About The District

The Myrtle Avenue warehouse district is highlighted in yellow in this 1950s-era aerial.
Unlike Bay Street's industrial past, which was centered around wharfs and the maritime industry, the conglomeration of railroads heading into the Jacksonville Terminal resulted in Myrtle Avenue's rise as a district of heavy industry in the early 20th century. Myrtle Avenue would remain an industrial powerhouse until the closure of its two major railroad terminals, the removal of its rail line and changes in industrial building design in the late 20th century.
Exploring Myrtle Avenue

During Myrtle Avenue's industrial heyday, the S-Line weaved its way through the district, serving several factories, warehouses and lumber yards in the process. In 2008, the S-Line Urban Greenway was constructed within the former rail line's 60' Right-Of-Way. In an effort to bring revitalization back to the area and relieve future traffic congestion along I-95, Jacksonville's 2030 Mobility Plan and Fee will generate the capital necessary to implement an urban commuter rail line parallel to this greenway.
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The S-Line Urban Greenway is located in the Durkeeville and Springfield communities of Jacksonville. The trail currently consists of a short built section as well as an undeveloped corridor in an urban area that is ready for revitalization. The trail currently serves as a linear park but is not achieving its potential as a catalyst to improve the built environment. When trails are planned and developed, trail developers typically only consider the small 60-foot to 100-foot right-of-way where the trail is physically constructed, not necessarily its relationship with schools, parks, neighborhoods and other community assets surrounding the trail.http://community.railstotrails.org/blogs/trailblog/archive/tags/s-line/default.aspx
RTC will take this planning and analysis to another level by studying the area within a half-mile radius of the Jacksonville S-Line Urban Greenway. By locating community assets and building collaborations with community groups, we seek to increase the neighborhood's connection with the trail, as well as bring awareness to the health benefits of trails, with a focus on area youth.

The USPS demolished several blocks of the district's residences when it was constructed in 1975.

Now sitting across the street from the USPS's fenced property, this 1909-era building was erected as a small store to serve the neighborhood that once surrounded it.



United States Natural Resources (USNR)
USNR's Jacksonville plant originally started off as the Moore Dry Kiln Company in 1910.

The Moore Dry Kiln Company in 1965.

Inside the Moore Dry Kiln Company in 1965.
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USNRs hardwood lumber dry kilns represent an accumulation of knowledge and experience dating back to the 19th century when Lafayette Moore started manufacturing dry kilns in Jacksonville, Florida. Today our high-quality dry kilns can be found the world over, drying just about every species of wood imaginable, and doing it well. Come and see what the package kiln experts have to offer.http://www.coemfg.com/prod/line.asp?line_id=437

USNR's 1941 era buildings are still in operation.

Inside one of USNR's buildings along West State Street.

When the S-Line (an abandoned railroad) was in operation, street running took place on Wilcox and Blanche Streets to connect warehouses south of Beaver Street with the rail line, near Kings Road. Now a part of USNR's complex, Blanche Street's former rail spur can be seen beneath the pavement.

The Blanche Street rail spur terminated at this loading dock roughly two blocks south of Beaver Street.

Power & Pumps, Inc. started as a division of the nearby Moore Dry Kiln Company (now USNR) in 1938. It now has grown to occupy land that was once the site of a bakery owned by Flowers Baking Company.
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Power & Pumps, Inc. is driven by insight and inovation. Since our start in 1938 as an industrial distribution division of Moore Dry Kiln Company in Jacksonville, Florida, we have grown and adapted our business through a series of well-planned product and service expansions. Today, we meet the needs of our customers with synergetic, whole-system solutions that power beyond their expectations time and time again.http://www.powerandpumps.com/about_us.aspx
Power & Pumps is a leading distributor of power transmission products, pumps, electric motors and drives, and other related equipment from some of the industry's top manufacturers serving both the industrial and municipal water/waste water markets in Florida and Georgia.

The Big D Building Center has anchored the corner of Myrtle Avenue and Beaver Street since 1921.
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Building Strong from the Starthttp://bigdbuildingcenter.com/about-us.html
Big D Building Center was founded in 1921 by D. C. Dawkins and his wife. The company operated successfully as an architectural specialty supply house for twenty-five years. After World War II, we diversified into general building materials. By that time, three sons in the second generation were beginning to make their mark on the company through a new construction division, and built hundreds of homes in the Jacksonville area. The building supply company was used to supply materials to our own building operation as well as numerous other local builders and developers.
Growing Stronger
We narrowed our focus with the elimination of the home building division in 1970; and Big D Building Center began to steadily grow as a full line building materials supply company. Our success led to the creation of a roof truss and door division in 1972; and, in 1989, we introduced our first commercial and residential window line to the single and multi-family residential, industrial and commercial markets in North Florida and South Georgia.
The Future Looks Clear
Today, under third generation management, Big D Building Center remains committed to delivering quality windows, doors, and siding products to the area's home builders and homeowners. Our success is measured in the satisfaction of many of the largest builders in Northeast Florida, who have chosen Big D as their preferred window, door and siding provider; and by the continued support of countless homeowners who have engaged us to beautify their homes.
Let us show you why Big D Building Center has been a leading supplier to the construction industry in Jacksonville since 1921.

The remains of the Graham-Jones Paper Company. The building shown in this historical image was demolished in 2005.

The Graham-Jones Paper Company during better times.

Looking east down Logan Street from Blanche Street.

The Beaver Street Enterprise Center at Blanche and Beaver Streets.

