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About Nocatee
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Nocatee, Florida (pronounced ˈnäk-ˈā-ˈtē) is an unincorporated master-planned community in St. Johns County and the extreme southeast corner of Duval County (the city of Jacksonville), Florida, United States.
Nocatee is an approved Development of Regional Impact (DRI) under Section 380.06 of the Florida Statutes. The mixed used development is situated on approximately 13,323 acres, which 11,332 acres are located in northeastern St. Johns County and approximately 1,991 acres are located in southeastern Jacksonville, Florida.
Nocatee is an approved Development of Regional Impact (DRI) under Section 380.06 of the Florida Statutes. The mixed used development is situated on approximately 13,323 acres, which 11,332 acres are located in northeastern St. Johns County and approximately 1,991 acres are located in southeastern Jacksonville, Florida.
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Nocatee is a 15,000-acre development is located between the Intracoastal waterway and U.S. 1 approximately halfway between Jacksonville and Saint Augustine.
excerpt of an article in the 9/09 edition of the Florida Times Union Shorelines section
"Nocatee is a master-planned town west of Ponte Vedra Beach with about 400 of a planned 13,000 homes built so far. The development has sections set aside for commercial offices, schools, nature reserves, neighborhood parks and greenways, which are protected wildlife corridors."
excerpt of an article in the 9/09 edition of the Florida Times Union Shorelines section
"Nocatee is a master-planned town west of Ponte Vedra Beach with about 400 of a planned 13,000 homes built so far. The development has sections set aside for commercial offices, schools, nature reserves, neighborhood parks and greenways, which are protected wildlife corridors."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocatee,_St._Johns_County,_Florida
Nocatee Town Center
The Nocatee Town Center will eventually serve as Nocatee's Downtown core. Anchored by a Publix shopping center, the first phase with actual buildings is scheduled to open February 2010. Outside of the Publix shopping center, streets and sidewalks have been put in place. Incorporating Smart Growth principles, the Town Center wil eventually encompass over 300 acres within the heart of Nocatee.
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Anchored by a main street of great stores, charming places to eat and drink, and specialty shops, the Town Center of Nocatee will be a lively new version of the traditional pedestrian friendly downtown. Opportunities for “in-town” living will be available and both corporate and professional office space will ultimately provide a new employment center for the region.
http://www.nocatee.com/TownLife/TownCenter.aspx
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"Our objective is to create a Town Center in Nocatee that blends interesting and inviting landscapes, puts ample parking within easy reach of shops and offices and provides people places for enjoyment," said Rick Ray, managing partner with the PARC Group, developers of the Nocatee complex, a vast, evolving residential and commercial center that spans portions of Duval and St. Johns counties.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2010-01-06/story/nocatee_town_center_scheduled_to_open_next_month
Nocatee As an Employment Center
MDI (Medical Development International) is the first firm to relocate to Nocatee. Nocatee Parkway separates their office building from the Town Center. When complete, MDI's office complex will feature as much as 200,000 square feet of office space.
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About 16 years ago, Willich started MDI in Virginia with about 25 employees. MDI is a health care management services and technology company. Through the years, business has grown tremendously and he had to make a decision: He could out-source the work to India or elsewhere, or expand and hire more Americans. He chose the latter. In 2003, he moved the corporate headquarters to Ponte Vedra Beach. Since then, he has hired about 125 new employees. About half of those employees are younger than 40 and 20 percent are veterans.
Now he is moving the headquarters once again, this time to the Nocatee development. He plans to move to the new office around Thanksgiving, then he will bring another division of his corporation to the original Ponte Vedra Beach office location. All of this means more jobs in St. Johns County and more commercial growth, something for which the county commissioners have been clamoring. But that job growth could be slowed because of the impact fees Willich has to pay.
The county has required him to spend about $500,000 to construct a road outside his office complex in Nocatee; now he has to pay another $500,000 in impact fees. He discussed the issue Wednesday with Stevenson, who represents the Nocatee area. Willich said that not only is he contributing to the local economy by paying income taxes, but he's keeping employees who live in the county from leaving and going to Duval County to work. Those employees pay property taxes and support the local economy. In addition, that $1 million could be used to hire 20 new employees, who in turn would buy homes in the county and pay taxes.
