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Under the guise of the Hemming Plaza Subcommittee, Councilman Don Redman is urging the Mayor to immediately remove tables and chairs from Hemming Plaza.
History has proven that removing amenities doesn't produce the solution Councilman Redman desires. Instead, it makes downtown a little worse. An example of what Councilman Redman proposes took place in San Francisco's United Nations Plaza a decade ago.
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San Francisco city planners are now working on plans that could reintroduce some outdoor seating along Market Street, the city’s major thoroughfare, from Civic Center to the Embarcadero. Granite benches were removed from Market Street in the 1990s after business owners complained about homeless people, according to a 2010 study.full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/us/in-san-francisco-a-push-for-public-benches.html
Neil Hrushowy, an urban designer for the city who is working on the Market Street project, said that past planning based solely on “the fear of quote-unquote undesirables” was not good for urban design — and did not actually work.
“There is a pretty broad agreement that depriving the public of seating is not going to solve the problem of who has access to public spaces,” Mr. Hrushowy said. “The question is, how can we happily coexist?” Indeed, the homeless still hang out in United Nations Plaza, a 2.6-acre pedestrian mall whose benches were removed 10 years ago.
In early 2012, the subcommittee went as far as soliciting public input on what to do with the space in the form of a survey. When it came to the question of removing all tables and chairs from the park, 70% of the respondents were against the idea.
What to do with Hemming Plaza isn't a complicated issue. A brief summary of a few cost effective concepts to breathe life into the park was provided by Transform Jax earlier this year as an example.
Previous Metro Jacksonville Hemming Plaza Coverage
April 4, 2012 - Redeveloping Hemming Plaza
April 17, 2012 - Ten Principles for Creating A Successful Hemming Plaza
October 22, 2012 - Hemming Plaza to be Destroyed?
Looking to convert Hemming Plaza into a space that attracts people, the Hemming Plaza Subcommittee has continued to ignore the public's concerns about the Subcommittee's desire to remove benches, tables, and chairs in the park. Let's hope the Mayor's Office and the rest of the Council take a different approach with this public issue. If not, the future of downtown Jacksonville isn't as bright as many of us would like it to be.
Article by Ennis Davis
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joshuataylor
December 07, 2012, 05:24:50 AMWHEREAS, in order to completely rid Hemming Plaza of seating, the ledges surrounding the two fountains in the park must be removed, and the fountains filled in; and
WHEREAS, homeless individuals may also choose to sit on the smaller ledges of the planters, these too must be leveled and brought down to grade; and
WHEREAS, as the aforementioned poor might find respite by sitting on the ground, the square must be surrounded by fencing, and made accessible only to upstanding white citizens with good credit ratings and teeth corrected by braces and peroxide gels; now therefore
BE IT RESOLVED that I no longer wish to live in this backwards, shortsighted city which tries desperately to mask it's racism and poor problem solving skills behind a thin veneer of failed public policy.
gedo3
December 07, 2012, 07:20:48 AMHey, let's help the city make money! Yep...let's put parking meters on all the benches! (Yes, I am being facetious!) The chairs are not the problem. Figuring out what to do with the homeless and the derelicts is the problem. But it looks like the suggestion is the usual....do something dramatic. It doesn't have to work--or even deal with the real problem, but golly gee we tried--and isn't that what's important?! And then let's have another "blue ribbon" committee and long-term project and we can ignore any recommendations--and still have the same problems! Yeesh!
avonjax
December 07, 2012, 07:24:07 AMSo Redman thinks that removing the tables and chairs makes the park less desirable for undesirables. So I guess that leaves the park desirable to pigeons. Do we really have this many ignorant people in this city?
Bridges
December 07, 2012, 07:48:40 AMWe must destroy the plaza in order to save it!
avonjax
December 07, 2012, 07:50:51 AMMakes sense to me. Just look around downtown. That philosophy has worked so well so far don't you think? Razing everything thing has worked wonders. We can now apply that to Hemming.
sheclown
December 07, 2012, 08:26:22 AMridiculous.
mbwright
December 07, 2012, 08:32:29 AMDestroy it and make it another parking lot.
Maybe Redman could get a bus and take all of the homeless and undesirables to the edg of town.
Redman can't be bothered with the FIND issues, since this is so important.
