe me.  There are more promising developable infill areas in Jax that are not getting any attention right now.

To your average Jax native who has not yet ventured out of the Jax bubble and has not experienced real city life, Brooklyn still won't be appealing as an exciting new urban experience.  For that everyone knows you go to Riverside or downtown.  For all others who could care less (most in Jax and in actuality most young people despite the perpetuated myth that all young people demand to be in the action), the ability to leave your parents' nest and either BUY a house or rent a luxury apartment on the SS is most appealing.

Obviously the lender and the parties involved have confidence in the project, but let's face reality: this project has been 6-7 years in the making and only now in this time of near-bubble multifamily lending environment can the lender find it in themselves to fit this baby within their underwriting standards.  If this were a 2008 built deal sold through CMBS, it would still probably fall in the riskier category placing it in a lower tranche, mmhmm.

CityLife

November 13, 2012, 03:18:34 PM
How many employees of Fidelity, BCBS, etc work right there on Riverside? I imagine there will be some major demand from them. They would basically save about $100-$200 in commuting costs monthly,  have less wear and tear/mileage on the cars, and about 5 hours less of commuting per week vs. the Southside which Simms claims is so attractive. Subtract the financial and intangible benefits from walking to work vs. driving and 220 is far more attractive than living on the SS. Especially when you factor in proximity to DT and Riverside, which by and large many (if not most) prefer over the SS.

tufsu1

November 13, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
I went to the ground breaking today and was very impressed with what is planned.  I'm most excited about Unity Plaza, which will be programmed continuously year round and modeled after Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland.  220 Riverside is expected to be completed in August 2014. 

yeah...the difference is that Portland's IS downtown....this is just one more programmed space (like the Landing courtyard) which could dilute from attempts to reinvigorate Hemming Plaza

duvaldude08

November 13, 2012, 03:23:23 PM
I work on the southbank. Before I bought my house on the WESTSIDE, I was agressively trying to find something like near downtown, and found nothing. If I were still in the apartment hunt, I would be jumping on this right now. There is demand for this type of housing downtown. People just want something affordable to rent, versus a condo you have to pay half you life savings as a down payment and go broke trying to pay mortgage.

PeeJayEss

November 13, 2012, 03:30:56 PM
yeah...the difference is that Portland's IS downtown....this is just one more programmed space (like the Landing courtyard) which could dilute from attempts to reinvigorate Hemming Plaza

What "attempts" do you speak of? Is the park owner (city) actively trying to get this place programmed 365 days a year? DVI does some (Art Walk, Friday picnic), but what about the City or JAXPARKS? All they talk about is getting rid of the homeless. Its like free marketing for not going to Hemming. You can't even find an official schedule ofevents happening in Hemming, so how can you decide when to go there?

downtownjag

November 13, 2012, 03:31:20 PM
It will be great Lake, and they will not have any problem leasing them.

I'll be standing in line

Tacachale

November 13, 2012, 11:30:31 PM
Sigh. Trolls gotta troll, I guess. The rest of us can rest assured that the owners will find a way to make this work, or they wouldn't even bother. If that means lowering the rent for the short term to fill the units, or offering some other deal, I'm sure they'd do that rather than go bankrupt. I also imagine they're not looking at this as a short-term investment that will ripen immediately. 5 years, 10 years, 20 years down the road the area will look totally different, and these owners will have gotten in on the ground floor.

I can rest assured nobody developing this project is looking to hold past 5 years (this is not a term balance sheet loan or a Fannie arrangement...it's a construction loan, LoL, and even with a Fannie arrangement with a 4 year lockout they would have a much earlier exit).  I can also agree and add to your point that most new apartments in sunbelt markets, especially in testy submarkets, open with major concessions.  They probably underwrote 2 years of concessions with major burnoff after that point.

If they're holding past 3-4 years (which given the market is a high probability), they'll need to place a term loan on this (which unless they want to hold for an additional 5 years past stabilization, 2-3 years post delivery, 18 months post groundbreaking, they'll go the traditional route).  The new traditional loan will be sized based on debt yield, which is the new gold standard of underwriting and is based on NOI.  If they don't stabilize to 95+% occupancy AND burn off all concessions in 2-3 years at the time they will be trying to secure said loan (a loan with flexible prepayment options I'm sure, which means no agency or HUD), then they'll be stuck with a loss (or a major resize, which will require a huge paydown of construction loan out of pocket and a slashing of their IRR if that's the return they are going for - probably is considering the risk, market, product and new construction).

So given the momentous task the developers have of trying something new in Jax, the riskiest of all markets, leasing this baby up for sticker shock prices in a shoddy area within 2 years AND burning off concessions either for a sale or to put a perm on the asset, and given historical performance of Jax apartments (especially boundary pushers like the infill developed in Riverside and downtown), then Yeah...someone IS losing sleep over this deal!!!!

____________________________________________________________

Being the only new construction in the area, it's likely that its selling point will be free cable/wi-fi - maybe even a new flatscreen to come with apartment, etc etc.  Vintage deals in cheaper sunbelt metros are also finding that they must offer more services to stay relevant and compete with newer product and keep their rent growth or maybe even just to keep rents stable.

Don't discount me as a troll because I tend to offer devil's advocate POV.  I work on a multifamily deal and on plenty of other large deals for a big time investment shop, and I travel frequently to various markets and live in a larger market.  I look at places like Brooklyn from a "fresh" outsider's pair of eyes.  Seasoned "been there done that" transients in Jax will not find the area urban, hip, exciting or walkable even when built out.  I can go on about the many reasons that is so, but nobody will believe me.  There are more promising developable infill areas in Jax that are not getting any attention right now.

To your average Jax native who has not yet ventured out of the Jax bubble and has not experienced real city life, Brooklyn still won't be appealing as an exciting new urban experience.  For that everyone knows you go to Riverside or downtown.  For all others who could care less (most in Jax and in actuality most young people despite the perpetuated myth that all young people demand to be in the action), the ability to leave your parents' nest and either BUY a house or rent a luxury apartment on the SS is most appealing.

Obviously the lender and the parties involved have confidence in the project, but let's face reality: this project has been 6-7 years in the making and only now in this time of near-bubble multifamily lending environment can the lender find it in themselves to fit this baby within their underwriting standards.  If this were a 2008 built deal sold through CMBS, it would still probably fall in the riskier category placing it in a lower tranche, mmhmm.

Simms, I wasn't calling you a troll, I was referring to that troll jaxeeyore who was trolling before. Much of what you say makes sense; my point is that demand for apartments is clearly there, and I'm confident the owners will do what it takes to make the project work, including by tweaking the rates if necessary. And while the current state of the neighborhood may make the project seem dodgier currently, I expect the real payoff will be a few years down the road when the demand is finally met by this and similar projects.

thelakelander

November 13, 2012, 11:54:48 PM
I expect the payoff to come as soon as 2014.  It appears that 220 Riverside, Unity Plaza, and the Pope & Land development will be completed around the same time. Combined, they change transform the area between Park and Riverside Avenue, between Forest Street and downtown, by themselves.  What I'm hoping is that their construction will lead to additional projects in the area that utilize a mix of infill and adaptive reuse of existing area buildings.

simms3

November 14, 2012, 09:56:08 AM
Hopefully.  There is plenty along Park to make for a cool area with trendy restaurants, startup office space, and niche retail.  Unfortunately not a lot of workable land area in the 95/10/Acosta bound area, but I hope going forward net of the current developments, retention ponds, and YMCA redesign that future land use is maximized.

CityLife

November 14, 2012, 10:51:37 AM
How many employees of Fidelity, BCBS, etc work right there on Riverside? I imagine there will be some major demand from them. They would basically save about $100-$200 in commuting costs monthly,  have less wear and tear/mileage on the cars, and about 5 hours less of commuting per week vs. the Southside which Simms claims is so attractive. Subtract the financial and intangible benefits from walking to work vs. driving and 220 is far more attractive than living on the SS. Especially when you factor in proximity to DT and Riverside, which by and large many (if not most) prefer over the SS.

Another point related to this that I forgot to make, is that employers love it when their employees live in close proximity to the office. Generally, employees are more likely to work overtime or come in on the weekends for an hour or two if they live right around the corner, vs. a long commute. They are less likely to be late to work...and I would guess also happier. I know I'm jealous that my boss gets to go home on his lunch break every day, while I'm stuck going out to eat.

What does this mean for 220? It means that they can make some deals with the large employers on Riverside to encourage their employees to live there, which may even include financial incentives or bulk discounts. It also means that the area may become more attractive for new businesses/offices. I've mentioned before on here that office locations are primarily driven by executives and where they live/want to live, but having attractive housing for employees in proximity is a factor that does get taken into account.

FayeRealtor

November 14, 2012, 12:34:45 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation. 

