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Getting to Know State Road 9B (I-795)

Work will soon be underway on Jacksonville's latest expressway, State Road 9B (Future I-795). This four lane divided interstate highway will eventually connect SR 9A to Interstate 95.

Published May 4, 2010 in Development      414 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article

About the Corridor


The entire State Road 9B corridor is highlighted in orange on the graphic above.

Quote
A new roadway connecting southern Duval County with northern St. Johns County has been in the plans since the mid 1970’s. The new road will provide a vital link in the overall transportation system by ultimately improving access to Interstate 95 and relieving the heavily congested U.S. 1 and Old St. Augustine Road corridors in southern Duval and northern St. Johns counties near Jacksonville, Florida.

Prior to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) of 2009, the project was on hold due to lack of funding. Although State Road 9B was not funded during the first round of ARRA projects, remaining funds became available from projects that came in under budget. By the end of 2009, the first phase of State Road 9B, from State Road 9A to U.S. 1, was finally funded. Construction of phase two remains unfunded.

The road will be constructed of concrete pavement and will initially have two travel lanes in each direction with 10-foot paved shoulders on the outside lanes, four-foot paved shoulders on the inside lanes, and an 88-foot center median. The speed limit is currently planned for 65 mph.

The State Road 9B corridor is designed to ultimately accommodate eight lanes of traffic, four 12-foot lanes in each direction, with 12-foot shoulders on each side of the roadway.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/AboutUs.aspx




Phase 1: SR 9A to US 1 (Philips Highway)



Quote
Phase one of State Road 9B begins at State Road 9A and extends nearly five miles south where it will connect to U.S. 1 at Gran Bay Parkway.

On the north end of the project, a new interchange between S.R. 9A and S.R. 9B will allow southbound S.R. 9A traffic to remain on S.R. 9A or enter S.R. 9B. Northbound S.R. 9B traffic will continue northbound onto S.R. 9A.

On the south end of the project, a new interchange will provide a direct connection between S.R. 9B and U.S. 1 by way of signalized intersections. Turn lanes will be constructed both north- and southbound on U.S. 1 for vehicles entering northbound S.R. 9B, and entrance and exit ramps will provide access between the two roadways.

Lane closures will be necessary on U.S. 1 and S.R. 9A during construction, but will not be allowed during peak traffic times.

This project was bid as a design/build contract to accelerate construction and was awarded to the design build team of Archer Western Contractors / GAI Consultants for $68,473,000.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/AboutUs.aspx



Phase 2: US 1 (Philips Highway) to Interstate 95



Quote
Phase two is proposed to extend State Road 9B from U.S. 1 to Interstate 95 with an interchange providing access from southbound S.R. 9B to both north- and southbound Interstate 95. Access will also be provided from northbound Interstate 95 to northbound S.R. 9B.

The proposed interchange at Interstate 95 is located about two miles south of Old St. Augustine Road and four miles north of County Road 210.

Also proposed in phase two is construction of the remaining ramps at the interchange with U.S. 1, resulting in full access between S.R. 9B and U.S. 1, both north- and southbound. An off-ramp from southbound S.R. 9B to Flagler Development is also proposed during phase two construction.

Design and right-of-way acquisition are underway for this phase, but construction costs remain unfunded at this time.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/Phase1.aspx


Sample Frequently Asked Questions

Quote
When and where will construction begin on State Road 9B - Phase One and what happens first?

Preliminary field work, including: surveying, soil testing and gopher tortoise relocation, is already underway to prepare for the start of construction in early July 2010. One of the first visible signs of construction will be crews placing barrier wall at both State Road 9A and U.S. 1 to to protect workers and motorists during construction. Crews will also begin clearing the right-of-way on the south end of the project, near U.S. 1, and work north. Most of the work will not be visible from the roadway, so it may appear there are long periods of no activity; however, progress photos will be placed in the photo gallery on this website.

http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/Photos.aspx


How did State Road 9B finally get funded?

The only portion of State Road 9B that is currently funded for construction is between State Road 9A and U.S. 1 in Duval County. Federal stimulus money remaining from other projects that were funded and came in under budget became available at the end of 2009. The first segment of State Road 9B, from State Road 9A to U.S. 1, was funded through this second round of stimulus money. The remainder of State Road 9B construction remains unfunded at this time.


Is State Road 9B going to be a toll road?

There are no current plans to make State Road 9B a toll road.


Will State Road 9B be constructed with asphalt or concrete?

State Road 9B – Phase One will be constructed with concrete, a material that lasts longer, but takes longer to rehabilitate or repair when necessary. For example, currently underway is a project to rehabilitate the concrete pavement on four miles of Interstate 10, between Lane Avenue and Stockton Street. This rehabilitation is scheduled to take three years to complete. The turn lanes and ramps at the new intersection with U.S. 1 will be built using asphalt to match the existing roadway.


Will there be any accommodation for bicycles and pedestrians on State Road 9B?

No, State Road 9B is being constructed as a limited-access highway and will not accommodate pedestrians or bicyclists. However, bicycle and pedestrians are allowed along U.S. 1 and will be accommodated during construction.



How many travel lanes will State Road 9B have?

State Road 9B will initially be constructed as a four-lane concrete divided highway, expandable to eight lanes. It will include bridge crossings over Rudin Street, Powers Bay, Powers Bay Relief, Big Davis Creek Relief, Big Davis Creek, Cross Road and State Road 9A. All bridges will be built to accommodate future expansion without the need to be completely reconstructed.


Will motorists on State Road 9B - Phase One have full access to State Road 9A and U.S. 1?

On the north end of the project, a new interchange between State Road 9A and State Road 9B will allow southbound State Road 9A traffic remain on State Road 9A or enter State Road 9 B. Northbound State Road 9B traffic will continue northbound onto State Road 9A. Northbound State Road 9b will not have access to southbound State Road 9A. On the south end of Phase One, two new signalized intersections will provide direct connections between State Road 9B and U.S 1, just south of Bayard. Turn lanes will be constructed on U.S. 1 at the new signalized intersections to allow both north- and southbound motorists access between the two roadways.

For more information: http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/AboutUs.aspx

Update by Ennis Davis







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414 Comments

British Shoe Company

August 08, 2009, 09:16:17 AM
Will it benefit congestion?

When will construction begin?

tufsu1

August 08, 2009, 09:24:11 AM
Will it benefit congestion?

When will construction begin?

It may benefit congestion some, but probably not enough to justify the project cost (around $200 million from I-95 to SR 9A).....the other problem is that it pretty much requiresd an extension from I-95 down to Racetrack Rd.

Constructio right now is at least 5 years out....unless stimulus funds can be found.

British Shoe Company

August 08, 2009, 09:30:53 AM
In 5 years, 9A will be called I295.  T.I.F. bonds are back.  Is there any landowners who could lose their land fighting the project?

reednavy

August 08, 2009, 09:31:35 AM
At least put in a much needed interchange at Raetrack Rd. It'll alleviate a good bit of traffic from San Jose.

British Shoe Company

August 08, 2009, 09:32:41 AM
You got that right!

Ocklawaha

August 08, 2009, 09:38:38 AM
Will it benefit congestion?

When will construction begin?

Looking at the proposed route, it WILL lift the jams at I-95 and I-295, I-95 and St. Augustine Road, Racetrack Rd, I-95 and 210. It will provide a direct truck route to and from the Port of Jacksonville and South Florida. Anyone that drives that stretch has probably noted the huge amount of container and auto carrier trucks which flood I-95. The 9B will serve to direct them away from some of Duval/St. Johns worst interchange bottlenecks.

Honestly, while I don't like the route, the whole Outer-Beltway will probably be overdue before it arrives on the scene. I-295 was built as a BY-PASS to the City of Jacksonville. This road built at only 4 lanes, was never intended to carry the traffic it does, especially in the Southwest rim of the City. The Beltway will divert traffic, however if it's a toll road, that will tend to negate the commercial vehicle use of it, defeating the purpose. Since Middleburg/Penny Farms is already well into a development roll, I don't see this segment as much more then a bridge and more endless sprawl.


OCKLAWAHA

British Shoe Company

August 08, 2009, 09:44:15 AM
It sounds like purchasing an "I Pass", or "Easy Pass" to drive thru toll booths would be great, instead of a stop, and paying toll.  I think there will be tolls. 

Charles Hunter

August 08, 2009, 10:06:53 AM
From what I've read, there will be tolls on the Outer Beltway - or there won't be an Outer Beltway, the state doesn't have the nearly $2 Billion to build this thing.  I've also heard that "Easy Pass" type tolls will be the only tolls - no "toll booths" to stop at and pay cash.  And, BSC, as I understand it, the switch to calling 9A "I-295" is only a couple years away.  I think commercial truckers balance the cost of a toll against the time it takes to use a route that avoids the toll.  With I-295 in SW Jax getting more congested - even with the 6 lanes there now - it may be cheaper for long distance truckers to use the new route.

But, back to 9B (remember 9B, the topic of this thread?), Ock is right, it will make it easier for truckers going between our new container ports and south Florida.

thelakelander

August 08, 2009, 01:16:03 PM
^Until its clogged with new sprawl development surrounding its interchanges.  For the amount of money it costs, 9B is a complete waste.  There are more efficient and cost effective ways to deal with future congestion than building more expressways.

As far as the Outer Beltway goes, I'll believe that one when I see it.  At this point, without fluffing the numbers, it doesn't seem to be feasible for private development.

Charles Hunter

August 08, 2009, 01:48:43 PM
We should know that answer in a about a year, when the next round of private proposals come in.  Shame we can't get a Public-Private partnership to build Commuter Rail or a streetcar.

thelakelander

August 08, 2009, 02:30:25 PM
We probably could on some level.  However, it would require a lot more effort, will and coordination than what's been given so far to significantly stimulate private sector interest.

thelakelander

August 08, 2009, 02:50:15 PM
Here is a map of the 9B corridor

tufsu1

August 08, 2009, 05:14:22 PM
Thanks Lake....shown on the map is also the first phase of the 9B extension down to Nocatee Pkwy Extension (realigned Racetrack Rd)....

Note that I said "first phase"....if you zoom out on the map, you'll see this leaves only a few miles between the end of 9B and the Outer Beltway....somebody will see the value in making the entire stretch an expressway...which of course makes complete sense to me since we are also planning to 8-lane I-95 :-)

Charles Hunter

August 08, 2009, 10:12:46 PM
St. Johns County could preserve the right-of-way along that parallel road (2209?), as they get each developer to build their piece of it.  But I've heard they are allowing it to be built as a normal road - like SR13 or Blanding.  To go back and make it an expressway, it would be quite costly to buy up all of that eventual commercial land.

stjr

August 08, 2009, 11:32:38 PM
I think 9B is poorly planned and is political pork barrel. 

First, even if its 6 laned, 9A/295 will be a parking lot by the time 9B gets built.  So port trucks or anyone else trying to use 9B will not be enthused due to effective denial of efficient access.

Second, 9B's interchanges with US1 and I-95 are so close to those of I-295, I don't see that as justifying the road or having much impact on traffic relief.

Third, the first shown interchange in St. Johns would, as already noted, be better served by an I 95 interchange with Race Track Road.

They should just take the  9B money, interchange I-95 with Race Track and spend the rest to 8 lane I-95 from I-295/southern Duval to SR 16 or wherever and to 8 lane I-295 from I-95 to the east up to the Dames Point Bridge.

Crisscrossing St. Johns County with interstates 9B and the Outer Beltway will just provide developers with more incentive to plaster the county with urban sprawl and accomplish nothing else.  Both projects are designed to enrich developers at the expense of the quality of life in St. Johns County.

Jason

August 10, 2009, 04:01:08 PM
^ Couldn't have said it better.


IMO, if anything, 9B should parallel I95 and run south into Nocatee.  An interchange with I95 and Racetrack road is a no brainer.

reednavy

August 10, 2009, 04:18:54 PM
^ Couldn't have said it better.


IMO, if anything, 9B should parallel I95 and run south into Nocatee.  An interchange with I95 and Racetrack road is a no brainer.

Apparently people at FDOT don't have one then. It should've been part of the deal when JCP was built, with the developer footing 50% since it has made San Jose a giant cluster f*ck.

It's like FDOT thinks about doing things that should've been done 5 or 10 eyars ago, like widening I-10 from past 295, the Big I, and reconfiguring JTB/95 interchange. Whoever reperesents our district in FDOT needs a serious talking to, hell, that goes for the entire department.

tufsu1

August 10, 2009, 05:58:07 PM
It would be difficult to put an interchange at Racetrack Rd for two reasons

1. the rest area
2. spacing requirements (in this area no more than 1 every 2 miles).

In order to do this, FDOT would have to construct C/D roads that start north of Racetrack Road and continue through the rest area (and maybe through CR 210).

Instead, the powers that be have chosen to connect SR 9B with Racetrack/Nocatee and provide access to I-95 that way.

As for FDOT thinking about things 10-15 years too late, that is not entirely true....the reality is FDOT starts planning major transportation improvements 25-30 years out....then when funding seems at least somewhat likely, they start a more detailed PD&E study....but its still 10+ years later before the project gets built....the reasons: permitting process and lack of money.

JTB/95 is a perfect example...planning began for potential improvements more than 10 years ago....and JTA is currently doing a PD&E study to better identify what can be done with limited funds....but its likely to be another 5-10 years before anything big gets built....what is under construction right now is just a stop-gap project.

coredumped

August 10, 2009, 06:27:09 PM
In 5 years, 9A will be called I295.

I wrote the DOT on 4/30/2009 about this and here's their response:

Quote from: Michael Goldman (dot)
The signs are scheduled to be changed next year. It will be known as I-295 east and I-295 west. Please let me know if you have additional questions. Thanks, Mike Goldman

reednavy

August 10, 2009, 06:32:54 PM
Ah, that 1 exit every 2 miles thing is rubbish. It'd be a lot cheaper to widen Racetrack Rd and put in an interchange because quite a bit already has enough ROW to do it.

tufsu1

August 10, 2009, 07:32:16 PM
you can think its rubbish all you want....but go ahead and propose a new interchange on an interstate and let me know what FDOT and FHWA tell you.

thelakelander

August 10, 2009, 07:41:04 PM
Would it be possible to build a Racetrack Road interchange exactly where the I-95/9B interchange is proposed?

reednavy

August 10, 2009, 07:55:39 PM
you can think its rubbish all you want....but go ahead and propose a new interchange on an interstate and let me know what FDOT and FHWA tell you.
When did this all come about though and what is the reasoning?

tufsu1

August 10, 2009, 08:48:13 PM
FDOT has always had a policy on interchange spacing....it is

Urban - 1 mile
Suburban - 2 miles
Rural - 3 miles

When proposing a new interchange, this policy is hard to get around...as I said, the easiest way is to construct  extra (auxiliary) lanes that connect the interchanges...and usually they are physically separated from the mainline facility.

As for building a Racetrack interchange at the proposed location for 9B, yes it could work as it meets the spacing requirements....but you woul still need a local road (CR 2209?) connecting the interchange to Racetrack Rd.

stjr

August 10, 2009, 11:52:02 PM
FDOT has always had a policy on interchange spacing....it is

Urban - 1 mile
Suburban - 2 miles
Rural - 3 miles

When proposing a new interchange, this policy is hard to get around...as I said, the easiest way is to construct extra (auxiliary) lanes that connect the interchanges...and usually they are physically separated from the mainline facility.

Tufsu, there is that creeping FDOT rigidity showing again.  Reednavy has the hang of it this time around.  As you recall, we had a similar discussion about FDOT rule enforcement regarding the Fuller Warren bridge and hanging on it pedestrian access and improving the bridge's aesthetics.

We all know that DOT's in other states bend these rules all the time and probably in other districts of Florida.  If FDOT can handle all those exits at I-10 and I-95, it can surely "squeeze" in Race Track road here.  By the way, just how close is it to the next exit?  According to the map above, it appears that the 9B exit is as close or closer to St. Augustine Road as Race Track is to CR 210 so that proves the rule is already being overlooked.

The real problem is that St. Johns County has overloaded itself with development and failed to match the growth with a proper infrastructure especially regarding its road network.  In fact, it appears it has put almost no thought into its network and has made mostly knee jerk responses based on perceived opportunities to latch on to someone else's project.  9B is a last minute ride on the back of 295/9A and the Outer Beltway was initially pushed by Clay County and proponents of a new river crossing.  Other roads proposed or planned are in reaction to developers donating land or funds to serve their own communities, not to fit in to some master plan.  That's why these projects look like contorted monsters cooked up by Frankenstein.

All those St. Johns County rural roads need to be rerouted into a grid and St. Johns needs multiple intra-county east-west corridors and/or expressways that interchange with I-95 directly if they continue to build all this stuff.  The only reason most St. Johns residents will get on 9B is to make their way to I-95 anyway.

A major north-south corridor for St. Johns County needs to be move westward closer to the St. Johns river, perhaps one to three or so miles east of SR 13.  What St. Johns should really do (in my dreams) is put the breaks on rapid development and think out what it really wants to "grow up to be".  (See the MJ thread on this at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2132.0.html )  It has great natural beauty that it seems willing to squander for nothing in particular.

thelakelander

August 11, 2009, 12:40:27 AM
As for building a Racetrack interchange at the proposed location for 9B, yes it could work as it meets the spacing requirements....but you woul still need a local road (CR 2209?) connecting the interchange to Racetrack Rd.



Something similar to this.  Instead of taking it north around Bayard to 9A, place the Racetrack interchange in the same spot as the proposed I-95/9B interchange and extend a road south to connect to Race Track Road. 

Jason

August 13, 2009, 10:53:54 AM
Bingo Lake.  Besides, 2209 is already well under construction and portions of it already complete.  By simply carying it further north to connect to I95 will eliminate the need for 9B and provide the badly needed Racetrack Road connection point.  It would also give Bartram Park a southerly I95 access point.

tufsu1

August 13, 2009, 04:46:53 PM
I guess I misunderstood your question Lake....serving the Racetrack Road area with an interchange is a separate issue from proividing a seamless bypass from I-95 to 9A....

from what I've been told, that brand new massive I-95/I-295 interchange was designed with 9B in mind and can not handle the extra traffic....thereby requiring 9B, as planned, to be built.

British Shoe Company

September 07, 2009, 06:53:44 PM
If 9B can do half of what 9A has done, it will be great for transportation, and conntecting Jacksonville to St. Augustine.

reednavy

September 07, 2009, 08:33:20 PM
If 9B can do half of what 9A has done, it will be great for transportation, and conntecting Jacksonville to St. Augustine.
So you're for uncontrolled sprawl and traffic I take it?

Part of the reason for 9A is to reroute truck traffic and such around the urban core. 9B is nothing more than a catalyst for wasteful and useless growth.

stjr

September 08, 2009, 12:25:46 AM
If 9B can do half of what 9A has done, it will be great for transportation, and conntecting Jacksonville to St. Augustine.
So you're for uncontrolled sprawl and traffic I take it?

Part of the reason for 9A is to reroute truck traffic and such around the urban core. 9B is nothing more than a catalyst for wasteful and useless growth.

We are tied at the hip on this one, Reednavy.  And, British Shoe, what if 9B doesn't do squat compared to 9A?  Or that it doesn't do squat compared to other transit solutions the money could be better spent on?  Then why should we build it?

Jason

September 08, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
It will do what it is supposed to do.  Provide a southerly connection for northwest St. Johns and free up millions of acres of land for development.  That spur will be used and used a lot.

Still, does nothing to promote smart growth and should not be built, IMO.

stjr

September 08, 2009, 02:10:21 PM
Still, does nothing to promote smart growth and should not be built, IMO.

"squat" = "smart growth".  QED.  LOL.

British Shoe Company

October 03, 2009, 08:53:22 AM
Were you guys "tied at the hips" against The Dames Point bridge too? 

thelakelander

October 03, 2009, 09:16:02 AM
I wasn't in Jacksonville then, but now that you mention it, it would have been better to build it higher or as a tunnel.  I don't think anyone would deny that isn't a huge obstacle for the continued growth of the port.

reednavy

October 03, 2009, 09:20:08 AM
The Dames Point Bridge and 9B are two totally different entities.

British Shoe Company

October 03, 2009, 09:25:51 AM
Yes, I remember people against the bridge being built, and the location.  It worked out well.  Have faith in the engineers who have planned 9B, and it's location!

thelakelander

October 03, 2009, 09:43:17 AM
^Well for moving cars.  However, its been a huge obstacle in determining the location of the cruise port terminal and will become a larger obstacle for the maritime industry as ships continue to increase in size and height. 

Nevertheless, keeping an eye on the planning of these projects is more the future of the city than having faith in transportation planners and engineers.  Its really about what type of community you want to see the city develop into in the future and making sure what's proposed gets you closer to that vision.

British Shoe Company

October 03, 2009, 09:45:25 AM
If 9B will get you to Panda Express, I'm for it!

thelakelander

October 03, 2009, 09:56:16 AM
I-95 will get you to Panda Express.  They are building one on Baymeadows Road.

British Shoe Company

October 03, 2009, 10:23:12 AM
At deerwood (old B of A)  looking forward to that.  I do not understand how 2 can be so close, and we cannot get one at the WGV...

stjr

October 03, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
Were you guys "tied at the hips" against The Dames Point bridge too? 

At the time, yes.  Dames Point was intended to be a toll bridge and, today, it isn't because voters substituted a higher sales tax for the tolls.  When Dames Point was proposed it was pushed through by powerful land owners expecting instant riches upon its completion.  There was no other compelling reason at the time to build the bridge.

For years after its completion it remained little used, even without tolls.  And, as Lake notes, in the rush to build the bridge at all costs (really at a cost that wouldn't result in its cancellation), it was built too low and now serves as a limitation on the port's facilities.  So, to satisfy some land owners, we have a bridge that negatively impacts the economic development of the entire community.

Thanks to well connected land owners and developers, Jax has always been road building happy.  Often, these new roads result in nothing more than additional headaches for the community and taxpayers while a few selected ones reap the riches.  9B is likely to be another example of this as will be the Outer Beltway.  When will we learn, more roads are not the solution to our problems, but often a part of them?

reednavy

October 03, 2009, 11:17:05 AM
At deerwood (old B of A)  looking forward to that.  I do not understand how 2 can be so close, and we cannot get one at the WGV...
Probably because nothing is really out there anyways.

British Shoe Company

October 03, 2009, 11:23:19 AM
Dames Point was necessary to have an eastern loop around Jax.  The location was the cost efficient too.  The bridge should have been built a little higher.  Too late now. 

reednavy

October 03, 2009, 11:36:13 AM
Dames Point was necessary to have an eastern loop around Jax.  The location was the cost efficient too.  The bridge should have been built a little higher.  Too late now. 
As if this wasn't all obvious already.

CS Foltz

October 04, 2009, 07:40:47 AM
9B Connector is just a pipeline for developer expansion...........if you build it they will come right? Now if the deveopers want to foot the bill to put it into place that is something else, but that won't happen! I mean why should they spend their money when they can get FDOT to use our tax dollars to do it for them? Removal of "Concurrency" was a bad move for the public but a good move for developers! Thanks Daniel Davis.........I will not forget!

tufsu1

October 04, 2009, 10:41:28 AM
Concurrency has not been removed, especially not in St. Johns County!

The only thing that has happened is that the state concurrency mandate in "dense urban land areas" has been lifted....but local governments would still need to change their comp. plans to take out concurrency provisions....and by 2012, they must replace it with a fundable mobility plan.

Charles Hunter

October 04, 2009, 02:25:32 PM
note that all of Duval County is a "dense urban land area" - even Maxville, Baldwin, and Eastport.

reednavy

October 04, 2009, 02:29:02 PM
Where the hell is Eastport?

Unless you're referring to Mayport area.

thelakelander

October 04, 2009, 03:43:57 PM
Eastport is the area where the paper mill on Heckscher is located.

Ocklawaha

October 04, 2009, 04:23:40 PM
Eastport is the area where the paper mill on Heckscher is located.


Funny, I always thought of it as suburban New Berlin, or Oceanway...


OCKLAWAHA

AntigoneStarr

October 04, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
This 9B thing... all I'm seeing as a result from this is more Wal*Mart and bad strip malls. -.- and Jacksonville becoming even more spread out and disconnected than ever. Seriously. Half the people that live in this town refuse to leave their end and this doesn't seem like it would help with that at all.

...we need someone to come in with an awesome new monorail system to expand upon the tiny one we already have.

British Shoe Company

October 04, 2009, 07:32:19 PM
9B will bring developers, they developer land, and is that bad?
Do you wants woods, and snakes,  or developed land?
St. Johns County Commissioners are looking out for the our best interst!
It will save people time, and gas!
It will provide places to get food, and gas !
We need JOBS, and 9B will provide JOBS for construction, and the results of the construction will lead to more JOBS!
If you want to be anti development, move to MONTANA!

AntigoneStarr

October 04, 2009, 07:46:50 PM
I have a preference for building up, not out. And we don't need exactly need more from the corporate giants coming in town...

thelakelander

October 04, 2009, 07:56:21 PM
9B will bring developers, they developer land, and is that bad?

If its low density sprawl that will cost the taxpayers more money than it generates, then yes it is a bad thing.

Quote
Do you wants woods, and snakes,  or developed land?

We should want both.  We need to preserve our natural areas, as well as focus on bringing sustainable development to our community.  Having a sustainable mix of both will enhance our standard of living and the region's quality of life.

Quote
St. Johns County Commissioners are looking out for the our best interst!

Most of 9B is in Duval County.  It should not be in Duval County's best interest to further the sprawl development of St. Johns County at the expensive of Duval's residents and their standard of living.

Quote
It will save people time, and gas!
It will provide places to get food, and gas !
We need JOBS, and 9B will provide JOBS for construction, and the results of the construction will lead to more JOBS!

It won't reduce vehicle miles traveled.  However, it may expand them.  Unless new sprawl comes with higher density and a good mix of uses, those new trips generated by 9B will clog other roads in the region to get to places like the grocery store, library, schools, parks and jobs.

Quote
If you want to be anti development, move to MONTANA!
 

The other side of this is, if you want irresponsible sprawl, move to Osceola County or suburban Atlanta.  Locally, we should strive for good quality development. 

British Shoe Company

October 05, 2009, 08:50:49 AM
Your point is correct.  Their should be responsible growth.   

Ocklawaha

October 05, 2009, 10:31:58 AM
I have a preference for building up, not out. And we don't need exactly need more from the corporate giants coming in town...


That's exactly what we need Antigone, add 3 or 4 fortune 500 companies to the City Center, the urban core, and this city would grow UP! Not to mention that type of business "corporate giants" also tend to do some pretty sweet things in their home towns.


This 9B thing... all I'm seeing as a result from this is more Wal*Mart and bad strip malls. -.- and Jacksonville becoming even more spread out and disconnected than ever. Seriously. Half the people that live in this town refuse to leave their end and this doesn't seem like it would help with that at all.

...we need someone to come in with an awesome new monorail system to expand upon the tiny one we already have.

Monorail is NOT THE ANSWER to anything but the city core. Most folks don't know but monorails are as old as the traditional railroads. If they really had some advantage, instead of the golden spike they would have laid the golden beam, that day in Utah, in 1869.


9B will bring developers, they developer land, and is that bad?
Do you wants woods, and snakes,  or developed land?
St. Johns County Commissioners are looking out for the our best interst!
It will save people time, and gas!
It will provide places to get food, and gas !
We need JOBS, and 9B will provide JOBS for construction, and the results of the construction will lead to more JOBS!
If you want to be anti development, move to MONTANA!

I'm your huckleberry on this one too...  be a daisy if I do!
Developers are not bad, but the past methods have to be changed, we must go up and not out. There are many reasons for this but being able to walk to the corner bakery, market, store, office, bus or streetcar/metro stop is one of the largest reasons. We have to wonder what will happen when the oil gets shut off. Lastly, did you know if you add up the surface feet of pavement in the USA, we could now completely cover the Northeastern most 8 states! I don't want that in Florida.