Now the headquarters of Load King Manufacturing, this building was once a warehouse for the Winn & Lovett Grocery Company.
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Load King Manufacturing is the leading provider of turnkey modular stores to the foodservice industry in the United States. Beginning in 1995 with building and installing over 600 food courts for Winn-Dixie supermarkets through being the leading supplier of licensed stores for Starbucks and others, Load King has manufactured and installed more than 5,000 turnkey modular stores throughout the United States.http://loadking.com/about/
Load King has been family owned and operated since 1973. Our offices, manufacturing and warehousing facilities are all located in Jacksonville, Florida in several buildings comprising 300 thousand square feet. We have skilled workers and equipment for all fixture manufacturing including laminate and wood finished millwork, stainless steel counters, sinks, etc., steel framed cabinetry, solid surface counters, graphic elements and more. We are certified in the practice of Lean manufacturing assuring high quality and price competitiveness. Additionally, Load King is a cornerstone of the community in the economically troubled New Town section of Jacksonville. The company operates out of renovated circa 1919 buildings in an enterprise zone.


Edwards Ornamental Iron is a manufacturer of iron gates and railings.
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We are a full service provider of ornamental and architectural metal products. Our 31,000 square foot facility, located in Jacksonville, Florida includes a 5,000 square foot showroom to begin the design process. Here you can view samples of railings, gates, fences, security bars and doors, columns, furniture, garden ornaments and many types of miscellaneous items in steel, galvanized steel, stainless steel, aluminum and bronze. The design process will continue with photo albums, design catalogs, sample components and computer aided design software. Once a design is chosen we can prepare engineered shop drawings and proceed with fabrication. Next, the process moves into blasting, finishing, polishing, painting or powder coating, galvanizing or faux painting. The completed work is then installed in a professional manner. We will also coordinate our work with other trades, such as masonry, electrical and site work contractors.http://www.edwardsornamental.com/about.htm
In addition to all types of metalwork, we also install and service gate operating systems including hydraulic swing and slide gate operators, telephone entry systems, card readers, bar code scanners, keypads, infrared remotes, cameras, barrier arms and associated electronics to provide a complete entry system.


The former 35,000-square-foot Pittsburgh Plate Glass warehouse on Mrytle Avenue. Now known as PPG Industries, the Pittsburgh-based Fortune 500 company is a global supplier of paints, coatings, optical products, specialty materials, chemicals, glass and fiberglass.





Florida Machine & Foundry Company

Florida Machine & Foundry in 1965.
Constructed in 1953 and located at 1375 West Church Street, the vacant 192,600-square-foot industrial complex was once the home of the Florida Machine & Foundry Company. National Wire Southeast took over the plant in 2001.

Florida Machine & Foundry in 1965.

Florida Machine & Foundry's former machine shop.

Florida Machine & Foundry's former foundry.

Florida Machine & Foundry's former steel fabrication plant.

Inside Florida Machine & Foundry's former steel fabrication plant.

The Boone Terminal Warehouses were constructed in 1914. Now used for trucks, the loading docks in the image were originally designed for rail.

Shiloh Metropolitan Baptist Church.

The former A.L. Lewis Elementary School was constructed in 1925.

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Florida C. Dwight Memorial Playground is located in the La Villa section near downtown Jacksonville, just west of Interstate 95. The park comprised a portion of the Town of La Villa, which was subdivided and incorporated after the Civil War and remained independent until annexed by Jacksonville in 1887. After the City purchased the land in 1904, it became a park for the areas white residents known as La Villa Park. In 1929, the Citys second playground for African-American children was established there and named La Villa Playground. Florida Dwight (1886-1977), the playgrounds first recreation director, pioneered organized recreation for the Citys African-American community from 1918 (with the opening of Oakland Park) until her retirement in 1950. To honor her years of devoted work, the playground was renamed in 1983, and then designated a local historic landmark in 1995.http://www.coj.net/Departments/Recreation-and-Community-Services/Recreation-and-Community-Programming/Parks/Florida-C--Dwight-Memorial-Playground.aspx

Playground equipment at the Florida C. Dwight Memorial Playground with the Anointed Church of God in the background. The building was constructed in 1904 as the Zion Hope Baptist Church.

This collection of 1922-era brick buildings between Church and Duval Streets was once the May-Cohen's appliance and furniture warehouses.


West Duval Street is the last street with several residences still left standing in what was once known as LaVilla. In an ironic sense, it could be argued that the construction of Interstate 95 aided in its preservation, considering nearly everything on the downtown Jacksonville side of the highway has been demolished as a part of a failed urban renewal project. The majority of the homes are in the vicinity of 1,000 square feet and were constructed in 1909.


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Dignity U Wear was founded in April of 2000 in Jacksonville, Florida, by philanthropist and Holocaust survivor, Henri Landwirth. Henri knows what it means not to have clothes to be stripped of dignity and to give up all hope. He founded Dignity U Wear to create real change in the lives of children and adults in need. Change you can see. Change that restores broken spirits and restores hope, dignity and self-esteem. That is why we distribute only brand new clothes.http://www.dignityuwear.org/_about_us/
Dignity U Wear creates primary partnerships with key manufacturers, retailers and distributors which provide the new clothing, often overruns, excess inventory or seasonal items. These items are collected and warehoused. It then becomes our responsibility to give the brand new clothing to schools and nonprofit agencies serving those in need. These centers provide their list of needs and Dignity U Wear provides the clothing. Dignity U Wear specializes in soliciting, warehousing and distributing brand new clothing nationally, at no cost to recipients.


Beneath the poor stucco job is a structure that dates back to 1907.
Railway Express Agency
The Railway Express Agency (REA) was a major anchor and economic generator for the Myrtle Avenue district for several decades. Not surprisingly, Myrtle Avenue's decline as an industrial center parallels the decline of the REA, which closed for good in the early 1970s. Since this time, the REA's buildings have been demolished, tracks removed, and replaced with JTA's offices and bus maintenance operations.