Wacca Pilatka

November 14, 2012, 12:55:50 PM
We sure have a concentration of first-time posters trashing this project.

downtownjag

November 14, 2012, 12:58:57 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation. 

Seriously?  I think you're totally wrong here, which I do not say disrespectfully. 

downtownjag

November 14, 2012, 01:00:18 PM
We sure have a concentration of first-time posters trashing this project.

Very true.  I wonder if MAA/Hallmark/Bristol consulted with these experts before deciding on the project. 

fsujax

November 14, 2012, 01:25:49 PM
15% really? wow thats what they were saying when 11E and the Carling were being converted. Now you can't even get in without being on a waiting list. Some southside , virgin land developers are getting scared!

copperfiend

November 14, 2012, 01:28:29 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation. 

Another interesting first post.

Captain Zissou

November 14, 2012, 01:42:36 PM
It is my opinion that this area is perfect for mid/high density infill development.  The physical barriers that cut the neighborhood off from DT and Riverside help to increase the need for density and establish and increase the value of the projects that go in there.  Brooklyn can't get any bigger, so whatever the first 5 or 6 projects are to build on the land will have an unconquerable barrier to entry that will lock in the value of their investment for the near future.  The area north of park and east of Forest is largely vacant land that is zoned ROS.  In order to put anything on the land, properties will have to be combined into larger parcels for dense development.   

As the 3 or 4 large scale proposed projects are constructed, the percentage of the neighborhood that will become high end is 60%+.  There will be significant opportunities for occupants/owners of the northern portion of the neighborhood to sell their properties at a profit, as more investors will try to capitalize on the upward momentum of the neighborhood.  That will remove the few remaining seedy areas from the equation.  At that point, Annie Lytle will be the only run down area of the neighborhood.  I hope that at that point the city will be motivated to turn that property around. 

I think the development will have 40% under contract prior to the completion of construction.

thelakelander

November 14, 2012, 01:57:18 PM
We sure have a concentration of first-time posters trashing this project.

Very true.  I wonder if MAA/Hallmark/Bristol consulted with these experts before deciding on the project. 
Can't imagine a company like MAA putting up $40 million for this if they thought it was only going to have 15% occupancy.

Btw, I can afford $1,200 in rent and I'd be willing to pay that on Riverside Avenue moreso than in a random gated apartment community on Southside Boulevard.

Egodriver71

November 14, 2012, 02:28:29 PM
I'd have no problem paying $1200ish/month to live at 220 Riverside, IF, JTA would expand the Skyway to 5-points and have a station there at Forest St or Jackson St.

It would mean I could commute to my Southbank job without having to drive, ride a bus or ride a bicycle!!!

Places like Brooklyn can expand GREATLY if JTA would get of their a$$es about BRT.

simms3

November 14, 2012, 02:49:20 PM
It means that they can make some deals with the large employers on Riverside to encourage their employees to live there, which may even include financial incentives or bulk discounts. It also means that the area may become more attractive for new businesses/offices. I've mentioned before on here that office locations are primarily driven by executives and where they live/want to live, but having attractive housing for employees in proximity is a factor that does get taken into account.

Right on.  Preferred employer discount programs.  We have one with RTP employers for a multifamily development deal I work on in Raleigh.  There is a good and bad way to go about this as you don't want to attract a bunch of people here for just 1-2 years (people who *know* they'll be moving along soon).  These are discount hunters and at the first sign of a rate increase they're gone.  Of course these are the same people I earlier mentioned might look into living here, haha.

It is my opinion that this area is perfect for mid/high density infill development.  The physical barriers that cut the neighborhood off from DT and Riverside help to increase the need for density and establish and increase the value of the projects that go in there.  Brooklyn can't get any bigger, so whatever the first 5 or 6 projects are to build on the land will have an unconquerable barrier to entry that will lock in the value of their investment for the near future.  The area north of park and east of Forest is largely vacant land that is zoned ROS.  In order to put anything on the land, properties will have to be combined into larger parcels for dense development.   

As the 3 or 4 large scale proposed projects are constructed, the percentage of the neighborhood that will become high end is 60%+.  There will be significant opportunities for occupants/owners of the northern portion of the neighborhood to sell their properties at a profit, as more investors will try to capitalize on the upward momentum of the neighborhood.  That will remove the few remaining seedy areas from the equation.  At that point, Annie Lytle will be the only run down area of the neighborhood.  I hope that at that point the city will be motivated to turn that property around. 

I think the development will have 40% under contract prior to the completion of construction.

I would normally agree, but in this case I am holding a "we shall see" attitude with Brooklyn.  I'm all about "high barriers to entry", but in Brooklyn they aren't high-ish for the best of reasons.  I think the area is a little "too" cut off from other surrounding neighborhoods by large interstate highways on all sides.  That and even with the new developments/proposals, a lot of land is tied up in parking, and the city has further tied up a lot of land with its horrendous planning for the area and the FDOT 95/10 interchange support systems.  40% pre-leased would likely be unprecedented in Jacksonville, and many places, but that would be great.  If that happens I can assure you more intense development will SOON follow!  Currently a new high rise rental community near me is 15% pre-leased with an expected January opening, and it's in a much tighter, much stronger submarket within a much tighter, much stronger market.  Still, 15% pre-leased at rates supposedly 7% higher than underwritten is enough for the developer to duplicate the tower nearby with an early 2014 opening (about to break ground).

Captain Zissou

November 14, 2012, 03:00:16 PM
^ I don't know as much about what a good pre-lease rate would be, but based on the uniqueness of the product offering, the quality of the project (for the market), the urban location, and the potential for the neighborhood,  I see this project as being a pretty hot ticket.  My biggest hope is that this development receives a very positive response that spurs more development in the area. 

downtownjag

November 14, 2012, 03:04:43 PM
15% really? wow thats what they were saying when 11E and the Carling were being converted. Now you can't even get in without being on a waiting list. Some southside , virgin land developers are getting scared!

And 11E and Carling are in "high crime" areas... or so the uneducated say

simms3

November 14, 2012, 03:42:17 PM
^ I don't know as much about what a good pre-lease rate would be, but based on the uniqueness of the product offering, the quality of the project (for the market), the urban location, and the potential for the neighborhood,  I see this project as being a pretty hot ticket.  My biggest hope is that this development receives a very positive response that spurs more development in the area. 

One thing that could make it a hot ticket moreso than anything else is its appearance.  There is nothing in Jax that looks remotely like it.  We have built dozens of these things (look exactly the same with minor facade changes) here in Atlanta in the past 10-15 years and they have become really boring (I count no less than 10-15 UC right this minute).  Charlotte, Nashville and Raleigh are also building or have built dozens of these things...so Jax is joining the Sunbelt "hybrid" club...stacked garden style wrapped around a garage with a little bit of retail.  Just wait...you guys have 20 years ahead of you of seeing this thing duplicated over and over again.  It might be fascinating now, but in 10-20 years you'll be screaming for something different.

edjax

November 14, 2012, 04:49:43 PM
^^Cool story bro.  Thanks for the heads up on our development the next 20 years!!

Captain Zissou

November 14, 2012, 05:04:28 PM
I have been in Charlotte a few times lately and you're right that the 5 floor apartment building with retail on 35% of the bottom floor with a mostly hidden garage is somewhat ubiquitous in the outlying areas of uptown.  It still looks better than most of what we have here, but it's just a more evolved version of the same thing.  It's a proven winner and a cost effective way to go.  Don't kill me if my timeline is off, but a progression of Jax multifamily can be seen through;  Villas at St Johns, Tapestry Park, 5000 Town, now 220 Riverside.

Tacachale

November 14, 2012, 09:43:54 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

WTF is it about this project that's drawing single-purpose troll accounts to knock it on this site? It's especially amusing that they're using the same (dubious) points in different ways.

fsquid

November 15, 2012, 09:44:53 AM
I have been in Charlotte a few times lately and you're right that the 5 floor apartment building with retail on 35% of the bottom floor with a mostly hidden garage is somewhat ubiquitous in the outlying areas of uptown.  It still looks better than most of what we have here, but it's just a more evolved version of the same thing.  It's a proven winner and a cost effective way to go.  Don't kill me if my timeline is off, but a progression of Jax multifamily can be seen through;  Villas at St Johns, Tapestry Park, 5000 Town, now 220 Riverside.

I don't know if you've been in the area around Selwyn and Colony (maybe do a Google Street view), but that little area is like their own town now with those things.

CityLife

November 15, 2012, 10:00:30 AM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

WTF is it about this project that's drawing single-purpose troll accounts to knock it on this site? It's especially amusing that they're using the same (dubious) points in different ways.

A lot of people in this town, including developers, suburban homeowners, and business owners are threatened by quality urban infill in the urban core and they should be. Believe it or not, I even know a few people with interests in the urban core that were hoping some of the Brooklyn projects would never get built because they could potentially divert development away from their interests.