Woods and snakes? Are you really from the UK? All of us would prefer the woods and some of us (myself included) would prefer the snakes, (they eat rats and mice). I have a resident snake in my backyard bushes, named for one of Jacksonville's infamous leaders: "Jake the Snake". Hope it's okay with my good ol boy friend, because "shhh, the snake is B L A C K !" Millions each year rush off to visit our national and state parks, we are blessed as this same flora and fauna is right in our back yards.... Unless we pave it.

Save time? Not really, highways don't move people at all... they move vehicles. The only benefit to 9-B/I-795, is it will remove port traffic from I-95, as well as create a flow of traffic from Northeast St. Johns County toward Town Center.

Providing places for food and gas? Hell's bells the NFL announcer's in the Super Bowl already told the world that we have more Waffle House restaurants then any other city on earth. Great PR!

Construction will provide jobs, no question. Today we can drive a car from St. Augustine to Jacksonville. When the construction of 9-B is complete, we can drive a car from St. Augustine to Jacksonville! Spending those same dollars on rail infrastructure could do far more then 9-B will ever do. Rail would give us choices in our commute and get the 18 wheelers off the expressway.

Already been to Montana!



OCKLAWAHA

British Shoe Company

October 06, 2009, 08:55:26 PM
First, has anybody priced rail infrastructure costs?  Secondly, it makes road building seem very cheap compared to rail infrastructure upkeep costs !

tufsu1

October 06, 2009, 10:29:30 PM
why...because nobody thinks about road upkeep....fact is operations and maintenance on roads average something like 7% of original construction cost per year....so every 13-14 years you're paying for the road all over again.

British Shoe Company

October 06, 2009, 10:47:25 PM
 fufsu, will you do the math, and see if I am correct.  I believe roads will be a better value.

thelakelander

October 06, 2009, 10:52:45 PM
Do you have any facts to back up your belief that roads have better value or is it just a hunch/personal preference?

British Shoe Company

October 06, 2009, 11:19:32 PM
Hunch,   We have tracks already built from St. Aug to Jax.  It would be cost efficient to build a destination/departure station at Phillips, and Southside Blvd. Run a train service for people.   It would help the overflow on US1 (Phillips Hwy). It could run to a few stops further, depending on how far northward it should be go. (need camera's on board to deter crime)

thelakelander

October 06, 2009, 11:36:00 PM
I don't think crime on trains will be much of an issue.  The days of Jessie James are over.  You are probably just as likely to get carjacked at a stop light than robbed on a public train. 

British Shoe Company

October 08, 2009, 11:52:55 PM
A camera a safe way to  deter crime.  If a crime does take place, having film is good.

British Shoe Company

October 10, 2009, 07:08:42 PM
Digital recording!  Calm down Kodak.

Ocklawaha

October 10, 2009, 10:55:09 PM
First, has anybody priced rail infrastructure costs?  Secondly, it makes road building seem very cheap compared to rail infrastructure upkeep costs !

fufsu, will you do the math, and see if I am correct.  I believe roads will be a better value.

 
Heavy main line, figure $1.3 Million per mile to build, as a general rule of thumb. Heavy grading, bridges, tunnels and the like raise this number considerably.

Maintenance costs are dependent on the geography (tangent track is cheaper than heavy curvature) and climate where the tracks lie, as well as volume of traffic and the intended speed over which trains are to be operated. The more extreme the given demands for a stretch of railroad, the higher the maintenance costs.

The latest figures I heard of 1.25 mil, give or take. The land acquisition is gelerally much more than the cost of construction.

As for maintenance, that can vary tremendously depending on the terrain and traffic.
For instance, passenger or light freight use, maintenance would be very little until the ties needed replacing and that could be 20 years or more.

For heavy freight service such as grain or coal lines it would be much much greater but still only a fraction of the maintenance involved in a mile of highway moving the same tonnage by truck.
 
They’re building a railroad in Thailand that’s $220 million for 70 miles, for just over $3 million per mile.
 
Back in the middle 1980s it was one million dollars per mile for new construction, and maintenance can vary. That depends on use and if there are defects. Weather, storms and such. Maintenance is very hard to get dollar specific.

For class 2 you can count on 1 million a mile new, 300,000 per year to upkeep plus bridges and stuff.

Now, someone want to post those money saving highways? How much did that overpass at Atlantic and Kernan cost? How about Beach? What's our current per mile cost in Jax? Sorry British Shoe Company, if your thinking concrete or asphalt is cheaper then rail, I've got a mountain for sale 15 miles south of Waycross that your going to love!


OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1

October 11, 2009, 01:47:42 AM
fufsu, will you do the math, and see if I am correct.  I believe roads will be a better value.

oops...sorry I missed this post

here's the bottom line....road construction and operations/maintenance costs are generally less than transit...but roads have a finite capacity (there's only so many cars you can fit on 6 lanes of asphalt)...but additional transit capacity is much easier...just add more trains/buses.

British Shoe Company

October 11, 2009, 01:46:08 PM
Do we have that many people to justify building roads?

reednavy

October 11, 2009, 02:30:23 PM
Similar-sized metro areas such as Nashville, Austin, and Charlotte have gotten the message, rail is a very important and necessary form of transit. Roads such as 9B go through the middle of nowhere and forests that will then entice developers to come and build, requiring more roads, clogging the already ones in place.

It is just a snowball that keeps growing.

stjr

October 11, 2009, 03:30:10 PM
Take the 9B money and buy a bus shelter without ads for every street corner in Northeast Florida.  It would do us all a lot better.  8)

British Shoe Company

October 11, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
I agree, take the 9B money, and build that road!
I could not have said that better!

British Shoe Company

October 11, 2009, 07:57:40 PM
Similar-sized metro areas such as Nashville, Austin, and Charlotte have gotten the message, rail is a very important and necessary form of transit. Roads such as 9B go through the middle of nowhere and forests that will then entice developers to come and build, requiring more roads, clogging the already ones in place.

It is just a snowball that keeps growing.

British Shoe Company

October 11, 2009, 08:12:39 PM
9B is gonna happen.  Do not be angry.  We are the last Southern City in the South. The rest of Florida is different than us.   We are years away from needing a new expensive way to get from St. Aug. to Jax.(and back).  If we wait, that same technology will be cheaper by the time the Metro Jax area is in need of "Mass transit to, and from Jax. to St Aug."

reednavy

October 11, 2009, 08:14:50 PM
They should be using that money to widen 9A, not building a new road that is not needed. Use what you already have in place before you go building new, needless roads.

Why shouldn't we be angry about 9B? It is a frecking waste of resources.

British Shoe Company

October 11, 2009, 08:54:15 PM
9A is getting it's bang for it's buck.  Give 9B a chance.  Trust me

reednavy

October 11, 2009, 09:07:24 PM
9A is not getting it's bang for the buck. It does not have enough lanes to carry the amount of traffic it does during the weekday. The way it was built where 9B will junction with it is completely f*cked up as well.

It needs to be 3 lanes each way from JTB to where it widens at Philips Hwy.

9B doesn''t deserve a chance at all, once built, it could fail all day, but will still be there. Once it is built, there is no going back, so saying "give it a chance" is very dumb.

I do not trust this developer's dream project at all.

We're not years away from needing another form of transit to SJG(St. Augustine's airport code), it needs to be done now when Amtrak is apparently coming to the FEC tracks, and money is more than there to be used for such a project.

You may think otherwise, but you look like a fool cheering for 9B.

thelakelander

October 11, 2009, 09:12:57 PM
I noticed the other day that there is a fairly large isolated rural property with a commercial land use designation along 9B about half way between 9A and US 1.  The property surrounding it has a low density residential land use designation and runs up the east side of 9B/9A, all the way to the new high school near Baymeadows Road. 

So, the area has already been set up for low density sprawl.  9B will just be positioned to give that isolated land prime highway frontage.  With a lack of a street grid, if this area ever fully develops, expect choke points at Baymeadows, Philips and a future interchange with 9B.

reednavy

October 11, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
Really? Wow, I'm both surprised and unsurprised by the zoning there, and it hasn't even been built yet!

Is it so hard to even allow a grid pattern for streets? If one area needs it, it'll be this next boom area.

thelakelander

October 11, 2009, 09:44:58 PM
You would be amazed by how much of our rural land has already been entitled for unsustainable sprawl development.  If things are to change here, it will be national development trends changing and leading the way.

Charles Hunter

October 11, 2009, 09:48:54 PM
Points well taken, lakelander, but I don't think there's enough distance between 9a and Philips to add an interchange for any of that development. Especially since I think a lot of that area is 'wet'.  Which means the local traffic will load up on Baymeadows and Philips, as you said.

About the grid streets, our friends the developers say "the market doesn't want them."  How the heck do they know?  No one has built a grid street development in, what, 40 years?

reednavy

October 11, 2009, 09:52:41 PM
Of course you know that they'll advertise it is something like Nocacarp(tee), Bullsh*it(Bartram) Park, or Tapetrap(Tapestry) Park, where you can live, work, shop, dine, and play w/o ever leaving the neighborhood.

In Florida, hell in most locations, this so-called "smart growth" over all isn't, when it is done like this. Converting middle of nowhere forestland into sprawling, mulitcolored stucco crap, when developing what is already surrounded by other development or can be redeveloped is in a relatively urban area.

stjr

October 11, 2009, 09:57:15 PM
9A is not getting it's bang for the buck. It does not have enough lanes to carry the amount of traffic it does during the weekday. The way it was built where 9B will junction with it is completely f*cked up as well.

It needs to be 3 lanes each way from JTB to where it widens at Philips Hwy.

9B doesn''t deserve a chance at all, once built, it could fail all day, but will still be there. Once it is built, there is no going back, so saying "give it a chance" is very dumb.

I do not trust this developer's dream project at all.

We're not years away from needing another form of transit to SJG(St. Augustine's airport code), it needs to be done now when Amtrak is apparently coming to the FEC tracks, and money is more than there to be used for such a project.

You may think otherwise, but you look like a fool cheering for 9B.


Reednavy, I agree with your comments above 100%.  9A was built on the cheap and we will be paying double to fix it AND suffering the traffic nightmares until its made right.  Just like JTB and I-95.  We waste more $$$ doing things half ass than we spend right.  9B and the Outer Beltway are totally worthless projects and should be replaced by enhancing existing roads and forwarding mass transit.  Our fearless leaders, consultants, experts, planners, and whatevers are pawns of special interests and are failing us big time by not doing the right thing.

As to British Shoe, he/she seems to be here just to rile us up.  Hard to take seriously.  I've seen this type of poster on other boards.  They just crave attention and will say anything outrageous to get it.

thelakelander

October 11, 2009, 10:05:33 PM
Points well taken, lakelander, but I don't think there's enough distance between 9a and Philips to add an interchange for any of that development. Especially since I think a lot of that area is 'wet'.  Which means the local traffic will load up on Baymeadows and Philips, as you said.

About the grid streets, our friends the developers say "the market doesn't want them."  How the heck do they know?  No one has built a grid street development in, what, 40 years?

The commercial plot is a large centralized dry spot in the middle of all those wetlands.  I was actually suprised it was there.  Nevertheless, the location would suggest someone believes that 9B going through the center of this property increases its development potential.  I just checked the zoning.  Its CO or Commercial Office

You can use this link to map the site:
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=1680600010

Also, here is site plan of a property that has been set aside for a strip shopping center at I-95/9B/Race Track Road.  All it needs is 9B Phase II to become a reality.

http://www.bartramparkonline.com/bartramcommonssiteplan.pdf

http://www.bartramparkonline.com/bartramparkaerialsiteplan.pdf

stjr

October 11, 2009, 10:24:55 PM
The commercial plot is a large centralized dry spot in the middle of all those wetlands.  I was actually suprised it was there.  Nevertheless, the location would suggest someone believes that 9B going through the center of this property increases its development potential.  I just checked the zoning.  Its CO or Commercial Office

Lake, all this land is all owned by DDI or other entities of the Davis's of Winn Dixie and Nocatee fame.  The deed documents show they did some type of deal with JEA over the last few years but in the end they seem to have retained control of it.  So, 9B is just another "feeder" road for their Nocatee, eh?  Also, it appears to feed the Flagler Office Park Development.  Now you know why it's being built.

Too bad.  I was hoping the Davis's would become a hometown hero and arrange for their remaining DDI holdings to become a great national or state park.  Silly me?  Urban sprawl is better?

stephendare

October 11, 2009, 10:47:10 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/-UM9GjnTFIM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/-UM9GjnTFIM</a>

Jason

October 12, 2009, 10:58:22 AM
Quote
Too bad.  I was hoping the Davis's would become a hometown hero and arrange for their remaining DDI holdings to become a great national or state park.  Silly me?  Urban sprawl is better?

No, not better..... more profitable.   >:(

Ocklawaha

October 12, 2009, 11:14:58 AM
9A is getting it's bang for it's buck.  Give 9B a chance.  Trust me

"Said the spider to the fly... why I haven't spun a single web since 1968..."

OCKLAWAHA

British Shoe Company

October 12, 2009, 09:12:07 PM
9A is not getting it's bang for the buck. It does not have enough lanes to carry the amount of traffic it does during the weekday. The way it was built where 9B will junction with it is completely f*cked up as well.

It needs to be 3 lanes each way from JTB to where it widens at Philips Hwy.

9B doesn''t deserve a chance at all, once built, it could fail all day, but will still be there. Once it is built, there is no going back, so saying "give it a chance" is very dumb.

I do not trust this developer's dream project at all.

We're not years away from needing another form of transit to SJG(St. Augustine's airport code), it needs to be done now when Amtrak is apparently coming to the FEC tracks, and money is more than there to be used for such a project.

You may think otherwise, but you look like a fool cheering for 9B.


Reednavy, I agree with your comments above 100%.  9A was built on the cheap and we will be paying double to fix it AND suffering the traffic nightmares until its made right.  Just like JTB and I-95.  We waste more $$$ doing things half ass than we spend right.  9B and the Outer Beltway are totally worthless projects and should be replaced by enhancing existing roads and forwarding mass transit.  Our fearless leaders, consultants, experts, planners, and whatevers are pawns of special interests and are failing us big time by not doing the right thing.

As to British Shoe, he/she seems to be here just to rile us up.  Hard to take seriously.  I've seen this type of poster on other boards.  They just crave attention and will say anything outrageous to get it.

British Shoe Company

October 12, 2009, 09:19:26 PM
"As to British Shoe, he/she seems to be here just to rile us up.  Hard to take seriously.  I've seen this type of poster on other boards.  They just crave attention and will say anything outrageous to get it."


I do not need, or want your attention.  I wanted a "clean" (pros, and cons) about 9B.  I gave my pros.  I see that there are people against it.  I am confident that all people against it are not in the Road Building, or Developing Real Estate Business.  Some of them make it personal.  That is where I find problems.  The BIBLE talks about controlling tempers, and what commith out of the mouth, is what commith from the heart.  I try to be a good hearted person.  I am confident that being for 9B does not make me a mean sprited person. 

British Shoe Company

October 12, 2009, 09:24:46 PM
9A except during rush hours, and crash sites is very speedy.  Airport all the way to I95 south of Jax. is so much faster than I295, and I95.  In Atlanta I75 is faster that the overcrowed loops.  9A is much faster than I95.  Also it helps the people going to the Beaches.  From Merrill Rd. to Phillips Hwy is the big Southside Blvd helper.  Southside Blvd. would be a total nightmare without 9A.

British Shoe Company

October 12, 2009, 09:26:39 PM
We need a barrier to separate the Northbound, and Southbound lanes to prevent deaths like the one that happened last week. ( tow truck crossed over into an SUV)

JaxBorn1962

October 12, 2009, 10:20:59 PM
We need a barrier to separate the Northbound, and Southbound lanes to prevent deaths like the one that happened last week. ( tow truck crossed over into an SUV)
I'm not sure this is True? That Tow truck lost control going to fast along with a lot of other cars believing this area is nothing but a drag strip! If everyone slowed down to the posted speed limit less accidents would happen. And the death was the passenger of the Tow Truck. :(

reednavy

October 12, 2009, 11:22:03 PM
We need a barrier to separate the Northbound, and Southbound lanes to prevent deaths like the one that happened last week. ( tow truck crossed over into an SUV)

The tow truck didn't hit another vehicle. It was raining at the time of the accident and was going too fast for that curvey section of 9A. He likely hydoplaned, causing him to veer into the median and flip. The fatality occured in the tow truck, not another vehicle.

Dude, keep the Bible giberish out of the forum, or at least this thread. There are other threads for that talk.

If you're in the development industry, well, you have a lot of people stacked against you for the crap that 9B will initiate, well, exacerbate even more so. 9B will promote irresponsible development, plain and simple.

stephendare

October 12, 2009, 11:55:07 PM
reed bible talkl, gibberish or otherwise is just as good as any other talk, gibberish or otherwise.  It doesnt break the rules of our forums anywhere near the incivility of telling people to shut up, or demean their religion.

stjr

October 13, 2009, 12:19:37 AM
9A except during rush hours, and crash sites is very speedy.  Airport all the way to I95 south of Jax. is so much faster than I295, and I95.  In Atlanta I75 is faster that the overcrowed loops.  9A is much faster than I95.  Also it helps the people going to the Beaches.  From Merrill Rd. to Phillips Hwy is the big Southside Blvd helper.  Southside Blvd. would be a total nightmare without 9A.

British Shoe, I-95 isn't bad outside rush hour either, and it may be better in most spots than 9A.

More importantly, I thought this thread was about 9B, not 9A.  If you love 9A so much, you should be asking JTA to spend the 9B money on widening 9A to at least the 6 lanes it should have been from the beginning. Wait until 9A gets relabeled next year as I-295 and watch how much of the interstate through traffic starts using it when those out-of-towners finally understand it is part of the I-95 interstate infrastructure.  Then, you will really wish this money went for six lanes of 9A.


In the meantime, 9B isn't going to make your life $200 million plus better.  But, it will create urban sprawl that you will be asked to subsidize with your taxes.  That same sprawl will also create more unnecessary traffic so I am sure you will be back asking for 9C, 9D, 9E.....

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 12:26:15 PM
Thank you for defending religion Stephendare.  I do think 9B is a done deal.  If anyone has a way to make it better, share it with the commissioners.  I like roads like JTB, and 9A because no traffic lights, or stop signs, which saves travel time.

stephendare

October 13, 2009, 12:30:57 PM
Well this is a hella strange site to be posting on, shoe company, lol.

Check out the "What We Stand For" article on the front page.  You might understand the asperity a little better.

Welcome to the site. ;)

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 12:36:45 PM
Will you copy link, and post it?

Thanks,

Bud

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 12:49:48 PM
Will you copy link, and post it?

Thanks,

Bud
Use the search tool.

tufsu1

October 13, 2009, 02:01:18 PM
again, I think it is valuable to have different viewpoints/opinions on this site.

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 03:29:24 PM
again, I think it is valuable to have different viewpoints/opinions on this site.
We never said it wasn't valuable, it's jsut that if you have half a brain, you'll realize how useless 9B is.

tufsu1

October 13, 2009, 03:33:48 PM
I agree that 9B is not  good thing....

But telling someone like BritishShoe that their views are not welcome on this site and that their posts are "strange" is not appropriate!

stephendare

October 13, 2009, 03:35:03 PM
who exactly said that his views are strange tufsu?

St. Auggie

October 13, 2009, 03:46:00 PM
you'll realize how useless 9B is.


Now correct me if I am wrong but was the new 295 interchange built with the intention to have 9b? If so would that not make it necessary? I would suggest anyone who has seen the interchange at Old St. Aug rd and 95 in the mornining would know that folks in St. Johns county need a way to get out of the county rather than Bartram Park Blvd.  And before everyone goes and tells me about public transportation, have you met the people of N St. Johns coutny?  I love them, but they are not getting on bus, train, or a hovercraft. They are getting in an SUV and going to work.  9b becomes pretty necessary when you consider that.

thelakelander

October 13, 2009, 04:09:13 PM
Then the people in St. Johns need to pay for it.  Duval should not be facilitating growth in St. Johns County at its resident's expense.

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 04:12:58 PM
Hmm, I thought everyone used San Jose.

The Old St Augustine Road interchange exit from 95 southbound is terribly short and requires very sudden slow down, unless you want to fly into the onramp for 95 southbound.

Also, the main reason why is because the limited number of interchanges on 95, especially 210, are critically over built and needs better access to US1. A good bit of the traffic problem would be releaved, for a few years at least until developers come along, by building an interchange with Racetrack Road. So, you either go through Bartram Park and sit, or take San Jose and sit.

9B is not necessary, mass transit is. JTA buses do not go into St. Johns County at all, and that's likely part of the problem. St. johns County has ZERO mass transit options, and building another highway is not the answer. You have a perfectly fine and easily accessible railroad track adjacent to main road in the county that can be utilized.

The way the communities in the northern part of St. Johns and southern Duval are built or spread far apart to not even utilize connectivity. BPB is NOT an example of connectivity in action. I've said it before and will say it again, connectivity via a street grid can do wonders.

Take Oklahoma City for example. They have a perfect grid pattern, and to travel from Norman to downtown OKC using city streets alone takes only about 45 minutes for a 20 mile trip, roughly the same distance from most locations in northern St. Johns to downtown Jacksonville. Part of the problem though is our greatest asset, the river.

stjr

October 13, 2009, 04:19:17 PM
you'll realize how useless 9B is.


Now correct me if I am wrong but was the new 295 interchange built with the intention to have 9b? If so would that not make it necessary? I would suggest anyone who has seen the interchange at Old St. Aug rd and 95 in the morning would know that folks in St. Johns county need a way to get out of the county rather than Bartram Park Blvd.  And before everyone goes and tells me about public transportation, have you met the people of N St. Johns county?  I love them, but they are not getting on bus, train, or a hovercraft. They are getting in an SUV and going to work.  9b becomes pretty necessary when you consider that.

Welcome, St. Auggie.  I hope my response below doesn't run you off, it's just how I see it versus how you see it. No offense.

People moved to St. Johns County based on the roads presently there.  They have I-95, US 1, and SR-13.  This is the problem with urban sprawl.  It feeds on itself, never catching up with its demands.  We can build 9B but you will be back in a few years complaining that, after the growth it creates is manifested, that you still need more ways out of St. Johns.  Of course, the Outer Beltway is being justified already in anticipation of this growth.

Just look to Jax or any other well established city, and you will see this is a never ending cycle.  Where does it end is the question.  Until a different approach is taken, we will be building these roads, FOLLOWING growth, forever, and you will never find satisfaction.  Mass transit is the key to getting off this treadmill.

As to the I-295 interchange depending on 9B, I have never heard that before this thread.  The I-295/I-95 interchange was possibly 30 or more years in the making.  I don't think you will find the concept of 9B going back anywhere near that far.  Regardless, I don't see where that effect comes in so someone will have to explain it.  The I-295/I-95 is a full blown interchange, possibly the largest in Northeast Florida.

Old St. Augustine Road is entirely in Duval County and I don't see that as ever having been a major viable conduit for many St. Johns County residents.  For what its worth, the real problem with St. Augustine Road, like JTB/I95 and so many other area interchanges, is that FDOT builds cheap diamond or half-diamond interchanges requiring traffic lights instead of full interchanges without lights.  When traffic overwhelms them, FDOT claims it's too expensive to buy back all the surrounding developed land they could have had for peanuts when the interchange was first built in the middle of nowhere.  Once again, a broken system.

To be candid, St. Johns County residents should live closer to their jobs in Duval if they don't like the traffic in St. Johns.  If more people exercised this privilege, we wouldn't have urban sprawl and would have viable mass transit.  Whether 9B and/or the Outer Beltway gets built, when the tens of thousands of new homes get built on all those Nocatee-like DRI's on former St. Johns County timberlands, you will be really howling about traffic (and probably overcrowded schools, etc.).  Then what?

By the way, why don't you hold the developers accountable for selling you a home they know you will ultimately be sitting in traffic for when they finish building out their tracts?  Buyer beware.

Tripoli1711

October 13, 2009, 04:19:57 PM
I do not inherently hate projects such as 9B.  I think in this instance it is not the right time or the right priority.  I also believe that our development in the sprawl areas is too often haphazardly done and that is the reason for the justifiable skepticism regarding 9B.  I think we should work to improve density in the urban core before we consider creating a catalyst to sprawl.  However, certain people will never have any inclination to live in dense urban developments.  The reason sprawl is so pervasive is because low density single family homes are wildly popular.  Once mass transit and other initiatives frequently discussed here have been implemented, it is likely a road such as this will be needed as natural population growth will demand it. 

Once built, it should be built "all-in".  I agree with the criticism regarding 9A.  I think 9A is a fantastic road and I am glad it was built, but it should have been built 6 lanes from the word "go".  That is one thing I always noticed in South Florida years ago when I visited often.  In many of their areas of "sprawl", their main arteries were 6 lanes even though it appeared unnecessary.  I assume this was because they recognized that in a few years the population of the area would justify 6 lanes, and it would be a much larger undertaking of time and money to expand.

I guess what I am trying to say is I am very hesitant to dismiss highway projects out of hand.  They will always be necessary because there will always be thousands of people who want to live in suburbia or exurbia.  I am a product of suburbia.  I would rather build mass transit and spur development in the core, even though I do not live there.  I recognize the benefit to the community at large of doing this.  But I am in the minority.  We cannot hope to eliminate sprawl any more than we can hope to eliminate population growth or people like my dad who would never live where his lot was less than 1/3 acre.  What we must do is demand responsibility from our officials regarding where the sprawl is directed and how it will impact our overall transportation landscape.

tufsu1

October 13, 2009, 04:39:23 PM
Now correct me if I am wrong but was the new 295 interchange built with the intention to have 9b? If so would that not make it necessary?

from what I understand rom FDOT, you are correct.

stjr

October 13, 2009, 06:42:15 PM
I went back to a few Times Union archived articles on 9B (1997 is the furthest back they seem to make available) and found the following interesting tidbits:

1) Another politically connected player showed up in 2004 with Gate's purchase of land near 9B.

2) It appears that anything regarding 9B south of I-95 wasn't even conceived of until 1997 so, certainly, none of this could be related to justifying a fix for I-95/I-295.

3) No surprise, future mass transit corridor accommodations are nonexistent.

4) Scott Clem, a current JTA manager, apparently didn't mind dinging Jax while working previously for St. Johns County.  He just made the point that all transportation comes down to politics, not the common good.  Again, no surprise here.


Quote
[1-23-2004]
The state Department of Transportation on Thursday kicked off a study that will pick a St. Johns County route for Florida 9B, the $206 million highway that will give Julington Creek residents a faster connection to Interstate 95...

...Clem said the county wants to see construction of Florida 9B start sooner and will try to obtain right of way for the Race Track Road relocation to hasten the process. Most of that part of northern St. Johns County is undeveloped land that's in the Cummer Trust. Last week, Gate Petroleum Co. announced it has contracted to buy the 5,460-acre tract.

Gate Petroleum's move to buy the land is the latest large-scale real estate transaction in northern St. Johns County. Florida 9B will help handle the increased traffic, said Ed Lehman, director of growth management at the Northeast Florida Regional Planning Council.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012304/met_14616154.shtml

Quote
[5-17-1997]
Now Commissioner Pal Howell has asked the state to use that money in his northwest county district to buy the land for his road plan, which advocates extending the proposed Florida 9B highway from its suggested end point at Interstate 95 all the way south to Race Track Road.

Howell made the request May 9 in a letter to Ken Morefield, the DOT's district secretary, even though he admits it is a long shot.


Florida 9B will run from the Interstate 295/Interstate 95 merger south to U.S. 1, then connect to I-95 just south of Bayard when it is done sometime in the next decade. Howell wants the state to extend that highway eight-tenths-of-a-mile farther south and hook up to Race Track Road to give his constituents access to the interstate.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/051797/BBB___A1.html

Quote
[5-26-2006] David Anderson, project engineer, said DOT's consultant, HNTB Corp. of Jacksonville, offered 24 separate corridor options but later narrowed it to six....

...One interested browser, Louise Thrower of Fruit Cove, said she didn't see any provisions for mass transit.