The REA terminal can be seen in the upper center portion of the aerial above.
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In 1929 69 railroads created the Railway Express Agency. It was formed from famous companies such as the Wells Fargo Inc, American Express Co., and Southern Express Co. just to name a few. These latter companies were formed into the American Railway Express Co. during WWI while under federal government control. In 1920 its was deemed to split this company back to its original companies. It was then approved by the ICC to continue operation as the American Railway Express but urged the railroads to begin operating their own express business.http://www.jacksonvilleterminal.com/railway_express_agency.htm
Railway Express was much like todays UPS. Virtually everything was shipped by REA as LCL (less than car load) or a full carload. Fruit, fish, flowers, bicycles, coffins, zoo animals, pets, racehorses motion picture film, anything and everything. Most all passenger trains carried same form of Express. Most all-secondary trains were for the purpose of express service while the 1st class trains ran through, and they too may have some express business.
Jacksonville had a big roll with Railway Express. It is believed that Jacksonvilles facility was the largest in the country with a capacity for 250 cars. Equipped with a modern covered loading / unloading platform with multiple tracks, office space and loading/ unloading docks for trucks in front. A large storage yard was needed with around the clock terminal crews pulling and spotting express baggage, express box and express reefers.
REA as it later became to be known, was not limited to railroads. Air Service and Trucks also played part in their service. In the early 1960s Southern was the first railroad in our area to discontinue using REA. An attempt was made to replace Southerns system wide traffic by using trucks. In 1962 REA opened its last but modern terminal in Savannah Georgia served by the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line Railroads. REA also attempted using express containerized vans on flat cars. To compete with other modes of transportation REALCO was formed as a trailer leasing pool. Railway traffic had reduced system wide and by the early 1970s terminals were closed, Jacksonville was no exception and by 1975 REA was history.

The JTA has replaced the REA but the economic benefit has not been as influential for the surrounding district.

Located across from JTA's offices, McGill's Custom Counter Tops, Inc. has produced thousands of counter tops since 1986. The building housing the McGill operation was constructed in 1909.
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McGill's Custom Counter Tops Inc furnishes custom laminate counter tops to the USA. We make standard laminate as well as granite look counter tops. Our primary market is builders and contractors. We do sell directly to the DIY remodeler in the local Jacksonville, FL market. Our cabinet tops are constructed in our state of the art factory and shipped nationwide.http://www.mcgillscustomcountertops.com/

So close, yet so far away, this image captures how I-95 severs this district from the rest of the downtown it was once seamlessly connected with.



This leftover greenspace at Myrtle & Forsyth was once the site of an Armour & Company sausage factory. This industrial facility was demolished to make way for Interstate 95.

Armour & Company's sausage factory (now demolished) can be seen sandwiched between the REA terminal, Myrtle Avenue and the original I-95 viaduct.

A display of Armour & Company's products at a Jacksonville grocery store in 1949.

The Myrtle Avenue Subway was opened in 1909 to pedestrian, automobile and streetcar traffic.

Setting A Course For Future Redevelopment
The first thing we can do as a community is acknowledge that this area actually exists and that redevelopment is a realistic option. With that said, here are three things that could aid in the revitalization of this long overlooked and ignored urban district.
1. Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center TOD Planning

The former 1922-era Harnischfeger Corporation's (machinery manufacturer's) warehouse is within walking distance of the proposed JRTC via West Forsyth Street.
Considering the permanency of I-95, connectivity with downtown via Beaver, Church, Forsyth and Bay Streets, has to be improved. This image was taken in front of a vacant brick warehouse that was constructed in 1922. The other side of the overpass is the site of JTA's proposed Jacksonville Transportation Center (JTC). As JTA re-evaluates their plans for the JTC, extra attention should be paid to how the complex can help stimulate redevelopment in the surrounding area, including what exists on the west side of I-95.
In Columbus, Ohio, "The Cap" is an interesting example of re-connecting two urban neighborhoods together that had been cut off by the construction of an interstate. In 2002, this strip of buildings, containing restaurants and specialty retail, were erected over I-670, providing a seamless pedestrian connection between the city's convention center and the vibrant Short North District.
Today, whether walking or driving, few would even realize that this section of roadway is actually a bridge over the interstate. The structures, including this one housing the Hyde Park Prime Steakhouse, are reminiscent of the city's old Union Station, which was demolished during the urban renewal era.
2. North Corridor Commuter Rail

The remains of an S-Line rail spur in the center of Wilcox Street.
The concept of reestablishing passenger rail along the S-Line was first proposed by Metro Jacksonville in response to JTA's former plan to build dedicated busway along I-95, and for its economic potential in distressed neighborhoods like Myrtle Avenue. It's no secret that this district grew up around the S-Line's connectivity and died right along with its removal. Nationally, it's also no secret that local, fixed rail systems can attract as much as $14 in private sector development around their station sites for every $1 invested publicly. If Jacksonville follows with the 2030 Mobility Plan's S-Line rail project, Myrtle Avenue could become one of urban Jacksonville's hottest neighborhoods for redevelopment.