I really don't think people understand the potential ripple effects of a development like this. Like Simms said, this development is nothing innovative regionally or nationally, but in Jacksonville it can potentially be groundbreaking and spur a whole wave of similar projects. Urban living, whether it be at the Beach, Riverside, San Marco, or Downtown absolutely crushes suburban living in a lot of regards, especially for young people, and a lot of people are starting to realize that. The shift of young people to urban areas in Jax has been happening, but when it really takes off with developments like this, ballgame. Those with interests in maintaining the status quo are scared and should be.

I think in the next 5-10 years we will see a major vacuum open up between the urban core and St. Johns and Clay Counties. Those that want to live in suburban areas with good schools will still want to live in SJC, but those without kids and young people will want to live at the beach, Urban Core, or Town Center. This means a lot of places outside of this will be no mans land and turn into lower income areas. We've seen this happen quite a bit in the past few years, but it will accelerate even quicker if the urban core continues to take off. Obviously Deerwood, Deercreek, and other nice neighborhoods will stay nice, but they will become more and more surrounded by lower income areas. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Mandarin was the most mixed income area in all of Jacksonville in 10 years.

simms3

November 15, 2012, 10:28:58 AM
^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

stephendare

November 15, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

I have to disagree with you on the idea that this will 'always' be this way, Simms.

It has only been this way for about 60 years now, at least in the way that we all think about and understand suburbia---which is a relatively tiny amount of time compared to how long cities have been around.

Suburbs, as lovely and as celebrated as they are in some quarters are a bit like fat.  A little of it perhaps can be attractive.  But too much of it and the body will shut down.

They are just unsustainable, and I predict to you that within the next forty years they will either mostly been memory or reengineered by some technology which we do not presently posess.

CityLife

November 15, 2012, 11:05:40 AM
Simms, the SS encompasses a huge amount of land. To say it will always be happening is ridiculous. Sure pockets of it may be. Despite my distaste, Tinseltown and Town Center will remain popular. Especially with all the employers and UNF nearby. However, tell me why in 5 years anyone would choose to live at Beach and Kernan or Baymeadows when they can live at hotspots like the urban core, Town Center/Tinseltown,  the beach, or SJC for quality suburbia? They would do so primarily for affordability reasons, which is the beginning of those areas descent. When an area loses its place in the desirability hierarchy, it will naturally decline in value, which of course will then lead to other negatives.

Look at Arlington, look at Regency, look at Sunbeam Road, Losco Road, Old St. Augustine between San Jose and 295, Beach Blvd from east of St. Nicholas to Southside Blvd. These are all areas that have declined quite a bit in the past few years. They simply aren't as desirable as they used to be and it will only get worse, as the housing stock is less than impressive. As more people move to SJC (believe me its happening more than people realize) and the urban core, these areas will only decline further. Like I said there will be nice suburban parts of Jacksonville, but until the school system in Duval County gets fixed those areas will be SJC and to a lesser extent Fleming Island.

Have any empirical data or articles that say that the "trend" of young people moving back to cities is false? Because I haven't seen one and that isn't the case in Jacksonville. There IS a movement of people back to the urban core in Jax and it will only continue, which will have ripple effects. NE Fla has a finite amount of wealth and middle to upper income people. To suggest that when those middle and upper income folks move in the masses that the vacuum will be filled with others of similar standing is...well counter to what you have always preached about Jacksonville being a poor place.

PeeJayEss

November 15, 2012, 11:11:43 AM
^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

I don't understand why anyone would live that far out and not just pull the trigger and move to SJC. Maybe if you hate walking AND want bad schools. Based on these vague descriptions of "good" suburban sides of other towns, the Southside would be an exurb and Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc would be the suburbs. All of those areas are more urban than anything in Jax but DT and the Southbank. They are old suburbs, whereas Southside is the new suburb. Not a knock against living there one way or the other, but it doesn't compare to those other 'burbs.

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

The suburbs are not all that old a concept, so sweeping generalities about how most people will live there "always" smack of naivety. I don't think there was ever a huge population of people living in their cars. All the large cities have a range of housing options, many of which are quite affordable. NYC, for example, was not always so expensive. That too is a fairly recent development. Nonetheless, you can still live on the cheap there if you have to, even in Manhattan.

No one is asserting that young people never lived in urban areas before. What is unique is people that grew up in the burbs are moving into cities. Because the burbs aren't all that old, this is relatively new behavior, and it is interesting because it was their parents that grew up in the city and moved out to the burbs. Most of them will probably move back to the burbs to raise kids, but that doesn't mean its not still a significant trend.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

Captain Zissou

November 15, 2012, 11:52:10 AM
^JuTrying to get a more rounded view of the neighborhood, since we're now talking about Mandarin.  Add to or change what I've said here, because this is just coming from memory.. 

Mandarin used to be agriculture and huge estates that were really a rural area until the 50s or 60s. There are enormous Mansions on the river down off Beauclerc Road, Scott Mill, Mandarin Road, and others. The bulk of the neighborhood (huge) was largely just a land grab by profit minded developers that spread south during various boom periods.  I am sure there are mansions that date back to the early 20th century, but real movement to that area started in the early 60's, but picked up in the 70's for residential west of San Jose blvd.  East of San Jose started to develop with some middle class neighborhoods around Sunbeam and Old St Augustine early-mid 70s and spread rapidly south during the 80s and 90's to 295 and spread south of 295 during the boom.

Ocklawaha

November 15, 2012, 11:53:10 AM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

Here is a breakdown of all categories of crime within certain neighborhoods. If your contention is that people won't move to Brooklyn because of crime, then absolutely NOBODY should be living in Cedar Hills.

Start Date:   1/1/2012
End Date:   11/14/2012
Date Range:   319 days

Total number of reported crimes, all classes:

Baymeadows - 394
Arlington - 594
Avenues - 168
Mandarin - 205
Cedar Hills - 838
Ortega Hills - 367
San Marco - 232
Murray Hill - 806
Springfield - 734
BROOKLYN - 137

CityLife

November 15, 2012, 12:57:37 PM
^JuTrying to get a more rounded view of the neighborhood, since we're now talking about Mandarin.  Add to or change what I've said here, because this is just coming from memory.. 

Mandarin used to be agriculture and huge estates that were really a rural area until the 50s or 60s. There are enormous Mansions on the river down off Beauclerc Road, Scott Mill, Mandarin Road, and others. The bulk of the neighborhood (huge) was largely just a land grab by profit minded developers that spread south during various boom periods.  I am sure there are mansions that date back to the early 20th century, but real movement to that area started in the early 60's, but picked up in the 70's for residential west of San Jose blvd.  East of San Jose started to develop with some middle class neighborhoods around Sunbeam and Old St Augustine early-mid 70s and spread rapidly south during the 80s and 90's to 295 and spread south of 295 during the boom.

Sounds about right generally, except that there are quite a few 70's/80's neighborhoods outside of the areas you mentioned. A good portion of the area north of Loretto, east of San Jose, south of 295, and west of Old St. Augustine was built in that era. There is a lot of crappy housing stock in that area, along with some sub-par multi-family. There is also a lot of mediocre to poor housing stock south of Old St. Augustine and east of Hood Landing. I know Mandarin fairly decently and I'd guess that >50% of the area east of San Jose and South of Sunbeam is made up of poor housing stock from the 70's/80's or shoddy multi-family. One of Mandarin's biggest issues going forward isn't just the poor housing stock, its that there will be little to no value in tearing down the multi-family or poor housing stock for infill. In which case, those areas will only get worse.

carpnter

November 15, 2012, 01:45:55 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

Here is a breakdown of all categories of crime within certain neighborhoods. If your contention is that people won't move to Brooklyn because of crime, then absolutely NOBODY should be living in Cedar Hills.

Start Date:   1/1/2012
End Date:   11/14/2012
Date Range:   319 days

Total number of reported crimes, all classes:

Baymeadows - 394
Arlington - 594
Avenues - 168
Mandarin - 205
Cedar Hills - 838
Ortega Hills - 367
San Marco - 232
Murray Hill - 806
Springfield - 734
BROOKLYN - 137

How big is Brooklyn compared to the other areas? 

Jumpinjack

November 15, 2012, 01:50:19 PM
There's not much left of Brooklyn to judge by. All affordable residential housing is mostly gone.
Here is an excellent article from 2006 about what is left:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2006-sep-disappearing-brooklyn-saving-what

Captain Zissou

November 15, 2012, 01:52:55 PM
^ In terms of Residents, Brooklyn is tiny.  However, think of how many workers are in that area every day.  The only comperable area to that is Southpoint.  You're not going to get an accurate depiction of the crime level using per capita numbers.  The thousands of employees that work there and the number of clubs and eateries that bring people there distort the number you would get by doing a per capita comparrison.