"I want to know where their monorail and mass transit lanes are," she said.


http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/052606/nes_21960293.shtml

Quote
[4-9-2003]
A political tug-of-war has developed among four Northeast Florida counties over who can form metropolitan planning organizations, which control thousands of highway dollars and make key recommendations on projects that affect motorists every day.

Jacksonville has its own organization that encompasses parts of Clay and St. Johns counties but wants to expand to include all of St. Johns.

However, St. Johns officials want to go on their own, saying they would have more control over transportation projects and get more money for such projects with their own organization. They say they'll never get a fair shake from the existing First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization because its staff members are also Jacksonville city employees.

"I find it hard to believe that they can be totally impartial when their boss is the [Jacksonville] mayor," said Scott Clem, director of growth management services for St. Johns County.[/b]

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/040903/met_planning.shtml

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 06:48:04 PM
Gate is connected somehow, I'm shocked!






Not really

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:16:17 PM
So what if Gate wanted to purchase 35,000 acres between Jax. and St. Aug.  If you had the money, you would want to make investments too.   An investment was made.   If you do not like Gate, shop at Kangaroo.  The gas at Kangaroo is liberal.  The gas at Gate is conservative.  If people get angry with Metro Jax., and the opinions people have, get help at Charter.  If you don't get help there, get help somewhere.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:22:40 PM
A JTA to St. Aug. round trip bus route makes since too. 4 times a day sounds about right.  Maybe more or less, depending on the need.  We still need 9B.  A bus route will not solve future infrastructure needs of Northeast Florida.  What would Mr. Flagler do.  He would build a train.  woops, he did.  "Are people shocked, or not really" still w/ Mr. Flagler. 
 

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 08:23:08 PM
Liberal and conservative gas stations. Wow, you really are a dumbass troll.

stjr

October 13, 2009, 08:34:51 PM
As to British Shoe, he/she seems to be here just to rile us up.  Hard to take seriously.  I've seen this type of poster on other boards.  They just crave attention and will say anything outrageous to get it.[/b]

Reednavy, I would like to repeat my previous advice regarding British Shoe.  I think it is becoming more apparent with every post he/she makes, that I pegged this poster correctly.  Other than to suggest other posters stay clear of responding, I wouldn't pay the aptly titled "BS" any more heed.

The gas at Kangaroo is liberal.  The gas at Gate is conservative.  If people get angry with Metro Jax., and the opinions people have, get help at Charter.  If you don't get help there, get help somewhere.

Perhaps some of us should follow the advice we dispense to others.  ;)

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:45:07 PM
Are yall Mr. Wrestling #1, and #2?  I think you are intitled to your opinions, and I was trying to add a little humer with the  Kangaroo statement.  In fact it is really a French owned  company.  I do not shop at Citco.  I hope you guys do not drive 50 miles to fill up on Hugo's gas!

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:45:41 PM
Liberal and conservative gas stations. Wow, you really are a dumbass troll.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:46:08 PM
Gate is connected somehow, I'm shocked!






Not really

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:47:07 PM
reed bible talkl, gibberish or otherwise is just as good as any other talk, gibberish or otherwise.  It doesnt break the rules of our forums anywhere near the incivility of telling people to shut up, or demean their religion.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:52:03 PM
reednavy, and stjr, I am sure you are both good people.  I know Mr. Wrestling #1, and Mr. Wrestling #2, and you two are not them.

NACHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:53:51 PM
again, I think it is valuable to have different viewpoints/opinions on this site.
We never said it wasn't valuable, it's jsut that if you have half a brain, you'll realize how useless 9B is.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 08:57:44 PM
"incivility of telling people to shut up, or demean their religion."

That includes name calling.  This is not fantasy football!

Ocklawaha

October 13, 2009, 09:42:24 PM


A JTA to St. Aug. round trip bus route makes since too. 4 times a day sounds about right.  Maybe more or less, depending on the need.  We still need 9B.  A bus route will not solve future infrastructure needs of Northeast Florida.  What would Mr. Flagler do.  He would build a train.  woops, he did.  "Are people shocked, or not really" still w/ Mr. Flagler. 

Flagler didn't build a railroad from Jacksonville to St. Augustine, or from Tocoi to St. Augustine, or from Jacksonville to Pablo Beach and Mayport, or from St. Augustine to Palatka... He simply bought them and widened them to standard gauge and upgraded the roadbeds. Fact is, had they not tried to sucker him into over charges, he probably would have never considered the railroad business.

Your 4 bus plan, would hardly make a dent and as labor is 75% of transit cost, you would do better with more frequency's, as in 8 hour days x 2. It doesn't need to be JTA, it should be Sunshine Bus, which is St. Johns County/St. Augustines own national news grabbing transit of excellence! They interchange with JTA at both Ponte Vedra and the Avenues. However since we agree that traffic is a problem for St. Johns residents, consider the Rail Diesel Car or RDC. Dallas has a fleet of them completely rebuilt, they have even offered to send a few to us so we can try them out! (Don't ask, but a small bird told me that). An RDC is completely self contained, a one car train, bigger then a city bus, able to run in multiples and doesn't stop at traffic lights or back up when there is a wreck on 95. (SEE PHOTO)


9B is not necessary, mass transit is. JTA buses do not go into St. Johns County at all, and that's likely part of the problem. St. johns County has ZERO mass transit options, and building another highway is not the answer. You have a perfectly fine and easily accessible railroad track adjacent to main road in the county that can be utilized.

The way the communities in the northern part of St. Johns and southern Duval are built or spread far apart to not even utilize connectivity. BPB is NOT an example of connectivity in action. I've said it before and will say it again, connectivity via a street grid can do wonders.

Take Oklahoma City for example. They have a perfect grid pattern, and to travel from Norman to downtown OKC using city streets alone takes only about 45 minutes for a 20 mile trip, roughly the same distance from most locations in northern St. Johns to downtown Jacksonville. Part of the problem though is our greatest asset, the river.

So right about the railroad AND San Jose, from my perch in WGV, that track looks sweeter every time I cross it! Use it? You bet I would, sign me up for a lifetime pass.

A lot of folks on here are complaining about the construction of a street grid, since it's in the pine woods, it's all sprawl. With Bartram, Nocatee, Flagler, World Golf, and a dozen more communities, is it any wonder that new four lane roads are being put down everywhere. Even 16 is being 4 laned, and the intersection of 13 and 16 is about to get the same treatment. You are right about the river being a big part of the problem, neither 16 nor 16A runs direct from St. Augustine to the Shands Bridge, due to TROUT CREEK! So the roads either twist north of the creek or south. The same things happen with the San Sebastian, 6 mile creek, Julington Creek etc... This isn't Oklahoma anymore TOTO! (Pssst the creeks have WATER in them!)

I understand you are the weather guy? If so, did you have to attend that horrible school down in Norman? Poor thing, I'm hear by extending my hand of friendship and sympathy, whilst wearing my Orange and Black TEE! GO POKES! It's Bedlam, I knew you'd understand.




Still a lot to see, if you know where to look!

Oklahoma City does have a great road and highway system, but the original alignment's followed the Oklahoma Electric Railway. Ever eat at Interurban Grill in Norman? Yeah, THAT railroad, Norman-OKC-Guthrie, as well as OKC-Yukon-El Reno, plus about 15 local lines downtown, Classen (follow the high tension poles), Penn, even some track left along the Union Pacific north of the old car barns north of Stockyards off Reno. There was an electric freight bypass from there to 39Th st. where it headed west to Yukon. The Interurban station is still standing in Yukon, next to the little rail museum.

More interesting for the BONE HEADED Jacksonville BRT planners, is this fact, when OKC shifted from Electric Railway, to the most modern bus system in the Southwest, ridership fell by 97%. NO KIDDING


OCKLAWAHA

civil42806

October 13, 2009, 10:13:46 PM
So what if Gate wanted to purchase 35,000 acres between Jax. and St. Aug.  If you had the money, you would want to make investments too.   An investment was made.   If you do not like Gate, shop at Kangaroo.  The gas at Kangaroo is liberal.  The gas at Gate is conservative.  If people get angry with Metro Jax., and the opinions people have, get help at Charter.  If you don't get help there, get help somewhere.

good lord what a fool

thelakelander

October 13, 2009, 10:18:03 PM
Guys, lets keep these debates civil.  No personal insults or name calling needed.  If British Shoe Company likes 9B and sprawl, that's his right.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 10:22:56 PM


A JTA to St. Aug. round trip bus route makes since too. 4 times a day sounds about right.  Maybe more or less, depending on the need.  We still need 9B.  A bus route will not solve future infrastructure needs of Northeast Florida.  What would Mr. Flagler do.  He would build a train.  woops, he did.  "Are people shocked, or not really" still w/ Mr. Flagler. 

Flagler didn't build a railroad from Jacksonville to St. Augustine, or from Tocoi to St. Augustine, or from Jacksonville to Pablo Beach and Mayport, or from St. Augustine to Palatka... He simply bought them and widened them to standard gauge and upgraded the roadbeds. Fact is, had they not tried to sucker him into over charges, he probably would have never considered the railroad business.

Your 4 bus plan, would hardly make a dent and as labor is 75% of transit cost, you would do better with more frequency's, as in 8 hour days x 2. It doesn't need to be JTA, it should be Sunshine Bus, which is St. Johns County/St. Augustines own national news grabbing transit of excellence! They interchange with JTA at both Ponte Vedra and the Avenues. However since we agree that traffic is a problem for St. Johns residents, consider the Rail Diesel Car or RDC. Dallas has a fleet of them completely rebuilt, they have even offered to send a few to us so we can try them out! (Don't ask, but a small bird told me that). An RDC is completely self contained, a one car train, bigger then a city bus, able to run in multiples and doesn't stop at traffic lights or back up when there is a wreck on 95. (SEE PHOTO)


9B is not necessary, mass transit is. JTA buses do not go into St. Johns County at all, and that's likely part of the problem. St. johns County has ZERO mass transit options, and building another highway is not the answer. You have a perfectly fine and easily accessible railroad track adjacent to main road in the county that can be utilized.

The way the communities in the northern part of St. Johns and southern Duval are built or spread far apart to not even utilize connectivity. BPB is NOT an example of connectivity in action. I've said it before and will say it again, connectivity via a street grid can do wonders.

Take Oklahoma City for example. They have a perfect grid pattern, and to travel from Norman to downtown OKC using city streets alone takes only about 45 minutes for a 20 mile trip, roughly the same distance from most locations in northern St. Johns to downtown Jacksonville. Part of the problem though is our greatest asset, the river.

So right about the railroad AND San Jose, from my perch in WGV, that track looks sweeter every time I cross it! Use it? You bet I would, sign me up for a lifetime pass.

A lot of folks on here are complaining about the construction of a street grid, since it's in the pine woods, it's all sprawl. With Bartram, Nocatee, Flagler, World Golf, and a dozen more communities, is it any wonder that new four lane roads are being put down everywhere. Even 16 is being 4 laned, and the intersection of 13 and 16 is about to get the same treatment. You are right about the river being a big part of the problem, neither 16 nor 16A runs direct from St. Augustine to the Shands Bridge, due to TROUT CREEK! So the roads either twist north of the creek or south. The same things happen with the San Sebastian, 6 mile creek, Julington Creek etc... This isn't Oklahoma anymore TOTO! (Pssst the creeks have WATER in them!)

I understand you are the weather guy? If so, did you have to attend that horrible school down in Norman? Poor thing, I'm hear by extending my hand of friendship and sympathy, whilst wearing my Orange and Black TEE! GO POKES! It's Bedlam, I knew you'd understand.




Still a lot to see, if you know where to look!

Oklahoma City does have a great road and highway system, but the original alignment's followed the Oklahoma Electric Railway. Ever eat at Interurban Grill in Norman? Yeah, THAT railroad, Norman-OKC-Guthrie, as well as OKC-Yukon-El Reno, plus about 15 local lines downtown, Classen (follow the high tension poles), Penn, even some track left along the Union Pacific north of the old car barns north of Stockyards off Reno. There was an electric freight bypass from there to 39Th st. where it headed west to Yukon. The Interurban station is still standing in Yukon, next to the little rail museum.

More interesting for the BONE HEADED Jacksonville BRT planners, is this fact, when OKC shifted from Electric Railway, to the most modern bus system in the Southwest, ridership fell by 97%. NO KIDDING


OCKLAWAHA

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 10:30:51 PM
I will respect others opinions.   I will not be peer/stranger pressued in to changing mind about 9B.  I think that you folks against 9B need to either accept 9B, or take your time, which would be better spent anonymously shooting out insults, and go before the county commissioners, and voice your objections.

As Archie Bunker would say. "Good night nurse"

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 10:32:08 PM
Will it benefit congestion?

When will construction begin?

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 10:35:03 PM
I believe it will help congestion. 

Does anybody know when construction will start? 

Has bidding for the project been done?

If so, who will do the job?

How much Federal funding will the project get?

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 11:07:35 PM
It will help congestion, for a few years, then devlopers will come in and take that away.

Construction is still well over a year away.

Bids? Blueprints haven't even been completed for the project, so bidding is still months away, likely next spring.

Federal funding? They're(FDOT) using leftover Stimulus dollars to build the project. Which, IMO, is a waste of funds. 9B was not, or at least shouldn't have been a high priority project.

British Shoe Company

October 13, 2009, 11:38:01 PM
It's better to take the Federal Funds, than to give them back.  Florida needs the Federal money.  It is money better spent in Florida than that bridge in ALASKA serving hundreds of people!

I hope I spelled everything to your satisfaction.

 

thelakelander

October 13, 2009, 11:44:21 PM
I doubt 9B achieves much, other than creating visual access to undeveloped land.  Congestion isn't that bad to warrant the construction of a short expressway that runs parallel to an existing facility that could be easily widened if needed.  Looking across the region, if congestion were really an issue, there are a lot of gridlocked highways in the First Coast that should be a higher priority.

In any event, be leery of "free" federal money.  That's how we got the skyway and its been a blood sucker ever since with no end of increasing ridership or turning its profitability around in sight anytime soon.

reednavy

October 13, 2009, 11:46:58 PM
They should've used the funds to go to a new Shands Bridge, one that is wider, has shoulders, and higher. The higher part because that'd open up the Port of Palatka for much more business.

stjr

October 13, 2009, 11:54:29 PM
I doubt 9B achieves much, other than creating visual access to undeveloped land.  Congestion isn't that bad to warrant the construction of a short expressway that runs parallel to an existing facility that could be easily widened if needed.  Looking across the region, if congestion were really an issue, there are a lot of gridlocked highways in the First Coast that should be a higher priority.

In any event, be leery of "free" federal money.  That's how we got the skyway and its been a blood sucker ever since with no end of increasing ridership or turning its profitability around in sight anytime soon.

Here, here!  Lake.  Tally ho!  Perfectly said across the board.

They should've used the funds to go to a new Shands Bridge, one that is wider, has shoulders, and higher. The higher part because that'd open up the Port of Palatka for much more business.

Or, toward street cars, commuter rail, and/or bus shelters!  Anything but 9B.

reednavy

October 22, 2009, 11:30:56 PM
I was thinking, this will be a traffic clusterf*ck right away.

The portion where 9B merges into 9A, unless they add another lane all the way to JTB, forget about it. That will be a traffic backup every morning as people try to merge and speed up. People in this town can't merge or use a turn signal to save their lives, so you dang well know 9A & 9B junction is going to be a madhouse.

Jason

October 23, 2009, 09:32:30 AM
Based on my experience with the intersection of I95/I295/9A, there is very little traffic that uses 9A east from south of town.  I'd say that 80-90% of the northbound traffic (SJC residents) all head straight up I95 into town.

Once 9B is connected to Racetrack Road there may be a shift but until then I wouldn't expect 9B to carry much traffic at all.  Hell, I'd go so far as to say that once the Racetrack road connection is made the vast majority of the traffic will still head north on I95 to the Southpoint area (via JTB) or to downtown.

seadog

October 23, 2009, 10:20:36 AM
9-B is to support the west side of Nocatee, connect to the thru route of the toll road, access Durbin Crossing, Rivertown. etal, when all the highway const. maps are connected it makes sense.
Vision 50 years, not next week !

JeffreyS

October 23, 2009, 03:28:57 PM
I sure am glad we let developers like those at Nacotee we will speend billions on their sprawl.

Ocklawaha

October 23, 2009, 06:27:49 PM

The answer to the question is 8,000 containers +/- a couple.

It's all about the port, that's why it's not even really SR 9B, it's I-795. While I agree that the whole roadway is not needed now, if the container business perks to the point where we match the projections, as many as 3 MILLION per year, we are in deep poop. I-795 won't save us, but it might be a bandage. More lanes from the Broward Bridge, to I-95 in both directions will be needed quickly if, again IF, IF, IF, the plan plays out. Keeping in mind Miami, has had to turn whore to keep Maersk Line from skipping town. It's no secret that this sea going giant ( http://www.maersklinelimited.com/ ) is VERY unhappy with it's South Florida dockage, and that 300+ mile trip north just to clear containers from Florida probably doesn't help the South Florida port outlook either. Y'all know how much I love highways, so believe me when I say this could go from a future "good problem" IE: jobs, to a sudden "LAND RUSH PROBLEM," if Maersk, does what some pundits predict and move to Jax.

We really do hold the trump cards in this game, Miami, Port Everglades, Port Canaveral, Manatee, or Tampa/Rockport, all have very restrictive transportation problems. Problems so big, BILLION dollar tunnel systems and other wild plans are out there to save them from themselves. Boxed in, long Florida transit time, single railroad access except Miami and Port Everglades, which have dual rail access, but little use. All need major and very expensive infrastructure improvements to compete with our projections, add Maersk, and we are in a league of very few WORLD CITIES. Remember we are not a rent-a-dock port, our new big hitters are building HOME PORTS, they own and operate, which is why the other lines are watching.

So what do we need??

Buy the CSX rail line, former Seaboard from Comodore Point to Yulee.
Rebuild the "S" line. (small change $$)
Lease back the operation to a reformed "Jacksonville Terminal Company" shortline.
open neutral access to all port terminals and some lease backs and/or protections to CSX.
Improve the port expressways with extra lanes, flyovers, and yes, that tiny bit of I-795. I would also consider a 6 - 4 lane extension of Talleyrand, up and across the Trout meeting Zoo Parkway/Hecksher north of Gate. Get off the pot and finally build the old 20Th street expressway, MLK "CORNER," into a proper interchange that dumps the trucks from NW Jax onto Talleyrand.
Lastly on roads, beltline or no, get that Shands bridge out of there, too low and THAT hinders our barge traffic potential, as well as Port Palatka and Port Sanford.
Airport is already ahead of the curve, though I truly believe Cecil, Francis, Imeson, or Lee Field could capture Airship Ventures, Boeing Airship, or Zeppelin Aircraft USA, remember these are STOL aircraft.
Rebuild the Airport/I-95 interchange.

DONE!

WE WIN!


OCKLAWAHA


stjr

October 24, 2009, 11:01:44 PM
I can't wait for all those road-happy St. Johns and Clay residents to run into those 3 million container cargo trucks, Ock.  They think they will have this road and the Outer Beltway all to themselves.

Once again, roads aren't the solution to commuter problems, mass transit is.  It's just when, not if.  That's how I see the vision for the next 50 years.  :)

The sooner, the better.

Ocklawaha

October 24, 2009, 11:19:29 PM
I can't wait for all those road-happy St. Johns and Clay residents to run into those 3 million container cargo trucks, Ock.  They think they will have this road and the Outer Beltway all to themselves.

Once again, roads aren't the solution to commuter problems, mass transit is.  It's just when, not if.  That's how I see the vision for the next 50 years.  :)

The sooner, the better.


"Delta is ready when you are."  The rest of us will have to play catch up, one of the reasons why my needs to be done list, (most of which appeared in Progressive Railroading Magazine - A Blueprint For Jacksonville, last year) is short on highways is the lack of need for more outward expansion. Where we need work both within and outside of the urban area roads, are mostly small projects.  The fact is, the only new segments would be the port gateway road from Talleyrand North to Hecksher, where a highway/rail bridge would really help. Other then that some ramps, flyovers, lane projects and a very small segment of I-795, which according to Hoyle, doesn't even need an exit between 9-A (I-295), 9-B (I-795) and I-95 South.

We also have some small filler type work we could do near the urban center to make the current road system more user friendly. Matthews to I-95, Commodore Point Expressway to Southside, with limited access and service roads to JTB, Shand's Bridge, Emerson Connector, Streetlights on the expressways...etc.

Keep an eye on the "Florida-Georgia Parkway," a long forgotten expressway from the 1960's planned by Southern States, to tie Kansas City and Jax. Today some segments are done, Georgia, is about to launch on the South Georgia portion, Albany - Columbus area, and Albany - Valdosta. Meanwhile the whole of Birmingham - Memphis - Springfield - Kansas City, is becoming I-22. Somehow we seem to have forgotten the project, and I-22 is now pointing toward Savannah, while the dead end of the Parkway is aimed at Valdosta/I-75. Because of grain movements and Powder River Coal from WY, we'd be foolish to ignore this as an opportunity for industrial and port gain.

Everything else is public transportation, transit, pure and simple.


OCKLAWAHA

Charles Hunter

October 24, 2009, 11:34:24 PM
Ock - looking at GoogleMaps - it seems your Talleyrand extension to Heckscher would either go thru the Zoo or Gate's concrete facility.  Good luck with that.

Mathews to I-95?  Making State/Union expressways? Elevated on top of or between them?

And doesn't making it easier to get around by car within the city make it harder for transit to make inroads (sorry).

Ocklawaha

October 24, 2009, 11:54:35 PM
Ock - looking at GoogleMaps - it seems your Talleyrand extension to Heckscher would either go thru the Zoo or Gate's concrete facility.  Good luck with that.

Mathews to I-95?  Making State/Union expressways? Elevated on top of or between them?

And doesn't making it easier to get around by car within the city make it harder for transit to make inroads (sorry).

Boy it didn't take you long to bite on this one my friend! Right through the middle of civic minded GATE CONCRETE, 4 lanes of shimmering highway, as far as the eye can see! Truth is, there was a railroad bridge (ACL) that crossed there which is why if you look at the aerials you can see the right of way, and the extension into the Trout from the northside. I think it would be doable without really upsetting the balance too much, lots of empty space on the north of their current yard.

Remember that "wasteland" between USG, and the old Phosphate Terminal is going to be a huge bulk facility for Keystone, COLOMBIAN COAL. It's bad enough that we have tank farms, chemical tank trucks, gypsum, and paper loads on Buffalo Avenue or Evergreen, Just imagine when it's all developed out!

Not State and Union, I would more or less create a funnel to shift northbound and northwest bound Matthews and Hart traffic up the MLK, Spiff up the Arlington Expressway into State and Union, and knock down the ramps all through the stadium area (Hart) providing transit lanes and surface parkways.

On the last question, it's a yes and no answer. IF we really see 3 million containers pouring out of the Port, we better have some major road fixes in place. If the Port falters, then not so important, consider also that every new or improved roadway can be made over with transit built in. Simple economics of expensive fuel will drive down the auto traffic, at the same time a few well chosen cutoff's, ramps, and flyovers, could save us a bunch of fuel. Considering that highways don't move people from point A to B, they move autos.


OCKLAWAHA

Charles Hunter

October 25, 2009, 12:03:50 AM
Good answers.
And I am sure Gate would just donate the land!  :D  Perhaps in exchange for an exclusive contract to supply all the concrete for all these projects! 

British Shoe Company

October 28, 2009, 07:49:13 PM
9B is not a pie in the sky project.  Why do educated people think it's not going to be constructed.  If anyone has a way to improve it, share it with the Metro Jax members, and the powers that be.  If suggestions are taken, and acted on,  you can go down in history as the "Man who made 9B better"

If you want to profit from 9B, open a Hot Dog stand to feed the workers building it!

north miami

October 28, 2009, 08:16:08 PM
"Florida-Georgia Parkway"- John Delaney made brief mention during his term....perfectly timed during major public fear event;hurricane threat and hope for government 'answer' to saving ourselves and key 'driver' behind so many road proposals....'evacuation'.

Reviewing these posts and the common reference to 'evacuation' reminds me of the need to evacuate (...leave the region...) sooner than later.

tufsu1

October 28, 2009, 09:38:33 PM
The Florida Georgia Parkway already exists...its called US 19 or Georgia 300

And I highly doubt there will be a new interstate in SW Georgia....although GDOT does have a feasibility study underway

Ocklawaha

October 28, 2009, 10:13:56 PM
The Florida Georgia Parkway already exists...its called US 19 or Georgia 300

And I highly doubt there will be a new interstate in SW Georgia....although GDOT does have a feasibility study underway

You might be too young to recall the 1960's proposals, maps, etc... on this "first ever" multimodal interstate - railroad - pipeline - utilities (which today would be fiber optics) corridor. There were several major announcements and articles, I recall Charles Hunter (I think), and I spoke about it a couple of times, and he too recalled seeing the articles. This was to be a Southern State Thing of some sort to link the Port of Jacksonville, with Kansas City, via an airline style route.

My contention is, of ALL of the stupid, smart, middle ground, so - so, cool, dumb, etc... ideas to pop up for Jacksonville roadways and multimodalism, this was a gem. If it was Charles that mentioned he recalled it, I searched for days for some reference and couldn't find a damn thing, I believe he had the same experience. Wonder if the TU has something?? STEPHENDARE? Where are you?

I recently drove the whole route, most of which is now with big loud signs that say, "FUTURE I-22 CORRIDOR" or "FLORIDA - GEORGIA PARKWAY" or both! It is a beautiful expressway from Memphis-Birmingham. Also from about Springfield - 20 miles or so into North Arkansas, some fantastic Ozark scenes. Mammoth Springs, is well worth the stop, check out the park and history museum.

THIS is really the only major expressway type highway I would get on a chair and cheer for! It would just make us the most friendly export terminal on the entire Atlantic Seaboard for American grains. The route includes miles on miles of rice, wheat, and some corn, slate, lead, limestone, lumber, Mississippi Riverport items from Memphis, Iron and Steel, peaches and Mellon's. Jaxport would simply explode with growth.

Tufsu1, Charles, let me know if y'all or Lakelander, find any shed of information on this project. The other missing project, was in the time of private passenger trains, a concept the DOT called AUTO-TRAIN which they wanted to experiment with between Jacksonville and New York, Chicago, Atlanta, etc... I think we all know what happened to that dream, it followed Mickey. 


OCKLAWAHA

stjr

October 29, 2009, 12:14:30 AM
Ock, this was interesting to find under possible future interstates in a Wikipedia article.  Doesn't look like the folks in Alabama or Georgia (supporting the Savannah port!) are asleep at the wheel.

Quote
Congressionally designated future Interstates

Main article: Interstate 22

Interstate 22 is the new number for current US 78 between Memphis, Tennessee, and Birmingham, Alabama. Most of the freeway has been built. Signage has been installed designating it as a future Interstate as of 2005[update], and completion is expected by 2011, with the final interchange being built with the highways I-65 and US 31 in Birmingham by 2012. This is expected to be the largest and most expensive highway interchange in Alabama with over 14 different bridges. When complete, Birmingham will be designated as a control city for four Interstate routes (20, 22, 59 and 65).


Quote
Other proposals

Main article: Interstate 3


The 3rd Infantry Division Highway was proposed in the 2005 highway funding bill (Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users) to run from Savannah, Georgia, north via Augusta, to Knoxville, Tennessee. Although the corridor has not been designated by law or any official body as a proposed Interstate, Interstate 3 is its popular name.[6] This number does not fit into the Interstate Highway numbering system, but matches the name chosen to honor the US Army Third Infantry Division. The proposed highway faces local opposition from groups like Stop I-3.