Austin's Saltillo District is enjoying an economic resurgence because of enhanced connectivity from the opening of that city's urban commuter rail line. Image by S-t-e-v-e-n at http://www.flickr.com/photos/s-t-e-v-e-n/4520747538/
3. Modification of Industrial Sanctuary Regulations

This scene on Vega Street illustrates how older industrial properties are becoming obsolete in today's world. In this particular case, the loading dock was designed for smaller trucks from a different era.
In 2007, the Jacksonville City Council passed an Industrial Land Preservation Bill intended to keep industrial land in the city from being rezoned for non-industrial uses. While this bill certainly has merit, it can be damaging for an increasingly obsolete industrial district such as Myrtle Avenue. Many of Myrtle Avenue's warehouses date back to the 1920s and were designed for the industries of that era. Today, many of the warehouses contain loading dock areas not designed for today's trucks as well as lower ceiling heights for manufacturing and distribution.
On the other hand, unique building construction (ex. brick walls, timber beams, large open floor areas, etc.) and cheap leasing rates has made buildings in neighborhoods like this suitable for several forms of adaptive reuse in cities across the country. Combining connectivity and land use modifications may be enough to tilt the redevelopment scales along Myrtle Avenue.

Kansas City's Crossroads District is an example of what Myrtle Avenue could become by strengthening the neighborhood's connectivity with downtown, and relaxing zoning regulations.
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The Crossroads Arts District is a historic neighborhood near downtown Kansas City, Missouri, USA, centered at approximately 19th Street and Baltimore Avenue, between Downtown's Central Business District and Crown Center. It is the city's main art gallery district and center for the visual arts. Dozens of galleries are located in its renovated warehouses and industrial buildings. It is also home to numerous restaurants (including one operated by Lidia Bastianich), housewares shops, architects, designers, an advertising agency, and other visual artists. The district also has several live music venues as well.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads,_Kansas_City
Numerous buildings in the neighborhood are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, including the TWA Corporate Headquarters' Building and the Western Auto Building.
The Kansas City Star's offices and printing facility are in Crossroads, as are The Pitch's.
360 Architecture and Barkley Inc. have their headquarters in Crossroads.
First Fridays
Art galleries generally open new shows on the first Friday of each month from 6 to 9 pm. This has become one of the region's most popular regular events as thousands of people flock to the Crossroads for gallery "open houses" amidst the Crossroads's unique atmosphere.
There are more than 60 galleries in the Crossroad's district, making it one of the five largest arts districts in the US.
Crossroads Music Festival
First held in late August 2005, the Crossroads Music Festival is an annual event organized by Spice of Life Productions, which features local music artists. The 2005 event was held at Grinder's Sculpture Park, located at 18th Street and Locust Street. In addition to concert performances, offerings include short films by local independent filmmakers and booths offering apparel by local designers, local independent print media, and carnival games.
Tax Abatement
In 2007, one of Kansas City's development agencies began a program to allow property tax abatements for art-related business that would otherwise be priced out of the neighborhood by fast-rising property values. Neighborhood leaders lobbied for the program to prevent the "Soho Effect" of gentrification. Tax abatements had previously been granted to developers to attract new residents to the neighborhood with high-end condominiums and lofts adjacent to the galleries.



Visiting The Myrtle Avenue Warehouse District

Click on image to enlarge.
The Myrtle Avenue Warehouse District is located along Myrtle Avenue between Kings Road and West Forsyth Street, west of downtown Jacksonville.
Historical photos courtesy of Florida State Archives.
Article by Ennis Davis.