CityLife

November 15, 2012, 01:58:03 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

Here is a breakdown of all categories of crime within certain neighborhoods. If your contention is that people won't move to Brooklyn because of crime, then absolutely NOBODY should be living in Cedar Hills.

Start Date:   1/1/2012
End Date:   11/14/2012
Date Range:   319 days

Total number of reported crimes, all classes:

Baymeadows - 394
Arlington - 594
Avenues - 168
Mandarin - 205
Cedar Hills - 838
Ortega Hills - 367
San Marco - 232
Murray Hill - 806
Springfield - 734
BROOKLYN - 137

How big is Brooklyn compared to the other areas?

Nowhere near the size or population of the other places listed. It also doesn't differentiate crime either. So some of those could be calls about loud music and some could be about murders. It doesn't even matter and probably didn't even warrant attention in the first place. There isn't a crime issue in Brooklyn and there certainly won't be when professionals start moving in. A couple of trolls who are likely afraid of Brooklyn and/or the urban core taking off spouted off some nonsense.

downtownjag

November 15, 2012, 03:13:35 PM
Well Pope and Land is still pushing forward, so I guess 220 Riverside's occupancy will now be around 7.5%

simms3

November 15, 2012, 03:31:01 PM
^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

I don't understand why anyone would live that far out and not just pull the trigger and move to SJC. Maybe if you hate walking AND want bad schools. Based on these vague descriptions of "good" suburban sides of other towns, the Southside would be an exurb and Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc would be the suburbs. All of those areas are more urban than anything in Jax but DT and the Southbank. They are old suburbs, whereas Southside is the new suburb. Not a knock against living there one way or the other, but it doesn't compare to those other 'burbs.

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

The suburbs are not all that old a concept, so sweeping generalities about how most people will live there "always" smack of naivety. I don't think there was ever a huge population of people living in their cars. All the large cities have a range of housing options, many of which are quite affordable. NYC, for example, was not always so expensive. That too is a fairly recent development. Nonetheless, you can still live on the cheap there if you have to, even in Manhattan.

No one is asserting that young people never lived in urban areas before. What is unique is people that grew up in the burbs are moving into cities. Because the burbs aren't all that old, this is relatively new behavior, and it is interesting because it was their parents that grew up in the city and moved out to the burbs. Most of them will probably move back to the burbs to raise kids, but that doesn't mean its not still a significant trend.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

LoL.  And before the 1900s the vast majority in this country lived in rural areas and we had an agrarian economy.  Of course things change, but I'm looking at "our" lifetime.

And yes, as someone who works in real estate in many cities on many different projects, it is an overhyped falsity that all Millennials wish to live in the city (the fact that most can't come close to affording it be damned).  Anyone in RE and demographics will confirm that for you "off the record".  It makes for a great story, though!  Like I said (and have said before on this forum) the difference is that every city's core now has a younger segment, not just the top 5 largest cities.  Whereas before if you were college educated in a certain profession, you *had* to move to NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc.  Now you can stay in your hometown, work a semi-similar job for less, AND live a semi-urban lifestyle for less.  This is simply a factor of the increase in secondary education in our country and the shift from manufacturing to services.  I know even back in the day "before young people moved to cities" both my parents lived in NYC, Miami and other cities post college before they married and settled down.  They must have been real odd!

And having been in 11E penthouse it is definitely luxurious in the loft apartment category.  I really don't think you're up to speed on just how expensive NYC, Boston and SF are.  You really can't find much at all under $2,000 in Manhattan and SF unless you're going to be living in a rough area in less than desirable conditions, and even "luxury" takes on a new meaning.  Whereas in Jax luxury implies all the bells and whistles, granite, stainless steel appliances, etc etc, in many cities luxury can be advertised if your faucet isn't leaky and your carpet isn't stained, ha.  In SF even top of the line apartments do not have central heating or air, and our $10K/mo corporate unit there is an outdated 60s 2 BR with mirrors covering the walls (no AC or heat either, though old floor heaters in the bathroom!).  We are leasing 2nd-4th floor apartments in Boston that are 285 SF for $1,500-$1,800/mo, and these are OLD (would be GHETTO in Jax).  Our "luxury" units there have a W/D, but no dishwasher...and sometimes only 1-2 coil stove.  At least the appliances are new, though hardly top of the line.  Granted they are in the Back Bay, which is appealing to wealthy college students and singles.

JeffreyS

November 15, 2012, 03:58:52 PM
Please allow me to put in my two cents as a Realtor.  Location is the primary driver of price/rent and this area is well known for it's high crime rate and seedy activities. (Review the JSO Crime Statistics for verification.) Tenants who can afford $1,200.00 a month will not accept Brooklyn.  I doubt if the property managers will be able to get more than 15% occupancy in the building in the first several years of operation.

Here is a breakdown of all categories of crime within certain neighborhoods. If your contention is that people won't move to Brooklyn because of crime, then absolutely NOBODY should be living in Cedar Hills.

Start Date:   1/1/2012
End Date:   11/14/2012
Date Range:   319 days

Total number of reported crimes, all classes:

Baymeadows - 394
Arlington - 594
Avenues - 168
Mandarin - 205
Cedar Hills - 838
Ortega Hills - 367
San Marco - 232
Murray Hill - 806
Springfield - 734
BROOKLYN - 137

How big is Brooklyn compared to the other areas?

Nowhere near the size or population of the other places listed. It also doesn't differentiate crime either. So some of those could be calls about loud music and some could be about murders. It doesn't even matter and probably didn't even warrant attention in the first place. There isn't a crime issue in Brooklyn and there certainly won't be when professionals start moving in. A couple of trolls who are likely afraid of Brooklyn and/or the urban core taking off spouted off some nonsense.
The current low population would only mean that whatever demographic rents in the new development will be the dominate one. So if the you are the one who wants to rent there you need to consider if you are the one you want to live near.

downtownjag

November 15, 2012, 04:17:23 PM
Could someone show/tell me where the Fresh Market is rumored to go?

thelakelander

November 15, 2012, 04:25:07 PM
Looking at the site plan below, it would most likely be the "Retail-A" anchor.  The "Retail-B" space looks like a CVS/Walgreens box. 

downtownjag

November 15, 2012, 04:54:56 PM
Thanks.  This is the Pope & Land project?

thelakelander

November 15, 2012, 05:04:31 PM
Yes.  The residential portion's design has already been approved by the DDRB.  The commercial portion has not.

simms3

November 15, 2012, 07:48:53 PM
The retail component is a separate Atlanta developer by the name of Jeff Fuqua who used to be associated with Sembler until last year when he broke off.  Fuqua has tried to be active in both Atlanta (where he's based) and Denver (where he went to college), and so far all of his proposals have stirred up community protests (and due to the unpopularity of one, the city council stopped it from happening).

I would keep an eye on this development to ensure that the retailer is indeed Fresh Market, or at least ends up FM, rather than say a Walmart Neighborhood Market.  Fuqua has a big relationship with Walmart, which is half of the basis of the protests in both Denver and Atlanta (he has been trying to "sneak" Walmarts into urban locations ever since he broke off from Sembler).  Keep in mind Sembler has also veered away from their model of the past 3-5 years of building "lifestyle" center type developments in favor of traditional strip suburban centers.

Pope & Land [the privately held land owner] has several partners in their residential deal (Lincoln Property Company [private], Mid-America Apartment Communities [public REIT], Hallmark Partners [local private developer...probably the fee party here]).  From what I do on a daily basis, I can only imagine what the "waterfall" looks like and I feel sorry for the analyst on this project who must build the waterfall from partnership docs and closing statements (considering the amount of cooks in the kitchen!).

thelakelander

November 15, 2012, 08:40:00 PM
What's wrong with a Walmart Neighborhood Market? How is it different from a typical Publix or Winn-Dixie?

JeffreyS

November 15, 2012, 10:18:12 PM
It would certainly be a step down from Fresh Market. The problem with WM is image for what will certainly be billed as a new hip area.

thelakelander

November 15, 2012, 10:55:17 PM
I'd still be happy with a Walmart Neighborhood Market over having no grocery store there.  I've been to a few and outside of Walmart owning them, I don't see why they are viewed so negatively here.

duvaldude08

November 16, 2012, 02:15:26 AM
I agree Lake.

downtownjag

November 16, 2012, 04:17:09 AM
Ehhh I really don't want a Walmart there at all, even a neighborhood concept. I do hear the FM is moving along; thanks for the heads up though Simms, all good info.

PeeJayEss

November 16, 2012, 05:05:27 PM
LoL.  And before the 1900s the vast majority in this country lived in rural areas and we had an agrarian economy.  Of course things change, but I'm looking at "our" lifetime.