"We live here, we're moving from one part of the county to another and I'm given a $1 million tax for the privilege of employing my 200 employees," Willich said. Stevenson said she would look into the issue with County Attorney Patrick McCormack and County Administrator Michael Wanchick.
Now he is moving the headquarters once again, this time to the Nocatee development. He plans to move to the new office around Thanksgiving, then he will bring another division of his corporation to the original Ponte Vedra Beach office location. All of this means more jobs in St. Johns County and more commercial growth, something for which the county commissioners have been clamoring. But that job growth could be slowed because of the impact fees Willich has to pay.
The county has required him to spend about $500,000 to construct a road outside his office complex in Nocatee; now he has to pay another $500,000 in impact fees. He discussed the issue Wednesday with Stevenson, who represents the Nocatee area. Willich said that not only is he contributing to the local economy by paying income taxes, but he's keeping employees who live in the county from leaving and going to Duval County to work. Those employees pay property taxes and support the local economy. In addition, that $1 million could be used to hire 20 new employees, who in turn would buy homes in the county and pay taxes.
"We live here, we're moving from one part of the county to another and I'm given a $1 million tax for the privilege of employing my 200 employees," Willich said. Stevenson said she would look into the issue with County Attorney Patrick McCormack and County Administrator Michael Wanchick.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/091708/nes_332656534.shtml
In addition to MDI's plans, Flagler Development Group purchased land for the development of a 675,000 square foot corporate office park two years ago.
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Nocatee, an all-inclusive development designed to meet all the needs of its inhabitants, will add another piece of its live-work-play trifecta: a 675,000-square-foot office park.
Flagler Development Co., a Jacksonville-based real estate developer, paid $12 million for the 54 developable acres. The office park, which will eventually include four or five buildings, is expected to create approximately 4,000 jobs upon the completion of the build-out in 2015. The project is estimated to cost more than $100 million to develop and construct. The office space will be just west of the planned retail component being developed by Regency Centers, a local retail developer. Dubbed Nocatee Town Center, the retail complex just signed Publix as a primary tenant.
"We will be located within the central core of business and amenities," said Karl Hanson, Flagler's vice president and market officer for North Florida.
Flagler is the developer behind several Jacksonville office parks, including the Flagler Center off Old St. Augustine Road and the Office Centre at Southpoint near Butler Boulevard. Hanson said similar businesses to those found in Flagler's existing corporate parks - such as Web developers or auto companies - will likely wind up in the Nocatee development.
"The types of jobs we're expecting are corporate, such as regional headquarters offices," he said.
The first building's construction is slated for completion in late 2009 or early 2010.
Flagler Development Co., a Jacksonville-based real estate developer, paid $12 million for the 54 developable acres. The office park, which will eventually include four or five buildings, is expected to create approximately 4,000 jobs upon the completion of the build-out in 2015. The project is estimated to cost more than $100 million to develop and construct. The office space will be just west of the planned retail component being developed by Regency Centers, a local retail developer. Dubbed Nocatee Town Center, the retail complex just signed Publix as a primary tenant.
"We will be located within the central core of business and amenities," said Karl Hanson, Flagler's vice president and market officer for North Florida.
Flagler is the developer behind several Jacksonville office parks, including the Flagler Center off Old St. Augustine Road and the Office Centre at Southpoint near Butler Boulevard. Hanson said similar businesses to those found in Flagler's existing corporate parks - such as Web developers or auto companies - will likely wind up in the Nocatee development.
"The types of jobs we're expecting are corporate, such as regional headquarters offices," he said.
The first building's construction is slated for completion in late 2009 or early 2010.
The first building was originally scheduled to be completed in late 2009. At this time, construction on this project has not began.