Noone
July 19, 2011, 07:24:54 AMThe same reevaluation of zoning and uses needs to include the Waterways of our St. Johns River our American Heritage River. How close is McCoys Creek to this revitalized urban district?
vicupstate
July 19, 2011, 07:53:33 AMInteresting examples from Columbus and K.C. That Columbus Convention Center looks huge.
Ocklawaha
July 19, 2011, 08:12:06 AMThis district and the Durkeeville business district are reason number 1 why the streetcar needs to use MYRTLE AVENUE to access points north or south of the railroad. The Myrtle Avenue subway under the railroad tracks dates to the early 1900's, and the tunnel portion was lengthened for the opening of the huge 1919 railroad terminal. The central part of the tunnel where the box culvert runs through today was designed for streetcars. The floor of the tunnel is considerably deeper under that culvert where the tracks are, and guess what? The floor of the lowest part of the streetcar tunnel is designed to DRAIN WATER. Anyone who has seen those tunnels after a good rain storm understands how important those drains were before they laid that stupid culvert over the top of them.
A catalyst to the redevelopment of the warehouse district is found in the streetcar using Myrtle. The streetcar would also have the effect of pulling development west from Riverside and Park and thus filling in and redeveloping a large amount of now vacant land in Brooklyn; killing several birds with one stone.
As for McCoys Creek, this area is west of I-95 and north of the railroad, generally putting it several blocks from the creek.
Imagine what a streetcar and revitalized Myrtle Avenue might do for McCoys Creek, I can see it now, "Noones Urban Kayak Adventure Outfitters."
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
July 19, 2011, 08:55:19 AMNoone, in this aerial you can see the location of McCoys Creek (left side of image) and the Myrtle Avenue District (highlighted in yellow).
Just south of the Myrtle Avenue subway, there is also a small cluster of buildings dating back to 1909. Here are a few images:
urbanlibertarian
July 19, 2011, 10:59:57 AMI've worked in this area for 30 years and it hasn't changed much during that time. Thanks for the historical and business info.
Gravity
July 20, 2011, 11:44:58 AMGreat research.
I think re-reusing that myrtle underpass for some kind of public transit branch onto that side of town would be a great and less-expensive kick off point for a city wide transit system that actually works, and could revitalize the potential this area has for industry.
avs
July 20, 2011, 02:17:57 PMSo now in Jax you can't redevelop empty warehouses into adaptive re-use projects? For real?
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 02:38:56 PMIf your property falls within one of the industrial preservation zoning overlays, it means turning an old brick warehouse into something like an art gallery or residential loft won't be allowed without getting council approval for rezoning (and paying the extra fees and time that comes with that process).
avs
July 20, 2011, 03:36:53 PMwow. the backward thinking in this town continues to amaze me.
The incentives for developing an arts district is something I always wanted to see in Springfield. Several cities have done such things, including KC in the article. I am glad to see the push for artist's housing downtown. That will help bring not only more but a new population downtown. It could also be a great way to re-use the old industrial buildings along Myrtle Ave. as well. Lets hope this city is starting to grow up a little
simms3
July 20, 2011, 07:22:08 PMCastleberry Hill in Atlanta is now a hotbed for artists, galleries, and restaurants. It is south of downtown and is definitely the best example of a warehouse district in the south. Granted, its building stock was much more confined and generally larger, so there was more to work with.
Developed in the late 1800s and early 1900s, Castleberry Hill was desolate and rough from about 1920 to the 1980s. The population in 1992 was 150 residents living in 120 lofts. Now there are 1,000-1,500 residents in a roughly 12-13 small city block area and a plethora of new apartments within walking distance. It is a federally recognized historic district.
I think it will be tough to get a warehouse district going in Jacksonville with or without easy regulation because there just isn't the type of warehouse stock necessary to get the same feel. I do think we can use what little there is and build in a warehouse loft type manner and provide a 21st century twist to what is available in the older/larger/midwestern cities.
peestandingup
July 20, 2011, 07:36:38 PMWow. Because there is just SOO much industrial manufacturing left in America today.
WTF is wrong with these people? What, do they think all of this industrial building stock is just gonna magically bounce back & pick up right where it left off??
Charles Hunter
July 20, 2011, 08:21:21 PMThe primary reason the industrial preservation overlay was passed, was, back during the housing boom, every vacant square foot of land was being rezoned residential. This included land near the port and airport. People would move in, then object to increases or expansion of the industrial stuff next door. Never mind that the industry was there first. An unintended consequence is in areas like the Myrtle corridor and others, where industry is gone and not coming back.
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 08:49:17 PMI like Castleberry Hill but its no where near the best example of an authentic urban warehouse district in the South. That would be a battle between New Orleans' Warehouse District and Richmond's Shockoe Slip/ Bottom. Both have 19th century level density and are pretty vibrant at street level. Unless things have changed since 2009 (my last time visiting Castleberry Hill), I remember Castleberry Hill being a lot more spread out with smaller historic structures than the two mentioned above and shown below.
New Orleans Warehouse District
Richmond's Shockoe Slip/Bottom
I don't. Every city tends to be unique in its own right. For every Shockoe Bottom, there's a Channel District in a port city like Tampa, a Design District in a cosmopolitan place like Miami or a Congaree Vista District in a smaller community like Columbia, SC:
Tampa's Channel District
Miami's Design District
Columbia's Congaree Vista District
What happens in Jax will/should have its own flavor. However, that creativity and innovation can't be released if we keep enacting policies to keep natural organic change from happening. Regarding Jacksonville, we had one of the most compact and architecturally unique industrial districts in the south along Bay Street and our waterfront but other than a survivor or two (like the Churchwell Lofts, Maxwell House, etc.), that district is long gone.
Today, I think the most architecturally unique is the Springfield Warehouse District and the most urban may be Dennis Street. As for an Atlanta example that Myrtle Street probably resembles in terms of historic building scale, imo, its Marietta Street between Centennial Olympic Park and the Club Compound area (minus the new urban infill of course).
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 08:52:55 PMThe reason behind the industrial preservation bill was a solid one. Unfortunately, those in charge didn't have the ability to look at things holistically and consider that a one size fits all solution can't apply to a city as diverse as Jacksonville. So while the concept definitely helps set aside riverfront land for future expansion of port related facilities, it further cripples a struggling decaying area like Myrtle Avenue or Springfield's Warehouse District.