Main article: Interstate 14

The 14th Amendment Highway was proposed in the 2005 highway funding bill (Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users) to run from Augusta, Georgia, through Macon, Columbus, Montgomery, Meridian, Jackson to end in Natchez, Mississippi or Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Although the corridor has not been designated by law or any official body as a proposed Interstate, Interstate 14 is its popular name.[6] This number fits into the Interstate Highway numbering system, and matches the name chosen to honor the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Interstate_Highways#Interstate_22

reednavy

October 29, 2009, 12:20:43 AM
Ugh the I-65 and I-22 junction is an absolute f*cking nightmare and mess right now.

Also, can we just continue the numbering system in use right now, and not this in honor or crap. I-22 makes sense, being between I-20/59 and I-24. I-3, that makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

Ocklawaha

October 29, 2009, 12:28:06 AM
Ock, this was interesting to find under possible future interstates in a Wikipedia article.  Doesn't look like the folks in Alabama or Georgia (supporting the Savannah port!) are asleep at the wheel.

Quote
Congressionally designated future Interstates

Main article: Interstate 22

Interstate 22 is the new number for current US 78 between Memphis, Tennessee, and Birmingham, Alabama. Most of the freeway has been built. Signage has been installed designating it as a future Interstate as of 2005[update], and completion is expected by 2011, with the final interchange being built with the highways I-65 and US 31 in Birmingham by 2012. This is expected to be the largest and most expensive highway interchange in Alabama with over 14 different bridges. When complete, Birmingham will be designated as a control city for four Interstate routes (20, 22, 59 and 65).


Quote
Other proposals

Main article: Interstate 3


The 3rd Infantry Division Highway was proposed in the 2005 highway funding bill (Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users) to run from Savannah, Georgia, north via Augusta, to Knoxville, Tennessee. Although the corridor has not been designated by law or any official body as a proposed Interstate, Interstate 3 is its popular name.[6] This number does not fit into the Interstate Highway numbering system, but matches the name chosen to honor the US Army Third Infantry Division. The proposed highway faces local opposition from groups like Stop I-3.

Main article: Interstate 14

The 14th Amendment Highway was proposed in the 2005 highway funding bill (Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users) to run from Augusta, Georgia, through Macon, Columbus, Montgomery, Meridian, Jackson to end in Natchez, Mississippi or Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Although the corridor has not been designated by law or any official body as a proposed Interstate, Interstate 14 is its popular name.[6] This number fits into the Interstate Highway numbering system, and matches the name chosen to honor the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Interstate_Highways#Interstate_22

Exactly stjr, that's why this old article or series of articles and a bunch of hype are so under me skin! WTF did we do to suddenly vanish off the radar? Savannah? Really? JaxPort and COJ should cozy up to GADOT and ALDOT, do whatever the hell it takes to get this back the way it was originally announced... Then again, NONE OF US can find any trace of the original announcements. Keep in mind this was an EARLY MultiModal concept corridor, maybe one of the first.

OCKLAWAHA

north miami

October 29, 2009, 05:52:56 AM

Florida-Georgia Parkway

What great positioning,employing the term "Parkway"

In today's world it is much more difficult to draw a line across a wide swath on a map and create such a facility.

Clay county/Reinhold Corp. attempts at such is case in point only referenced here due to proximity and recent (predictive) events- consider the long established route, a graceful arc, as established matter of public record/comp plan maps relative to what the meandering "preferred"/"selected" route is,or might be.And Reinhold attempts to staighten out the meander by commimg back to the Ravines,which have become coveted state conservation lands,failed despite high end pressure tactics.
Or consider another varient of the "Beltway"-at one time morphed in to Jax/Tampa...Gainesville area community and environmental interests fought the proposal - public hearings then shifted towards Palatka,which gave the project the expected warm embrace.....however the roadway was no longer oriented on the compass rose towards....Tampa.

It would be interesting to see a Florida-Georgia Parkway proposal impact Florida Times Union's Ron Littlepage place in Georgia....put the median right through the deer stand and see the FTU address a road proposal like never before.

We take a stand according to where we sit. 'NIMBY' is appropriate- the problem for the road builders is there are now so many back Yards.It's called 'growth'.You got it!

"It seems evident that none of the present models of public policy development provide the continuity,wide responsivness,and regard for all relevant information that is required for governance,nor do they often fully utilize sources of relevant information"   L.K.Caldwell "People Pressure and Environmental Consequences
                              ************     1 9 8 5    ***********

Onward
P.S.- Clay county,WITHOUT CONSOLODATED FORM OF GOVERNMENT, sure was 'bold' and 'visionary' in 'county wide application' (Rick Mullaney's terms) with it's early 70's beltway promotion.Of course related was Gulfstream/Argyle on the Clay-Duval border.

tufsu1

October 29, 2009, 08:02:51 AM
There were lots of projects called for in the SAFETEA-LU legislation that will never happen....and I am pretty darn sure that I-3 and I-14 are two of them!

As for I-22, parts of it will be built....but the connection from Birmingahm to Jacksonville will show very little demand....what is needed is a connection between I-10 and I-65 in the Florida panhandle.

British Shoe Company

October 31, 2009, 09:58:29 PM
It will be so nice to get  from point A. to point B., and all points in between without red lights, and stop signs.  I cannot wait until it's done.  I know it will take a while, just like 9A.  It will help property values too!

reednavy

February 23, 2010, 05:45:29 PM
Construction officially starts later next month, per CBS 47 via FDOT.

Oh yay! (rolls eyes)

stjr

February 23, 2010, 06:13:10 PM
Sad.  Another worthless urban sprawl project driven by special interests and political favoritism.

As I recall, as least one Outer Beltway option considers tying into 9B.  What does one useless road tied to another useless road get you?  An extra long, useless road.  And, imagine one overcrowded beltway dumping into another one.  Talk about malfunction junction.

Urban sprawl is an endless cancer of the landscape.  Think of all the good these hundreds of millions and billions of dollars could do for us elsewhere in our society.

British Shoe Company

February 23, 2010, 09:27:59 PM
I hope they will not have danger area's like the  mile north of US1 on 9A. 

reednavy

February 23, 2010, 10:52:24 PM
I hope they will not have danger area's like the  mile north of US1 on 9A. 
Ah yes, the death curve.

Besides fixing that, I hope they widen from Philips to JTB, which would do a world of good opening up the road more. It is a nightmare many days on the stretch, both directions.

Ocklawaha

February 24, 2010, 12:37:22 AM
The original I-22 or what was then called the FL-GA Parkway, was never considered a traffic reliever for Jacksonville, nor would it be today. It's economic effects would be far reaching, and fairly "sprawless." Why?
Because it would necessarily tie into the Jacksonville highway grid somewhere in the far northwest side of town, not exactly prime residential lands. The area it would enter, and my guess is, with some research the 20TH Street Expressway out to King's Road, near Grand Crossing, is probably some early project influenced by this parkway.

For all practical purposes THIS ROAD, would follow the Norfolk Southern Railroad between Jacksonville and Valdosta. It would be the most direct route to the American Grain Belt from the Deep South. It's travelers wouldn't be so much Joe Lunchbox, going to work, as it would be Mack the trucker going to Kansas City. If it were built and properly promoted by our Port, we would be in a position to knock the legs out from under all of the American Gulf Coast Ports, and no other Atlantic Port could touch us.

No this is no commuter road, or even a parkway to vacation land, though it COULD become a vacation route, this is a pure cargo and money corridor.


OCKLAWAHA

thelakelander

February 24, 2010, 12:46:03 AM
We're trying to reduce VMTs.  More superhighways only make things worse.  While it would benefit cargo movement and industrial development along nearby rail lines, developers would build the same crap coming to the Outer Beltway along that corridor. Like rail would attract dense development, that type of road investment would also facilitate sprawl in that area.  It would be counterproductive to the fight for sustainability.

Ocklawaha

February 24, 2010, 01:27:36 AM
I don't think it will ever be built, but I would worry about development in that corridor. It's Okefenokee Swamp! What isn't already protected, can't be used when it rains... Just go out to Westlake, or Camp Milton, for a taste of the "squish, squish, sink" in those pastures.

OCKLAWAHA

St. Auggie

February 24, 2010, 08:38:21 AM
I get the outer (outer outer?) beltway contributing to sprawl, but I dont really feel you can make that argument here (9B).  The developments are already being built (Durbing Bartram Park etc) and this runs up to 9A, already fairly developed.  You may feel it is a waste of money, I am neutral on that thought, but the sprawl is already there.

jandar

February 24, 2010, 09:33:04 AM
I get the outer (outer outer?) beltway contributing to sprawl, but I dont really feel you can make that argument here (9B).  The developments are already being built (Durbing Bartram Park etc) and this runs up to 9A, already fairly developed.  You may feel it is a waste of money, I am neutral on that thought, but the sprawl is already there.

[sarcasm]Sprawl is bad, dur. You have to make it go away. There is no working with sprawl. its bad. Ignore it and it will go away[/sarcasm]

Jason

February 24, 2010, 10:30:40 AM
I get the outer (outer outer?) beltway contributing to sprawl, but I dont really feel you can make that argument here (9B).  The developments are already being built (Durbing Bartram Park etc) and this runs up to 9A, already fairly developed.  You may feel it is a waste of money, I am neutral on that thought, but the sprawl is already there.

The Nocatee Parkway, Parkway extension, and connection to Racetrack Rd will be much better served by an interchange and slight realighment at Racetrack and I95.  9B is essentially doing the same thing.

thelakelander

February 24, 2010, 10:37:59 AM
I get the outer (outer outer?) beltway contributing to sprawl, but I dont really feel you can make that argument here (9B).  The developments are already being built (Durbing Bartram Park etc) and this runs up to 9A, already fairly developed.  You may feel it is a waste of money, I am neutral on that thought, but the sprawl is already there.

[sarcasm]Sprawl is bad, dur. You have to make it go away. There is no working with sprawl. its bad. Ignore it and it will go away[/sarcasm]

Reality.  Sprawl can be good if developed right.  Riverside is an example of that.

copperfiend

February 24, 2010, 11:04:31 AM
Is there an updated map?

jandar

February 24, 2010, 12:26:33 PM

Reality.  Sprawl can be good if developed right.  Riverside is an example of that.

This is true.

Overstreet

February 24, 2010, 12:56:16 PM
...........Based on my experience with the intersection of I95/I295/9A, there is very little traffic that uses 9A east from south of town.  I'd say that 80-90% of the northbound traffic (SJC residents) all head straight up I95 into town......................

Not if you work at Mayo, Hecksure drive, Baymeadows, Regency area and points inbetween. Or if you live south and are going to the airport.  Not everybody works downtown.

I often use it to go fishing at Mayport. Much faster than I-95 to Hecksure. WAAAAY better than I-95 to Beach or Atlantic.

Overstreet

February 24, 2010, 01:01:57 PM
................... A good bit of the traffic problem would be releaved, for a few years at least until developers come along, by building an interchange with Racetrack Road. ..............

Cancelled by the FDOT back in the early 90s. Just after they put the rest stop in they tried to put a interchange in at Racetrack and I-95. The problem then was that the  interchange would be too close to the ramps for the rest stop. We all can cite examples of shorter ramps and bad interchanges but the standards have changed since those were installed.

Jason

February 24, 2010, 01:43:24 PM
...........Based on my experience with the intersection of I95/I295/9A, there is very little traffic that uses 9A east from south of town.  I'd say that 80-90% of the northbound traffic (SJC residents) all head straight up I95 into town......................

Not if you work at Mayo, Hecksure drive, Baymeadows, Regency area and points inbetween. Or if you live south and are going to the airport.  Not everybody works downtown.

I often use it to go fishing at Mayport. Much faster than I-95 to Hecksure. WAAAAY better than I-95 to Beach or Atlantic.

It is definitely used, but I was referring to morning commute traffic.

St. Auggie

February 24, 2010, 02:07:49 PM
9B will essentially give you an off ramp at Race Track when completed. 

Jason

February 24, 2010, 02:24:23 PM
That's my point.  Why build a new road to do the job an interchange will do?

reednavy

February 24, 2010, 02:38:28 PM
Cancelled by the FDOT back in the early 90s. Just after they put the rest stop in they tried to put a interchange in at Racetrack and I-95. The problem then was that the  interchange would be too close to the ramps for the rest stop. We all can cite examples of shorter ramps and bad interchanges but the standards have changed since those were installed.
Have you seen what they did on I-10 at Halsema, where a rest area used to be before the Cecil Parkway was built? There tore it down to make way for that interchange, and if FDOT wants an interchange at Racetrack, then they'll do the same.

At the same time, as that area becomes more developed, the need for a rest area will be less and less until FDOT realizes that it isn't necessary anymore. Rest areas are mainly in rural areas, and for good reason. However, with development continuing, the need for the north St. Johns rest area will certainly decline.

Future extensions of 9B do tie an interchange in at or in the vicinity of Racetrack Road and that rest stop, so it will not be there forever.

St. Auggie

February 24, 2010, 02:41:48 PM
That's my point.  Why build a new road to do the job an interchange will do?

I am with you, but I think the whole point of this is someday connect 9b w/ the outer outer beltway.  I know most know the final route has not been chosen, but it was my orginal understanding that this was to also complete that loop.  Since these guys seem h@ll bent on getting the outerest beltway complete I would assume this a big part of it.

Jason

February 24, 2010, 03:06:21 PM
True.  9B is, infact, a part of the outer beltway and will be the easterly terminus.  Yet another reason for scrapping it.

tufsu1

February 24, 2010, 04:42:29 PM
True.  9B is, infact, a part of the outer beltway and will be the easterly terminus.  Yet another reason for scrapping it.

not really....the preferred route for the Outer Beltway hits I-95 between CR 210 and Intl. Golf Pkwy.

the CR 2209 Extension would serve as the connection between 9B and the outer beltway

stjr

February 24, 2010, 05:01:51 PM
True.  9B is, infact, a part of the outer beltway and will be the easterly terminus.  Yet another reason for scrapping it.

not really....the preferred route for the Outer Beltway hits I-95 between CR 210 and Intl. Golf Pkwy.

the CR 2209 Extension would serve as the connection between 9B and the outer beltway

Tufsu, maybe you should update yourself with your friends at FDOT.  They are looking at connecting the Outer Beltway to 9B still according to their comments made to the Times Union:
Quote

The Transportation Department says the road could end at I-95 between County Road 210 and International Golf Parkway. But it is also considering ending it at the future Florida 9B, which is farther north on I-95.

  "Hey we have this piece, let's just connect it to that one.  Oh, and while we are here,  lets go over here and run a road.  Wow, look at that road, wouldn't it be neat to connect to it?  Isn't this fun, connecting all the 'dots' with roads?  Yippeee!"  This is how we get creeping roads that cast an urban sprawl net over square mile after square mile while the public never really had a fair chance to stop or object to the big picture.

tufsu1

February 24, 2010, 05:55:22 PM
stjr...perhaps you should check the project website.

http://www.sjrbridge.com/

you will notice that many alterantives are being studied....Federal rules require that all viable alterantives (including the no-build option) be evaluated in the PD&E study...but you'll notice that the Pink 1 alternative is labeled "locally preferred".

The Public Hearings being held now are the final chance to comment...unless something drastic happens soon, this is what will be forwarded to FHWA for approval.

jandar

February 24, 2010, 06:41:19 PM
...........Based on my experience with the intersection of I95/I295/9A, there is very little traffic that uses 9A east from south of town.  I'd say that 80-90% of the northbound traffic (SJC residents) all head straight up I95 into town......................

Not if you work at Mayo, Hecksure drive, Baymeadows, Regency area and points inbetween. Or if you live south and are going to the airport.  Not everybody works downtown.

I often use it to go fishing at Mayport. Much faster than I-95 to Hecksure. WAAAAY better than I-95 to Beach or Atlantic.

It is definitely used, but I was referring to morning commute traffic.

Morning commute from northbound from I295 onto 9A is decent traffic, and getting worse by the day. There is a curve where everyone, no wreck needed, slows from 65-70mph to 40mph. Same going southbound from SJTC in the afternoon/evenings.

CS Foltz

February 24, 2010, 07:04:00 PM
tufsu..........no one asked my opinion about squat and I see just how this takes place! Oh, lets have a community meeting where 20 people may show up and this is the opinion that is forwarded and that is not right! FDOT is just going through the motions rather than soliciting honest opinion from the community! Any information can be slanted to reflect anyones view and once again this is neither right nor honest! It reflects what is slanted and that is part of the idea of how government is not responsive to the people who pay the bill!! Government questions why the people basically say, government is not responsive or reflective of what the people want? Something is horribly wrong with this picture!

stjr

February 24, 2010, 07:59:09 PM
stjr...perhaps you should check the project website.

http://www.sjrbridge.com/

you will notice that many alterantives are being studied....Federal rules require that all viable alterantives (including the no-build option) be evaluated in the PD&E study...but you'll notice that the Pink 1 alternative is labeled "locally preferred".

The Public Hearings being held now are the final chance to comment...unless something drastic happens soon, this is what will be forwarded to FHWA for approval.

Here is the "purple" route that is clearly connected to 9B:

http://www.sjrbridge.com/10-12-2009/Purple%20Alternative.pdf

Here is the "preferred pink" route that wanders around looking for a place to go as much or more than any other plan:


http://www.sjrbridge.com/10-12-2009/Pink%20Alternatives.pdf

Can someone even remotely explain how this road is going to significantly relieve traffic on any other major existing road?  By the way, note the "planned" urban sprawl creeping in with all the new proposed roads in yellow.  I don't see any thing sacred from developers in these maps.

tufsu1

February 24, 2010, 08:33:49 PM
tufsu..........no one asked my opinion about squat and I see just how this takes place! Oh, lets have a community meeting where 20 people may show up and this is the opinion that is forwarded and that is not right! FDOT is just going through the motions rather than soliciting honest opinion from the community! Any information can be slanted to reflect anyones view and once again this is neither right nor honest! It reflects what is slanted and that is part of the idea of how government is not responsive to the people who pay the bill!! Government questions why the people basically say, government is not responsive or reflective of what the people want? Something is horribly wrong with this picture!

bull..these meetings were highly publicized...and my guess is that residents and businesses in the area of the corridor were mailed notices.

also, the website has been in existence foir many years and you can provide comments through the site...also, you can e-mail the Project Manager and provide your comments...what more do you want?

British Shoe Company

February 28, 2010, 05:47:27 PM
Build it, and we will drive on it.  If you are not in favor of 9B, do not be a hypocrite.  Take the slow road.

reednavy

February 28, 2010, 06:33:30 PM
Explain this we thing.

thelakelander

February 28, 2010, 06:39:12 PM
Any idea about what type of profit 9B will bring?  How will this $170 million road pay for itself without tolls?

CS Foltz

February 28, 2010, 07:06:57 PM
lake.........I would be willing to bet developers are just waiting for the tax paying public to build it, then they will come! They can put toll's on it all they want...........I won't use it or need it...........so just who or what is this road supposed to benefit?

Ocklawaha

February 28, 2010, 07:51:51 PM
So how would you fix it CS? When signs are posted, articles run, mailers go out to all effected businesses and residents, and... 20 people show up?

One cannot hold a project forever in the hopes that someone will get off their good intentions and comment. I've been to these things where the DOT or planning and consultant staff outnumbered the public 20-1.

There was even a meeting a year ago in which FREE fried chicken dinners were served and they still got... 20 people.

This is much more the fault of the general public then the transportation planners.


OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1

February 28, 2010, 10:04:33 PM
lake.........I would be willing to bet developers are just waiting for the tax paying public to build it, then they will come! They can put toll's on it all they want...........I won't use it or need it...........so just who or what is this road supposed to benefit?

CS...please explain how the new developmnt you expect to come would not be lived in or patronized by the "taxpaying public"?

Or, another way to look at is to think of a road funded by St. Johns County taxpayers (they pay gas taxes too you know)....and many of them seem to think its a good idea.

tufsu1

February 28, 2010, 10:06:53 PM
Explain this we thing.

I believe this would be all of us....now I happen to think 9B is unnecessary, but look at it this way....how many people thought JTB or 295 were bad ideas before they were built...and how many of those same people use those roads now?

reednavy

February 28, 2010, 10:46:03 PM
Part of the problem in this town is the fact that it has nearly zerro connectivity, i.e., a street grid. All these ridiculous developments and their curvey "parkways" have screwed up any chances of this city having connectivity.

One city that has a street grid, is comparable in size, but commute times are much better is Oklahoma City as you have many, many options in addition to 35, 44, 40 and several turnpikes.

stjr

February 28, 2010, 11:14:31 PM
So how would you fix it CS? When signs are posted, articles run, mailers go out to all effected businesses and residents, and... 20 people show up?

...This is much more the fault of the general public then the transportation planners.



Ock, you should know better.

This is the fault of transportation planners that are "road building happy" and in bed with developers and their politicos addicted to their campaign contributions.

Why should the public have to fatigue itself to reign in "experts" that should also know better.  Cynical citizens believe the system is rigged when they see one unneeded road project after another.  Why don't our "professional planners" do their jobs and stop pushing these projects and start focusing on mass transit, the real future of transportation.

9B is nothing more than another surreptitious link of the Outer Beltway plan and will just push more urban sprawl on all of us.  Not to mention siphoning funds from the very rail development you advocate for.  We need to break this cycle and there is no time like the present.  I urge you to reconsider your thoughts on this project.

tufsu1

February 28, 2010, 11:43:26 PM
This is the fault of transportation planners that are "road building happy" and in bed with developers and their politicos addicted to their campaign contributions.

which transportation planners are you referring to?

btw...stjr...Ock was referring to the public meeting/hearing process...he was not endorsing 9B

Ocklawaha

February 28, 2010, 11:55:50 PM
I think stjr didn't catch the drift of my comment TU, I never said that it was the fault of the public that we have some planners that are indeed highway-happy. These are mostly developers who have paid their way into office, as well as a good portion of the JTA crew. To put it in the vernacular of the peasantry, they are "Bad to the Bone!"

What I was saying is HOW DO YOU FIX the lack of public participation when they have done everything up to and including give away free dinners... That was an idea that stiffed the tax payers for "free chicken" which they'll complain about, and God knows if they hadn't given it away, they'd complain even more. Personally I'd give Victoria, or whoever came up with the chicken idea, points for having at least tried to motivate the citizenry.



OCKLAWAHA

jandar

March 01, 2010, 07:34:45 AM
Explain this we thing.

I believe this would be all of us....now I happen to think 9B is unnecessary, but look at it this way....how many people thought JTB or 295 were bad ideas before they were built...and how many of those same people use those roads now?

I remember JTB being built and it was a nice quiet road that we took to get to the beaches (after paying a small toll). No traffic on it whatsoever.

Sprawl happened on JTB. It was not controlled in the least. There was no planned growth on that part of the southside. Yet many that now live in this area bemoan roads that are at least taking feedback and listening to the public (the few that do show).

stjr

March 01, 2010, 12:06:22 PM
I think stjr didn't catch the drift of my comment TU,  

Sorry, Ock and Tufsu, if I wasn't clearer.

I took Ock's defense of the public hearings for 9B as an endorsement of 9B because I see him trying to justify the steps that led up to 9B as an adequate and fair process.  I did put it into context, as well, with my recollection that Ock has endorsed 9B as a rationalized outlet for port traffic.

My point is that the burden of proof should not be on the public to NOT build the road, but on the planners TO build the road.  Ock's comments appear to support putting the burden on the public to stop the road building bureaucracy/steamroller which I think is just not a reasonable or fair expectation. (Still waiting for an example where a planned road, years in the making, was canceled due to a public hearing.)

A public citizen walking into a hearing is no match for the road building bureaucrats that, with immense taxpayer monies, have spent years investing in the project and whose sole job is to get the road built.  Most citizens can not readily access, read, vision, and/or comprehend thousands of pages in technical maps, engineering drawings, traffic studies, environmental studies, cost estimates, etc. and certainly can't afford the professional expertise to match the planners resources.  And, if they could, they certainly couldn't do it all in their "spare time" leading up to a hearing.  If I brought 100 people opposed to 9B who simply stood up and said we oppose this road, do you think FDOT/JTA would even delay the project for one minute?  Or just shoot us down as "wild and crazy" citizens who don't speak the language?

We have a cycle where "highway happy" planners (and they are, Tufsu, because that is how they keep their jobs) look for excuses to build roads (under cover of such groups as the TPO), however lame those excuses are.  Then, we the public, who have full time lives and jobs doing other things, have to make a career of trying to reign in these planners.  It's not really sustainable.

I have a better way.  BEFORE planners proceed beyond a simple theoretical line on a map for a road project, let's have public hearings on the general concept and see if the public shows up to support it.  If the same less than 50 people show up (especially with free fried chicken!), let's shelve the project.  If the public is divided, then let's defer until the pro-roaders can make a case that substantially prevails over the opposition in the public eye.  Perhaps roads costing over a certain amount or running more than a certain distance should be put up for a public referendum in the communities it affects.  That would be interesting.

Bottom line, almost any process would be better than the one we have now where public hearings are, in the perception of the public, merely window dressing on a foregone conclusion to build a given road.

British Shoe Company

March 01, 2010, 10:04:48 PM
It sounds like purchasing an "I Pass", or "Easy Pass" to drive thru toll booths would be great, instead of a stop, and paying toll.  I think there will be tolls. 

Not Trolls!

I do think there will be tolls, and  the  "I pass", or "Easy Pass" option also. It will save frequent users time.

reednavy

March 01, 2010, 10:13:18 PM
See, BCS, this is what I would like to see happen, having it tolled.

It is serving only a minority of the metro area, and those want to use it's convenience should have to pay the price for shaving 5-10 minutes off their travel time.

reednavy

March 01, 2010, 10:16:42 PM
Wild eyed Southern Boys can spell.  Maybe you Should change your logo from the "City of Jacksonville" to the High School you attended.
Except it isn't a logo, it is called an avatar.

tufsu1

March 01, 2010, 10:27:02 PM
I have a better way.  BEFORE planners proceed beyond a simple theoretical line on a map for a road project, let's have public hearings on the general concept and see if the public shows up to support it.  If the same less than 50 people show up (especially with free fried chicken!), let's shelve the project.  If the public is divided, then let's defer until the pro-roaders can make a case that substantially prevails over the opposition in the public eye.  Perhaps roads costing over a certain amount or running more than a certain distance should be put up for a public referendum in the communities it affects.  That would be interesting.

stjr...this is exactly what happens during a long-range transportation plan (LRTP)....theoretical lines are drawn on a map...and the "free chicken" meeting Ock referred to was part of the recent LRTP's public outreach.

so, given that there were not huge numbers at any public meeting, should we scrap all the ideas from the plan...including all the commuter rail and streetcar lines?

reednavy

March 01, 2010, 11:29:35 PM
tufsu, I wish more people would be involved in the overall process, including meetings. These things are advertised well, but nobody seems to really care. They eventually care when traffic becomes an issue in their neck of the woods.

tufsu1

March 01, 2010, 11:35:39 PM
tufsu, I wish more people would be involved in the overall process, including meetings. These things are advertised well, but nobody seems to really care. They eventually care when traffic becomes an issue in their neck of the woods.

I agree completely...I wish people understood that early on is when the general idea is developed...not when design plans are being finalized or ROW is being acquired.

British Shoe Company

March 02, 2010, 08:34:04 PM
tufsu, I wish more people would be involved in the overall process, including meetings. These things are advertised well, but nobody seems to really care. They eventually care when traffic becomes an issue in their neck of the woods.

I agree completely...I wish people understood that early on is when the general idea is developed...not when design plans are being finalized or ROW is being acquired.

"Let It Ride".   Listen to Three Dog Night!

stjr

March 02, 2010, 09:07:24 PM
stjr...this is exactly what happens during a long-range transportation plan (LRTP)....theoretical lines are drawn on a map...and the "free chicken" meeting Ock referred to was part of the recent LRTP's public outreach.

Tufsu,  I get your point.  I totally agree that in a perfect world, people would exercise their right to vociferously speak out on all issues of importance to them.

But, in this very "imperfect" world, I would suggest that "Average Joe Citizen" has trouble keeping this stuff in focus with all that competes for his attention and time.  Look, after millions are spent during intense political campaigns, frequently only 10 to 30% of the electorate takes the 5 minutes to vote in person or by absentee.  Much of the rest don't even realize there is an election going on or choose to ignore it to such a large extent that they can't even name the candidates.  How many people are going to hone in on a bureaucracy's public hearing that gets little to no publicity and is not accompanied by a major public relations push to educate people on why they should care?