The Nocatee Splash Water Park
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Nocatee fun, like everything else, is planned to be unlike the best of the best. The Nocatee Water Park is planned as a major component of the new Nocatee Community Park. The Park which is on schedule for opening in the spring of 2010, is a resort-style water playground and a major recreational destination for Nocatee residents of all ages. With stunning new water play structures and room to relax, the Nocatee Water Park will include a children’s interactive water spray ground; a “lazy river” tube ride through cascading waterfalls; and a 53-foot water slide tower, the highest in Northeast Florida, with two high speed water slides. The Park also includes a brand new community center, home to the Nocatee Information Center and fitness club.
http://www.nocatee.com/ParksRecreation/waterPark.aspx
The Nocatee Community Park
Although the Nocatee Splash Water Park and Community Park are centrally located, they serve more as regional park destinations than the walkable public spaces located in neighborhoods like Riverside, San Marco or Springfield. Nevertheless, despite the economy, Nocatee's developers have still made a decision to move forward with their implementation.
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In true Nocatee style, this 75-acre eco-friendly park celebrates the joys of Florida living. Nature and jogging trails wind through lush greenery and past picturesque lakes. Soccer fields encourage friendly competition. There’s even a dog park for canine socializing. And for the newest place to cool off, the Nocatee Water Park will have water slides, a lazy river, and sparkling swimming pools for kids of all ages. Or, if you prefer the indoors, the Nocatee Community Center will have lots of fitness activities to enjoy. Whether it’s a soccer game, a picnic near the lake with family and friends, Nocatee Community Park is central to everything fun.
http://www.nocatee.com/ParksRecreation/communityPark.aspx
This long winding road eventually dies out at the Nocatee Community Park.
Nocatee Neighborhoods
The Smart Growth Principles don't apply to Nocatee's neighborhoods. Unlike the New Urbanist communities of Celebration, Seaside and Baldwin Park, Nocatee's "residential neighborhoods" are individual gate subdivisions, typical of what one would find on Argyle Forest or Hodges Boulevards. They may not be walkable but those who value gated communities will love what Nocatee has to offer. Like other areas of the region, construction has been slowed by national economic conditions.
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Nocatee will consist of several individual "communities", including
Austin Park, a single-family development located within the Nocatee PUD (PUD 200202; Ordinance 202-65). Austin Park was reviewed for development approval by St. Johns County as Sandy Ridge South (MDP 2005-193); the Master Development Plan (MDP) was approved by the Board of County Commissioners. Austin Park is approximately 85 acres (340,000 m2) and has been plotted for 189 single family homes.
Coastal Oaks, constructed by Toll Brothers, and offering single-family homes and town homes.
Riverwood, an age-restricted community by Del Webb offering single family homes, condominium homes and town homes.
Tidewater, a condominium home community by Pulte Homes.
The Palms, a future single-family community by Ryland Homes.
Willowcove, which will offer single family homes.
Austin Park, a single-family development located within the Nocatee PUD (PUD 200202; Ordinance 202-65). Austin Park was reviewed for development approval by St. Johns County as Sandy Ridge South (MDP 2005-193); the Master Development Plan (MDP) was approved by the Board of County Commissioners. Austin Park is approximately 85 acres (340,000 m2) and has been plotted for 189 single family homes.
Coastal Oaks, constructed by Toll Brothers, and offering single-family homes and town homes.
Riverwood, an age-restricted community by Del Webb offering single family homes, condominium homes and town homes.
Tidewater, a condominium home community by Pulte Homes.
The Palms, a future single-family community by Ryland Homes.
Willowcove, which will offer single family homes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocatee,_St._Johns_County,_Florida
Infrastructure
Despite the adverse economic conditions, Nocatee's developers continue to upgrade the surrounding road network reminding us that this is a long term project that they expect will rebound when the economy improves.
Nocatee Parkway is in the process of being extended to US Highway 1.
When complete, Nocatee Parkway will be an expressway that will connect Nocatee with Ponte Vedra Beach and US Highway 1.
To learn more about Nocatee: http://nocatee.com/FAQsUpdates/default.aspx
Article by Ennis Davis
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copperfiend
January 07, 2010, 09:45:22 AMNot an uncommon site this area. I saw a development in Maclenny this weekend that had about 8 houses built and 30 or so empty lots. The houses were built 2-3 years ago.