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 09:24:09 PMOh yeah, can't forget about Dallas' Deep Ellum either. I'd rate it above Castleberry Hill at this point as well. Although its dominanted with small one and two story buildings, its much larger, definitely walkable and now connected with the rest of the Metroplex via the recent DART LRT Green Line extension.
simms3
July 20, 2011, 10:04:18 PMWell, there is nothing spread out about Castleberry Hill, perhaps you were in the wrong area (there is one surface lot that holds maybe 20 cars behind some buildings and no room for street parking), BUT I'll give you Shockoe Slip and New Orleans. Forgot about those cities' districts. While the restored buildings in Castleberry are only 2-4 floors tops, and generally 2-3 floors, there are actually a whole host of large 5-8 floor warehouse buildings nearby that if restored would easily give any warehouse district a run for its money. Just go to Bing Maps bird's eye and you can see a couple million square feet of 5-8 floor buildings begging to be restored within an 8th of a mile. The south's largest warehouses are actually in Atlanta (including the now being renovated 2 million square foot Sears Roebuck city hall east, which has an old Ford plant next to it that was converted to lofts with ground level retail a couple years ago).
Marietta St, too, is a good example of urban restoration, but is laid out too differently than the Myrtle Ave area. It is also considerably denser with old building stock. It is one road (with buildings as narrow as 1 large room across) that runs by railroad tracks. It's so land starved that since 2009 almost every building along Marietta St has a rooftop garden and terrace. All of those buildings were blighted when I arrived in 2006, and now all are restored with about 1,200 new apartment units built since then, too. 2009 to now is a huge difference in intown Atlanta. Also, White Provisions was finished...you as an architect probably are aware of that project...turning an old factory into a mixed use project with a mid-rise condos, a Room & Board, one of the south's only 5 star restaurants, and tons of other things. Anthropologie renovated a warehouse across the street, and a couple of the best galleries in the country are on this street in renovated space now. I don't even think Nola and Richmond have that level of activity and money pouring into their districts.
And as much as people on this board hate to hear that big money is the factor and not grassroots, in Atlanta's Westside district case (the old meatpacking district along Marietta that you spoke of), it was big money. Jamestown financed White Provisions. The apartments are all big money. The tenants are mostly upscale and can afford rents that really don't exist in Jacksonville.
Jamestown is a company that does have a lot of money and only invests in urban, green projects. It's a German company with NA HQ in Atlanta. They did the Chelsea Market in NYC's meatpacking district (Green Street Properties of Atlanta, the force behind that, is now a subsidiary of Jamestown). Jamestown also did Warehouse Row in Chatanooga:
http://www.warehouserow.net/
http://whiteprovision.com/
Drew Ellis, a boutique in Midtown with pop-up locations in Manhattan, tried out Warehouse Row. It is still there, but one of the owners tells me that it is difficult because Jamestown got a little too giddy about the feasibility of the project (Drew Ellis has a relation with Jamestown, as they are in Jamestown's Metropolis in Midtown). Problem with Warehouse Row is its separation from the rest of Chatanooga and its isolation as a warehouse concept (also, Drew Ellis is expensive...I know
http://www.jamestownproperties.com/
http://greenstreetproperties.com/Home.aspx
The big player in downtown Atlanta rehabs and around Centennial Park is Legacy Property Group. It doesn't look past the area. It doesn't care about other areas. It wants that area to be a hotspot, and it has succeeded. M Street (Marietta St) from downtown to the aquarium is home to some serious new development from big hotels and loft condos with helipads for copter tours and fancy guests to some of the hottest intown Atlanta restaurants (Stats and Der Biergarten, next door to each other with parking on the roof behind them are seriously awesome...you can rent a locker to store your steins at Der Biergarten and become a member, and Stats offers table taps and rooftop views of the city). Anyway, they should be rolemodels for a Jacksonville company wanting to niche itself. They have BIG backing now, but started small with ideas and hard work. They started one project at a time, and now THE western downtown Atlanta player.
http://www.legacyproperty.com/
Seriously check out their website for some really cool pictures of their projects and the area (Marietta Street you speak of).
I know I refer to Atlanta and occasionally other cities, but I can only speak from my experience and knowledge and Jacksonville seriously needs outside input, outside ideas, outside money, and outside everything.
simms3
July 20, 2011, 10:07:42 PMAnd sorry, but Dallas has nothing on Atlanta in terms of walkability. Deep Ellum does not impress me one bit. Nor does Uptown. Nor does the area towards Preston or Love Field, etc. I actually can't stand that entire city, but if I were rich and could stand Dallas culture, then I suppose the Park Cities are nice.
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 10:48:20 PMNeither Dallas or Atlanta are really walkable. In fact they are both pretty similar. However, Deep Ellum is more walkable and larger than Castleberry Hill. Give me a few minutes. I'll post some scaled aerials of these districts to illustrate my point of view.
Ocklawaha
July 20, 2011, 11:13:28 PMOklahoma City isn't too bad either, in fact if you could just kick the Sooners out, it might be perfect.
Deep Deuce Warehouse District, Oklahoma City
Beginning in the late 1800’s, the Deep Deuce became the economic and cultural center for African-Americans in Oklahoma City. Within walking distance of downtown and the warehouse district (now Bricktown), African-Americans lived in the Deep Deuce.
Automobile Alley. A popular retail district in the 1920s, Automobile Alley was home to most of the city’s car dealerships. Today a stroll through the area will take you past the art deco architecture tucked away in galleries, upscale lofts and offices.
North Broadway Avenue from West Park Place (just north of 10th Street) to Northwest Fourth Street,
Within Oklahoma City Bricktown is possibly the most vibrant and magnetic district. Situated to the east of the city's Downtown, Bricktown was once a rundown warehouse district. The area has undergone a major transformation in recent years, however, with developers buying up the cavernous buildings and turning them into trendy restaurants, lively bars, and pumping clubs. Given its newfound evening appeal, and the scenic nature of Bricktown in Oklahoma City by day, it is today one of Oklahoma's standout attractions.
OCKLAWAHA
simms3
July 20, 2011, 11:16:04 PMLooking forward to the aerials, and I know Deep Ellum covers more city blocks than Castleberry Hill (never denied that) considering Castleberry is bounded by railroad tracks, highway, universities, etc. I'll admit that the last time I saw Ellus was the last time I was in Dallas in October of 2008, and I got to really explore the city. I'm sure much has changed since then, but I couldn't wait to leave that city. Couldn't take much about it and I thought it was deader than a doornail, including Ellum at that time (an area that had been built up to me as the place to go).