Right or wrong, I think most of the public expects (trusts?!) their elected representatives to insure the best outcomes for our community.

Which bring us to who ultimately decides which "theoretical lines" stay and which ones go?  And, by what process?  For those who decide, what are their positions?  Are they vested in road building jobs and development, or are they unbiased, neutral deciders judging what is in the long term best interests of our community?  How does one actually go about insuring those theoretical lines get erased on occasion?  Do we, as a community, have some stated goals by which projects are judged and graded and to which the deciders are held accountable?  Such as:

Minimizing environmental, green space, historic structures, existing neighborhood impacts.
Maximizing use of already existing infrastructure.
Reducing urban sprawl.
Increasing density in already developed areas, especially close to mass transit services.
De-emphasizing roads and emphasizing mass transit [i.e. moving the most people with flexibility and efficiency while minimizing the overall costs to society (i.e. taxpayer costs PLUS individual costs)].
Maximizing energy efficiencies.
Creating sustainable communities.

If these goals were adhered to, we wouldn't get the results to date that we have gotten.

British Shoe Company

March 17, 2010, 07:48:50 PM
People from St. Johns County can use 9B to get to Macy's.   Only Simon Properties knows the location.

tufsu1

March 17, 2010, 07:57:49 PM
if that's the case BSC, then they can also use I-95/9A...there is NO NEED for 9B!

British Shoe Company

March 17, 2010, 08:12:48 PM
if that's the case BSC, then they can also use I-95/9A...there is NO NEED for 9B!

9A proves we need 9B.

reednavy

March 17, 2010, 08:26:21 PM
9A proves we need 9B.
how so?

IMO, it proves we need better mass transit, including more options.

thelakelander

March 17, 2010, 08:48:53 PM
Why isn't 9B toll?  By the way, there are plans to develop the Davis property at some point.  Plans have been drawn up plus land around 9B and up 9A has already been rezoned.  I knew I wasn't crazy when I noticed that blob of commercially zoned land in the middle of 9B.  At some point, don't be suprised to see an interchange of some sort added between 9A and US 1 in the future.

stjr

March 17, 2010, 10:27:29 PM
Why isn't 9B toll?  By the way, there are plans to develop the Davis property at some point.  Plans have been drawn up plus land around 9B and up 9A has already been rezoned.  I knew I wasn't crazy when I noticed that blob of commercially zoned land in the middle of 9B.  At some point, don't be suprised to see an interchange of some sort added between 9A and US 1 in the future.

Lake, the prototypical model of urban sprawl strikes again.  And FDOT and JTA are its enablers.  We will have deja vu if the Outer Beltway gets built.  Only one word for all this: Crazy!

thelakelander

March 17, 2010, 10:32:17 PM
A couple of more words...

Higher Taxes and Fee Increases

This type of infrastructure planning and low density development does not pay for itself.  Just imagine how much tax money already coming in could go to improving quality of life and educational offerings if we didn't have to permanently pay for the maintenance and upkeep of our sprawling infrastructure network and the services needed to keep up with it?

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 02:40:03 AM
First off, instead of spending over $250 Million on 9B and $1.8 Billion on the Outer Beltway, we should just rebuild all the crappy interchanges on our already built piece o' crap highways. I can name some of them off, Blanding, San Jose, 103rd, JTB at I-95 (completely retarded interchange), and maybe US-17 at I-295.

Second, apparently Jacksonville doesn't want to grow up (yep we wont grow up), but out (getting fatter with urban sprawl everyday). However maybe these developers should look at the current infrastructure before laying down several hundred homes in St. Johns or Clay.

Lastly, for everyone that is complaining about the traffic and crap in Jacksonville. Sorry to say, but you can LEAVE. Complaining about it isn't really going to do anything. Last time I complained about traffic, guess what. NOTHING HAPPENED.

Go figure I moved 45 minutes west of Jacksonville in a nice town called Maxville, no traffic there.

Matt (btw I am 17, and i lived in Jacksonville my whole life, loved it, but as soon as I graduate I am gone.)

reednavy

April 06, 2010, 08:13:14 AM
JTB & I-95 is being rebuilt right now.

riverside planner

April 06, 2010, 08:46:30 AM
JTB & I-95 is being rebuilt right now.

That interchange is not being rebuilt; rather it is being "improved".  A true rebuilding of that interchange would remove the cluster that is a traffic signal at the intersection of two limited access roadways.

cline

April 06, 2010, 09:01:47 AM
Quote
JTB & I-95 is being rebuilt right now.

There is currently a PD&E being done for a complete rebuild of the I-95/JTB/US1 interchange.  However, I do not believe there is funding for construction at this point. 

http://www.butler95.com/

reednavy

April 06, 2010, 09:09:25 AM
That interchange is not being rebuilt; rather it is being "improved".  A true rebuilding of that interchange would remove the cluster that is a traffic signal at the intersection of two limited access roadways.
Improved, rebuilt, tomato, tomatoe, to me it sounds too damn similar. That'd be like saying they're improving The Big I and not rebuilding.

They've at least partially rebuilt something, so it qualifies in my mind. However, they can't get started on total reconstruction soon enough.

cline

April 06, 2010, 09:45:49 AM
Quote
Improved, rebuilt, tomato, tomatoe, to me it sounds too damn similar. That'd be like saying they're improving The Big I and not rebuilding.

They've at least partially rebuilt something, so it qualifies in my mind. However, they can't get started on total reconstruction soon enough.

You're right, technically they are building something.  At this point they are adding more entrance and exit lanes onto I-95 which should significantly help matters.  They did the same thing at CR210 and I-95 in St. Johns County and it greatly improved congestion.  The total rebuild of the intersection is much more involved though.  If you look at the design alternatives on the website, some of them are pretty crazy.

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 12:24:44 PM
See, when FDOT build an crappy interchange, and then find out. Wow this isnt going to support us anymore, lets add more lanes for even more cars to get congested in. Take Blanding or Roosevelt Blvd, those two exits are some of the busiest in Jacksonville. Yet, all they an do to fix it is add lanes, so you can still hit TWO lights before you can even drive. (sorry but I have a thing against the Blanding interchange, never liked it and never will unless they rebuild it, I will probably come back to J-ville in 20 years and it be the same)

Part of my family moved to Louisville, KY. Which is another lovely urban sprawl, however the interchange where I-264 and Shelbyville road meet. It is a massive interchange that has NO lights (its like a interstate/interstate interchange) and it supports the two massive malls on both sides of the highway and there is hardly any traffic. If Blanding was even close to this, there would be a lot more happy poeple in Duval and Clay. For me I think the interchange is the most important part of an highway. Because its usually where you go from around 60/70 MPH to Zero. If you can make an interchange that you never have to hit zero, you have an WAY better transition and less traffic and frustration.  

Tell me if I am wrong, and then I will shut up.

Matt

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 12:48:54 PM
I just finished looking at the design alternatives for the JTB/I-95/US-1 hellhole, and I was pretty impressed by design A/A (http://www.butler95.com/docs/alternatives/AlternativeAA.pdf) I can just look at it and imagine how much better the whole system there would work. And afterwards JTB could actually be called an freeway as opposed to an Blvd.

The thing is, they have no money. That interchange by the looks of it will cost around $300-400 Million. Something at the cost well could take 10-15 years to fund, and by then it will be like the mega hellhole.

stjr

April 06, 2010, 12:54:40 PM
The question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:

(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.

There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so.  Could it be due to campaign contributions?  Back room deals?

fsujax

April 06, 2010, 01:02:20 PM
and also they do not make money or pay for themselves! so we should stop investing in these insanely high priced highway projects!

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 01:14:37 PM
The question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:

(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.

There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so.  Could it be due to campaign contributions?  Back room deals?


I lived in Duval for 11 years, Clay for 6 years and St. Johns for 2 years. And the one thing you have to know that all these counties make of the Jacksonville Metro area. I dont support any county helping each other, but lets say Duval has a nice highway and then as soon as you go over the county boarder you hit this crappy 4-lane road that they call an highway. It wont help the the entire metro area as an whole. The key is a solid infrastructure.

Now I want to talk about another thing. Everyone is talking about going out is bad, so we should build up. Jacksonville has never been about going up. I am sure poeple move here because they dont have to share a building with anyone else. Of course this creates sprawl, but have you noticed all the proposed towers for downtown Jacksonville. Hardly any sold, or where even built.

Last is the importance of an proper mass transit system. I do agree with that, and if a Light rail system was to be built and the Skyway to be linked to it. And if downtown Jacksonville would actually get some major office towers then just maybe our urban sprawl agenda might be stopped. I would love to live in a residential tower in Downtown Jacksonville, but I am single. I dont think they are much help for families, families want their own home, in their own neighborhood. So looks like the residential towers are just for the retired and the single person families.

9B should be built, the Outer beltway not so much. It provides an direct link to Regency, JAXPORT, and the Beaches, three of Jacksonville's biggest assets.

Matt

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 01:24:35 PM
and also they do not make money or pay for themselves! so we should stop investing in these insanely high priced highway projects!

Fact of life, if you are so against them. Then sell your car and house. Move next to your work, buy a bike and be happy.

fsujax

April 06, 2010, 01:28:59 PM
^^haha. I am not against them. I was simply pointing out an argument that is quite often used against investing in transit. I love to drive on highways, ramps and bridges. I believe we should have it all and give people choices.

ProjectMaximus

April 06, 2010, 03:19:02 PM
I would love to live in a residential tower in Downtown Jacksonville, but I am single. I dont think they are much help for families, families want their own home, in their own neighborhood. So looks like the residential towers are just for the retired and the single person families.

Matt


Fortunately, this is slowly changing. The allure of urban environments is methodically attracting new generations of FAMILIES away from suburban lifestyles. Not that it's gonna go away, but the overall attitude is changing, for reasons both romanticized and practical.

stjr

April 06, 2010, 05:17:44 PM
Quote
I would love to live in a residential tower in Downtown Jacksonville, but I am single. I dont think they are much help for families, families want their own home, in their own neighborhood. So looks like the residential towers are just for the retired and the single person families.

Tell this to all the families raising kids in NY City towers.  The problem in Jax is if you live Downtown, there are no Downtown walk-to (that excludes Metro Park) parks for families to take kids to play ball, ride bikes in a secure area, fly a kite, play in a sandbox or on a swing, play tag or hide and seek, etc.  If you look at my posts on Downtown threads, you will see that I believe this is a major contributor to why Downtown fails to attract residents, not just families, but people of all ages.

We might pick up Metro Park as a solution if JTA ran a 3 or 4x an hour run, 7 days a week, from Downtown but I don't see that on the drawing boards.  Maybe, with the Metro Park overhaul, that should be a required component.  I believe it when I see it.

reednavy

April 06, 2010, 05:28:44 PM
Fact of life, if you are so against them. Then sell your car and house. Move next to your work, buy a bike and be happy.
This coming from a high school student in Maxville. Oh the irony.

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 08:34:14 PM
Fact of life, if you are so against them. Then sell your car and house. Move next to your work, buy a bike and be happy.
This coming from a high school student in Maxville. Oh the irony.

Dude I am in College, and second I was homeschooled, and third highways are an important part of our life as long as we drive cars. Of course they might not pay for themselves, but they are used for many things. Without them the United States might not of been as great. And I wasn't supporting the Outer Beltway, I did support 9B because I believe it has use. However, if 9A was expanded and updated I am sure that 9B or the Outer Beltway isn't needed.

Mass Transit, hell imagine what we could do by spending $1.8 billion on Light Rail. Our City would be completely revolutionized. And we could actually say that we have a cool way to get around.

I would like to be able to ride a train from Kent Campus to Downtown Jacksonville. That would be Sweeet!

They should convert the Prime Osborn Convention Center back to a commuter rail station, connect it to the useless Skyway and then build a proper convention center elsewhere. Seems like a perfect idea

reednavy

April 06, 2010, 08:43:24 PM
So, you're 17, supposedly in college, live in Maxville, but can't even use correct grammar or place a comma where needed? Gotcha.

Oh, and what is the purpose of 9B, other than promoting sprawl?

I was on US1 the other day and saw a FOR SALE sign for commercial property, and stated this: Adjacent to the new 9B.

Mattius92

April 06, 2010, 09:02:21 PM
Ok, what I am doesn't matter all that much. I do go to FSCJ, but I am only a freshman, ever heard of dual-enrollment... eh?

SR 9B will promote sprawl. Virtually any highway built will do that. However, for economical growth in other parts of the city 9B will help. People living in St. Johns will have a faster commute if they have jobs on Southside or Arlington area. Also trucks and other commercial vehicles can take it, avoiding downtown Jacksonville. The construction of SR 9B is starting in the summer. So it is going to be built.

Lastly I am disagreeing with you because its a discussion forum. No better way in telling people the bad things about it then having to explain why.

tufsu1

April 06, 2010, 09:05:18 PM
Tell this to all the families raising kids in NY City towers.  The problem in Jax is if you live Downtown, there are no Downtown walk-to (that excludes Metro Park) parks for families to take kids to play ball, ride bikes in a secure area, fly a kite, play in a sandbox or on a swing, play tag or hide and seek, etc.  If you look at my posts on Downtown threads, you will see that I believe this is a major contributor to why Downtown fails to attract residents, not just families, but people of all ages.

We might pick up Metro Park as a solution if JTA ran a 3 or 4x an hour run, 7 days a week, from Downtown but I don't see that on the drawing boards.  Maybe, with the Metro Park overhaul, that should be a required component.  I believe it when I see it.


stjr...very few people in the suburbs take the bus to a park...they either walk or more often drive...so drivig or riding a bike (like I do) over to Metro Park is not a big deal.

That said, some downtown properties have the amenities...for example, Berkman Plaza has a pool, tennis courts, and some open space...and Parks @ Cathedral has a pool and a small park space for throwing the ball around.

British Shoe Company

April 06, 2010, 09:40:00 PM
Fact of life, if you are so against them. Then sell your car and house. Move next to your work, buy a bike and be happy.
This coming from a high school student in Maxville. Oh the irony.

"West side the best side'"

9B will help in case of emergencies also.

British Shoe Company

April 06, 2010, 09:46:00 PM
So, you're 17, supposedly in college, live in Maxville, but can't even use correct grammar or place a comma where needed? Gotcha.

Oh, and what is the purpose of 9B, other than promoting sprawl?

I was on US1 the other day and saw a FOR SALE sign for commercial property, and stated this: Adjacent to the new 9B.

reednavy, you have made a multitude of grammar errors.  

You must have found out how to use spell check? tell the truth reed.......

Buy that piece of property, and jump aboard the 9B wagon.  

Stop going  "attack mode" when people who disagree with you on a topic.

reednavy

April 06, 2010, 10:04:28 PM
Oh yeah, I sure got a couple hundred thousand laying around.


Oh just shut up already, I'm picking at a newbie.

British Shoe Company

April 06, 2010, 11:11:05 PM
Oh yeah, I sure got a couple hundred thousand laying around.


Oh just shut up already, I'm picking at a newbie.

Spell check question  got a Tiger like response.


Come clean on spell check, and wish the young newbie well.

By the way spell check does not help grammar.  

"Already,"  ???

reednavy

April 16, 2010, 02:32:08 PM
Just a little tid bit, I saw a core drilling machine used to take soil/bedrock samples for the pilings that will need to be put in for the overpasses/flyovers.

Gatorziggy

April 16, 2010, 02:46:49 PM
The core drilling machine is not for pilings. It is for the new ponds to determine how much soil is good and can be used for the SR 9B project. Alot of wetlands and low lands on this project and we need to find as much good dirt as possible.

reednavy

April 16, 2010, 02:50:40 PM
I'm sure they'll use these samples for pilings as well, but it was just a guess.

At the same time though, there are already a few ponds in place, so they probably only one or two more, if that.

CS Foltz

April 16, 2010, 08:29:59 PM
9B is nothing but a highway for developers into pristine woods! Love my tax dollars hard at work putting money into developers pockets..........like we need more developement!

Mattius92

April 18, 2010, 08:05:42 PM
Get them to build commuter or light rail and we will be good. However it seems to be the general agreement in North Florida to build more and more highways. Anyways I still believe 9B will be of some use to St Johns and Duval.

St. Auggie

April 18, 2010, 09:00:38 PM
9B is nothing but a highway for developers into pristine woods! Love my tax dollars hard at work putting money into developers pockets..........like we need more developement!

Pristine woods? Sorry bud, but this in nothing but farmland. ALL of those trees would be cut down at some point.  The ENTIRE botanical area was raped long ago.  It is sad because when you acutally see an untouched area and it is so beautiful.  The damage was done most likely before you were born. Now if you want to get on the bandwagon that this is just for developers then...

reednavy

April 18, 2010, 09:21:19 PM
I would prefer to have a forests that are actually used for something, then replanted, instead of being demolished for more unnecessary homes and strip centers.

stjr

April 18, 2010, 11:25:56 PM
Pristine woods? Sorry bud, but this in nothing but farmland.

Agreed, a forest or swamp, whatever was there originally, is best, but better to be farmland than strip centers and subdivision sprawling about another "super highway" with interchanges.

CS Foltz

April 19, 2010, 06:35:54 AM
St Auggie...........you miss my point! I have no idea just what kind of country 9B will transit through! I assumed that it was nothing but the normal Florida ecosystem plain and simple! My point is simple.......9B is not needed for much of anything and serves just as a conduit to allow developers in the door. We need more concrete like I like a bigger hole in my head and what really tics me off................you and I are paying for this with our tax dollars. I can see the rebuttals right .....but it's Federal money man! Once again............your and my tax dollars at work letting developers in the door! I don't care what kind of terrain is down there, we don't need the blippin concrete!! You might want to check further back on this thread for my stance regarding this matter.

tufsu1

April 19, 2010, 07:57:41 AM
the problem CS is that a whole bunch of people in NE Florida think 9B is needed....and I personally don't know of a single local elected official that thinks otherwise.

copperfiend

April 19, 2010, 09:50:57 AM
Didn't John Delaney say don't let Atlanta happen here?

copperfiend

April 19, 2010, 09:52:11 AM
I would prefer to have a forests that are actually used for something, then replanted, instead of being demolished for more unnecessary homes and strip centers.

Especially since you can drive down any suburban boulevard and find a dozen half empty strip malls.

stjr

April 19, 2010, 07:29:41 PM
the problem CS is that a whole bunch of people in NE Florida think 9B is needed....and I personally don't know of a single local elected official that thinks otherwise.

Tufsu, finding champions for a road is a no-brainer.  Developers, realtors, a few people who may actually save a couple of minutes getting somewhere, road contractors, consultants, building material suppliers, people who think it will get them a job or prime the local economy, politicos looking to score some points with special interests, etc.  None of this adds up to a genuinely good reason to build the road.

As mentioned before, real leaders would look out for the interests of all, not just a special few.  9B no more serves the greater area population than a bridge to nowhere. 

That politicians line up in force for 9B and the Outer Beltway just shows how much they have been bought and how little spine they have to be real leaders advocating for ALL of us and against the status quo.

tufsu1

April 19, 2010, 07:38:54 PM
fine stjr...but I think you'd find a majority of people in the Jax. area who think 9B (and the Outer Beltway for that matter) is a good idea....unless you're suggesting that leaders "actually lead" and not just pander to the electorate?

CS Foltz

April 19, 2010, 07:52:39 PM
Well tufsu.........I am not sure about what majority of people in Jax your talking about! I know where I live at, having asked at least a dozen people, all of whom said Bull Pucky! They don't consider 9B an asset to anyone since that part of the world is kinda empty right now! My tax dollars are being used to pander to developers and builders...........That road does nothing to enhance my life or make travel easier for me! I don't need to go there so I have to ask............why is it being built again? If there is nothing there now, why build it? Outer Beltway is in the same ilk.........I did not ask for it and won't use it if it ever gets built!  JTA might want it, more concrete, but I did not ask for it and don't want it...........we have too many issue's that are more pressing to be wasting Millions on something the people that I have talked to.....do not want! I don't think it is "pandering to the electorate", more about acknowledging the" will of the people"!

stjr

April 19, 2010, 08:12:51 PM
...unless you're suggesting that leaders "actually lead" and not just pander to the electorate?

I would be happy if our elected leaders worked for the good of all of us, not just the special interests vested in road building galore.

As I said before (see below), there is no sane or rational reason for this road to be supported by Jax politicos so there remains only one reason in my mind:

Quote
The question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:

(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.

There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so.  Could it be due to campaign contributions?  Back room deals?

tufsu1

April 19, 2010, 08:28:04 PM
I don't think it is "pandering to the electorate", more about acknowledging the" will of the people"!

so 12 people in one neighborhood/area = will of the people?

in all seriousness, SR 9B is meant to serve a few things:

1. relieve future congestion @ SR 9A/I-95 interchange
2. provide a connection to Racetrack Road (serves Duval and St. Johns residents)
3. minimize the need for 8 or 10 lanes on I-95 from CR 210 to I-295

now I personally think that widening I-95, widening SR 9A, and building an interchange @ Racetrack Road are better ways to provide vehicular mobility...but denying that SR 9B provides some positives is short-sighted.

stjr

April 19, 2010, 09:40:18 PM
I don't think it is "pandering to the electorate", more about acknowledging the" will of the people"!

so 12 people in one neighborhood/area = will of the people?

in all seriousness, SR 9B is meant to serve a few things:

1. relieve future congestion @ SR 9A/I-95 interchange
2. provide a connection to Racetrack Road (serves Duval and St. Johns residents)
3. minimize the need for 8 or 10 lanes on I-95 from CR 210 to I-295

now I personally think that widening I-95, widening SR 9A, and building an interchange @ Racetrack Road are better ways to provide vehicular mobility...but denying that SR 9B provides some positives is short-sighted.

For $200+ million, it better have some "positives", Tufsu!  The question is could the $200 million be better spent elsewhere.  Given a long list of other "betters", including your own, why are we spending our money here?

To me, all public works projects are about ranking priorities and value.  Are we making the best choices, heck no.  Most ironic is that our "think like a business" Republican majority politicos are making very "un-business like" decisions.  It seems "business like" to them means supporting "businesses they like!"

Mattius92

April 22, 2010, 04:10:29 PM
If the City of Jacksonville, St. Johns County, FDOT, etc. were to take that $200+ Million and use it to create commuter or light rail then. I would be all against 9B, but would that happen. I highly doubt it.

You people go all against it, but somehow this city (at least the political leaders) doesn't want anything else then more and more concrete. Its pretty sad but what can we do... Peyton is almost up, so one of you run for Mayor and get this stuff done. Till then what can we do.

Good thing is for the first time I have actually seen plans for Commuter rail in Jacksonville in the 2030 Mobility plan.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-apr-jacksonvilles-2030-mobility-plan

However it still lacks the full potential we could reach if someone really invested in it.

Ocklawaha

April 22, 2010, 04:42:45 PM
Hate to say it, but just like I-22 (The Florida-Georgia Parkway, now aimed at Savannah), ANY new superslab connection benefits the largest private economic driver in NE Florida.  J A X P O R T !!  While we have been pretty good at paving everything in sight, we have missed some vital area's that could have paid back in much bigger ways. 

WHAT IF? What if we canceled 9-B and instead extended the old Haines Street Expressway, renamed something poinent like JAXPORT EXPRESSWAY, or HARBOR EXPRESSWAY, from the current corner of MLK, straight north near Talleyrand and Buffalo, over the Trout River and follow Hecksher to Blount Island.

Meanwhile, 9-B will help as it gives container traffic a straight shot at East-South-Central Florida roads, without the congestion of 95/295.

It will help in giving Race Track Road a much needed interchange, something we can't do on I-95 due to interchange spacing requirements.

Opponents should now focus on getting wildlife underpasses  built into 9-b, perhaps an 11Th hour Hail Mary.




OCKLAWAHA

aaapolito

May 01, 2010, 12:57:32 PM
Sorry if someone already posted this previously, but I just found a website for State Road 9b on the Daily Record.

http://sr9b.com/sr9b/Phase2.aspx

stjr

May 01, 2010, 03:12:14 PM
**** SPECIAL INTEREST ALERT *****

From 9B web site (note the blue "tail" just below the U.S. 1 interchange):

Quote

An off-ramp from southbound S.R. 9B to Flagler Development is also proposed during phase two construction.


Now one can see why 9B is truly getting built.  I don't recall seeing an interstate ramp onto private property like this except for Disney.  And, who will pay for the ramp? ... which really begins at 9A from a functional standpoint!

jandar

May 01, 2010, 08:03:57 PM
lol, thats very obvious who was the money behind this.

Anyone know the property owner?

reednavy

May 01, 2010, 09:14:12 PM
Appears to be a dedicated on/off ramp for Durbin Blvd/Citicards Way near Veveras Dr.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=citicards%20way&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

thelakelander

May 01, 2010, 09:16:25 PM
Might as well see what those ramps will lead into:



tufsu1

May 01, 2010, 09:28:09 PM
As the ramp would alleviate congestion on US 1 for those going to Flagler Center, I have no problem with it if the developers pay for it

stjr

May 01, 2010, 10:48:24 PM
As the ramp would alleviate congestion on US 1 for those going to Flagler Center, I have no problem with it if the developers pay for it

That's a big "if" since we haven't seen anything on it posted here or elsewhere.  Further, this just fuels the idea that 9B is really being built to only serve special interests like this.  What it amounts to is a "shortcut" from JTB/Beaches to their property instead of going to I-95. Maybe Fortress Investment Group, the private equity group in the middle of all this with tens of billions (that's more than FDOT has right now ;) ) should pay for most or all of 9B.  A cold day in hell, I am sure.

We don't spend a fraction of money like this on mass transit serving ALL or MOST of Jax or for the education of our kids but can cough it up from a cash strapped state for Wall Streeters with billions.  Just remember where your tax dollars really go. 

Fortress bought Florida East Coast Railroad and co-manages it with its other railroad, Rail America.   Following the FEC transactions, Fortress spun off Flagler Development from FEC and now operates it as a REIT under their control.  Thus, another big benefit of this ramp is that it dumps traffic into Flagler OVER FEC tracks thus making it less likely its trains hold up Flagler's "customers" at the grade crossing off U.S. 1, or worse, hit them at said crossing as they rush to work.   Bottom line: Fortress is behind all this.  Follow the money.


History of Flagler Development:
Quote
BIRTH OF A LEGACY
1881:     Henry Flagler, an American tycoon and original business partner with John D. Rockefeller in Standard Oil, traveled to Florida in the winter of 1881 on his honeymoon. He found St. Augustine to be a charming city and recognized Florida’s potential to attract out-of-state visitors.
 
1885:     He returned to St. Augustine in 1885 and began construction on the Ponce de León Hotel. The project sparked his vision to transform Florida’s eastern coastline into an “American Riviera.”
 
1894:     By 1894, Henry Flagler developed the Royal Poinciana Hotel in Palm Beach and later, The Breakers in Palm Beach. Mr. Flagler was simultaneously building bridges and laying new railway lines to connect his properties and attract vacationers from the northeast. This ambitious railway system eventually grew into what is known today as Florida East Coast Railway, our sister company.
 
Henry Flagler continued to lay tracks for Florida’s future – and our company’s – and constructed more upscale hotels throughout Florida, with names such as the Royal Palm in Miami and the Casa Marina in Key West.
 
1913:     Upon his death in 1913, he had invested roughly $50 million in the state, including rail tracks that stretched all the way to Key West, leaving behind a legacy that would grow for many years to come.
 
WE ARE THE LEGACY
 
1960s:   Gran Central Corporation was formed to manage the more than 20,000 acres of land that was owned and managed by Florida East Coast Industries. By the end of the 80's, the commercial real estate company had constructed one million square feet of office and warehouse space.
 