Dapperdan
January 07, 2010, 10:04:08 AMThis area will rebound quickly, I beleive. i think all in all Nocatee is very good for St Johns County. It seems like the developers actually have long, thought out plans with business parks, recreation, and housing. Yes, it is still suburban to the core, but I think it is nicely done. Another CDD developement to live in if you don't mind paying fees out the ying yang.
copperfiend
January 07, 2010, 10:13:47 AMIt's relatively close to the beach too.
thelakelander
January 07, 2010, 10:21:26 AMIts not my cup of tea but you guys are right. All things considered, its a step above typical First Coast suburbia. It will be interesting to see how Nocatee's future plays out and what impact it has on the surrounding infrastructure network.
finehoe
January 07, 2010, 11:22:43 AMCan't these places hire some innovative architects instead of recycling the same tired old designs?
Overstreet
January 07, 2010, 12:16:18 PMSure, but the cost usually goes up to do that. Then too some neighborhoods keep individual house designs within a certain style range of designs to make the neighborhood look planned and not helter skelter.
I do know of a development, not Nocatee, that hired out of town name brand architects and interior designers from around the country to design each building in the business district. They were innovative. However the project met the same fate when the housing market bottomed. Delayed by the economy.
finehoe
January 07, 2010, 12:47:30 PMThe photo that inspired my comment was the one right before the "Coming Soon Publix" picture. That same building has been built about ten thousand times everywhere in the country.
stjr
January 07, 2010, 01:54:03 PMThe best thing, to me, about Nocatee is the preservation lands and the heavy tree plantings along the roadways.
Unfortunately, this pales in comparison to what the natural landscape offered before Nocatee arrived. The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come. Another part of old Florida forever lost. Sad, very sad.
north miami
January 07, 2010, 02:20:31 PMWe need new land use designations:
P T J P W N U (Preserving The Jurisdictional Protected Wetlands Not Uplands)
FLUM BD (Future Land Use Map Be Damned)
H S U (Human Storage Unit)
L W I (Live With It!) And a Nocatee ad theme-directed at opponents ??
tufsu1
January 07, 2010, 06:34:40 PMso...is this sprawl or not...and why?
stjr
January 07, 2010, 07:17:34 PMAt 13,323 acres about 20 miles from Downtown in the middle of former forests and wetlands, need you ask?
north miami
January 07, 2010, 09:05:27 PMAt 13,323 acres about 20 miles from Downtown in the middle of former forests and wetlands, need you ask?
.......and substantial deviation from County Growth management process-FLUM- then recently adopted Future Land Use Map.Denied by PZB.
The bold move ushered in a decade of radical DRI sweep and other actions.
Under reported, time will reveal details.St.Johns county recent former PZB member David Wiles commands a clear grasp of the provocative narrative.
north miami
January 08, 2010, 11:34:57 AM**** Note To Stephen Dare**** A glimpse of Nocatee narrative:
Check metrojacksonville@metrojacksonville.com incomming email-sent this am.Note also the attachment.
-North Miami
Dog Walker
January 08, 2010, 11:46:05 AMSomehow Nocatee always reminds me of Palm Coast. It was started by ITT back in the 70's and was going to be a whole new city complete with retail and jobs. They had cheap pulp wood land to play with too. Big bust! Here we are thirty years or more later and it is still mostly vacant and has almost nothing but houses. ITT is long gone and, if memory serves, wrote off tens of millions of dollars in losses over Palm Coast.
Overstreet
January 08, 2010, 11:57:24 AMNocatee is different than Palm Coast because it sits between two cities, Jacksonville and St Augustine. It will be a bedroom community of both. Palm Coast was/is in the middle of nowhere I-95.
Dog Walker
January 08, 2010, 12:05:39 PMBut it was presented as its' own independent entity complete with retail and offices and jobs. I figured at the time that they were just blowing smoke to get around the comp. plan. It had struck me as just another suburban, bedroom community too.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 12:16:29 PMIn my mind, the only difference between the two is location, one here, one there. Before Nocatee, that area was also the middle of nowhere.
A "bedroom community" is the essence of urban sprawl to me. The idea that outlying areas being developed are near other outlying areas already developed and therefore are not urban sprawl is exactly the self-serving thinking that fuels urban sprawl. Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.
cline
January 08, 2010, 12:23:22 PMThe problem is, where do you draw the line? Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?
north miami
January 08, 2010, 12:44:09 PMRambling discussions.