If you haven't seen Castleberry Hill since '09, then you haven't seen Castleberry Hill. It is a denser network of buildings than Ellum, and it now has its own supermarket, meat market, galleries, restaurants, etc. It's not as hot as the westside, though. Even Bing Maps can't keep up with any of the Westside, which has seen such drastic changes words cannot describe. Atlanta is a much more industrial feeling city from a brick and mortar perspective (pre-war) than Dallas. There are just so many more old warehouses in different parts of the city, and so many more hot neighborhoods within spitting distance of downtown than Dallas. Dallas keeps going north, Atlanta is literally caving in on itself in a good way. I live in and walk Midtown every day. Apple nearly went in 2 blocks from me and predicted $5,300/Sf in sales their first year open (it's still on the table I think, and this is privy information btw). They aren't looking at going anywhere but the malls in Dallas. The other thing, Atlantic Station "looks" new, but those buildings are also restored warehouses. I actually wish that didn't really happen, because all of that could also be in the real Midtown.
I don't like it when people say Dallas and Atlanta are the same, especially people who should know better such as yourself. Atlanta is the poster child for everything right to be done and everything wrong to be done, for Jacksonville's case. Jacksonville should not look at Dallas for anything. That city is so different in so many ways that its most redeeming characteristic is the landscaping in Highland Park (I'm pretty sure every house there has a different lawn service each day). That and the Joule Hotel in downtown Dallas are the only cool things in that city.
PS: Hall Pass was filmed in Castleberry Hill.
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 11:43:09 PMKeep in mind, when I'm writing about this, it has nothing to do with my personal feelings towards a particular city or vibe. For example, I actually prefer Fort Worth to Dallas and Richmond, but wouldn't stay in any as long as I have a choice. I'm strictly comparing them from a pedestrian scale level after visiting all of them on foot with the purpose of looking at their urban form during my time of being there. My comparison has nothing to do with the type of people who frequent them, their culture or quality/style of infill loft development. My focus is strictly pedestrian scale urbanism and integration at street level.
Atlanta - Castleberry Hill
General thoughts - no real street grid and majority of buildings straddle two streets (Walker and Peters). Significant portion of district is vacant lots (urban dead zones at pedestrian level) where buildings used to be.
Dallas - Deep Ellum
General thoughts - urban street grid, LRT stop and majority of lots have buildings on them.
New Orleans - Warehouse District
General thoughts - Its as urban as it gets in the South. Any time we talk Southern urbanism, its going to be right up at the top since its also one of the oldest and densest cities in the country.
Richmond - Shockoe Slip/Bottom
General thoughts - Its long and narrow because it follows the river. However, its got a good 8 or 9 blocks of continuous multistory historic warehouses before being broken up by a parking lot. Once you get under I-95, you've got another string of buildings that end up integrating seamlessly with DT. The cobblestone streets and San Antonio style Canal Walk also add to Shockoe's flavor.
Some random shots from past MJ articles...
I haven't been to Dallas since 2006 but here is what Deep Ellum looked like back then.
Deep Ellum at street level
Out of these four, Richmond probably wins in a landslide on the historical architectural side of things.
This is what it looks like at street level when you don't see a lot of green on aerials. While all of these places have industrial pasts, when you're in New Orleans' warehouse district, it actually feels like you're in the heart of a city.
We've never done a photo thread on Castleberry Hill, although I do have photos on a flash drive somewhere around my place.
thelakelander
July 20, 2011, 11:51:30 PMAll the Google Earth aerials were taken in 2010. I see some growth in all of the cities since I've visited them but the aerials still illustrate the difference in urbanity, as far as walkability (connected street grid, block lengths), building fabric vs. surface lots, etc. goes.
You're right, they are not the same. Dallas has a superior transit network and having Fort Worth nearby is a major plus. On the other hand, Atlanta is greener, the food is better and it's closer to Florida
thelakelander
July 21, 2011, 12:14:32 AMIts similar in that there is one dominant street and its linear in nature and their placement in relation to each city's downtown core. Most of the buildings are also pretty small in terms of scale when compared with some of the other districts discussed here. What's not similar is that there is nothing equivalent to GT in Jacksonville.
In terms of urbanism, I don't get too caught up on who has 5 star restaurants, popular developers and certain chains. My focus is on if a place is well integrated at the pedestrian level. Some places that people will call slums happen to be districts I enjoy the most. For example, the image below was taken in Miami a few years ago. Its not South Beach but I loved the vibe with the sidewalk. They pretty much pull up the roll up door and you got quick serve mom & pop cuban cuisine right on the sidewalk. Definitely, not five star but still generates foot traffic on the street.
Big money is definitely not driving the scene in Miami's Little Havana or Flagler Street. It's a cluster of little places like this:
They may not get the people dressed in Armani suits or developers building lofts with marble floors but its a vibrant street scene full of local culture. At the end of the day, that's all I really want for Jacksonville. A sustainable urban core where people from all walks of life can have access to and enjoy it. To me it doesn't matter if its upscale or for the common man, as long as its urban I'm cool with it. On the flip end, if its not sustainable and sprawly, I have issues with it.
I definitely agree. That's why I tend to focus on public policy a lot. For Jacksonville to turn the corner, its got to allow creativity, innovation and change to freely happen.
simms3
July 21, 2011, 12:30:52 AMYea the aerials don't do any of the districts justice. You say there are vacant lots in Castleberry Hill, but even on the aerial there is just one (the one where I mentioned parking behind buildings on a sides street). Ellum looks the best on an aerial (which tells me something), but then again all those buildings are 1 floor, sometimes 2. Can't really tell much on the Nola aerial or on the Richmond aerial, and those buildings, especially in Richmond, are large.
I agree with you Nola is the most urban of any city in the South. I also agree that Richmond's Shockoe is awesome. Shockoe reminds me of Milwaukee almost to a drumbeat (albeit slightly smaller than the stuff Milwaukee has going on). Your picture of Ellum brings me back, and it looks great from your picture. I really like that picture. I do think Ellum is about as cool as Dallas gets, which is not saying much, especially for a city that size. I do agree their transit system is more extensive and growing, but now so is ours. I'll take pictures of Castleberry Hill and all things warehouse in Atlanta this weekend (wish I could get a weekday, but fresh is better than none).