Sad that we have very smart folks providing solutions, with some fancy committee, that takes 2 years to study, document, and publish findings, only to be shelved, along with all of the other plans that were done years ago.
Dapperdan
December 07, 2012, 08:52:57 AMRedman is a complete tool.
tufsu1
December 07, 2012, 09:20:04 AMwhile generally he's not very helpful, redman is the #1 Council member when it comes to bicycling issues.
stephendare
December 07, 2012, 09:23:55 AMCharles Manson was considered a truly excellent wood carver.
tufsu1
December 07, 2012, 09:34:02 AMsee..I'm sure we can find positives about everyone...even you and I Stephen
stephendare
December 07, 2012, 09:36:32 AMIf_I_Loved_you
December 07, 2012, 09:54:42 AMBefore you remove the Hemming Plaza Tables & Chairs you better have that new City homeless day building up and running!
fsujax
December 07, 2012, 09:59:54 AMremoving tables and chairs will solve nothing. that waste of a park on Main St is a prime example.
jaxlore
December 07, 2012, 10:09:04 AMCan we please get rid of Don Redmond and the rest of these ridiculous city council members? When is his seat up?
If_I_Loved_you
December 07, 2012, 10:18:36 AMstephendare
December 07, 2012, 10:19:10 AMHe is term limited out in two years.
peestandingup
December 07, 2012, 10:31:00 AMBut can he count that high?
stephendare
December 07, 2012, 10:31:39 AMWe have Don Redman as a result of sour grapes between the previous councilperson, Suzanne Jenkins, and his competitor George Banks.
George and Don were running a tight race to replace Suzanne, and Suzanne was running a pretty vindictive campaign against Jerry Holland for Supervisor of Elections. (people associated with the campaign released a video showing Holland physically removing a ballot for a voter once it had already been put into the 'pile'---its technically illegal and Jerry could have faced jail time or disqualification if found guilty of 'tampering', but he was doing it at the voters request and in order to help her out so it came to nothing.)
The race itself looked like an attack on a popular member of First Baptist (holland) and ended up really bringing first Baptist out to the polls---there were a number of First Baptist candidates that year, and the cumulative effect was to bring out church affiliated voters.
No one really anticipated the effect of the Holland/Jenkins fight on getting out the FB vote, and most people expected George Banks to squeak by Redman since he had been a fairly popular man who had already served on a successful council term. (during the Delaney Years)
But when it came down to it, Suzanne had a natural antipathy for Banks for behind the scenes reasons. She also, however, did not want to see an ignoramus like Redman get into office.
She offered Banks support (against her natural inclinations) for his campaign on the proviso that he hire a council aide of her choosing if he got elected.
Banks refused, Suzanne asked her network of supporters to stay home (couldnt bring herself to endorse Redman) and as a result of her network staying home and the additional church voters citywide resulting from her fight with Holland, Redman carried the day.
He ran unopposed in the last election (for which I could kick myself, as I toyed with the idea of running against him)
But he is term limited by law, and will be unable to run for re election in the upcoming.
simms3
December 07, 2012, 10:33:07 AMI know what's happening here. Most of Jacksonville is doing relatively ok despite the horrible macro policies and macro leadership coming from downtown/the state. Apartments are going up on the SS, Riverside has become eclectic, artists are banding together at cork, San Marco is constantly improving, etc etc, yet downtown is literally getting worse and worse.
Why? Simply because the city council is located downtown. They feel like it's their turf to get involved in every goddamn decision, and *none* of them knows what the hell they are doing. I say in Jacksonville's particular case, due to the uniquely bad and uniquely corrupt leadership, it would be wise to move all these people to the westside or up by the airport. I promise you that you would see a quick and speedy turnaround.
The irony is that this [Hemming Plaza] will cost taxpayer money and at best not do a damn thing. The westsider tea party redneck types love folks like Redman, in the ultimate hypocrisy. The westsiders and so many people in outlying Jax are so unbelievably stupid, they deserve to work alongside Jacksonville's leaders...out there. Perhaps then the anti-tax, anti-wasteful spending crowd can see their "conservative" city leaders at work and the wool over their eyes may be lifted! Have Don Redman micromanage city initiatives and park planning and land use policy out on Lane Avenue!!!