2000:     Gran Central continued to grow into a major player in Florida’s real estate industry, with more than 55 buildings/warehouses and approximately 19,000 acres of land, primarily in Jacksonville, Orlando, and Fort Lauderdale. In 2000, the company was renamed Flagler Development Company.
 
2006:     Fast forward through decades of tremendous growth and the unique achievements in the commercial real estate arena of two dominant companies. In 2006, Flagler Development Company and Codina Group of Coral Gables – South Florida’s leading commercial real estate development firm at the time – came together to create an unrivaled combination of prime land holdings, Class-A properties, vast capital resources and market knowledge.
 
2007:     In 2007, the Company’s well-positioned assets, reputation and team of seasoned real estate executives prompted Fortress Investment Group, LLC to invest, repositioning the company as a private real estate investment trust (REIT).

THEN. NOW. TOMORROW.

 
Today, Flagler is Florida’s leading, full-service commercial real estate company. Flagler’s relationship-based philosophy, unparalleled local market expertise, and team-focused values enabled the company to transform into the diversified powerhouse it is today – a commercial real estate investment, development, construction, brokerage, and
property management firm.
 
Honored repeatedly for its industry innovations and civic achievements, Flagler has most recently been recognized by NAIOP as the “Developer of the Year” in South, Central and North Florida markets. The company is an acknowledged pioneer in the development of state-of-the-art Florida facilities for industry leaders including Ryder, FedEx, Office Depot, an Bacardi U.S.A, among many others.

From Rail America:
Quote
Wesley R. Edens

Wesley R. Edens was appointed to our board in 2007. He is the Co-Chairman of the board of Fortress, was the Chief Executive Officer of Fortress until August 2009 and has been a member of the Management Committee of Fortress since co-founding Fortress in 1998. Mr. Edens is responsible for Fortress’s private equity and publicly traded alternative investment businesses. He is Chairman of the board of directors of each of Aircastle Limited, Brookdale Senior Living Inc., Eurocastle Investment Limited, GateHouse Media, Inc., Newcastle Investment Corp. and Seacastle Inc. and a director of GAGFAH S.A. and Penn National Gaming Inc. Mr. Edens was Chief Executive Officer of Global Signal Inc. from February 2004 to April 2006 and Chairman of the board of directors from October 2002 to January 2007. Mr. Edens serves in various capacities in the following three registered investment companies: Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and Trustee of Fortress Registered Investment Trust and Fortress Investment Trust II and Chief Executive Officer of RIC Coinvestment Fund LP. Prior to forming Fortress, Mr. Edens was a partner and managing director of BlackRock Financial Management Inc., where he headed BlackRock Asset Investors, a private equity fund. In addition, Mr. Edens was formerly a partner and managing director of Lehman Brothers. Mr. Edens received a B.S. in Finance from Oregon State University.

Joseph P. Adams, Jr.

Joseph P. Adams, Jr. was appointed to our board in 2007. He is a Managing Director at Fortress within the Private Equity Group and Deputy Chairman of Aircastle Limited and Seacastle Inc. Previously, Mr. Adams was a partner at Brera Capital Partners and at Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette where he was in the transportation industry group. In 2002, Mr. Adams served as the first Executive Director of the Air Transportation Stabilization Board. Mr. Adams received a BS in Engineering from the University of Cincinnati and an MBA from Harvard Business School.  

From Press Release announcing FEC acquisition by Fortress:
Quote

Florida East Coast Industries to Be Acquired By Funds Managed By Fortress Investment Group LLC in an All-Cash Transaction Valued at $3.5 Billion


JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 8, 2007 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- Florida East Coast Industries, Inc. (NYSE: FLA) ("FECI") announced that it has entered into a definitive merger agreement with certain private equity funds managed by affiliates of Fortress Investment Group LLC ("Fortress") under which Fortress will acquire FECI. Florida East Coast Industries will pay a special dividend of $21.50 per share in cash and in the merger shareholders will receive $62.50 in cash for each share of FECI common stock they hold. The combined dividend and merger consideration equal $84.00 per share and represent a 13.3% premium to the NYSE closing price of $74.13 on May 7, 2007 and a 31% premium to the average closing price over the last 60 trading days. The total value of the transaction, including FECI's existing debt and the special dividend, is approximately $3.5 billion.

Adolfo Henriques, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of FECI, stated, "Our focus has always been about maximizing shareholder value. The value created by this transaction is a direct result of our employees' dedication, commitment and hard work over many years. We look forward to working together with Fortress to continue to build our businesses.".....

About Florida East Coast Industries, Inc.

Florida East Coast Industries, Inc., headquartered in Jacksonville, FL, conducts operations through two distinct businesses, Flagler Development Group (Flagler), its commercial real estate operation, and Florida East Coast Railway, L.L.C. (FECR). Flagler owns, develops, leases and holds in joint ventures, approximately 8.6 million square feet of Class-A office and industrial space, as well as an additional 1,916,000 square feet under construction. Flagler space consists of Class-A office and industrial properties, primarily in Jacksonville, Orlando and South Florida counties of Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade. In addition, Flagler provides construction, consulting, third party brokerage and property management (includes Flagler's wholly-owned portfolio, as well as approximately 10.5 million square feet for third parties) services and owns 846 acres of entitled land in Florida, which is available for development of up to an additional 15.9 million square feet and Flagler owns approximately 3,089 acres of other Florida properties. FECR is a regional freight railroad that operates 351 miles of mainline track from Jacksonville to Miami and provides intermodal drayage services at terminals located in Atlanta, Jacksonville, Ft. Pierce, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami. For more information, visit the Company's website at http://www.feci.com.

About Fortress Investment Group LLC

Fortress Investment Group LLC is a leading global alternative asset manager with approximately $35.1 billion in assets under management as of December 31, 2006. Fortress manages private equity funds, hedge funds and publicly traded alternative investment vehicles. The private equity funds total approximately $19.9 billion of the firm's assets under management. Fortress was founded in 1998, is headquartered in New York and has affiliates with offices in Dallas, San Diego, Toronto, London, Rome, Frankfurt and Sydney.

CS Foltz

May 02, 2010, 06:40:57 AM
Just as I pointed out long ago when the 9B subject first came up..............taxpayers will get to pay for a road that will allow developers to get into gear and start developing! If and that is a big if, Fortress Investment Group wishes to pay for it, thats one thing, but if FDOT is paying for it (taxpayer money once again) that is something else! I get really irritated with the same old sh** time after time! Note that there is no rail integration nor is the prospect even considered................really good job with all of the concrete............hope they use Gate!

tufsu1

May 02, 2010, 09:23:49 AM
CS...this ramp leads provides access to a development that's already been approved and open for construction for many years....note the Citi complex, other offices, and Baptist Hospital South that have already been built....just think of how many jobs are in that business park already.

that is a far cry from something that allows "developers to get into gear and start developing"!

buckethead

May 02, 2010, 09:43:28 AM
True, but stjr makes some very salient points in his post, then backs them up with some compelling documentation.

I'm not a wall street hater, but I certainly don't want our tax dollars being used to give their execs easier access to Town Center.

Other board members (fellow posters) with planning experience seem to be a bit more in favor of the project, But stjr's post is not unfounded.

reednavy

May 02, 2010, 09:45:30 AM
CS...this ramp leads provides access to a development that's already been approved and open for construction for many years....note the Citi complex, other offices, and Baptist Hospital South that have already been built....just think of how many jobs are in that business park already.

that is a far cry from something that allows "developers to get into gear and start developing"!
but is it fully developed yet? no

CS Foltz

May 02, 2010, 11:52:38 AM
tufsu..........all the plans in the world have nothing to do with much of anything in this situation! Correct me if I am wrong but there is no road into that area as we speak..........right? So that means it has to go in to allow all of the grandiose plans to take effect........right? I won't pay for it and would vote against it being built if all that it is .................just an artery to build off of and still no provision for rail of anykind! Just more concrete again and am familiar with that area! I have no problem if Fortress wishes to fund it themselves but taxpayer money being used I have problems with!

tufsu1

May 02, 2010, 01:30:41 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but there is no road into that area as we speak..........right?

actually there are several...some come off St. Augustine Road (just east of I-95) and also Gran Bay Pkwy off US 1....just take a look on Google Maps!

stjr

May 03, 2010, 12:41:37 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but there is no road into that area as we speak..........right?

actually there are several...some come off St. Augustine Road (just east of I-95) and also Gran Bay Pkwy off US 1....just take a look on Google Maps!

St. Augustine Road and FEC RR crossed Gran Bay Prkwy don't compare to the gold plated status of having an interstate ramp carrying traffic from half the city dumping into the middle of your development.  This is a developer's "pot of gold at the end of a rainbow".  Don't forget it's being delivered by the same road department that doesn't have enough money to finish the I-95 and JTB interchange fully, substituting an expensive patch.

Still waiting for Tufsu to confirm who is paying for this?  And why we shouldn't think that this isn't a prime example of why 9B is really being built.

St. Auggie

May 03, 2010, 08:36:01 AM
Just so I am clear though, if this off/on ramp gets built, even if it is only for this HUGE development, wont that increase the property values and there for property taxes paid to the city?  Wont this also help create jobs for the area?  Dont you want more consolidation, meaning having office parks rather than spreading all the offices all over the place? This just bolsters your future arguments that a rail station here makes sense.  But they have to build it first.  Arent there some good things in here? Yep, some folks are getting special treatment here, its obvious.  Guess what there are somethings in here that are going to help you.  I know you are all on the sprawl bandwagon, but the infastructure is already in place for this development.  Its not going anywhere, you might as well help it get going and make it have a positive impact. 

cline

May 03, 2010, 08:37:14 AM
Quote
Still waiting for Tufsu to confirm who is paying for this?  And why we shouldn't think that this isn't a prime example of why 9B is really being built.

The first part of 9B is an ARRA (stimulus) funded project.  This project has been in the TPO TIP as a priority for years now- its not new.  Perhaps you should have attended the TPO meetings when they were discussing these project priorities.  Or better yet, talked to some of the local officials who serve on the TPO Board and ultimately approve this list.

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 08:57:06 AM
to add on to what Cline said, the I-95/JTB interchange is also a priority project.....however, it is still in the PD&E stage, which is why they can only do the "smaller improvement" right now.

Also of note is that SR 9B is part of the FDOT Strategic Intermodal System (SIS), which gives facililties priority for fundng....I-95 is also on the SIS but JTB is not....and, as of now, the interchange project will not be funded using SIS money.

copperfiend

May 03, 2010, 10:44:16 AM
Might as well see what those ramps will lead into:





This map has not changed much in the five years or so since Citicards moved it's Jacksonville office to Flagler. Those tracts of land for office use have been empty.

Ocklawaha

May 03, 2010, 11:36:27 AM
Dirt is moving at 9-B and Philips Highway...  A LOT of dirt in fact!

OCKLAWAHA

CS Foltz

May 03, 2010, 12:57:50 PM
Gentlemen............I am just a lowly taxpayer and  not privy to all of the projects slated, discussed or planned for this or any other region. Like I stated before, if Fortress wishes to pay for the 9B extension or enhancement, I have no problem with that! I have a problem when taxpayer monies is used to enhance or direct traffic to what is looking like a high dollar developement, jobs notwith standing! Glad to see Flagler will get the benefits, so let them pay for it out of their pockets. State or Federal Funds come from mine and your pockets and do nothing to enhance my world..........just adds more concrete..........whoppee! No rail planned either and the FEC tracks are not far away.......whats the deal, too good for them?

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 01:04:52 PM
Keep in mind that the 9B itself will serve much more than just the Flagler office park...it is just the one ramp that is "self serving".

But what if the development led to the creation of new jobs, which thereby increased the tax rolls?  If so, why wouldn't it be appropriate to spend public dollars for infrastructure that served the development?

cline

May 03, 2010, 01:05:39 PM
Quote
I have a problem when taxpayer monies is used to enhance or direct traffic to what is looking like a high dollar developement, jobs notwith standing!

Like I mentioned previously, this project has been planned for quite some time.  If you have a problem with it, you should have brought it up when it was still in the planning stages, not once ground is broken and its too late.

stephendare

May 03, 2010, 01:06:50 PM
Well what if the road were also supercharged with alien sex energy making anyone who drove over it irresistible in pick up situations?

It is reckless with the public trust to be spending hundreds of millions on 'what ifs', tufsu1.

CS Foltz

May 03, 2010, 01:10:52 PM
Gentlemen...........I would love nothing better than to just keep track of whats taking place and where and when! Not possible though, still come back to the issue of who is paying for this? FDOT or Federal money means taxpayer money that is allocated by people who supposedly plan for these kinds of things. Not sure but I don't think there is any oversight and maybe there should be! The timing of this is suspect with Amendment 4 on the horizen and to me looks like...........giterdone! Unless Fortress is paying for it, which I doubt, taxpayer money is involved and those jobs stay in Flagler do they not?

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 01:19:42 PM
It is reckless with the public trust to be spending hundreds of millions on 'what ifs', tufsu1.

I think the existence of the Citi complex and Baptist South take away the 'what ifs' on this development....I'm betting there's 5000+ jobs down there today.

Also, keep in mind that the office park is in Duval County, which means the business tax $ stays here.

CS Foltz

May 03, 2010, 01:21:25 PM
OK.........I will buy that, but you neglected to answer just whose money is paying for the interchange?

cline

May 03, 2010, 01:23:47 PM
Quote
but you neglected to answer just whose money is paying for the interchange?

Actually, it was answered earlier.  The first part of the project is a stimulus project.  The part of the project with the ramp you are referring to is not funded yet.

CS Foltz

May 03, 2010, 01:25:34 PM
OK cline..........stimulus project which I believe would translate into "Federal" money? My tax dollars hard at work again but there is no interchange funding slated as of yet?

cline

May 03, 2010, 01:27:25 PM
Quote
My tax dollars hard at work again but there is no interchange funding slated as of yet?

Yes, the same tax dollars that bailed out all the banks. 

The segment of 9B south of US1 is not currently funded.

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 01:32:35 PM
OK.........I will buy that, but you neglected to answer just whose money is paying for the interchange?

I have stated earlier that this ramp may in fact be funded by the development....but lets just assume that it isn't...

My guess is that traffic engineers estimated future demand and determined that the 9B interchange/intersection with US 1 would not meet LOS....this seems entirely possible in the AM when workers to the Flagler area would be arriving via 9B at the same time as others were driving up US 1 (including workers headed to downtown and the baymeadows area).

Providing a direct entrance from 9B into the development eases congestion at the intersection w/ US 1, therby making the commute for many others easier...which could be deemed as a "public good".

stephendare

May 03, 2010, 01:34:20 PM
OK.........I will buy that, but you neglected to answer just whose money is paying for the interchange?

I have stated earlier that this ramp may in fact be funded by the development....but lets just assume that it isn't...

My guess is that traffic engineers estimated future demand and determined that the 9B interchange/intersection with US 1 would not meet LOS....this seems entirely possible in the AM when workers to the Flagler area would be arriving via 9B at the same time as others were driving up US 1 (including workers headed to downtown and the baymeadows area).

Providing a direct entrance from 9B into the development eases congestion at the intersection w/ US 1, therby making the commute for many others easier...which could be deemed as a "public good".


Well helping all those people get dates would also be in the public good.  

CS Foltz

May 03, 2010, 01:38:57 PM
Gotcha.............Federal funds again! Ok since that part of the 9B is not funded then no work will be done at this point until funding from somewhere is allocated for that section which means it will be on hold. Unless Fortress decides to fund it themselves which I would have no problem with! The primary issue I would have is taxpayer money being used to fund access to a private developement..........that is my primary issue! Private funding, go for it, taxpayer money needs to be substanciated and then some! No oversight provided beyond what planners plan and all of the public notice given does not allways filter down to my level! tufsu.........still have issues with what is basically a private road to a developement, interchange does nothing but give access to a private business park. It is of no use unless you cross over from 95 to US1 and there are plenty of places ranging from 16 to Golf World Village to Range Line (9Mile) Road.

thelakelander

May 03, 2010, 02:00:29 PM
Did Flagler donate the land for the second phase of 9B?

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 02:20:14 PM
tufsu.........still have issues with what is basically a private road to a developement, interchange does nothing but give access to a private business park. It is of no use unless you cross over from 95 to US1 and there are plenty of places ranging from 16 to Golf World Village to Range Line (9Mile) Road.

Hardly just a private serving road....I can tell you that the 2035 adopted model for the region shows 50,000 vehicles per day on the segment from 9A to US 1...and 62,000 on the segment from US 1 to I-95....without the dedicated ramp into Flagler or access to anything else along the way!

As to Lake's question about donating land, I don't know...but at a minimum, they've set aside an easement through the development (it can be seen on aerials)...in fact, if you look at the property lines on Google Maps, you'll notice that land has already been reserved for the roadway and the interchange w/ I-95.

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 02:23:56 PM
Its just reckless sprawl breeding isnt it?

I'm sure the folks who already live down there and now have a hospital close to them would disagree.

north miami

May 03, 2010, 04:37:52 PM

Is it true I-95 level of service was allowed to downgrade under the assumption St.Johns County agreed to 'improvements'/future roadways?

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 04:51:42 PM

Is it true I-95 level of service was allowed to downgrade under the assumption St.Johns County agreed to 'improvements'/future roadways?

Yes...St. Johns County was granted a variance to the LOS standard for I-95 about 15 years ago with the agreement that they would fund parallel improvements (like CR 2209)....the portions of I-95 that will be "relieved" by 9B are in Duval County...and in fact construction of 9B (and the Outer Beltway) are expected to add traffic to I-95 in St. Johns County

btw...Baker County just got a similar variance for I-10.

stjr

May 03, 2010, 07:47:52 PM
The red herring of "jobs, jobs, jobs" and "economic development" is the broken record refrain from developers and road builders for every project they conceive.  It's bull malarkey.

That isn't the issue.  The issue is where do we spend our taxpayer dollars overall, and for that portion designated for transportation, where should those dollars best be applied.

I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  And, spending those same dollars on mass transit, such as commuter rail on FEC's tracks with a stop at Flagler might both generate more jobs and economic development while simultaneously reducing urban sprawl and providing a "green" solution.

As to the comment about complaining to elected officials, that is unrealistic for most of us citizens with families and jobs.  We should not have to make a full time avocation of watching our planners and politicos who are charged with making PROFESSIONAL decisions in the areas of planning our community.  If I have to do your job, give me your paycheck.  And, no politico is going to side with Joe the Plumber when they have their campaign accounts lined by developer and contractor donations and a plethora of "planners" and road builders armed with CYA "studies"  (paid for by the pound) and jargon galore about building a road that keeps said planners and road builders employed.

Take the 9B money and put it on a ballot with all the other community projects that money could fund.  I would bet 9B would fall to the bottom of the list.

In the real world, this is just another example of special interests overriding community interests, plain and simple.


tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 08:49:31 PM
I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  

you know that is a non-starter...sorry, but gas taxes get used for transportation....unless you're endorsing the raiding of the transportation trust fund to balance the general budget...as the Legislature has done the past few years.

As for not being able to complain to elected officials....you don't have time to make a phone call or send an e-mail?

Finally, to your suggestion of putting the issue on a ballot...imagine if we put 9B, commuter rail, and streetcar to referendum...care to guess which would likely be most popular in Duval County?

stjr

May 03, 2010, 09:13:33 PM
I guarantee you spending the 9B funds on education of our kids will do far more for jobs and our economy than building 9b to serve Flagler Development and the likes.  

you know that is a non-starter...sorry, but gas taxes get used for transportation....unless you're endorsing the raiding of the transportation trust fund to balance the general budget...as the Legislature has done the past few years.

No more a non-starter than claiming this road is the savior of jobs and our economy. Taxes are fungible.  I don't care where they come from.  They can go anywhere we as a community (state) want them to go.  It's all about priorities.  And, since when do gas taxes pay the full costs of roads anyway?  What about all that federal money?  Doesn't it pay 80% or so of interstate type roads like 9B?  Didn't someone say that 9B is being funded by stimulus money?  If so, that's not gas tax money.  Sorry, Tufsu, this response doesn't hold water.

Quote
As for not being able to complain to elected officials....you don't have time to make a phone call or send an e-mail?

Tufsu, yes one can do that.  But, other than using common sense (sadly lacking in this planning process) what can an average citizen say or do that would bring this pre-ordained (backroom) project to a halt?  Can you show us one time when an average citizen (or even a group of average citizens) stopped or even slowed down the approval of a road like this?  It's disingenuous for you to make this comment when you know it a mere pipe dream in reality.  Have you ever stepped up as a citizen (not as a professional road planner or whatever) and influenced a decision on a road like this?

Quote
Finally, to your suggestion of putting the issue on a ballot...imagine if we put 9B, commuter rail, and streetcar to referendum...care to guess which would likely be most popular in Duval County?

Tufsu, you might be surprised here.  The mass transit options would touch a lot more people voting than 9B is likely to touch.  And, contribute to the improved welfare of all of Duval County, not a little slice owned by special interests.  If I could make this a reality, I would take you up on it in a heartbeat.

tufsu1

May 03, 2010, 10:12:40 PM
No more a non-starter than claiming this road is the savior of jobs and our economy. Taxes are fungible.  I don't care where they come from.  They can go anywhere we as a community (state) want them to go.  It's all about priorities.  And, since when do gas taxes pay the full costs of roads anyway?  What about all that federal money?  Doesn't it pay 80% or so of interstate type roads like 9B?  

I never said the road would bring jobs...I only noted that the ramp to Flagler would serve 5000+ existing jobs.

As for gas taxes, you do know that we pay Federal, State, and Local gas taxes, right?

Sadly the reason stimulus funds are needed is because the Federal Transportation Trust Fund has been sorely under-funded for years....the average American pays about $10 a month in gas taxes...that's a pretty good deal for a utility (can't even get cable or phone for that price).  

As a result, Congress has had to infuse the trust fund with general revenues several times in the past few years....so why would you suggest taking money from the trust fund to pay for other things?

Finally...on the referendum issue...I hope I'm wrong but I think you are in dream land...we'll get an idea come November, when voters in Tampa will get a chance to vote on a 1-cent sales tax that will primarily (75%) fund transit.

stjr

May 03, 2010, 10:31:03 PM
...Congress has had to infuse the trust fund with general revenues several times in the past few years....so why would you suggest taking money from the trust fund to pay for other things?

Maybe because the trust fund is funding unnecessary, special interest, and/or lower priority projects that it should not?

You also are confirming my exact point that, yes, governmental revenues added to these abused road trust funds are just that - "general".  As such, they are being diverted from other uses such as.... education, mass transit, homeland security, military, etc.... pick your alternative priority.

thelakelander

May 03, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
Finally...on the referendum issue...I hope I'm wrong but I think you are in dream land...we'll get an idea come November, when voters in Tampa will get a chance to vote on a 1-cent sales tax that will primarily (75%) fund transit.

I think this depends on how a referendum is shaped.  If the public budget to fund one of the three projects was $170 million (the cost of 9B), I do believe the public would vote for a mass transit based project.

1. SR 9A (I'm using this to set the budget for the other two modes)
$170 million/11.6 miles = 14.66 million/mile

2. Commuter Rail
$170 million / $6 million per mile = 28.33 miles of track (this is roughly the distance between the airport and Old St. Augustine Road.)

3. Streetcar
$170 million / $10 million per mile = 17 miles of streetcar track.

Framed this way, I do believe that the public would go for a mass transit project because it would provide a greater impact on a larger segment on the local population than 9B would.  Plus, it doesn't hurt that the projects would get the community more bang for its buck.

stjr

May 04, 2010, 12:50:27 AM
^Lake, right on.  This is exactly my point.  Just based on how many are impacted for the better, mass transit dollars would go much farther than 9B funds.  By the way, do your costs include ROW acquisition?  If not, I would guess the advantage of mass transit would increase as it uses mostly existing ROW and new roads like 9B require the purchase of new land.

As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 07:51:30 AM
Framed this way, I do believe that the public would go for a mass transit project because it would provide a greater impact on a larger segment on the local population than 9B would.  Plus, it doesn't hurt that the projects would get the community more bang for its buck.

I'm not so sure that's how it would be framed...try it this way...projected ridership:

SR 9B - 60,000 vehicles per day (equates to about 75,000 people)
Commuter Rail and Streetcar - 25,000 riders per day each (and that's being optimistic)

You know as well as I do that the anti-transit folks will argue that it is a pipe dream, that Jax. doesn't need it now, and that we don't have the density for it....and then they'll bring up stjr's favorite project, the Skyway....$200 million for less than 3,000 riders a day.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 08:16:58 AM
It would be up to the seller to frame and sell a project or a plan.  Speaking of which, I would personally never compare a transit project in terms of "ridership" with a highway the way you just did.  I'd run with the cause and effect and economic development platform.  One meets the goals and visions the community continues to express, curbs sprawl, gives people mobility choice and encourages better utilization of existing infrastructure.  The other does the exact opposite.  

Of course the anti transit folks will come with their decades old arguments, but the recent party buster has been the pro transit people who can spin things right around.  For example, our city's budget is a mess right now and that mess is directly related to years of unsustainable growth as a result of projects like 9B and the low density land uses that complement them.  Make the connection, and I do believe things can go in the opposite direction.

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 08:19:56 AM
As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.[/b]

One more thing...there are quite a few planners, including myself, that are not big fans of SR 9B....but to say we are working for special interests is, in many cases, disingenuous...I have not received one phone call or e-mail from a developer or land use attorney in the area regarding SR 9B....and in fact my firm does just about no private-sector work in the area.

That said, I have run the numbers and looked at the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments...if these are in fact even close to on target, SR 9B will be needed to relieve congestion on I-95 (especially at the I-295 interchange) sooner rather than later....the other option would have been to widen both I-95 and I-295.

Sometimes planners are proactive, helping shape the community....other times we must be more reactive, responding to a particular issue or concern.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 08:27:06 AM
^Another option would be to provide commuter rail through that corridor and strengthening the multimodal connectivity in that area between the rail line and the existing road network.  However, you're right in that the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments in that area encourage the type of sprawl to feed and congest monsters like 9B.  Then a couple of years down the road, local government will be crying that revenue doesn't bring in the amount of money for the city to maintain itself.  Its like a bad dream and death cycle that never ends.

north miami

May 04, 2010, 09:25:46 AM
As I have said before, with projects like 9B, our "planners" and politicos are not building for the community, they are building for special interests.[/b]

One more thing...there are quite a few planners, including myself, that are not big fans of SR 9B....but to say we are working for special interests is, in many cases, disingenuous...I have not received one phone call or e-mail from a developer or land use attorney in the area regarding SR 9B....and in fact my firm does just about no private-sector work in the area.

That said, I have run the numbers and looked at the land use forecasts and plans adopted by local governments...if these are in fact even close to on target, SR 9B will be needed to relieve congestion on I-95 (especially at the I-295 interchange) sooner rather than later....the other option would have been to widen both I-95 and I-295.

Sometimes planners are proactive, helping shape the community....other times we must be more reactive, responding to a particular issue or concern.

Marching to the beat of "Forecasts"-Planners & Consultants joined at the hip with development interests and local government,interfacing with the 'public' injecting a self professed stern message of "inevitable" and an assumption that predetermined outcome will be granted by the public,the public often unaware of it's legal role and power in granting.

The role of State DCA-and attempts to circumvent the agency often so troubling to Planners & Consultants is telling.(Not that the dynamic has seen much 'press' to date)

Clay county section of the beltway could be named in honor of Genesis Group and Reinhold-

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
north miami....planners are no different than the general populace....we have varied opinions and beliefs.

north miami

May 04, 2010, 11:17:04 AM
north miami....planners are no different than the general populace....we have varied opinions and beliefs.

P.S.- the curious jog in the Beltway near the St.Johns County river shore could be named "Ringhaver Preserve Loop"

TheProfessor

May 04, 2010, 11:28:33 AM
More Sprawl!

CS Foltz

May 04, 2010, 11:46:19 AM
More sprawl, more concrete and still no option for mass transit in the form of rail! Cost per mile is lower from all of the figures that have been posted. Access into the Flagler Center should be paid for by Fortress since it is their development! I still have issue's with public funds being used to provide access to a private development! Not to mention, I would wager there are other things being planned for that area once 9B is in place!

cline

May 04, 2010, 12:38:36 PM
Quote
still no option for mass transit in the form of rail!