BTW, just speaking of Dallas, my last roommate was from Dallas (and she's still got some Dallas in her
thelakelander
July 21, 2011, 12:37:04 AMLol, I've done the exact same thing in Dallas. The last two times I haven't rented a car and got everywhere I wanted to go with a combination of DART, the M-Line Trolley and TRE. I'm getting ready to go to LA and San Diego in two weeks. I won't be renting a car for that one either. I'm hoping I can live to see the day where getting around town without a car would be a realistic option for Jacksonville.
simms3
July 21, 2011, 12:44:41 AMthelakelander
July 21, 2011, 06:46:06 AMI was just there three months ago. I don't think I'm losing my marbles that quick. Minus the new urban infill, Myrtle resembles more of an unpolised M-Street in terms of urban layout/characteristics than it does with these other districts we've discussed in this thread.
One of the greatest things about urbanism is that everyplace has its unique quirks, both large and small. The best ones are those that figure this out and roll with the flow.
Don't just focus on large scale projects. One of the greatest benefits in smaller scale structures is that something like a CoRK, Shantytown or a 5th & Liberty can quickly spring up overnight. Every place and its context is different. A Springfield or Myrtle Avenue warehouse district will never be a replica of Atlanta's Castleberry Hill. By the same token, a Castleberry Hill will never be a Myrtle Avenue.
avs
July 21, 2011, 08:18:54 AMOne of the big impetuses for the development of Channelside in Tampa was the building of the aquarium and the cruises ships coming in. Also, back then, Ybor (adjacent) had begun to be more developed and be seen as a "destination." These are site specific, but all districts have assets they can build on. Public policy has to encourage that creative development though. And a city can have more than one warehouse district too. Maybe Jax has 2-3 smaller ones that each offer something a little unique and make each of them destinations in their own right. If public policy loosened up of course
simms3
July 21, 2011, 08:26:35 AMWell prepare to have your memory jogged and your mind blown (in that most people simply don't know about Atlanta's industrial/loft side).
I will snap shots of Castleberry and Westside to show activity that goes on in these places, but I will also show 2 warehouse districts that can be equated to what Jacksonville has (albeit on a much larger scale, same type of buildings though) and what Atlanta has done with them. I will show a warehouse district on Ponce that's already seen some redevelopment and is about to see the largest warehouse redevelopment in history (largest warehouse in the south, and nearly one of the largest buildings in the country period), I will show a warehouse/loft district on the city's east side, including a trio of 3 large buildings (each building is larger than practically any of the Shockoe buildings in Richmond, believe it or not), and I had a friend that lived in one. Finally, I will touch base with some of the smaller stuff and with Atlantic Station, which is itself a rehabbed warehouse district (most people don't know that...it was the largest brownfield development in the country at the time and it was actually a large steel mill built in 1901).
Most people are very surprised to learn about Atlanta's warehouse stock, but if it were all put together in one district, it would easily blow anything in Nola or Richmond out of the water and compete easily with some of the best the north/midwest has to offer. What we have done with what we have makes these areas some of the hottest pieces of real estate around. The difficulty with Atlanta is that visitors get lost, there is no grid, there are large hills, and more tree cover than any other city in America. It's just difficult to see things. For those of us who live here, the fun of the city is stumbling on some new spot that blows our mind. I discover something "new" about 2-3 times a year, and by something I mean an area that's pretty significant.
Most importantly, there are two intown warehouse districts that are very similar to what you have showcased on MetroJax in Springfield and around Myrtle (these aren't 19th century warehouses, but rather mid-century warehouses) that have been redeveloped in fairly significant ways. One includes Sweetwater Brewery, which is quadrupling in size but is already quite large, and the other includes Atlanta Brewing Company (home to Red Brick Ale). It would be interesting to see these and the smaller stuff because it's similar to what Jacksonville has. Even on Marietta, there are quite a few 3-5 floor brick boxes, which we just don't have in Florida (well as you said, Bay Street "had").
To me, Atlanta looks almost more Midwestern than southern in many ways. Lots of brick, large warehouses, old factories with smoke stacks, etc. It takes more than a visit to see any of this (though I am surprised you haven't noticed since you have an eye for this stuff). Combine that with snow in the winter and you really don't think you're in the south at all.
thelakelander
July 21, 2011, 08:48:46 AMI remember the Channel District really taking off after the streetcar had been extended to through the area. I looked at buying a small warehouse there back around 2000 but thought things were overpriced and that the redevelopment process would take much longer. Looking back, I blew that opportunity.
Bingo! Right now we have a brewery/arts district starting to develop in Riverside, a market district along Beaver and who knows what the future can hold for Myrtle, Springfield, LaVilla and others? If public policy can be modified to encourage creativity and innovation, the sky is the limit for a lot of issues Jacksonville faces.
avs
July 21, 2011, 09:18:10 AMThe street car certainly was good. I left it out as an impetus because back then people hardly used it (even though a ride was 25cents). I used to ride it back then and I thought it was great. I would park in Ybor and take the streetcar downtown to the Planning Dept to work. I, personally, loved that I didn't have to pay exhorbatent prices for parking in a downtown lot all day or spend time in the morning looking downtown to park. It was good that as the district took off public transportation was already there and ready to go - it was planned ahead of time
Why not use some warehouse zoning overlays in key Jax warehouse districts to override that silly ordinance in certain areas? The overlays could allow more alternate development in those districts and encourage more creative uses. They could then be used in policy development for stimulus such as tax incentives? Such as the Riverside district that is developing. Give some incentives for artists housing development or galleries? just a thought I am throwing out.
thelakelander
July 21, 2011, 09:32:10 AMI'm in agreement with modifying zoning in specific areas to encourage creative redevelopment. I think the model Kansas City took with their Crossroads District is one worth looking into for Jacksonville.
billy
July 21, 2011, 10:13:59 AMJust allow residential uses in structures fifty years old or older, and only in light industrial areas,
not heavy. I've mentioned this before. City of Atlanta made this modification years ago.