So the entire population concentration of the nation flipped on its head in half a century's time, and somehow that proves your rule that demographics prevailing from the 70s to the 90s will continue in perpetuity? "Our lifetime" is expected to last through the middle of the century. You are sure there will be no changes between now and then?

And yes, as someone who works in real estate in many cities on many different projects, it is an overhyped falsity that all Millennials wish to live in the city (the fact that most can't come close to affording it be damned).  Anyone in RE and demographics will confirm that for you "off the record".  It makes for a great story, though!  Like I said (and have said before on this forum) the difference is that every city's core now has a younger segment, not just the top 5 largest cities.  Whereas before if you were college educated in a certain profession, you *had* to move to NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc.  Now you can stay in your hometown, work a semi-similar job for less, AND live a semi-urban lifestyle for less.  This is simply a factor of the increase in secondary education in our country and the shift from manufacturing to services.  I know even back in the day "before young people moved to cities" both my parents lived in NYC, Miami and other cities post college before they married and settled down.  They must have been real odd!

These are all arguments, some of them untrue, against claims that I did not make. An important piece of the information on your parents, however if we want to talk about my statement, would be where they grew up. My parents grew up in the city, lived in the city, and then moved to the burbs to have kids. I don't think this one piece of information proves a nationwide trend.

And having been in 11E penthouse it is definitely luxurious in the loft apartment category.  I really don't think you're up to speed on just how expensive NYC, Boston and SF are.  You really can't find much at all under $2,000 in Manhattan and SF unless you're going to be living in a rough area in less than desirable conditions, and even "luxury" takes on a new meaning.  Whereas in Jax luxury implies all the bells and whistles, granite, stainless steel appliances, etc etc, in many cities luxury can be advertised if your faucet isn't leaky and your carpet isn't stained, ha.  In SF even top of the line apartments do not have central heating or air, and our $10K/mo corporate unit there is an outdated 60s 2 BR with mirrors covering the walls (no AC or heat either, though old floor heaters in the bathroom!).  We are leasing 2nd-4th floor apartments in Boston that are 285 SF for $1,500-$1,800/mo, and these are OLD (would be GHETTO in Jax).  Our "luxury" units there have a W/D, but no dishwasher...and sometimes only 1-2 coil stove.  At least the appliances are new, though hardly top of the line.  Granted they are in the Back Bay, which is appealing to wealthy college students and singles.

That's a great deal of hyperbole and a short list of anecdotes to make a point about "all" the real estate in major cities. My statement was simply that your comparison of the two markets, which basically said the cost of utmost luxury in Jax would get you no more than a bed in a shelter in Manhattan, was silly.

BackinJax05

November 16, 2012, 08:08:41 PM
It will be the first 5 story wooden structure built in Jacksonville? Really? Can you explain that in a little more detail? I'm very curious.

Me too.  What would be the reason for using wood for this?  Cost??  This isn't going to be another Villas of St Johns is it??  I love that place, but some of the walls bow out at least 2 inches. 

I will say one thing. Of all the multi-family projects in the core, this is the only one with a pool that will actually get full sun.  It's facing south, not too tall of buildings on either side, brilliant!!  When I lived at the peninsula, if you weren't on the pool deck by 12:15 you missed the sun.

Wood? seriously?

Not only does wood warp & bow out, its termite food, and it burns rather quickly.

This place is a good idea. Using wood isnt. (So much for going "green")

JayBird

November 23, 2012, 01:25:42 PM
^^I see that happening potentially in Mandarin due to its isolation and location (still Duval County with mediocre schools compared to SJC just 5 min away, but at far reaches and not close to employment center), but the SS will always be a "happening" and desirable spot.  Even the densest of cities have their "good" suburban side of town (west of Boston, northwest of Detroit, north of Atlanta, south of Miami, north of Dallas, west of Houston, west of Philly, south of SF and east of Oakland, etc etc).

Despite what people want to preach and believe, the majority of people, young, middle-aged, and old will and still live in the suburbs, and it will always be that way.  The notion that all of a sudden young people are living in the city for the first time is false.  The only difference is that now young people don't have to go live in their car in NYC or SF to be "in" the city and can find microcosms of city life within their own hometowns for much less.  A young person in Jax can rent a "Penthouse" with luxury in 11 East for less than it would cost to rent a room in an ok area of Manhattan or SF.  Still, even in Jax given the lower salaries, $1200+ rent is a big step and definitely puts you in the 1-3% range, and so even most in Jax won't be able to afford urban living there...in steps the suburbs where most live and will always live.

The suburbs are not all that old a concept, so sweeping generalities about how most people will live there "always" smack of naivety. I don't think there was ever a huge population of people living in their cars. All the large cities have a range of housing options, many of which are quite affordable. NYC, for example, was not always so expensive. That too is a fairly recent development. Nonetheless, you can still live on the cheap there if you have to, even in Manhattan.

No one is asserting that young people never lived in urban areas before. What is unique is people that grew up in the burbs are moving into cities. Because the burbs aren't all that old, this is relatively new behavior, and it is interesting because it was their parents that grew up in the city and moved out to the burbs. Most of them will probably move back to the burbs to raise kids, but that doesn't mean its not still a significant trend.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

LoL.  And before the 1900s the vast majority in this country lived in rural areas and we had an agrarian economy.  Of course things change, but I'm looking at "our" lifetime.

And yes, as someone who works in real estate in many cities on many different projects, it is an overhyped falsity that all Millennials wish to live in the city (the fact that most can't come close to affording it be damned).  Anyone in RE and demographics will confirm that for you "off the record".  It makes for a great story, though!  Like I said (and have said before on this forum) the difference is that every city's core now has a younger segment, not just the top 5 largest cities.  Whereas before if you were college educated in a certain profession, you *had* to move to NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc.  Now you can stay in your hometown, work a semi-similar job for less, AND live a semi-urban lifestyle for less.  This is simply a factor of the increase in secondary education in our country and the shift from manufacturing to services.  I know even back in the day "before young people moved to cities" both my parents lived in NYC, Miami and other cities post college before they married and settled down.  They must have been real odd!

And having been in 11E penthouse it is definitely luxurious in the loft apartment category.  I really don't think you're up to speed on just how expensive NYC, Boston and SF are.  You really can't find much at all under $2,000 in Manhattan and SF unless you're going to be living in a rough area in less than desirable conditions, and even "luxury" takes on a new meaning.  Whereas in Jax luxury implies all the bells and whistles, granite, stainless steel appliances, etc etc, in many cities luxury can be advertised if your faucet isn't leaky and your carpet isn't stained, ha.  In SF even top of the line apartments do not have central heating or air, and our $10K/mo corporate unit there is an outdated 60s 2 BR with mirrors covering the walls (no AC or heat either, though old floor heaters in the bathroom!).  We are leasing 2nd-4th floor apartments in Boston that are 285 SF for $1,500-$1,800/mo, and these are OLD (would be GHETTO in Jax).  Our "luxury" units there have a W/D, but no dishwasher...and sometimes only 1-2 coil stove.  At least the appliances are new, though hardly top of the line.  Granted they are in the Back Bay, which is appealing to wealthy college students and singles.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

tufsu1

November 23, 2012, 03:15:21 PM
^ maybe so, but Jax. isn't Manhattan...$1500 (the likely price for 3bdr units) may be doable here, but 1 bdr units for anything over $1000 are going to be a tough sell....frankly, I have a hard time understanding why folks like Simms spend upwards of $2000 a month for rent in cities like Atlanta

PeeJayEss

November 23, 2012, 04:09:54 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

Please explain the difference between Jax's and NYC's definition of luxury

I said "its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month." You'll note that I did not say anything about luxury, size, floor, etc. I did say you could find a place in any part of the island for that price, and I stand by that. I did not say, and this seems to be how you and Simms are taking it, that you could get any place in NYC for under $2000, simply that you could get a place. And it would not be a slum, let's be serious. Now if you would like to explain what "Jax luxury" is and how it differs from "NYC luxury," then we can investigate this $2350 (pretty specific!) claim.

If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax...(to co-opt your indignant hesitation)...ummm...yea. Otherwise, the rest of what you said was, in fact, agreeing with my contention that there is a demand for these places in the core.

Spence

November 23, 2012, 09:40:34 PM
Question.
Concrete walls?
or wood frame?

thelakelander

November 23, 2012, 10:09:47 PM
^I believe this project will be a wood frame structure.

Ocklawaha

November 23, 2012, 10:19:31 PM
My daughter has a Manhattan apartment which is quite old, has 2 bedrooms (what Jacksonville would sell as walk-in-closets) and not much else and pays around $2,000 a month.  She sub rents one tiny bedroom for $1,200 a month to a girl she knew from Orlando.