Local government was allowed to skirt around 'consistency' with the State Comp Plan/FLUM.
St.Johns county resident and recent former PZB member David Wiles has composed a telling narrative.
Formal objections lodged by opponents beginning in February 2001 are telling.
Note today I sent a note to Stephen Dare-advising of material of interest and illumination sent to his attention.
N.Miami
tufsu1
January 08, 2010, 12:47:41 PMThe problem is, where do you draw the line? Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?
not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 01:12:31 PMThe problem is, where do you draw the line? Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?
not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
Where to draw the line? "Around existing development". In essence, you FREEZE all current development rights at present levels. You can also refuse to build publicly paid infrastructure that enables development to thrive. This includes roads, schools, fire and police, utilities, etc. No one will be able to develop if they don't have access to these amenities. There is no violation of private property rights using these strategies as nothing is being "subtracted". We are just refusing to "add" and that is not an entitlement developers should be able to assert legally.
By example, if we refuse to build the Outer Beltway, all the mega development along its pathway will not likely come to fruition. The property owners would have no legal right to demand the road be built while effectively being denied the opportunity to contribute to urban sprawl.
cline
January 08, 2010, 01:30:47 PMThe problem is there already is access to land and amenities. Are you going to tell landowners that their land that once zoned single-family today will be changed to agriculture or conservation tomorrow. What about the thousands upon thousands of homesites that have already been entitled and approved and are now just waiting to be built (Northern SJC)?
I agree that growth needs to be managed. I'm not sure simply drawing a line is the answer.
finehoe
January 08, 2010, 01:37:58 PMI haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of. I had no idea it had been destroyed. This really breaks my heart.
And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties. Sad, very sad indeed.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 01:39:39 PMPlease reread my comments. I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".
The developer can go on and build the proposed thousands of houses. But, good luck selling them if the Outer Beltway or other road expansions and widenings, schools, fire stations, etc. aren't built. We, the public, are not legally obligated to be accomplices to developers in creating urban sprawl. They bought the land without major infrastructure improvements so no one is "taking" anything from them by not building them. Plain and simple.
north miami
January 08, 2010, 01:40:47 PMnot to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
[/quote]
It is not a matter of taking away vested development rights.............it is about granting additional rights.That's what it is all about: a property owner,in seeking development 'rights',makes petition before the people's government,in hoped that the people will grant the request,or some modified result.
cline
January 08, 2010, 01:42:36 PMSo basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area. I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 01:58:01 PMSo basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area. I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area. I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
I am advocating preventing urban sprawl. Obviously, to do so, certain development and construction can not take place. A moratorium is a "suspension of activity". If the shoe fits, then I wear it proudly. In fact, if the development we are talking about is permanently prevented, such action is stronger than a moratorium which is usually temporary in nature.
St. Johns and Clay counties need to do some real soul searching and decide what they want to be "when they grow up". If they want a quality of life akin to what attracted the current residents in those counties, they will need to reconsider how much more urban-sprawl type development they really want. Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway, I would say many would be happy to live with what you call a "moratorium" or even something stronger.
Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?
cline
January 08, 2010, 02:06:02 PMYou speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway. I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway. Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.
Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would. That's the point of property rights. Those owners would have to be compensated. You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 02:20:31 PMYou speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway. I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway. Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.
Cline, you are not reading and/or comprehending what I am writing. "Substantial" doesn't mean "all" so why are you making this comment? Stop "spinning" my words.
Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would. That's the point of property rights. Those owners would have to be compensated. You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.
Again, Cline, are you not reading what I wrote or trying to put words of your convenience in my mouth? I have just said in multiple posts above that no property rights are being interfered with. What "rights" do you think are being taken away if the land is NOT rezoned? There are NO modifications, just a refusal by the public to SUPPORT with their dollars a land owner/developer creating urban sprawl. No land owner is "entitled" to be compensated for a road or school NOT being built and that was never contracted for.
Jason
January 08, 2010, 02:25:51 PMI say, if the developers want it then let them pay for it. Entirely. No subsidies, no tax breaks, no incentives.
stjr
January 08, 2010, 03:44:50 PMI haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of. I had no idea it had been destroyed. This really breaks my heart.