There is an 88' median, which would be enough to accomodate rail.

There is no money for that ramp that you keep referring to.  It is unfunded.

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 12:56:08 PM
with all this talk about sprawl, it might be interesting to do another survey of MetroJacksonville posters to see where they live and work.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 01:01:34 PM
^That wouldn't lead to much because this city has an urban area on life support.  That life support status, limits options for those seeking to live an urban lifestyle.

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 01:14:03 PM
^That wouldn't lead to much because this city has an urban area on life support.  That life support status, limits options for those seeking to live an urban lifestyle.

fine...maybe we can ask several questions...where do you live, where do you work, and where would you want to live.

from what I can see, many people who might support an urban lifestyle, have still chosen (for one reason or another) to live in what some would consider to be sprawl.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 01:24:15 PM
You're right.  However, we may find it has less to do with urban/suburban/sprawl and more to do with a city that doesn't realistically offer true urban living for all segments of the local population.

Bike Jax

May 04, 2010, 01:34:08 PM
If Jacksonville had it's head out it's collective ass when 295 was built and zoned everything outside of it as agricultural, there would be no need for 9A or 9B. Development would have been contained within 295 and we would still have local farming as a source food. 9B will eliminate the last remaining farms we have in N. FL. and officially put Jax in the running with L.A. for sprawl. Look how well it has worked out for them.

copperfiend

May 04, 2010, 01:37:16 PM
If Jacksonville had it's head out it's collective ass when 295 was built and zoned everything outside of it as agricultural, there would be no need for 9A or 9B. Development would have been contained within 295 and we would still have local farming as a source food. 9B will eliminate the last remaining farms we have in N. FL. and officially put Jax in the running with L.A. for sprawl. Look how well it has worked out for them.

How much farmland does 9B go through?

British Shoe Company

May 04, 2010, 01:39:51 PM
9B is good for NE Florida.  If anyone feels there are too many people in NE Florida, move to Wakulla, or Liberty County!

St. Auggie

May 04, 2010, 01:52:48 PM
British.  I am fine w/ 9B, but I dont think anyone here is against growth per se, but rather HOW Jax is growing. Most on this board want it primarily downtown.  They feel this causes growth for the sake of growth away from the downtown. 

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 01:57:35 PM
Wow, I wonder how they got that first image that I created on google earth. Maybe I should post my proposed Skyway extension plan. However that is purely fictional, yet innovative.

And I have time after time said 9B is important, but I am very vocal on wanting other means of transportation other then more beltways. I live on a farm, and I dont consider that part of Duval farmland its more like woods. Now west Duval like Baldwin Duval can be more considered farmland. Anything west of Cecil is pretty open, and I know because I live there.

That might bring up another point. SR-9B will have little effect on me, while the Outer Beltway, which will really effect me, I am against, not because it less useful or more stupid then 9B, or because it effects me more then 9B, but its $1.8 Billion that I say should be spent on light or commuter rail. I dont want to live in burbs forever, but I dont want to move to downtown Jacksonville in its current state.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:00:45 PM
Its more than being about DT. People don't want unsustainable growth. We're already in a situation where the city has budget shortfalls as a result of unsustainable sprawl.  Highways like 9B and the supporting low density land uses will only continue to make things worse.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 02:09:25 PM
Going vertical is something Jacksonville hasnt really ever had. We did get the 37-story Peninsula Residential Tower in 2008, and a few more in the general time frame. Then the good ol' housing bubble popped and then the economy took a wonderful plunge. Now several big high density projects have been either canceled or delayed. So are we going to wait for high-density to come, or are we going to build 9B which will promote growth, but not in a very vertical way.

Also 9B helps serve two major sources of employment, Jaxport and Mayport, thats like 100,000+ jobs there. And over $2 billion in annual economic impact.  With the expansion of Jaxport and the possibility of an Aircraft carrier at Mayport that will just mean more and more money for OUR economy not some city that has nothing to do with us.

cline

May 04, 2010, 02:12:32 PM
Quote
People don't want unsustainable growth.

They don't?  Judging by the amount of people that live in the various low density suburbs of Northwest SJC and Southern Duval it appears that there are a significant amount of people that do.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:17:06 PM
Yes, you don't see people begging to pay more taxes.  In short, take a look at your city's land use regulations.  That drives the pattern of development.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 02:18:04 PM
Lake is right on some points, we DO need high density development, and I support it all they way. However downtown Jacksonville is going to have to be more poeple-friendly downtown. I would actually like to see an high-rise tower on the Riverside, because that place is pretty poeple friendly, possibly one of the best in the city in terms of walkibility and amenities.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:19:37 PM
Going vertical is something Jacksonville hasnt really ever had. We did get the 37-story Peninsula Residential Tower in 2008, and a few more in the general time frame. Then the good ol' housing bubble popped and then the economy took a wonderful plunge. Now several big high density projects have been either canceled or delayed. So are we going to wait for high-density to come, or are we going to build 9B which will promote growth, but not in a very vertical way.

Who said anything about going verticle and building 37 story towers DT?  Density is much more diverse and complex than directly relating it to a downtown oriented development pattern.  Single story structures can be constructed to still provide connectivity and support multimodal transportation options?  In turn, better utilizing our land helps cut down the amount of infrustructure the public must invest in to support new growth.

cline

May 04, 2010, 02:23:25 PM
Quote
Yes, you don't see people begging to pay more taxes.  In short, take a look at your city's land use regulations.  That drives the pattern of development.

My point was that there are thousands of people that choose to live in these low density areas-whether that is good or bad or right or wrong-that's how it is.  If you were to ask these people who already live there if they are in favor of 9B, I would venture to guess that the answer would be in the affirmative.  Commissioner Stevenson (SJC) is all about this project.  The reason being-her constituents want it.    

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:28:42 PM
My point is, moreso than something picking to choose to live, this city through regulation drives certain development patterns, not end user choice.  

For example, there's nothing wrong with purchasing a place near SJTC.  However, there is something wrong with local requirements that don't properly connect individual developments, limit access, don't require sidewalks on both sides of the street, prohibit a mix of uses and forcing large building setbacks.  Our regulations drive auto oriented land development patterns.  This is the unsustainable stuff that breeds congestion and leads to stretching the city's financial resources too thin.  I could care less whether a person chooses to live in DT, Riverside, Englewood or Bartram Park.  Imo, through better land regulations, sustainable development can sprout up in all of these places.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 02:29:54 PM
You see that article on Mobile, maybe our politicians should take a tour of that city. I am guessing that is what Lake is talking about smart growth. And I do really like it.

CS Foltz

May 04, 2010, 02:33:40 PM
I concur lake! If the people who live in the Flagler Center area wish the 9B extension and off ramp for access, then let them form a special taxing district to pay for it! It does nothing for my world yet my tax money will be busy funding it! Fortress wishes to pay for it.........great! Taxpayer money, then the taxpayers should have some input! Put it on the ballot and let the voters say yea or nay! But to use taxmoney, as in stimulus, does the local taxpayer no good or benefit! Still no option for a rail connection..........just more concrete!

cline

May 04, 2010, 02:36:54 PM
Quote
However, there is something wrong with local requirements that don't properly connect individual developments, limiting access, not requiring sidewalks on both sides of the street, prohibiting a mix of uses and forcing large building setbacks.

I can agree with these specifics.  

The major problem is that those who have the ability to do this (COJ planners as we as others) have to answer to the politicians who are ultimately their boss.  We have seen that the politicians in this region are highly resistant to change.  Therefore, we don't get any.  Its a monumentle task just to get little things done. As for the task of completely re-writing the current land use regulations- I doubt I'll se that before I'm six feet under.  I guess I can hope though.

cline

May 04, 2010, 02:40:00 PM
Quote
I concur lake! If the people who live in the Flagler Center area wish the 9B extension and off ramp for access, then let them form a special taxing district to pay for it!

Using your logic, the next time Baymeadows Road (which does nothing for my world but does for you) needs to be resurfaced, I would expect you and your neighbors to get out your checkbooks and pay for it.  You can start by reimbursing the City for the Baymeadows traffic study that was recently completely (which cost around 1mil).

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:40:42 PM
Here is a visual comparison of where I'm going.  The first image is Gateway Mall in Jacksonville.  The strip mall is separated from Norwood Avenue by acres of surface parking.  In the hot Florida sun, walkability easily becomes a no go.



This second image is a new strip mall in suburban Charlotte.  It has parking too, but the parking is located behind the buildings.  

Front


Back


You're providing the same services and needs, but one style of development is more visually pleasing for the surrounding community, embraces walkability and supports multimodal transportation options.  The other is dominated by an auto oriented focus.  Over time, one styles becomes a community while the other breeds congestion and eventually requires a larger public investment to maintain.

By changing or land use and development patterns, we will find that we can accommodate additional growth without the need of additional overly expensive superhighways like 9B and the Outer Beltway.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 02:43:37 PM
Isn't Duval taxpayers paying for the first phase, but isn't phase two and three in SJC. Or is both Duval and St. Johns paying for all the phases in the 9B project. I want to know how exactly is this project getting its funding.

And I can see that Charlotte has it down, no wonder they are beating us in population growth and just about everything.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 02:44:15 PM
Quote
However, there is something wrong with local requirements that don't properly connect individual developments, limiting access, not requiring sidewalks on both sides of the street, prohibiting a mix of uses and forcing large building setbacks.

I can agree with these specifics.  

The major problem is that those who have the ability to do this (COJ planners as we as others) have to answer to the politicians who are ultimately their boss.  We have seen that the politicians in this region are highly resistant to change.  Therefore, we don't get any.  Its a monumentle task just to get little things done. As for the task of completely re-writing the current land use regulations- I doubt I'll se that before I'm six feet under.  I guess I can hope though.

This is where the problem exists (not where people want to live) and where change needs to occur.  Until that happens, we'll always be planning in a reactionary role to a problem that can't be solved by continuing to make the same mistakes.

CS Foltz

May 04, 2010, 02:47:02 PM
cline........I can understand your fustration and I do agree. Maybe Amendment 4 will do something about making those changes? At this point, consultants are driven by the people they answer to, not the taxpayer, and just maybe 4 will control some of this sprawl! Yes lake I did participate in that Bay Meadows town hall meeting. Something that may come out of it is the ability to make my world a "Special Taxing District" in order to pay for the improvements in the Bay Meadows Circle West upgrade. I have no problem with paying for something like that which directly effects me! Golf Course would come back to life and a whole host of improvements to this general region! I can't do something about the interchange @ 95 & Bay Meadows since that is the Federal end............no stimulus money for that!! Interchange was not built with an eye towards possible future upgrades........silly FDOT!

tufsu1

May 04, 2010, 02:56:07 PM
Isn't Duval taxpayers paying for the first phase, but isn't phase two and three in SJC. Or is both Duval and St. Johns paying for all the phases in the 9B project. I want to know how exactly is this project getting its funding.

yes and no....9B (from I-95 to 9A) will be funded using State and Federal money...which means, in theory, that taxpayers in Alaska (I can see 9B from my front porch  :D) could be funding it.

later extensions, beyond I-95 and into St. Johns County, may be funded through local taxes or developer contributions...but my guess is that state funds get used for it too.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 03:02:54 PM
I wanted to get that clear, because I wanted to know who and what would be taxed for this project.

Smart development is needed, simple as that. The question is, when will we get it?

CS Foltz

May 04, 2010, 03:15:05 PM
At the local level.........sometime after 2011 I would guess! Or atleast have a better option!

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 03:22:08 PM
Yeah, I just wonder if we can get some politicians that actually care about the development of the city, and not just any development, smart development.

I haven't lived that long, and I know of only two Jacksonville mayors, Delaney and Peyton, but to me, seems like Peyton hasn't done shit. Then again, I wonder how the city council is. Delaney at least started the Better Jacksonville Plan, which has done some good. However if commuter rail was thrown into it, I would of been much more happy.

thelakelander

May 04, 2010, 03:30:15 PM
The Mobility Plan currently on the table, contains a lot of smart development revisions and changes to the comp plan.  If it passes, change could be coming sooner than a lot of people think.

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 03:34:15 PM
I do say that mobility plan is a godsend. I sure hope it passes.

north miami

May 04, 2010, 03:41:26 PM
with all this talk about sprawl, it might be interesting to do another survey of MetroJacksonville posters to see where they live and work.

I'll answer that:

First address in Northeast Florida: Scenic Drive,Middleburg.
Workplace                                 Duval County

As member of early 1980's Clay County Blanding Blvd.Citizen Advisory Committee,I was empowered with a vision.

Current long established address: Avondale
Workplace                                Minutes from home

Current Address

Mattius92

May 04, 2010, 03:54:04 PM
That's good for you, at least you have the bright idea, poeple really dont need to drive 30-45 minutes to get to work, but if you need to do it, then you better do it. Sure beats having no job, especially with a huge unemployment rate.

For my situation, my family is divorced and remarried. My dad works out of his house as an project manager, before that he had to drive 35 min one way to get to work, now he doesn't have to drive at all. My stepdad drives all day, but he works in Lake City as an Claims Officer for Allstate. His office is his home, now both my dads have zero commute. I have a 20 minute commute myself, but most of the time I am working at home.

We might be lucky, or just smart, its up to you.

CS Foltz

May 04, 2010, 04:17:25 PM
I am all for the Mobility Plan............bring it on!

north miami

May 06, 2010, 03:48:07 PM
with all this talk about sprawl, it might be interesting to do another survey of MetroJacksonville posters to see where they live and work.

Here tufsu reveals a common "Planner & Consultant" outlook,and a central component of our regional planning history,public participation and sense of futility.
Attack and marginalize those that would critique.
Here the assumption is that all is fine & dandy within the sprawl ring...why certainly only pesky outsiders question the sprawl ring's own self professed superiority to bad 'ol Duval.
The recent drumbeat for a "Regional" approach to "Growth Management" of course snubs cross county outlooks as seen  in MJ anti sprawl threads.
And the citizens within the sprawl rings find themselves subjected to not so subtle pressures towards "consensus" on "Inevitable" growth-heaven forbid a sprawl ring resident appear "Selfish","Nimby".
During the ill fated Lake Asbury Sector Plan # 1 public participation meetings public audiences were peppered with non resident development interests present to create a certain something in the air.Strong words here indeed.Yet one easily backed up example.
The call to poll MJ posters speaks volumes.

tufsu1

May 06, 2010, 04:11:43 PM
maybe I'm just dense today (or everyday), but I have no idea what that means...can you put it in plain English please?

north miami

May 06, 2010, 04:26:09 PM
maybe I'm just dense today (or everyday), but I have no idea what that means...can you put it in plain English please?



......in other words,anti sprawl MJ posters living near or in Downtown have no legitimate standing passing judgement on 9B and other outlying areas.
Anti sprawl MJ posteers living in outlying areas are assumed to be selfish and off base relative to some assumed happy neighbors.

tufsu1

May 06, 2010, 04:33:55 PM
Others may be saying that, but I'm definitely not...in fact, I live downtown and have generally advocated anti-sprawl policies for quite some time.

That said, I can also see things in a regional perspective...and as an example, don't think that Duval County should be telling St. Johns County or Clay County where and how to develop....there is a place for that, and it is at the regional (NEFRC) and statewide (DCA) levels.

In the end, Jacksonville needs to focus on making itself better....so that people feel they have a fair choice in where they choose to live, work, and play.

St. Auggie

May 06, 2010, 05:34:56 PM
In the end, Jacksonville needs to focus on making itself better....so that people feel they have a fair choice in where they choose to live, work, and play.

Amen.  If Jax would make itself the place to be then guess what, it would be the place to be.  People WANT to move out into these "sprawl" areas.  If they didnt, they wouldnt move there REGARDLESS of how much concrete they pour.

Mattius92

May 06, 2010, 05:38:21 PM
True, because there is certainly some suburbs that are so much nicer then Jacksonville.

thelakelander

May 11, 2010, 06:29:43 AM
Quote
By Dan Scanlan
The 111-year-old schoolhouse that humanitarian Eartha White built to teach Bayard's African-American children is gone.

A victim of progress and lack of funding, the one-room schoolhouse last used as a feed store at 7420 Roscoe Ave. off Philips Highway was demolished a few weeks ago to make way for Florida 9B.

Efforts to relocate it to Genovar Park in Bayard started years ago. But with no money to move it out of the way of a state road set to run between Florida 9A and U.S. 1, it was the last structure demolished before construction begins this summer.

"It is a tragic loss because of its association with Eartha White when she was an educator," said Jacksonville's senior historic planner, Joel McEachin. "It was one of the oldest one-room schoolhouses in Duval County, and one of the few remaining landmarks of Bayard."

"Once again the wrecking ball was considered the more prudent measure," added Andrew Morrow, executive director of the Mandarin Museum and Historical Society.
State officials said they worked with the city as it tried to secure an historic preservation grant to save the building, which had been moved at least once in its life.

"The state did offer to donate the building and also donate the cost that would otherwise be used to demolish it and let whatever group preserve it," said state Department of Transportation spokeswoman Sandra Mancil. "The city went to Tallahassee to get a grant to preserve it, and ... the grant was denied."

Eartha White convinced landowner Bartolo Genovar to donate property and wood for a school when she was assigned to teach in Bayard in 1899, according to Wayne Wood's "Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage." After she left, it stayed a school, then a church before it was a feed store.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-05-10/story/humanitarian-eartha-white%E2%80%99s-1899-schoolhouse-demolished-make-way-state

St. Auggie

May 11, 2010, 08:27:34 AM
Sounds like they tried, but no one cared.  I am not sure the point of posting this article here.  As another reason not to build 9b? If this school house was something many people cared about then someone would have saved it, they were offering it for FREE.  This should be more an angle to get people to care more about our history, not just more anti-9bism.

copperfiend

May 11, 2010, 08:34:52 AM
Sounds like they tried, but no one cared.  I am not sure the point of posting this article here.  As another reason not to build 9b? If this school house was something many people cared about then someone would have saved it, they were offering it for FREE.  This should be more an angle to get people to care more about our history, not just more anti-9bism.

The thread is titled "State Rd 9B". The article he posted is in relation to 9B. I guess I don't see the issue with him posting the article.

St. Auggie

May 11, 2010, 08:55:04 AM
Sorry went back and read how I said it, and I worded it poorly.  What I was trying to refer more to was I know that this is suppose to be one more reason that it is a shame that 9b is being built.  I guess I just hate it when reporters get all high and mighty and say "hey you know that thing that no one cared about, well now we are going to bring it up to try and make you feel bad."  Thats all.  Its sad that this town, and America as a general rule do not care about its history more. 

Mattius92

May 11, 2010, 11:27:34 PM
I wonder why they couldn't of just moved the schoolhouse, I guess it wasn't of that much importance.

thelakelander

May 11, 2010, 11:28:56 PM
^At the end of the day that's most likely the answer.  It just wasn't that much of an importance.

Charles Hunter

May 11, 2010, 11:34:13 PM
Wonder why the "caring" news media couldn't have written a story BEFORE the school house was torn down?  Maybe rally support to move it?  Or some of that Historic Preservation money?

thelakelander

May 11, 2010, 11:38:28 PM
^Great point.

Mattius92

May 12, 2010, 06:05:21 PM
Yeah, the media only write about negative things, people seem to care more about that, however anycould use positivity opposed to negativity.

aaapolito

May 12, 2010, 09:25:35 PM
Let's face it, the real reason to oppose 9B is because that means no more "Go Jags" sign in the grass hill on the opposite side of the 9B ramp from 9A.

Mattius92

May 12, 2010, 10:07:16 PM
Oh yeah, thats it, haha

British Shoe Company

May 18, 2010, 01:45:31 PM
Another example why barriers are needed for 9B, and 9A should get them ASAP!

TRAFFIC ALERT: Crash Closes State Road 9A Between Baymeadows, Phillips

POSTED: Tuesday, May 18, 2010
UPDATED: 1:16 pm EDT May 18, 2010
9A Crash At Phillips Highway
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A wreck involving two vehicles and at least four injuries at midday Tuesday has State Road 9A closed between Baymeadows Road and Phillips Highway.

The accident was reported just after noon in the southbound lanes near the U.S. Highway 1 exit.

Channel 4 was told two victims were trapped in one vehicle and an air ambulance was sent to transport patients.

tiny 4 logoChannel 4 has a crew headed to the scene. This story will be updated as more information becomes available, with full reports on the local station beginning at 5 p.m.

reednavy

May 18, 2010, 02:19:05 PM
The story mentions nothing about a vehicle crossing the median and smashing into another car going northbound.

Example fail.

Mattius92

May 18, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Ha Ha, Example fail...

However I do agree that median barriers are smart, everywhere is getting them. However I am sure 9B will be built cheap.

reednavy

May 18, 2010, 05:41:36 PM
I stand corrected, now that FHP has released a preliminary report. At the time though, we didn't know what happened.

However, they won't install barriers unless they widen it, but they could at least install guardrails.

"The FHP said Hampton's Chevrolet Caprice was traveling northbound on 9A when the right rear tire blew out, causing Hampton to lose control. Troopers said his car traveled through the grass median into the southbound lanes where it struck Neviaser's pickup truck and Bean's van."

stjr

July 02, 2010, 09:42:48 PM
Lots of political cover-ups in the comments below "celebrating" the beginning of 9B/I-795.

Let's see: It will benefit Nocatee, create jobs,  improve our "lifestyle", and protect wildlife!

Translation: It will create urban sprawl, won't improve any lifestyle other than the developers being enriched, and will destroy wildlife habitats.  As to jobs, we could have created those same jobs by spending these same dollars on a mass transit project.

I expect this thinking from our lock-step local Republicans but I am disappointed that Obama thinks this is how stimulus monies should best be used.


Quote
Construction Begins On State Road 9B
Federal Stimulus Money Funds Almost All Of $76.8 Million Highway Project


POSTED: Friday, July 2, 2010
UPDATED: 7:13 pm EDT July 2, 2010

State Road 9B groundbreaking
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Federal, state and local transportation officials cut the ribbon Friday on a $76.8 million highway project they expect will relieve traffic congestion in southeastern Duval County when it is completed in two years.

State Road 9B will run five miles from State Road 9A near Baymeadows Road to U.S. 1 in St. Johns County. The highway will not only relieve existing traffic backups, but should help traffic flow to the growing communities of Northwest St. Johns County -- especially Nocatee.

"We call this a real regional project because it's not just important to those of us who are from Duval County or live in Duval County, but also those in St. Johns County," said Stephanie Copelousos, secretary of the Florida Department of Transportation.

"This is one that we've been trying to do, haven't had all the funding to get it complete and with the federal stimulus dollars," Copelousos said.

All but $800,000 of the funding is coming from the Recovery Act.

"We are doing exactly what the Recovery Act was intended to do, and that' s sustain or create jobs," Copelousos said.

Federal Highway Administrator Victor Mendez traveled from Washington for the groundbreaking. He said this new road is good for safety, convenience and lifestyle.

"Certainly for all of us, just as regular citizens, we'll be able to spend more time with our families and less time in traffic," Mendez said.

Like most construction projects, traffic in the area is likely get worse before it gets better. Transportation officials expect it will be complete in the summer of 2012.

State Road 9B will initially be constructed as a four-lane concrete divided highway, but is expandable to eight lanes. In addition to several overpasses of roads and waterways, a wildlife crossing will be included under the Powers Bay Relief Bridge, with wildlife fencing to keep animals off the roadway and guide them to the crossing.

For more information on the project, including maps, photos and traffic impacts, visit SR9B.com.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/24126411/detail.html

Ocklawaha

July 02, 2010, 10:52:45 PM

UTAH


FDOT



Sam Pemberton Civil Ltd


Florida, Open tops for underpasses for amphibians are often recommended so that air, soil humidity and light conditions inside the tunnels are similar to conditions outside


A large-mammal underpass (7-8 m (23-26.2 ft) wide, 4-5 m (13.1-16.4 ft) high) along U.S. Highway 93 south of Ravalli, MT


The Puente Hills Landfill Native Habitat Preservation Authority manages almost 4,000 acres of land in southern Los Angeles County. This landmass, combined with other publicly protected lands in the Puente-Chino Hills area, is a biodiversity hotspot for a number of flora and fauna, even though it is less than 30 minutes by car from downtown L.A. The land of the Habitat Authority is bisected by Harbor Boulevard, a 4-lane road that carries approximately 30,000 vehicles per day at speeds of up to 50 MPH

I agree stjr, it won't do any of those things...

HOWEVER

This is a great start in the First Coast Area, and something in broad use elsewhere in Florida as well as other more environment friendly states.

Quote
State Road 9B will initially be constructed as a four-lane concrete divided highway, but is expandable to eight lanes. In addition to several overpasses of roads and waterways, a wildlife crossing will be included under the Powers Bay Relief Bridge, with wildlife fencing to keep animals off the roadway and guide them to the crossing.


If we don't cheer any other part of I-795, we should ALL cheer for this little detail. We should also make a lot of noise to see these crossings and directional fences retro-fitted to many area roadways, here are a few examples:

Collins Road both East and West of the Ortega River, where it slices through the wetlands between Roosevelt and Blanding. The River bridge is old and too low (especially if JTA would take note of it being one of the few places where Water Transit would make all the sense in the world. So perhaps a new slightly higher improved Collins road with fencing would have animal underpass, bridge, animal underpass...

Throughout locations in Cecil Commerce Center.

International Golf Parkway, through 12 Mile Swamp, in St. Johns County.

Several locations along Hecksher Drive.

Pottsburg Creek and Julington Creek Greenway crossings.

Green Cove Springs Hammock Preserve, in Clay County.



Anyone who has not seen one of these critter corridors in action, take the trip out to UNF on a sunny weekend day and drive through the "Sawmill Preserve".  Another great section of these is found in Seminole County where highway 46 cuts between Sanford and Sorrento, over the Wekiva River, and it's BEAR MIGRATION and wildlife preserve.  The one in Seminole keeps getting better and better, with more fencing and underpasses...

OCKLAWAHA

CS Foltz

July 03, 2010, 09:11:00 AM
Critter passageways should be an integeral part of any highway system, especially in the boondocks......I offer "Aligator Alley" as an example and that is not the only one by far! My issue is with 9B and the use of stimulus funds (our tax dollars once again!) for something that does not help anyone out other than developers and the trucking industry! Sorry tufsu, but you won't convince me otherwise!

tufsu1

July 03, 2010, 10:42:25 AM
Guess we'll have to wait a few years and see who drives on the road.

British Shoe Company

July 04, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!

The people against 9B are for a "One World Government".



reednavy

July 04, 2010, 08:56:57 PM
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!

The people against 9B are for a "One World Government".




got proof?

British Shoe Company

July 09, 2010, 10:45:12 PM
It's in the pudding. (Other than the wrecks on 9A, it has been a success).

Hopefully 9B can fund barriers.

reednavy

July 09, 2010, 10:49:34 PM
It's in the pudding. (Other than the wrecks on 9A, it has been a success).

Hopefully 9B can fund barriers.


9A should've been 3 lanes each way when it was built, it is a nightmare from 95 to Town Center PKWY/UNF DR.

At least 9B won't be as heavily traveled, at least on this first segment.

tufsu1

July 09, 2010, 10:54:30 PM
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY!

The people against 9B are for a "One World Government".

got proof?

now you sound like another regular poster   ;D

SightseerLounge

July 10, 2010, 12:26:56 AM
It's in the pudding. (Other than the wrecks on 9A, it has been a success).

Hopefully 9B can fund barriers.


9A should've been 3 lanes each way when it was built, it is a nightmare from 95 to Town Center PKWY/UNF DR.

At least 9B won't be as heavily traveled, at least on this first segment.

Yes! Preach the transportation gospel! Preach!

All of 295 should be 3 lanes minimum! Forget 795, wait until Atlantic Coast High is finished!