NY and JAX? I love JAX but not even close Jack! Hell, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Washington, Philadelphia or Boston are not close either. We compare nicely with downtown Medellin, Colombia, where the rental rates for a high rise is on par with The Strand.  Medellin's advantage is if one is willing to use the incredible Metro, you can cut a luxury high rise down into the mid hundred's, USD $. I have Colombian family in Miami and their apartment payments are rapidly out pacing Jacksonville.

DEEP DEUCE in OKC might be a fair comparison, here's a tad of their advertisement.

Quote
"Deep Deuce at Bricktown, the soul of Deep Deuce. A rejuvenation is taking place... to the way it was, the way it should be. A melting pot of entertainment, commerce, and living welcomes you to a historic backdrop in the heart of Oklahoma City.It's Deep Deuce... it's urban, it's convenient, and all that jazz."

APARTMENTS-MONTHLY RENT-DEPOSIT-BATH-SQ FOOTAGE
 1 Bedroom $665 - $1125........$100........ 1........ 515 - 826
 2 Bedroom $910 - $1375........$200........ 2........ 974 - 1253
 3 Bedroom $1130 - $1550......$200........ 2........ 1276

Ocklawaha

November 23, 2012, 10:29:13 PM
^I believe this project will be a wood frame structure.

Quote
Faulkner said the wood-frame structure would be the first five-story wooden structure built in Jacksonville and the material was chosen to control the cost of the development.

So should we read with wood frame with exterior stucco? Block? Brick? Or are we talking about painted wood surfaces?

thelakelander

November 23, 2012, 10:35:41 PM
Appears to be a mix of stucco and metal for the exterior.



JayBird

November 24, 2012, 12:09:14 AM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Jax can support the same rental rates as NYC or SF, nor do we think a Penthouse ($1800/month rent, btw) at 11E is the absolute lap of luxury (your quotation of luxury seems to indicate that your readers have a feeble understanding of luxury, as opposed to your refined self). NYC is more expensive, no doubt, but its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month. You can find a pretty nice place with that in any part of the city, and you'd probably have a proper doorman, and some legitimate retail options under you. The difference is, in Jax, there are much fewer available, and a demand for more. and plenty of people can, and will, afford it.

Ummm ... PeeJay ... No.  I have to side with Simms on that one I live in Manhattan, and umm no.  Nothing even near Jax's idea of luxury can be attained for less than $2350 ... and that is a steal.  What 11E Forsyth Penthouse is offering, would be in the mid-$3,000's to start in a not so great neighborhood and only go from there. 

And yes, there is demand.  Several friends of mine now live in the Strand, after being on waiting lists for months!  I know three couples that are cannot wait to get into 220 Riverside, and I have sat many times at Kickbacks and listened to numerous people complain about the lack of housing in Jax's DT.  I firmly believe the market is there, it is just waiting for someone to take the risk, build it and others will see and follow.

Please explain the difference between Jax's and NYC's definition of luxury

I said "its silly to suggest you can't find a place in Manhattan for under $2000/month." You'll note that I did not say anything about luxury, size, floor, etc. I did say you could find a place in any part of the island for that price, and I stand by that. I did not say, and this seems to be how you and Simms are taking it, that you could get any place in NYC for under $2000, simply that you could get a place. And it would not be a slum, let's be serious. Now if you would like to explain what "Jax luxury" is and how it differs from "NYC luxury," then we can investigate this $2350 (pretty specific!) claim.

If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax...(to co-opt your indignant hesitation)...ummm...yea. Otherwise, the rest of what you said was, in fact, agreeing with my contention that there is a demand for these places in the core.

True you and I agree on market being there because I know that market is there.  College grads 26-34 (not statistic people, just from my social circle) want to be in urban area.  suburbs are viewed as 'where you go when you grow up and start a family' i.e. kids.  Now that is not is fact, just my opinion from the groups I hang out with, but I believe firmly market exists to support much more Brooklyn/core residences.

As for luxury, yes you did not say that but you did say "pretty nice place" which through simms post I probably convoluted into 'luxury'.  Did not mean to put words in your mouth.  But that simply is not true.  One great thing about Jax is the ability to rent a one bedroom and not require a roommate.   In NYC unless you are making top salary, it is unheard of not to have a roommate.  The $2350 is the price of a very close match to 11E penthouse, it is the Mott Towers in the Bronx (not Manhattan but you can get there in one subway stop which in real estate qualifies for for Manhattan) and it is through Housing Authority (yes, Section 8 subsidized) for a family of at least 5 persons.  So to say you can find something "nice" for under $2000 in Manhattan ... in order to be true that would require roommate or a 300-450 sq ft space that you share the bathroom down the hall with floor neighbors in Alphabet City, washington heights or ingleside.  Even Harlem has premiums now.  I have an apartment in Murray Hill (midtown), 8th floor one bedroom and rent out living room as convertible bedroom to roommate and I am on lower end of spectrum in area and pay $2765 just to occupy space.  Utils not included.  And that is bargain I have people trying to get apps into my building all the time because that is cheap!  Once again, NYC cannot even compare to Jax.  So before even begin comparing ideas of luxury, you would first have to understand that the levels of housing in NYC, from studios to 3 BR convertibles are very different than the residence options in Jax.

Also, as a side note "ummm ..." is not hesitation.  I am from that pesky Y generation and the world of facebook twitter and texting has taught us that is how to express sarcasm or amazement in others, pause in speech.  I was only expressing my shock that one would think that when NYC and Tokyo have been known worldwide for their high housing costs for quite some time now, that one would not even make such a comment.  Because it is so well known, that makes other points you make seem invalid when they aren't.  Born and raised in Jersey when I came to Florida I was amazed at how cheap housing was in June 2003 when I bought in Eagle Harbor on Fleming Island where I still live and claim as my official residence even though lately work has kept in NYC a lot.  Not trying to be rude, just explaining.

JayBird

November 24, 2012, 12:26:32 AM
Oh and as completely different side note, take a trip to NYC it is simply an amazing city that is constantly changing.  However you will notice that outside of upper level hotels, Upper East Side Co-ops and designer clothing stores the "doorman" has gone the way of the elevator attendent.  About three to five years ago that service job was passed off to front desk security and now it truly is fading away.  Which is sad because NYC is highly social, but with the times of smartphones and social networking, the doorman/security guard/front desk attendent was sometimes you're only real human interaction outside of work.  They became sort of like extended family members for those that had family afar.   Such is progress I guess.

PeeJayEss

November 24, 2012, 05:57:17 PM
As for luxury, yes you did not say that but you did say "pretty nice place" which through simms post I probably convoluted into 'luxury'.  Did not mean to put words in your mouth.  But that simply is not true.  One great thing about Jax is the ability to rent a one bedroom and not require a roommate.   In NYC unless you are making top salary, it is unheard of not to have a roommate.  The $2350 is the price of a very close match to 11E penthouse, it is the Mott Towers in the Bronx (not Manhattan but you can get there in one subway stop which in real estate qualifies for for Manhattan) and it is through Housing Authority (yes, Section 8 subsidized) for a family of at least 5 persons.  So to say you can find something "nice" for under $2000 in Manhattan ... in order to be true that would require roommate or a 300-450 sq ft space that you share the bathroom down the hall with floor neighbors in Alphabet City, washington heights or ingleside.  Even Harlem has premiums now.  I have an apartment in Murray Hill (midtown), 8th floor one bedroom and rent out living room as convertible bedroom to roommate and I am on lower end of spectrum in area and pay $2765 just to occupy space.  Utils not included.  And that is bargain I have people trying to get apps into my building all the time because that is cheap!  Once again, NYC cannot even compare to Jax.  So before even begin comparing ideas of luxury, you would first have to understand that the levels of housing in NYC, from studios to 3 BR convertibles are very different than the residence options in Jax.

Also, as a side note "ummm ..." is not hesitation.  I am from that pesky Y generation and the world of facebook twitter and texting has taught us that is how to express sarcasm or amazement in others, pause in speech.  I was only expressing my shock that one would think that when NYC and Tokyo have been known worldwide for their high housing costs for quite some time now, that one would not even make such a comment.  Because it is so well known, that makes other points you make seem invalid when they aren't.  Born and raised in Jersey when I came to Florida I was amazed at how cheap housing was in June 2003 when I bought in Eagle Harbor on Fleming Island where I still live and claim as my official residence even though lately work has kept in NYC a lot.  Not trying to be rude, just explaining.

What comment? If your point is that NYC is more expensive than Jax, I'm not arguing with you (no one is). I'm not sure why you keep hammering away that fact. Almost everywhere is more expensive than Jax. My point, which is confirmed by the anecdote below, was that you could, in fact, get a place in Manhattan for $2000/month. I'm happy for you that you have a place that is more expensive than that, but that is not the point.

My daughter has a Manhattan apartment which is quite old, has 2 bedrooms (what Jacksonville would sell as walk-in-closets) and not much else and pays around $2,000 a month.  She sub rents one tiny bedroom for $1,200 a month to a girl she knew from Orlando.