And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties. Sad, very sad indeed.
Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.
And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:
tufsu1
January 08, 2010, 04:04:39 PMThe most reasonable answer would be to do what Maryland tried....the state deceided that there were certain areas where they wanted growth to occur....state funds were directed to these areas....if you wanted to build outside these areas, fine...but the state wasn't going to help in any way.
Unfortunately, after 10 years, the program has been deemed by some a failure.....and that's in a relatively small, very progressive state with strong environmental and urban planning history....good luck trying to do this in Florida!
samiam
January 08, 2010, 05:15:42 PMThis is from another thread I posted in last month
People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Dog Walker
January 08, 2010, 06:46:36 PMTUFSU1, Didn't London, UK and Portland, OR do something similar; a "green belt" around the city where no city services would be extended? I don't remember the exact details of each city's efforts or their results, but remember reading somewhere that in Portland it pushed development back into the center city and to nodes built around the light rail system there.
Do you know the details and the results?
north miami
January 08, 2010, 07:31:32 PMUnfortunately, after 10 years, the program has been deemed by some a failure.....and that's in a relatively small, very progressive state with strong environmental and urban planning history....good luck trying to do this in Florida!
Faced with certain unwanted development impacts and a desire to "save" lands from development,conservation minded citizens were faced with the land owners and developers challenge: If you tell me what to do with my land-buy it!
And that is just what we did in Florida,through a vibrant state conservation lands program,beginning with the Coanservation and Recreation Lands Act,which yielded Guana State Park and Wildlife Management Area-Northeast Florida's first CARL project.Followed by P2000,Save our River etc.The water management districts play a key role.Such fee simple aquisitions continue.Jennings State Forest came on line after Guana.(This writer was centrally involved with Jennings).Talbot.Cary State Forest expansions,Bayard,Four Rivers to name a few area projects.Note too the Osceola to Ocala Corridor.South Florida is the grand daddy of long established protected lands and later additions.(An effective block to westward sprawl that we do not enjoy.....)
And less than fee conservation easements allowing for environmentally compatible agriculture,timber,cattle.
Farm interests,timber interests and bonafide agricultural interests are forming land trusts and spurring easements.
Just say "Know" to growth!
north miami
January 08, 2010, 07:36:58 PM**** Note To Stephen Dare**** A glimpse of Nocatee narrative:
Check metrojacksonville@metrojacksonville.com incomming email-sent this am.Note also the attachment.
-North Miami
Reminder for Stephen Dare-note above
-N.Miami
north miami
January 08, 2010, 11:05:46 PMI haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of. I had no idea it had been destroyed. This really breaks my heart.
And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties. Sad, very sad indeed.
Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.
And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:
The PARC GROUP
tufsu1
January 08, 2010, 11:33:27 PMDo you know the details and the results?
Both cities have done this...in London (and other European cities) its far easier as private land ownership is not as prevalant.
In Portland, development on the edges has been curbed (although there is still plenty of sprawl)....this is done through a regional planning agency that has land use powers...the downside is the average home price has increased far more rapidly than in the rest of the nation....there was also a voter revolt a few years ago which basically gutted the system...than in 2008, the voters realized the error of their way and put most of the system bck in place.
Most recently some of the local governments have threatened to pull out f the regional planning pact, as they are unhappy with their future development allocations....I posted an article about this a few days ago in another thread.
north miami
January 09, 2010, 12:04:19 AM...the downside is the average home price has increased far more rapidly than in the rest of the nation....there was also a voter revolt a few years ago which basically gutted the system...
[/quote]
It is so worn out as a viable feature of growth promotion that we forget that "increasing property value" was a given assumptions behind selling "growth" proposals.
Home price increase,better than even some average,is good-yes?? In the case you quote above,maybe even get what you pay for!
Voter 'revolt' is no reflection on the viability (use that word a lot in these posts) of growth restriction.Possibly a good reason to not move there,for some of us in the know.
Might as well cease these posts-NE Fl fate has been sealed.There are further decisions (who knows of State DCA role and efforts such as the local office of the FWF?? And Leggo....) but on the whole-done deal.