Do people in this city even know they are going to spend millions of taxpayer dollars on a literally illegal GARAGE on the most prime piece of land in the city all so that a relatively inexperienced office tower private landlord won't benefit from two companies who gamed the idiots downtown by pretending they might move there?? Do the taxpayers out there even realize the city spent millions to clear a prime piece of dirt right on Main Street and build the world's worst park across from the city's $95MM investment in the Main Library, both of which have become homeless camps as a result? And now after the city spent millions of dollars to create a situation that has been detrimental to the city's own $95MM investment, the city is going to spend more money on a solution that won't work and *will* ruin one of the only public spaces in the city with potential to serve the public?
I know I'm not even mentioning the 800 lb gorilla in the room, the now internationally infamous courthouse debacle, which involved paying too much for too much land, cost overruns that would normally get people jailed, closing one of the few direct routes to the interstates and disrupting traffic, demolishing historic contributing structures for no reason, corruption in the bid process, being held hostage by a judge that demanded fancier furniture after all the budget heartache, the world's ugliest building, sidewalks to nowhere, the exclusion of a budget for landscaping, the wrecking of a cityscape, etc etc etc. That project alone was the result of more bad decisions, corruption and insultingly bad leadership that most cities fall victim to in an entire generation.
OMG WTF LOL ROFLMAO If anyone ever makes a documentary of city leadership in Jax and the people/voters that perpetuate it, it might be one of the most disturbing and sad documentaries of all time, right up there with Ghosts of Rwanda.
If_I_Loved_you
December 07, 2012, 11:18:06 AMBridges
December 07, 2012, 12:06:38 PMSo, this doesn't even go through council? They're directly requesting that the mayor approve this?
Seems like that could be advantageous to us right? The mayor is (supposedly) all about public/private partnerships, and not wasting money. Didn't we have a conversation about the cost to remove benches and amenities? And didn't MOCA and other people step up to help activate the plaza without public funds?
A little bit of awareness about the two to either the mayor or the media could possibly turn the anti-plaza sentiment around.
urbaknight
December 07, 2012, 12:18:29 PMIt worked during the Civil Rights Movement didn't it? We show the world how sucky and backwards our leaders really are. And hopefully that will embarrass them to the point where they're forced to change their ways.
Ethylene
December 07, 2012, 04:36:31 PMTouche! That documentary could be brilliant! What say ye film community? Who pray tell will take up that cause?
BackinJax05
December 07, 2012, 05:22:44 PMThe bums will still congregate there. They can still sit around the fountains. Save the tables & chairs. Get rid of the BUMS!
JeffreyS
December 07, 2012, 06:31:10 PMAgain we need to reiterate this effort is not about bums, homeless or attracting "choice" park users. It is about limiting the amount of Black people near city hall. That is why all of the reasoned arguments that prove making the park worse is not the way to make it better are disregarded. The real reason can't be said aloud by those supporting it so they have to ignore the facts to achieve their true end. I know this seems crazy considering one of the main proponents of destroying the park is herself an African American city councilwoman. However the truth is the truth and you have to face it to know how to win the day. If Redman isn't called on this the park will suffer the fate he has in store for it.
I fully expect most to be afraid to face this truth even angry that it is suggested with no proof even as the park is destroyed.
stephendare
December 07, 2012, 06:53:05 PMIf_I_Loved_you
December 07, 2012, 07:26:08 PMstephendare
December 07, 2012, 07:29:00 PMOcklawaha
December 07, 2012, 09:48:27 PMSorry to be a bit late on my comments but for the record, Charlie Manson was an accomplished guitarist and even played a few gigs with the Beach Boys.
Adolph Hitler was a fairly gifted artist and at one time made a living selling his paintings - he was also a courageous and decorated soldier. Hitler earned an Iron Cross 2ND Class in an engagement near Croonaert Wood, Wytschaete. During the fighting and under heavy fire, Hitler, stumbled across a seriously wounded officer left out in the open. Hitler recruited the assistance of a friend and together they saved the officers life.
Masaharu Homma, was named commander of the 43,110-man Imperial Japanese Army, 14Th Army and tasked with the invasion of the Philippines. He ordered his troops to treat the Filipinos not as enemies but as friends, and respect their customs and religion. Homma was also a well known poet and playwright, he also composed some of the songs popular in Imperial Japan. Homma went on becoming the overall commander of the Bataan Death March, he was shot as a war criminal after the surrender.