If I ever take a trip outside of Jacksonville, I will have to check out this NYC place. It sounds great!

ben says

November 24, 2012, 07:41:06 PM
Appears to be a mix of stucco and metal for the exterior.



If it ends up looking 1/2 as good as that rendering, I'll be thrilled. Something tells me it wont  :(

I-10east

November 24, 2012, 10:08:33 PM
^^^What makes you think that it will look different?

Barnaby808

November 25, 2012, 02:31:52 PM
looks pretty awesome! When does construction start? Wonder if people will go back to calling the area "Brooklyn".

thelakelander

November 25, 2012, 02:33:07 PM
Already under construction now.

BackinJax05

November 28, 2012, 04:35:03 PM
^I believe this project will be a wood frame structure.

The pest control companies are gonna LOVE this place!  ;)

simms3

November 29, 2012, 09:29:56 AM
From an email this morning:

Quote
When H. Eric Bolton Jr., chairman and CEO of Mid-America Apartment Communities, looks at new supply of apartments across his markets, he also likes what he sees in the secondary markets.

“Within our large market segment of the portfolio, latest projections suggest a ratio of just over eight jobs to each new unit expected to be delivered next year, which is stronger than the last up-cycle we had over the 2004 to 2007 timeframe,” Bolton told investors in his firm's quarterly conference call. “Within our secondary market segment, the story is even better, with a job growth to new supply ratio projected to be just over 10-to-one in 2013.”

In large markets, Bolton said it's important to drill down into sub-market analysis in order to understand the threats presented by emerging new supply is likely to have at specific locations. He added in a number of the larger markets, new supply is more likely to create pressure on locations in more of the urban or core CBD submarkets.

“Within the secondary markets in general, we just don’t see much new permitting activity taking place and would expect that this segment of our portfolio is more likely to capture improving performance as compared to our large market segment towards the second half of next year,” he added.

As part of a strategy targeting sdecondary markets, Mid-America made its first move into the Kansas City, MO, market over the past year.

“As a consequence of our stepped-up efforts of recycling capital out of some lower margin older investments into higher margin newer investments it just so happens that a lot of our older properties are in some of our secondary and more tertiary markets, and so you’ll be seeing much more active recycling taking place in that particular component of the portfolio. Markets such as Kansas City, San Antonio, Charleston and Savannah, those are some of the secondary markets that we would like to continue to fill out.”

On the development side, Mid-America said it will be deploying capital in Little Rock,AR, Charleston, SC and Jacksonville, FL.

“You’re not going to see us do development in Dallas and Atlanta,” Bolton said. “We’ll let others do that... To the extent that we deploy capital for development, it will be a secondary market focus.”

JeffreyS

November 29, 2012, 03:12:13 PM
Sounds good but I don't really have a feel for what level of significance Mid-America brings.

Jason

November 30, 2012, 09:01:33 AM
^ Are they backing this project? or alluding to potential pending new development?

simms3

November 30, 2012, 09:59:24 AM
Wrong project I guess...they are a partner in the other multifamily deal going up next door.

Spence

December 08, 2012, 03:33:57 AM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5B36rrj1zc0" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/5B36rrj1zc0</a>

Wow
I wish we could do this to the old Southside JEA station and instead of what is planned for 220 Riverside

Jackson Square...is that permanent?
Again (may be the incorrect place for this question - but I've pissed of my brother and he will not answer me  - besides he is sleeping), WHERE DO SAN MARCO  residents pick up GROCERIES!?

thelakelander

December 08, 2012, 04:13:48 AM
Probably, the Winn-Dixie or Publix in Lakewood?

Tacachale

December 08, 2012, 09:18:33 AM
Probably, the Winn-Dixie or Publix in Lakewood?

Yep. Or hop over to the Riverside Publix if it's more convenient for you. Typically better beer selection there for instance.

dougskiles

December 08, 2012, 12:07:04 PM
Probably, the Winn-Dixie or Publix in Lakewood?

That and too much eating out.

Dog Walker

December 08, 2012, 12:29:30 PM
The closest Publix to San Marco is near the corner of Atlantic Blvd and University Blvd.  It has been enlarged and now takes up the entire plaza.

Tacachale

December 08, 2012, 07:11:42 PM
This talks about the Brooklyn projects. Anyone know more about the incentives mentioned at the end?

http://m.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2012-12-07/story/new-brooklyn-development-deal-advances-jacksonville-city-hall

thelakelander

December 08, 2012, 09:52:09 PM
The Hallmark incentives for 220 Riverside? $5 million in tax rebates over 20 years.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/07/24/mayor-brown-signs-off-on-220-riverside.html

Quote
The fact that the city financed incentives for that project as well has fueled comments by some critics.

“The idea behind incentives is it kick-starts development in an area,” said John Winkler, one of several people who spoke against the legislation at a public hearing last week. “Here we are sort of doubling the project and increasing the amount of redevelopment going on in Brooklyn.”

Isn't this the point of incentives?  Is Winkler against redevelopment in Brooklyn?

duvaldude08

December 09, 2012, 05:34:16 PM
The Hallmark incentives for 220 Riverside? $5 million in tax rebates over 20 years.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/07/24/mayor-brown-signs-off-on-220-riverside.html

Quote
The fact that the city financed incentives for that project as well has fueled comments by some critics.

“The idea behind incentives is it kick-starts development in an area,” said John Winkler, one of several people who spoke against the legislation at a public hearing last week. “Here we are sort of doubling the project and increasing the amount of redevelopment going on in Brooklyn.”

Isn't this the point of incentives?  Is Winkler against redevelopment in Brooklyn?

I dont understand why anyone would be against development any in or around our downtown. Its not like these are some pie in the sky, 50 floor highrise conde dream project. They are just freaking apartments and a damn store. Its funny nobody 'debates" about money being spent on the southside... humm

Tacachale

December 09, 2012, 06:57:03 PM
Winkler seems to be the president of the anti-tax group Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County. They speak out fairly regularly against incentives and spending on stuff like this (yes, including on the Southside). Sounds like the journalist was just seeking a contrasting viewpoint.

thelakelander

December 09, 2012, 09:05:18 PM
I never heard them speak out to the widening of Butler Boulevard, the construction of SR 9B or the Outer Beltway. 

Spence

December 10, 2012, 12:44:00 AM
Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.

I care not if the "store" is a fresh market or a newer wally world concept.

I just find it ridiculous that some will clamour to turn dirt with a photog and golden shovel in hand to make a buck because as we all are experiencing, "nothing transcends the mighty dollar".

I am happy that this new housing development in "brooklyn" will have a grocery close enough so that new prospective residents might be more quickly sold on the idea of living near our Downtown, it just still boggles my mind that RAP isn't literally screaming for streetcar!

I understand holding patterns and engineered data, but some enhancements help most everyone.

Can anyone please opine regarding the sense (if any) behind extending the Skyway overhead toward BCBS, when the maintenance yard is the closest we see to at-grade?

Isn't 220 Riverside at least somewhat more than ideal for a streetcar connection?

duvaldude08

December 10, 2012, 01:52:14 AM
Quote

Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.



I think this remains to be seen. Has anyone confirmed that its wood?The rendering it looks like stucco? I just dont see anyone building apartments out of wood. Just wouldnt make sense.

ben says

December 10, 2012, 06:50:38 AM
Quote

Please pardon any rudeness perceived,
however i DO speak out against these residential dwellings being constricted of wood.



I think this remains to be seen. Has anyone confirmed that its wood?The rendering it looks like stucco? I just dont see anyone building apartments out of wood. Just wouldnt make sense.

Drive down Jtb.  Wood structured apts going up at the town center

Ocklawaha

December 10, 2012, 01:09:31 PM
Can anyone please opine regarding the sense (if any) behind extending the Skyway overhead toward BCBS, when the maintenance yard is the closest we see to at-grade?

Isn't 220 Riverside at least somewhat more than ideal for a streetcar connection?

Eventual extension of the Skyway to BCBS makes sense for a couple of reasons. The FACT that the streetcar is likely to turn down Forest Street between either Park or Myrtle (though I prefer Myrtle) means that people riding the streetcar and wanting access to the Southbank, the Brooklyn projects, Everbank or the government center around Hemming Plaza, could easily change at Riverside and Forest to the Skyway.

As for 220 Riverside, a streetcar on Park would be in it's back yard, the other larger development would have streetcar at it's front door if the streetcar uses Park. Otherwise the Skyway having a station at the car barns, and another at Riverside and Forest with an option for yet another somewhere in between, makes the Skyway pretty ideal for a short extension.

Frankly, if the Skyway EVER reached 1. The Stadiums, 2. Shands/VA,  3. Forest and Riverside,  4. San Marco at Atlantic and maybe 5. The farmers market, I would then throw away the shovel and declare the project FINISHED.