Florida's First Coast-Where Miami Begins!!
mtraininjax
January 09, 2010, 05:52:41 AMReally? Could we say the same thing about Cecil Field or the planned expansions out Pritchard Road? How about all the apartments and condos falling into foreclosure that local banks are absorbing? Jacksonville lost 5,000 construction jobs last year, and we are all feeling it all over town.
tufsu1
January 09, 2010, 03:16:30 PMnorhmiami....increasing home values are good when you own and don't want to move...not so good if you're looking to buy!
finehoe
January 09, 2010, 03:31:09 PMExcept when your property tax bill rolls around.
tufsu1
January 09, 2010, 03:37:52 PMgood point!
BOfficer
January 12, 2010, 12:23:34 PMI hope Nocatee can become what everyone expects
FactCheck
January 15, 2010, 04:35:59 PMI haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of. I had no idea it had been destroyed. This really breaks my heart.
And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties. Sad, very sad indeed.
Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.
And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:
The PARC GROUP
I also am saddened by the loss of the Palm Trees. Who cares if the residents of Ponte Vedra needed a new hurricane evacuation route? The trees are much more important!
CS Foltz
January 15, 2010, 04:45:24 PMFatCheck I agree! That little draw bridge was cute..........not to mention your right about the missing Palms! There used to be quite a few little draw bridges on both the east coast and the west coast in Florida. You go past Panama City, Ft Walton and beyond about a half a dozen from what I remember before you went past Shark Island to head into St Marks/Tallahassee.
stjr
January 15, 2010, 06:55:57 PMHmmm... did residents of Ponte Vedra move there for the palm trees or to set a world record in the Olympic "Hurricane Evacuation" event? Maybe if someone cared, they could have had both but that might have taken a few minutes of thinking which our knee jerk road builders don't seem to have the ability to do.
If Hurricane Evacuation is the only consideration, let's build a road and bridge for every household. That will move 'em out even faster. Of course, if Ponte Vedrans are that concerned, maybe they shouldn't live along a Florida coastline to begin with.
reednavy
January 15, 2010, 07:32:14 PMMeh, GW will rise the sea and kill the trees then end of that.
Seriously though, the amount of traffic load that the original bridge was built for and needed to be replaced. Also, think if you were on either side of the bridge and had an emergency, but the EMS couldn't get there in time because the bridge was open.
While I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.
stjr
January 15, 2010, 08:28:28 PMWhile I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.
Reed, see the Bridge of Lions replacement plan in St. Augustine. Of course, it only came about because people who cared made FDOT admit to being able to do what they had insisted wasn't feasible. It does show what can happen when the pedal meets the metal.
FDOT's standard utilitarian bridge designs are equivalent to the McDonalds of bridge building. See I-95/Fuller Warren Bridge in Jax for the same design as Palm Valley on a larger scale. Real creativity at work here.
reednavy
January 15, 2010, 09:06:38 PMWell, St Augustine was also a bit different in that there was no room for what was neede, a four lane bridge w/o a draw.
The Palm Valey bridge serves it's purpose, but could've had better design elements. Apparently nobody out there cared, and just wanted it done quick.
buckethead
January 15, 2010, 10:12:04 PMNow you guys are in my neck of the woods. The draw bridge was charming, but horribly over-utilized as well as treacherously narrow. Remember; Nease High School was fed by it, and now Ponte Vedra High School is as well. I would have prefferred a more northerly corridor than Nocatee Pkwy provided, but the Racetrack Road extension will offer that, once completed. Being done BTW, with private dollars.
As for the St Augustine Bridge of Lions:
Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.
tufsu1
January 15, 2010, 10:49:22 PMBuilding a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.
good point...it is important to note that the reconstructed Bridge of Lions will cost far more than a simple new bridge would have...now I'm all for that if its what the people want...just remember that every time the waste of tax dollars argument comes up!
stjr
January 15, 2010, 11:34:16 PMTufsu and Buckethead, unlike Jax, some communities consider architecture and design a valuable part of their economy and quality of life. St. Augustine's architecture, not just its history, is an essential part of the charm and ambiance that draws all those tourists who drive a major part of its economy and attracts residents to the area.