So yeah, if one looks deep enough, good things can be found in most anyone, but as the saying goes, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.
So it is with Don Redman and this insane bill before the City Council. We have a businessman/barber that fights for bicycling throughout the city then launches his own sneak attack on December 7 to carpet bomb Hemming Plaza. Historic irony!
ronchamblin
December 08, 2012, 01:10:03 AMIf_I_Loved_You..... building a day center makes sense to some degree, but doing both the table and chair removal "and" building the day center would make it almost impossible to gain any knowledge from any experiment with removing the tables and chairs. Frustration, and ignorance as to the dynamics of a system sometimes forces the problem solver to experiment. But the intelligent experimenter introduces only one variable at a time, else the cause of any solution remains forever unknown.
The removal of the tables and chairs must be called an experiment simply because nobody is sure that the removals will achieve the desired results. The real danger is that more variables will be introduced, such as beginning a day center, introducing aggressive programming, or jailing all the vagrants and homeless.
The introduction of the additional well-meaning variables, if performed within a year of removing the tables and chairs, will definitely contaminate the experiment, and could only give false or inaccurate assumptions to those making decisions about the effectiveness of the removals. Knowledge is needed on this continuing problem. Not more cloudy assumptions, which only allow all to go in circles, making desperate decisions to “do something”.
If other changes are made along with the removal of the tables and chairs, and if a reduction in the unwanted elements is finally achieved, how will anyone know of the cause of the reduction?
This contaminated and therefore useless experiment will then allow those pushing for the removals to boast of their success, and to erroneously assume that the cause of success was in fact the removal.
This erroneous assumption will also prevent anyone for arguing for installing these amenities in the future.
This is why most of us are arguing against destruction of the plaza, and for making positive moves, such as establishing a day center. Any fool can, because of ignorance and frustration, destroy. It is time to inject positives, or at least to avoid experiments so contaminated that they only cause further ignorance and error.
I predict that if the tables and chairs are removed, nobody will ever know if doing so accomplished the objective of reducing the population of undesirables.
Considering that there is most likely not enough patience or practicality of mind to control the experiment by doing nothing else regarding the plaza for a period of one year so that the real consequences of removing the tables and chairs can be determined, I vote for allowing these amenities to remain, thereby forcing thought and action for positive changes, such as a day center, and further programming…. along with other positives.
Spence
December 08, 2012, 02:15:54 AMLike you Mr.Chamblin, I like the scientific approach.
The one alteration to the hardscape, furnishings, and amenities I AM FOR, would be grassing the portion between the west edges of the fountain square and the east side of the shelter provided by the Skyway.
bioswale anyone? lawn games?
lawn seating for live music?
Play area for the families with children?
What of that great article showing different kinds of safe simple public restrooms?
I never saw one with a diaper changing fold out table top, a defnite necessity.
Certainly a (pair of??) pay per use washroom(S) with an automatic self cleaning system would be an enormous jump in the right direction, yes?
Who really cares if a homeless person gathers enough quid to actually [mis]USE the "selfcleaning" as a washdown?
strider
December 08, 2012, 07:09:57 AMYesterday, I was down at Hemming Plaza watching the children build projects with Home depot. I saw them sit with Santa and watched a video of the Mayor. About 3/4 of the park was being used for the activity. Which included three bus loads of kids from a local Team Up program. The remaining quarter had a few people sitting or standing and playing chess or just talking. The park was simply being what it is and always was supposed to be. A meeting place for the people of Jacksonville.
What will it be after Don Redman has his way?
kreger
December 08, 2012, 08:27:04 AMDon Redman can't even color his own hair correctly. Removing tables and benches won't do a thing for anybody. Just like his roots, the problem will still be there.
Jdog
December 08, 2012, 08:46:46 AMAn easy conversion to surface parking???
If_I_Loved_you
December 08, 2012, 10:11:54 AMOcklawaha
December 08, 2012, 10:23:02 PMHemming Plaza AFTER Redman
vicupstate
December 09, 2012, 10:02:04 AMBe careful Stephen. If she can exorcize demons from someone, she might can direct that same demon whom to invade next.
stephendare
December 09, 2012, 11:03:38 AMIf I loved you.