Today the Skyway is all exits and no entrances, it can take you from nothing to nowhere, but at least you can't get to anything in between.

fsujax

December 10, 2012, 01:11:00 PM
Bob, who do you envision the Skyway getting to the Farmers Market? dont you think a streetcar would better serve that area?

thelakelander

December 10, 2012, 03:21:42 PM
Assuming the S-Line is rebuilt for some form of commuter rail, you'll need a grade separated crossing for a streetcar to access the farmer's market.  With that said, I'm still of the opinion that both a skyway extension to Forest and a streetcar in the same vicinity, connecting DT with Riverside may be overkill at this point.  I wouldn't promote such a project unless there were several other fixed transit corridors in various parts of the city already operational or under construction.

Ocklawaha

December 10, 2012, 03:28:48 PM
FSUJAX, Check out the aerial views. The Skyway could go due west of it's current terminus at the Jacksonville Terminal. Under the I95 viaduct and up and over the rail yards means the extension of the route would be short and direct.

As you know from our on-line discussions the Skyway's great weakness is that it is all exits and no entries, a farmers market station would tap the entire Woodstock Park area.

Streetcar from Water to Lee to Bay to Myrtle and hence into Riverside sets up Durkeeville for a future car line north along Myrtle. They would share an interchange at the Jacksonville Terminal.

To get streetcar into the Farmers Market would require a line up Myrtle and west on Beaver, there would be considerable expense in going up and over the Beaver Street Viaduct, (the original viaduct had streetcar tracks in it).  Both the Streetcar and the Skyway should run through the length of downtown using different routes. As it is today, it's a long hot walk from Central Station to the Police Station or Maxwell House.

Since the city went ahead with the ill advised Skyway (one I would NEVER have supported) we should seek to add another 4 miles of track to make it a fully functional downtown distributor system and a compliment to our streetcars. Each mode has it's own strong points and going up and over Honeymoon Yard/TTX instead of a roundabout via Myrtle and Beaver.   

I agree with Lake that we should focus on routes with no current service, I'd suggest the 'S' line, Streetcar from Newnan to King Street in Riverside, and Skyway east to the stadium and south into San Marco at Atlantic, as a phase one master plan.

Spence

December 12, 2012, 01:49:07 AM
^^^
Thanks Ock!
so logical

ProjectMaximus

December 13, 2013, 03:29:57 AM
Interesting to look back and see all the speculation and anticipation from a year ago. I wonder if the excitement has stemmed a bit or if it's still growing as we sit here partially through the renaissance.

Cummer Museum Renovation - Complete
Unity Plaza - 50%
220 Riverside - 50%
Shoppes on Riverside  - Initial Construction Stage
Brooklyn Riverside - Initial Construction Stage
YMCA - Initial Construction Stage
Riverside Dog Park - in limbo?

From an email this morning:

Quote
When H. Eric Bolton Jr., chairman and CEO of Mid-America Apartment Communities, looks at new supply of apartments across his markets, he also likes what he sees in the secondary markets.

“Within our large market segment of the portfolio, latest projections suggest a ratio of just over eight jobs to each new unit expected to be delivered next year, which is stronger than the last up-cycle we had over the 2004 to 2007 timeframe,” Bolton told investors in his firm's quarterly conference call. “Within our secondary market segment, the story is even better, with a job growth to new supply ratio projected to be just over 10-to-one in 2013.”

In large markets, Bolton said it's important to drill down into sub-market analysis in order to understand the threats presented by emerging new supply is likely to have at specific locations. He added in a number of the larger markets, new supply is more likely to create pressure on locations in more of the urban or core CBD submarkets.

“Within the secondary markets in general, we just don’t see much new permitting activity taking place and would expect that this segment of our portfolio is more likely to capture improving performance as compared to our large market segment towards the second half of next year,” he added.

As part of a strategy targeting sdecondary markets, Mid-America made its first move into the Kansas City, MO, market over the past year.

“As a consequence of our stepped-up efforts of recycling capital out of some lower margin older investments into higher margin newer investments it just so happens that a lot of our older properties are in some of our secondary and more tertiary markets, and so you’ll be seeing much more active recycling taking place in that particular component of the portfolio. Markets such as Kansas City, San Antonio, Charleston and Savannah, those are some of the secondary markets that we would like to continue to fill out.”

On the development side, Mid-America said it will be deploying capital in Little Rock,AR, Charleston, SC and Jacksonville, FL.

“You’re not going to see us do development in Dallas and Atlanta,” Bolton said. “We’ll let others do that... To the extent that we deploy capital for development, it will be a secondary market focus.”

I guess it is Mid-America after all?
http://www.maac.com/MAA-Community-Sites/Florida/Jacksonville/220-Riverside.aspx

Found one strange tidbit on that website (either they have an inside tip or they are sorely mistaken, lol) under "Community Features" it says
Quote
Just blocks from the Convention Center, home of the Jacksonville Barracudas
http://www.maac.com/MAA-Community-Sites/Florida/Jacksonville/220-Riverside/220-Riverside%20Community%20Features.aspx

Noone

December 13, 2013, 06:06:28 AM
Interesting to look back and see all the speculation and anticipation from a year ago. I wonder if the excitement has stemmed a bit or if it's still growing as we sit here partially through the renaissance.

Cummer Museum Renovation - Complete
Unity Plaza - 50%
220 Riverside - 50%
Shoppes on Riverside  - Initial Construction Stage
Brooklyn Riverside - Initial Construction Stage
YMCA - Initial Construction Stage
Riverside Dog Park - in limbo?



PM, nice list just wanted to add these observations to what has happened and what is occurring.

Cummer Museum- Did they take advantage of an opportunity to access this from the River? An opportunity LOST.

Unity Plaza- Celebration of a unique retention pond. Nothing wrong with that.

YMCA- Kayak logo at Sydney Geffen park? Expanded access to the River?

thelakelander

December 13, 2013, 06:26:00 AM
Interesting to look back and see all the speculation and anticipation from a year ago. I wonder if the excitement has stemmed a bit or if it's still growing as we sit here partially through the renaissance.

Cummer Museum Renovation - Complete
Unity Plaza - 50%
220 Riverside - 50%
Shoppes on Riverside  - Initial Construction Stage
Brooklyn Riverside - Initial Construction Stage
YMCA - Initial Construction Stage
Riverside Dog Park - in limbo?

The excitement is still there and that's a pretty good ratio of proposed projects finding a way off the paper into reality. However, new construction takes time. It will be another year before these projects are complete and even then, it's only the beginning.

Charles Hunter

December 13, 2013, 06:48:21 AM
Maybe the reference to the Barracudas was meant to be to the Sharks.  Their offices are in the Convention Center building.

acme54321

December 13, 2013, 06:54:49 AM
LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Barracudas

Charles Hunter

December 13, 2013, 07:19:09 AM
Thanks!  I thought I remembered them as a former team here!

fieldafm

December 13, 2013, 08:17:06 AM
The Jacksonville Stingrays (a minor league basketball team) used to have games at the Prime Osborne (as well as the Colliseum and even at one point... Christ the King's gym in arlington).

mtraininjax

December 13, 2013, 08:28:33 AM
I have a question about 220 Riverside. Someone asked me at a holiday party where the amphitheater is going to be. Is it there at Forest and Riverside in that giant  pond or somewhere else? Where does Jen Jones plan to have the 200+ events every year?

TIA.

Dog Walker

December 13, 2013, 11:02:59 AM
The amphitheater will be facing onto the pond towards Forest Street, will have fountains and some sort of sculpture on the island.  There was a rendering of it somewhere here on this forum, but I can't find it.

ProjectMaximus

December 13, 2013, 06:22:40 PM
LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Barracudas

Yeah, and it was also the name of our minor league basketball team back in the 90s. I actually went to a game or two as a kid.

Interesting to look back and see all the speculation and anticipation from a year ago. I wonder if the excitement has stemmed a bit or if it's still growing as we sit here partially through the renaissance.

Cummer Museum Renovation - Complete
Unity Plaza - 50%
220 Riverside - 50%
Shoppes on Riverside  - Initial Construction Stage
Brooklyn Riverside - Initial Construction Stage
YMCA - Initial Construction Stage
Riverside Dog Park - in limbo?

The excitement is still there and that's a pretty good ratio of proposed projects finding a way off the paper into reality. However, new construction takes time. It will be another year before these projects are complete and even then, it's only the beginning.

I agree…but I'm curious if the excitement has waned or if the expectations of the area are still sky-high. I for one agree that this neighborhood has tremendous potential, but I wonder whether there will be a delay to the Brooklyn Renaissance after this flurry of development, particularly if the rental rates aren't through the roof and JTA never comes through with a skyway extension or streetcar in the next decade.
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