Don't tell me that people don't move to Ponte Vedra, in part, for the Old Florida vegetation unique to the area. Destroying one of the best examples of that IS an impairment of what Ponte Vedra is and thus a diminishment of its value. How iconic and unique it would have been had a new Palm Valley bridge done in an Old Florida or Spanish style design sitting amidst a preserved and one-of-a-kind palm forest serving as the major "gateway" to the Ponte Vedra Community been built. It could have become a signature as special as the 17th hole at TPC.
The idea that good design is not a value worthy of investment is shortsighted. Just ask Apple how to make $$$ on design.
buckethead
January 16, 2010, 01:02:49 AMReal estate values in Ponte Vedra are relativley strong, fwiw.
stjr
January 16, 2010, 01:12:50 AMMaybe, but, generally, far less than comparable "national market" properties in the I-4 and South Florida market, California, etc. My real point isn't what current values are but what they could be. Don't forget the boost to businesses from increased tourism, etc. A unique identity that is instantly recognizable would be a major economic booster. Just ask the PGA what #17 does for them.
Dog Walker
January 16, 2010, 09:59:46 AMFDOT just can't win with you guys. Preserve the appearance and height of the Bridge of Lions; it's a waste of taxpayers money. Replace an undistinguished bridge that was a danger to motorists and boaters with a modern, efficient bridge; they have missed a chance to put distinguishing architectural features on it.
If they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.
If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.
IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
Springfield Girl
January 16, 2010, 02:22:46 PMI was suprised when I looked at the pictures. The landscaping, roads and ammenities looked nice but the houses were just standard, run of the mill, suburban stock. I thought the homes were supposed to be more upscale with more architectural interest.
stjr
January 16, 2010, 03:36:38 PMDog, as a public agency, it is a given that FDOT, JTA, etc. will be criticized from all sides. That comes with the job (just like the criticism leveled at players and coaches for the Jags) and should not, in and of itself, intimidate them.
What is more important, is listening to the substantive comments of all these points of view and weaving them into a product that efficiently serves its community with the greatest VALUE. As mentioned on another MJ thread, I consider VALUE to be more than the obvious benefits (e.g. accommodating a mode of transit) of a road or bridge project but also other important intangibles such as impact on the environment, aesthetics, safety, health, sustainability, social fabric, people's time, etc.
Where FDOT, JTA, and others of their ilk open themselves up to wide ranging criticism from ALL sides is in their failure to fully consider their projects beyond the scope of just an engineer's perspective. The voices of the community at large are effectively marginalized (public hearings be damned) and the driving forces of development at all costs are front and center. In the end, most criticism is a byproduct of this poor process for delivering such projects. When the process is changed for the better, the criticism will likely ratchet down (of course, never to zero) tremendously.
For a parallel example, see the heated debate over the Springfield Car Wash. How much better does the project become and how much of the criticism dissipates when community-wide input and communications are played out on a level playing field for all the interested parties? The absence of such mechanisms with JTA and FDOT is a big problem for our community.
buckethead
January 16, 2010, 03:38:48 PMIf they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.
If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.
IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
Dog Walker
January 17, 2010, 01:25:51 PMYou are absolutely correct here! It took many years of people and organization pounding on FDOT to get them out of the "engineers" perspective on the Bridge of Lions and to come up with the present solution. Too often they come in with a preferred solution and then spend all of their time in the public meetings defending it and getting it stuck in their thinking.
Engineer joke: How can you tell an outgoing engineer from the average engineer? When talking to you, he stares at your shoes instead of his own. (Told to me by a friend who employs a bunch of them.)
FactCheck
January 19, 2010, 10:54:56 AMFYI
The FDOT did not design or build the Palm Valley Bridge, it was the US Army Corps.
http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Divisions/RealEstate/BasculeHwyBridge.htm
St. Johns County completed a study to replace the two lane Palm Valley Road with a four lane roadway,but didnt have the funds to construct.
The bridge and the road would have been constructed with or without the adjacent development...once the County generated tax proceeds or received grants to pay for its construction.
stjr
January 19, 2010, 11:29:18 PMFactcheck, interesting. I never realized the Army Corps was into bridge building like this.
My comments about engineers still hold true. Consider the Army Corps of Engineers under the category of "...and others of their ilk."