(Honorable mention: I-295 from Commonwealth to I-95 via Dunn & Lem Turner 6 lanes)

reednavy

July 10, 2010, 12:36:31 AM
295 should be 4 lanes minimum from Blanding to 95, and widen the Buckman.

stephendare

July 10, 2010, 06:53:39 AM
lol
frankly, after the past few weeks of fact free postings, tufsu, I wouldnt be at all surprised to find out that its going to sound like just about any poster responding to your points.

tufsu1

July 10, 2010, 07:38:12 PM
295 should be 4 lanes minimum from Blanding to 95, and widen the Buckman.

there is a project to add c/d roads to 295 from Blanding to Collins...that will mean 10 lanes total...there are 8 lanes on the Buckman...and there will soon be 8 lanes from San Jose to 95

tufsu1

July 10, 2010, 07:39:52 PM
lol
frankly, after the past few weeks of fact free postings, tufsu, I wouldnt be at all surprised to find out that its going to sound like just about any poster responding to your points.

you know...it is really sad how often you attack posters when they don't agree with you...and then you ask folks to cite sources but have a hard time doing it yourself.

but no worries, I'm done debating you...it is a useless, time wasting activity.

Charles Hunter

July 10, 2010, 08:02:53 PM
Quote
9A should've been 3 lanes each way when it was built, it is a nightmare from 95 to Town Center PKWY/UNF DR.

At least 9B won't be as heavily traveled, at least on this first segment.

Yes! Preach the transportation gospel! Preach!

All of 295 should be 3 lanes minimum! Forget 795, wait until Atlantic Coast High is finished!

(Honorable mention: I-295 from Commonwealth to I-95 via Dunn & Lem Turner 6 lanes)

295 should be 4 lanes minimum from Blanding to 95, and widen the Buckman.

And, if the DOT or JTA were to propose the hundreds of millions it would take to do that, these same people, and many other, would be be screaming that the money should be spent on transit (with no argument from me)

Mattius92

July 15, 2010, 03:05:14 PM
Of course it would be sooo much smarter to invest in better transit (commuter rail!!!) and updating our CURRENT infrastructure, but noooo they just build more and more roads that just create more sprawl, and not really fixing the problem.

thelakelander

August 20, 2013, 12:14:45 PM
You could see this coming from a mile away......four years ago.....

I noticed the other day that there is a fairly large isolated rural property with a commercial land use designation along 9B about half way between 9A and US 1.  The property surrounding it has a low density residential land use designation and runs up the east side of 9B/9A, all the way to the new high school near Baymeadows Road. 

So, the area has already been set up for low density sprawl.  9B will just be positioned to give that isolated land prime highway frontage.  With a lack of a street grid, if this area ever fully develops, expect choke points at Baymeadows, Philips and a future interchange with 9B.

In today's Jax Daily Record:



Quote
Davis family business preparing 184-acre site in South Jacksonville for commercial development

Just as Florida 9A sparked development along its path in eastern Jacksonville, Florida 9B is starting to do the same as it stretches toward St. Johns County.

D.D.I. Inc., the Davis family ownership company whose holdings include the significant Nocatee development in St. Johns County, is laying the regulatory groundwork to develop a 184-acre tract at the Florida 9A-9B split in South Jacksonville, north of Bayard.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540296

So we're now seeing the real reason roads like 9B are being subsidized into reality. Unfortunately, something tells me we'll never approve the amount of density needed around this highway to put us in the black in the long term.

wsansewjs

August 20, 2013, 12:26:56 PM
You could see this coming from a mile away......four years ago.....

I noticed the other day that there is a fairly large isolated rural property with a commercial land use designation along 9B about half way between 9A and US 1.  The property surrounding it has a low density residential land use designation and runs up the east side of 9B/9A, all the way to the new high school near Baymeadows Road. 

So, the area has already been set up for low density sprawl.  9B will just be positioned to give that isolated land prime highway frontage.  With a lack of a street grid, if this area ever fully develops, expect choke points at Baymeadows, Philips and a future interchange with 9B.

In today's Jax Daily Record:



Quote
Davis family business preparing 184-acre site in South Jacksonville for commercial development

Just as Florida 9A sparked development along its path in eastern Jacksonville, Florida 9B is starting to do the same as it stretches toward St. Johns County.

D.D.I. Inc., the Davis family ownership company whose holdings include the significant Nocatee development in St. Johns County, is laying the regulatory groundwork to develop a 184-acre tract at the Florida 9A-9B split in South Jacksonville, north of Bayard.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540296

So we're now seeing the real reason roads like 9B are being subsidized into reality. Unfortunately, something tells me we'll never approve the amount of density needed around this highway to put us in the black in the long term.

And can I even mention that it is really an eyesore already to look at it as they cleared the land, void of trees and shrubs, and feeling so sick in the stomach to know that it will bring more problems than solutions?

-Josh

thelakelander

August 20, 2013, 12:31:46 PM
^I noticed just about every thing from Race Track Road to the Flagler office park has been clear cut for the new 9B interchange with I-95. Let someone clear out a few trees for a digital billboard and see how long it takes for all hell to break loose. ;)

fsujax

August 20, 2013, 01:13:07 PM
yeah, our prioroties as a community are whack. i can't believe the way people act over digital billboards, but yet it's perfectly ok to clear cut acres of land for an interchange.

Jason

September 09, 2013, 09:35:11 AM
Just when I thought they were done cutting, more clearing has started within the last week.  Looks like they are prepping land for the feeder/distrubutor lanes on the south end of the interchange.

CityLife

September 09, 2013, 09:45:43 AM
Go check out how many acres Estuary Corp owns between JTB/295 and Nocatee and then look at the directors of the company.
http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Jacksonville/estuary-corporation-4263774.aspx

They are going to make a lot of money developing the land between Nocatee and JTB/295.

fsquid

September 09, 2013, 10:00:01 AM
Just when I thought they were done cutting, more clearing has started within the last week.  Looks like they are prepping land for the feeder/distrubutor lanes on the south end of the interchange.

second phase going through to I-95

wsansewjs

September 09, 2013, 10:02:43 AM
Go check out how many acres Estuary Corp owns between JTB/295 and Nocatee and then look at the directors of the company.
http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Jacksonville/estuary-corporation-4263774.aspx

They are going to make a lot of money developing the land between Nocatee and JTB/295.

I smell a conspiracy theory coming up!

-Josh

CityLife

September 09, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
Go check out how many acres Estuary Corp owns between JTB/295 and Nocatee and then look at the directors of the company.
http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Jacksonville/estuary-corporation-4263774.aspx

They are going to make a lot of money developing the land between Nocatee and JTB/295.

I smell a conspiracy theory coming up!

-Josh

No conspiracy needed.

Jason

September 10, 2013, 01:07:09 PM
Just when I thought they were done cutting, more clearing has started within the last week.  Looks like they are prepping land for the feeder/distrubutor lanes on the south end of the interchange.

second phase going through to I-95


Right, but the land appeard to be completely cleared for the interchange and within the last week they have started clearing even more.  Mainly on the southwest side of the highway.  Just amazes me how much "has" to be cut down for this thing.

fsquid

September 10, 2013, 03:07:21 PM
no clue, I'm not a transportation engineer.

thelakelander

September 10, 2013, 04:06:16 PM
Just start a rumor that the land was cleared for a digital billboard.  People will notice the thousands of trees missing.

jcjohnpaint

September 10, 2013, 04:36:58 PM
It amazes me how long it takes to get a project off the ground intown when this crap is totally started before the break of the news story.   Not even a blink of an eye to tear down a forest, but when you want to put something up in a blighted landscape you have all the politicians around the area to get through first. 

Charles Hunter

September 10, 2013, 06:01:31 PM
The work about to start includes the full interchange with I-95, including stub outs for the eventual extension into St. Johns County. 
Link to picture (can't figure out how to embed the pic)  http://northfloridaroads.com/upload/documents/9_b_art_w_aerial.pdf

I heard the other day that the part now under construction will open next week.

spuwho

September 10, 2013, 08:59:54 PM
Just when I thought they were done cutting, more clearing has started within the last week.  Looks like they are prepping land for the feeder/distrubutor lanes on the south end of the interchange.

second phase going through to I-95


Right, but the land appeard to be completely cleared for the interchange and within the last week they have started clearing even more.  Mainly on the southwest side of the highway.  Just amazes me how much "has" to be cut down for this thing.

The "original" forest of this area has been cut down several times dating back to the 1800's. The trees they are taking down now are probably no more than 25 years old at the most. I don't like to see them go, but I would like to see the mitigation parcel that was acquired to make up for it.

Not sure there can be a conspiracy theory on land use when the ROW and centerline for I-795 (9B) was struck and acquired many years ago. Plenty of time for a property to turn over several times before the actual road was built.  However I did find it somewhat convenient on how the state designed a bridge for a future interchange behind Bayard that connects to nothing. Davis family can say thanks for that!

Lake, I understand why you believe highways are subsidized, but must everything be in the context of a subsidy? I wouldn't expect the densities you think are needed to "pay for" the road outside Bayard. I would expect it closer to the urban core. And just how quickly must one reach the desired density before the road is considered paid for?

thelakelander

September 10, 2013, 09:18:18 PM
Not sure there can be a conspiracy theory on land use when the ROW and centerline for I-795 (9B) was struck and acquired many years ago. Plenty of time for a property to turn over several times before the actual road was built.  However I did find it somewhat convenient on how the state designed a bridge for a future interchange behind Bayard that connects to nothing. Davis family can say thanks for that!

LOL, what other reason is there for the road?  You don't really believe we build these things to relieve traffic congestion do you?  I agree that this isn't a conspiracy. This is just typical business and it's been going on across the country for decades.

Quote
Lake, I understand why you believe highways are subsidized, but must everything be in the context of a subsidy? I wouldn't expect the densities you think are needed to "pay for" the road outside Bayard. I would expect it closer to the urban core. And just how quickly must one reach the desired density before the road is considered paid for?

Yes. I believe in calling a spade a spade. If we're being asked to subsidize the construction of a road for development, we should at least expect future development to cover it's own cost.  If it isn't, then eventually someone is going broke.  If the goal is to relieve congestion, then there are significantly more affordable methods that can be applied to resolve this issue (including strategic road building, connecting, and widening).

Btw, I'd expect the same thing with mass transit.  Indirectly, these projects should be designed to help build a fiscally sustainable community.

The desired density should be whatever it takes to get the tax rolls of economic activity generated by the investment to cover it's capital and long term maintenance costs.  Again, if we're not doing this on some sort of level, money to subsidize has to come from somewhere (or at the expense of something else) and we've reached the point where we can't expect to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

spuwho

September 10, 2013, 10:28:57 PM
Not sure there can be a conspiracy theory on land use when the ROW and centerline for I-795 (9B) was struck and acquired many years ago. Plenty of time for a property to turn over several times before the actual road was built.  However I did find it somewhat convenient on how the state designed a bridge for a future interchange behind Bayard that connects to nothing. Davis family can say thanks for that!

LOL, what other reason is there for the road?  You don't really believe we build these things to relieve traffic congestion do you?  I agree that this isn't a conspiracy. This is just typical business and it's been going on across the country for decades.

Quote
Lake, I understand why you believe highways are subsidized, but must everything be in the context of a subsidy? I wouldn't expect the densities you think are needed to "pay for" the road outside Bayard. I would expect it closer to the urban core. And just how quickly must one reach the desired density before the road is considered paid for?

Yes. I believe in calling a spade a spade. If we're being asked to subsidize the construction of a road for development, we should at least expect future development to cover it's own cost.  If it isn't, then eventually someone is going broke.  If the goal is to relieve congestion, then there are significantly more affordable methods that can be applied to resolve this issue (including strategic road building, connecting, and widening).

Btw, I'd expect the same thing with mass transit.  Indirectly, these projects should be designed to help build a fiscally sustainable community.

The desired density should be whatever it takes to get the tax rolls of economic activity generated by the investment to cover it's capital and long term maintenance costs.  Again, if we're not doing this on some sort of level, money to subsidize has to come from somewhere (or at the expense of something else) and we've reached the point where we can't expect to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Understood, but how does one subsidize a road designed as part of a national network? You will never see densities that will pay for I-71 through Redhaw, Ohio. Your subsidy discussion assumes that all roads must have adjoining densities to validate their existence. That approach doesn't make sense when you are designing as part of a national system.

Is I-795 needed as part of the national system? Probably not. Is it needed as part of a regional transportation system. Probably. Is it needed to get from Nocatee/St Johns to the Edge City? As evidenced by the backup on 295 East from Philips Hwy to the future 795 merge this morning, I would say yes.

However, I do agree that not all roads are built altruistically. There are always external influences in direction, and how they are built. I-795 won't be any different.

thelakelander

September 10, 2013, 11:03:46 PM
Understood, but how does one subsidize a road designed as part of a national network? You will never see densities that will pay for I-71 through Redhaw, Ohio. Your subsidy discussion assumes that all roads must have adjoining densities to validate their existence. That approach doesn't make sense when you are designing as part of a national system.

Is I-795 needed as part of the national system? Probably not. Is it needed as part of a regional transportation system. Probably. Is it needed to get from Nocatee/St Johns to the Edge City? As evidenced by the backup on 295 East from Philips Hwy to the future 795 merge this morning, I would say yes.

I believe the national network would be just fine without the Outer Beltway and 9B.  History indicates that cities like Portland and Memphis didn't suffer when they stopped expressways from penetrating their cores.  Others like Milwaukee have actually seen more economic development from taking existing expressways down.

Being in the transportation planning industry, I've seen the data behind enough models used to justify projects like this that I'm highly skeptical of them in general.  I really wish we'd just admit we do these things to open up cheap land to new development opportunity and to keep the road construction industry alive. 

I-295 backs up because of a bottleneck caused by a reduction in northbound lanes at an interchange where you also have traffic trying to merge in from an on-ramp.  Such a situation can be resolved without investing a couple of hundred million on a new highway a few miles south.  The same thing still occurs on I-295 westbound where I-95 traffic merges in heading to Mandarin and Orange Park.  On top of that, the construction of the 9B ramp, resulting through lanes shifting through the construction site doesn't help with rush hour traffic flow either.  A cheaper option would have been to six lane 9A/I-295 from the start.  Now we're paying for 9B and toll lanes in I-295.

With that said, I believe a portion of 9B was actually funded with stimulus dollars.  So one could argue it's a "jobs" project.

fsujax

September 11, 2013, 11:20:26 AM
Imagine the outcry if we were proposing to spend $30 million a mile on a transit project and that amout is only for 5.5 miles of road. Disgusting. I-795 is not needed. Just like 675, 985 and 575 really do not do much to help traffic in metro Atlanta, except dump more cars onto an already crowded highway network and cause huge choke points.

Gators312

September 11, 2013, 03:58:03 PM
Not sure there can be a conspiracy theory on land use when the ROW and centerline for I-795 (9B) was struck and acquired many years ago. Plenty of time for a property to turn over several times before the actual road was built.  However I did find it somewhat convenient on how the state designed a bridge for a future interchange behind Bayard that connects to nothing. Davis family can say thanks for that!

LOL, what other reason is there for the road?  You don't really believe we build these things to relieve traffic congestion do you?  I agree that this isn't a conspiracy. This is just typical business and it's been going on across the country for decades.


Exactly Lake.   Not a conspiracy, but I think there would be much more scrutiny of how our tax dollars are spent if more people understood what is going on.   

If they really cared about relieving congestion you wouldn't see the Clay County portion routed in the way they have planned.  This is all about opening up land for development by Reinhold and other well connected parties in all 3 counties.   The former head of FLDOT Kopelousos was hired as County Manager. What does that tell you about the GOB network and making sure they get what they want.   

control

September 18, 2013, 05:07:26 PM
Just when I thought they were done cutting, more clearing has started within the last week.  Looks like they are prepping land for the feeder/distrubutor lanes on the south end of the interchange.

second phase going through to I-95
maybe starting to clear for the Bass Pro Shop, scheduled to open in roughly the area you are describing in 9 months


Right, but the land appeard to be completely cleared for the interchange and within the last week they have started clearing even more.  Mainly on the southwest side of the highway.  Just amazes me how much "has" to be cut down for this thing.

thelakelander

September 18, 2013, 06:15:48 PM
I doubt it. I don't believe Bass Pro is an official go at this point.

edjax

September 18, 2013, 06:20:36 PM
They show St Johns County on their website as future store. 

thelakelander

September 18, 2013, 06:28:28 PM
For comparison's sake, Fuddrucker's claimed they were coming to the Jacksonville Landing.  They've even went as far as pulling a building permit and doing some initial construction.  THis went on for a few years before we finally accepted it wasn't going to happen.

With that said, Bass Pro isn't opening that store until they can get access from I-95.  At this point, I don't believe funding to extend anything south of the I-95/SR 9B interchange has been found or approved.  Even if funding were rapidly found, I'd seriously doubt construction would already be underway. Government doesn't work that fast.

edjax

September 18, 2013, 07:49:10 PM
According to their website the key was when the state funded the 9B/l95 interchange.  So it would appear that was the key.  Agree clearing now probably not for them at this point as the interchange will not be done until 2016 but it would appear they plan to open prior to Phase 3 of 9B

thelakelander

September 18, 2013, 09:17:49 PM
Yeah, they won't be able to open until they have access from the new interchange to Race Track Road.  That's the part that isn't funded.  Maybe St. Johns County will pay to build it?

tufsu1

September 18, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
the issue of who will build Phase 3 of 9B has not been resolved yet...and it most likely won't get built until 2016...so don't expect to see Bass Pro Shops before then

Jason

October 04, 2013, 11:49:58 AM
Land clearing continues.  Jersey barriers are up on the northbound side of I95, and the sound walls continue to rise...

themathochist

December 03, 2013, 11:00:48 PM
Understood, but how does one subsidize a road designed as part of a national network? You will never see densities that will pay for I-71 through Redhaw, Ohio. Your subsidy discussion assumes that all roads must have adjoining densities to validate their existence. That approach doesn't make sense when you are designing as part of a national system.

Is I-795 needed as part of the national system? Probably not. Is it needed as part of a regional transportation system. Probably. Is it needed to get from Nocatee/St Johns to the Edge City? As evidenced by the backup on 295 East from Philips Hwy to the future 795 merge this morning, I would say yes.

I believe the national network would be just fine without the Outer Beltway and 9B.  History indicates that cities like Portland and Memphis didn't suffer when they stopped expressways from penetrating their cores.  Others like Milwaukee have actually seen more economic development from taking existing expressways down.

Being in the transportation planning industry, I've seen the data behind enough models used to justify projects like this that I'm highly skeptical of them in general.  I really wish we'd just admit we do these things to open up cheap land to new development opportunity and to keep the road construction industry alive. 

I-295 backs up because of a bottleneck caused by a reduction in northbound lanes at an interchange where you also have traffic trying to merge in from an on-ramp.  Such a situation can be resolved without investing a couple of hundred million on a new highway a few miles south.  The same thing still occurs on I-295 westbound where I-95 traffic merges in heading to Mandarin and Orange Park.  On top of that, the construction of the 9B ramp, resulting through lanes shifting through the construction site doesn't help with rush hour traffic flow either.  A cheaper option would have been to six lane 9A/I-295 from the start.  Now we're paying for 9B and toll lanes in I-295.

With that said, I believe a portion of 9B was actually funded with stimulus dollars.  So one could argue it's a "jobs" project.

I take I-295 to 9A every day to work and it makes me really mad to see how 9B has made the traffic around the interchange EVEN WORSE. Now, not only is there heavy traffic due to lane reduction and on-ramp merging from Phillips Hwy, we also have another traffic snag just a few hundred feet further along, where 9B merges with 9A and there is yet another set of lane reduction. A simple widening of lanes would have been a better option for both traffic and reduction in sprawl.

spuwho

December 04, 2013, 01:08:18 AM
Understood, but how does one subsidize a road designed as part of a national network? You will never see densities that will pay for I-71 through Redhaw, Ohio. Your subsidy discussion assumes that all roads must have adjoining densities to validate their existence. That approach doesn't make sense when you are designing as part of a national system.

Is I-795 needed as part of the national system? Probably not. Is it needed as part of a regional transportation system. Probably. Is it needed to get from Nocatee/St Johns to the Edge City? As evidenced by the backup on 295 East from Philips Hwy to the future 795 merge this morning, I would say yes.

I believe the national network would be just fine without the Outer Beltway and 9B.  History indicates that cities like Portland and Memphis didn't suffer when they stopped expressways from penetrating their cores.  Others like Milwaukee have actually seen more economic development from taking existing expressways down.

Being in the transportation planning industry, I've seen the data behind enough models used to justify projects like this that I'm highly skeptical of them in general.  I really wish we'd just admit we do these things to open up cheap land to new development opportunity and to keep the road construction industry alive. 

I-295 backs up because of a bottleneck caused by a reduction in northbound lanes at an interchange where you also have traffic trying to merge in from an on-ramp.  Such a situation can be resolved without investing a couple of hundred million on a new highway a few miles south.  The same thing still occurs on I-295 westbound where I-95 traffic merges in heading to Mandarin and Orange Park.  On top of that, the construction of the 9B ramp, resulting through lanes shifting through the construction site doesn't help with rush hour traffic flow either.  A cheaper option would have been to six lane 9A/I-295 from the start.  Now we're paying for 9B and toll lanes in I-295.

With that said, I believe a portion of 9B was actually funded with stimulus dollars.  So one could argue it's a "jobs" project.

I take I-295 to 9A every day to work and it makes me really mad to see how 9B has made the traffic around the interchange EVEN WORSE. Now, not only is there heavy traffic due to lane reduction and on-ramp merging from Phillips Hwy, we also have another traffic snag just a few hundred feet further along, where 9B merges with 9A and there is yet another set of lane reduction. A simple widening of lanes would have been a better option for both traffic and reduction in sprawl.

I agree on one point here. I have been observing the backup there since it opened. 295 East is 3 lanes from 95 to just east of Philips highway, where it declines to 2 lanes. Goes under 9b, and then merges with the 2 lanes of 9B and back to 2 lanes once again!  So it causes two kinds of backups now.

I tried using 295 East at evening rush and its a waste of time. The issues are the same as traffic restacks itself after so many lane reductions. It doesn't clear until past Baymeadows (but backs up again north of JTB)

Something got left out when FDOT had the 9A/9B interchange redesigned to reduce costs. I will have to go back and look at the original layout FDOT had in mind and see what got dropped.

They were discussing adding a 3rd lane on the 295 East Beltway between 9B and Merrill Road, but with the Overland Bridge project in flight, and the need to reconstruct 95 between University and 295 in the south, it might be a few years before it is done.

mbwright

December 04, 2013, 08:02:11 AM
You would think that after all these years, freeways could be properly designed for traffic flow.  I recall when the Buckman bridge reopened, they had to do a bunch or redos to the merging lanes between UNF and Mandarin.  Seems like they did the most complicated way possible, but was later redone.  I don't think the traffic engineers, road engineers talk to each other, or drive.

carpnter

December 04, 2013, 08:43:45 AM
Understood, but how does one subsidize a road designed as part of a national network? You will never see densities that will pay for I-71 through Redhaw, Ohio. Your subsidy discussion assumes that all roads must have adjoining densities to validate their existence. That approach doesn't make sense when you are designing as part of a national system.

Is I-795 needed as part of the national system? Probably not. Is it needed as part of a regional transportation system. Probably. Is it needed to get from Nocatee/St Johns to the Edge City? As evidenced by the backup on 295 East from Philips Hwy to the future 795 merge this morning, I would say yes.

I believe the national network would be just fine without the Outer Beltway and 9B.  History indicates that cities like Portland and Memphis didn't suffer when they stopped expressways from penetrating their cores.  Others like Milwaukee have actually seen more economic development from taking existing expressways down.

Being in the transportation planning industry, I've seen the data behind enough models used to justify projects like this that I'm highly skeptical of them in general.  I really wish we'd just admit we do these things to open up cheap land to new development opportunity and to keep the road construction industry alive. 

I-295 backs up because of a bottleneck caused by a reduction in northbound lanes at an interchange where you also have traffic trying to merge in from an on-ramp.  Such a situation can be resolved without investing a couple of hundred million on a new highway a few miles south.  The same thing still occurs on I-295 westbound where I-95 traffic merges in heading to Mandarin and Orange Park.  On top of that, the construction of the 9B ramp, resulting through lanes shifting through the construction site doesn't help with rush hour traffic flow either.  A cheaper option would have been to six lane 9A/I-295 from the start.  Now we're paying for 9B and toll lanes in I-295.

With that said, I believe a portion of 9B was actually funded with stimulus dollars.  So one could argue it's a "jobs" project.

I take I-295 to 9A every day to work and it makes me really mad to see how 9B has made the traffic around the interchange EVEN WORSE. Now, not only is there heavy traffic due to lane reduction and on-ramp merging from Phillips Hwy, we also have another traffic snag just a few hundred feet further along, where 9B merges with 9A and there is yet another set of lane reduction. A simple widening of lanes would have been a better option for both traffic and reduction in sprawl.

I agree on one point here. I have been observing the backup there since it opened. 295 East is 3 lanes from 95 to just east of Philips highway, where it declines to 2 lanes. Goes under 9b, and then merges with the 2 lanes of 9B and back to 2 lanes once again!  So it causes two kinds of backups now.

I tried using 295 East at evening rush and its a waste of time. The issues are the same as traffic restacks itself after so many lane reductions. It doesn't clear until past Baymeadows (but backs up again north of JTB)

Something got left out when FDOT had the 9A/9B interchange redesigned to reduce costs. I will have to go back and look at the original layout FDOT had in mind and see what got dropped.

They were discussing adding a 3rd lane on the 295 East Beltway between 9B and Merrill Road, but with the Overland Bridge project in flight, and the need to reconstruct 95 between University and 295 in the south, it might be a few years before it is done.

What got left out was any semblance of common sense by the designer/engineer.  They have 4 lanes reducing down to two in less than a mile, I am not a traffic engineer and I could have told them that was going to be a problem.  What they should have done is reduce 9B down to 1 lane before it merges into 295N and then either let that one lane merge into the right lane of 295N or extend it all the way to Baymeadows Rd where it would become an exit only lane.  The way they have it designed now is beyond riciculous. 

pierre

December 04, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
What got left out was any semblance of common sense by the designer/engineer.  They have 4 lanes reducing down to two in less than a mile, I am not a traffic engineer and I could have told them that was going to be a problem.  What they should have done is reduce 9B down to 1 lane before it merges into 295N and then either let that one lane merge into the right lane of 295N or extend it all the way to Baymeadows Rd where it would become an exit only lane.  The way they have it designed now is beyond riciculous.

I was going to post something similar. Why not bring 9B down to one lane prior to it merging with 9A. It would seem like an easy fix.

Maybe I just haven't been to enough cities, but it sure seems like we have more "lane endings" and "merger lanes" than any city I have been to.

thelakelander

December 04, 2013, 09:50:03 AM
According to the FDOT's draft project list on line ( http://d2wpph.com/index.html ) they will add "Managed Lanes" to I-295 between JTB and 9B starting next year.  In DOT-speak "managed lanes" = "toll express lanes".  The section of I-295 express lanes between the Buckman Bridge and I-95 is supposed to start construction by mid 2014. So you'll soon be able to pay some extra cash for the right to avoid the backups in the regular lanes.

Also, according to that DOT website, there will be a public hearing Monday, December 9th at 5:30pm to discuss their tentative work program.  The hearing will be held at their offices adjacent to the I-10 / I-95 interchange.

Traveller

December 04, 2013, 09:59:51 AM
Maybe I just haven't been to enough cities, but it sure seems like we have more "lane endings" and "merger lanes" than any city I have been to.

For about a year, I reverse commuted to Tysons Corner from Arlington, VA.  As you approach the I-66 & VA 267 junction heading east, ten lanes converge into two in the span of about a mile:
- 3 from the Dulles toll road
- 2 from the Dulles access road
- 3 from I-66
- 2 from the VA 7 entrance ramps onto I-66

Let me tell you how much fun that mile is during afternoon rush hour.
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