I am not afraid of Kimberly Daniels. I look forward to debating her, and even more forward to working in a capacity that can directly help the city get back on track, if I am fortunate enough to be elected.
Luckily Jacksonville likes colorful personalities in office (as evidenced by Ms. Daniels herself) and I am certainly happy with everything ive said on metrojacksonville. When I have been wrong, I have apologized and corrected myself, and I will certainly be inviting people to read what I have said.
Im not going to pretend to be something that Im not to run for office. It goes against my grain, and I think that most people would conclude that its a fools errand anyways. And in this case, I don't think I have to anyways
Vicupstate:
Lol, I grew up Pentecostal and Baptist. Lets see what Ole Demon Busting Daniels has got!
DDC
December 09, 2012, 11:27:19 AMJeffreyS, I ask this as respectfully as I know how. Are you serious? I am not saying that there is no racism in this city or even on the council. But do you really think it is just about Black people in the park in front of City Hall?
So if we managed to remove all the Black homeless, Black "bums", and Black "non-choice" park users, all the other daily non-Black users of the park would be fine?
Now if I have misunderstood your statement and seemed a bit snarky, please forgive me. I am just trying to understand your view.
sheclown
December 09, 2012, 03:06:44 PMHemming Plaza Friday evening:
Safe and happy event.
Intuition Ale Works
December 09, 2012, 05:21:49 PMThat's my wife and son in that picture!
duvaldude08
December 09, 2012, 05:31:17 PMThey have to remember to remove the steps in Hemming Plaza also. Those homeless vagrants might get crafty and find a place to sit. LOL
duvaldude08
December 09, 2012, 05:31:51 PMThats so funny! Nice looking family dude!
sheclown
December 09, 2012, 06:18:51 PMI hope they made it home alive from that scary place!
Pinky
December 09, 2012, 11:21:04 PMThis City Council is a joke. I really think it's time to turn out a few hundred shouting people when this comes for vote.
Programming is the answer here, this "burn the crops and salt the earth" strategy is absurd. Our city is being run by bigots and fools.
Noone
December 10, 2012, 05:49:48 AMThis resolution 2012-732 is a rallying cry for the state of Florida. Two days out and does anyone want to write a check for one dollar to 2009-442 the artificial reef TRUST fund? It's a TRUST fund. Not a slush fund. To be presented in two days at 9:30 am at the Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting. The Secret FIND list is to be announced.
The Public Trust in Jacksonville completely destroyed.
Legislative actions behind closed doors and not in the Sunshine.
Shipyards III
Golden parachutes for everyone.
Free Parking for everyone.
Will 2012-732 be pulled from the Tues. city council agenda?
DIA/CRA in the USA Board meeting Wend. They want an update on Hemming Plaza.
A new Authority.
Embrace it.
Or
It will Embrace us.
ronchamblin
December 10, 2012, 09:12:36 AMThe resolution is a foolish act of desperation. It is a flawed experiment as a result of frustration, with no possibility of accurately determining the results of it. The resolution is an act of destruction, offered by fools and bigots who don't have the creativity or discipline to perform positive acts having long term benefits for all concerned.
JeffreyS
December 10, 2012, 12:06:33 PMYou have not misunderstood. I hate to have to say it. This is about racism. I admit if it were the lowest of the down trodden Whites they would want them out and if it were all "Brooks Brothers" wearing Blacks they would want them to stay. However remember surveys of the crowd have shown it is not all homeless and the catch phrase at first was they did not want any "homogenous" group to dominate the park. Dog whistle for not wanting this homogenous group. I know we have to use common sense rather then proof but that is the way dog whistle politics work. They want to limit the crowd because too many Black people make some uncomfortable. The group is not a bunch of homeless, unemployed beggars so their must be something else that makes them undesirable. If it is a different characteristic let me know what I have missed.
Hemming Plaza Death walk of ......Death
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14765.msg273209.html#msg273209
Return to Hemming: Death Walk of Death 2: Trail of Death
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14872.msg275095.html#msg275095
urbaknight
December 10, 2012, 12:16:45 PMI like the idea of protesting to save Hemming Park. But I want to take it a step further by burning confederate flags and hanging kkk dolls from pools in effigy and parade them around the park as we insult council for their backward good ol boyism.
sheclown
December 10, 2012, 01:38:58 PMNoone
December 10, 2012, 05:24:02 PM^Thanks for the heads up. When was this noticed?
So 2012-732 could be pulled or altered just 7 hours prior to a full city council meeting?
here's another heads up, Atlantic Beach Master Plan for the Waterways is first on the agenda for the 9:30 am Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting on Wend. First time that I've heard about this.
Noone
December 11, 2012, 06:08:12 AM4 hours out 2012-732. Anyone going? If anyone comes will you consider bringing a check for a dollar for the Artificial Reef Trust Fund. 2009-442 established by ordinance. I'll present it tomorrow at the full Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting after the SECRET FIND list is discussed. 2012-402.
Make it out to the city of Jacksonville.
Write 2009-442 on the check.
Write Artificial Reef Trust Fund on the check. This is POSITIVE. Who wants to be a part of it?
2025 is 2012
Noone
December 11, 2012, 08:24:22 AM1 1/2 hours out. Anyone going?
2025 is 2012
Will anyone from the DIA be there?
Any news media outlet? Sign the sign in sheet to be part of this historic legislative action.
The Secret FIND list one day later.
I'm All In!
If_I_Loved_you
December 11, 2012, 09:02:16 AMfsquid
December 11, 2012, 09:03:23 AMwhatever drug Noone is on, I so want.
duvaldude08
December 11, 2012, 09:47:46 AMLuckily, the Mayors office has stated they are removing ANYTHING until complete due diligence has been done and they also want the DIA to look at the issue also. Atleast the Mayors office is not as crazy as we thought.
Tacachale
December 11, 2012, 11:25:46 AMIt's not hard to get that office to come out against taking action.
duvaldude08
December 11, 2012, 11:31:43 AMSo should that not come out against removing the furniture? Just curious (or were you being sarcastic?
Noone
December 11, 2012, 01:13:41 PMThe 10 am committee meeting on resolution 2012-732 was sparsely attended. There was a sign in sheet and the minutes from the last meeting on the table but NOT a copy of the resolution that is to be introduced at the full city council meeting tonight. One person during Public Comment asked was the meeting properly noticed.
An RFI is starting tomorrow and will conclude Jan. 10
There will now be a presentation to the DIA/CRA in the USA by this committee on 2012-732 at the Board meeting at 2 pm 1st floor of city hall. Lee and Redman should be able to attend. Guilliford was going to try.
So DIA we won't care what you have to say because we are doing it our way. There will also be a presentation for the BRANDING of our new city on the agenda for this meeting as well.
Why is this resolution being rushed through tonight?
During Public Comment I mentioned that Lee or Guilliford could make a motion to have this resolution deferred a cycle so to at least allow a Presentation to be made to the DIA. But they said No.
Remember the Secret FIND list is being announced tomorrow. The circumventing of ad valorem property tax revenue for the benefit of who through a restricted and back room process goes to WHO? Remember we left $500,000 on the table last year. And we now have 2012-402. The total absolute destruction of the Public Trust. Governor Scott, Please help!
Councilwoman Lee mentioned RAM 2011-364. 30 year lease for a buck a year.
Mentioned to the committee members 2010-856 and the transient vendor ban.
Its time to rip out the chairs.
2012 is 2025
tufsu1
December 11, 2012, 02:57:08 PMkeep in mind the resolution is only "urging" the Mayor to act....so it doesn't matter much what Council says....the person we need to lobby is the Mayor!
Tacachale
December 11, 2012, 03:30:43 PMI'm saying that if they do come out against removing the furniture, it's not necessarily due to due diligence.
sheclown
December 11, 2012, 04:00:00 PMgood news.
Noone
February 12, 2013, 06:50:10 AMHemming Plaza meeting this morning at 9 am 1st floor of city hall. How much did it cost to buy the furniture and have it installed originally? How much will it now cost to have it removed and relocated where?
Sounds like the Courthose Furniture II movie coming to a park near you.
Does anyone know of one bid for the slab of concrete for the Jacobs clock yet? Anyone going?
2025 is 2013