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About the High Speed Rail project
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Some industry experts expect the biggest recipients to be states that have already invested heavily in rail and whose projects are closest to the construction phase.
Those factors could point to Florida as a likely recipient. The state is seeking about $2.6 billion in stimulus funds to build a rail line connecting Tampa and Orlando, a project that business leaders view as a key to luring new companies and jump-starting the Sunshine State's economy. Peak speeds could exceed 150 mph.
Florida has purchased land rights for the project and recently cleared a federal environmental review, clearing major hurdles that many other states haven't, said Nazih Haddad, who manages the state's passenger-rail development programs. The state has agreed to chip in $570 million for the project, on top of other expenses already incurred. Project costs could total $3.5 billion.
With the stimulus funds, construction could begin in mid-2011 and be completed in 2015, creating an estimated 23,000 jobs, Mr. Haddad said.
The state's application to the Federal Railroad Administration includes a request for funds to study a high-speed rail line connecting Orlando and Miami.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025460095083750.html
I-4 Corridor - Center Poles Typical Section
High Speed Rail - Phase 1 Route - Tampa
Downtown Tampa will be the western terminus for Florida's first high speed rail system. This station will be the first phases only site located in an urban walkable setting.
I-4 Corridor - Side Poles Typical Section
High Speed Rail - Phase 1 - Lakeland
The exact location of the Lakeland station is still in debate. Plant City, Lakeland's immediate neighbor to the west, is lobbying to have the Lakeland station located at the interchange of I-4 and the Polk County Parkway (SR 570).
The other proposed Lakeland site is located as close to Downtown Lakeland as I-4 gets, which is about two to three miles to the north at Kathleen Road. Recently, a third Lakeland site (not indicated on aerial concept plans) has emerged a few miles east of the city were a new college campus is planned.
Typical Bridge Section
High Speed Rail - Phase 1 - Orlando
The Orlando area will have as many as three stops. Disney, International Drive and Orlando International Airport. The rail system's O&M yard will also be constructed in Orlando.
Quote
As proposed, the train would start at Orlando International Airport and run along the BeachLine Expressway and Interstate 4 until stopping in east Tampa, a little past Ybor City. It would have stops at the Orange County Convention Center, Walt Disney World (near Celebration) and Lakeland.
No train type has been chosen, though the state prefers a train powered by electricity, most likely from overhead lines, records indicate.
It could reach a top speed of 160 mph, the state estimates, because the route is essentially flat and straight once it moves along I-4. A non-stop run from OIA to Tampa would take about 44 minutes, as opposed to as much as an hour and a half by car.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-high-speed-announcement-20100127,0,4321977.story
While the ultimate success of this system is still up for debate among transit advocates, Metro Jacksonville hopes that the political push for rail-based mass transit will eventually reach Jacksonville, sooner rather than later.
For more information: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org
Article by Ennis Davis
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copperfiend
January 28, 2010, 07:55:45 AMThe Tourist Train
Doctor_K
January 28, 2010, 07:57:49 AMTHat goes nowhere and connects nothing. Hey! It's the Central Florida Skyway!
jbovinette
January 28, 2010, 08:08:45 AMYea pretty much. Also did you see "No train type has been chosen, though the state prefers a train powered by electricity, most likely from overhead lines, records indicate."
OVERHEAD LINES?
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 08:15:32 AMbecause downtown Tampa is nowhere/nothing?
btw, another article
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jan/28/florida-awaits-obamas-high-speed-rail-announcement/news-politics/
Dog Walker
January 28, 2010, 08:27:52 AMOverhead electric lines are used by almost all high speed trains everywhere in the world. Electric power has proven to be the cleanest and most efficient method for powering passenger rail at almost every level of service from TGV to street cars.
Ock could probably give us the technical reasons why and has some excellent pictures of how unobtrusive the overhead lines are.
billy
January 28, 2010, 08:35:58 AMGeorgia is set to receive a whopping $750,000.
(according to the AJC)
JeffreyS
January 28, 2010, 08:38:45 AMSo is the Miami to Jax Amtrak upgrade not going to happen?
JeffreyS
January 28, 2010, 08:39:47 AMI do hope that HSR suceeds.
aaapolito
January 28, 2010, 08:42:23 AMSince there is no exiting track along the I-4 median, was it a possibility to implement magnetic levitation ("maglev") technology? I know that companies in Japan have implemented this technology.
I suppose that one of the major problems with the maglev system is that there is no possibility of inter-working the system with current rail infrastructure. As a result, there would be a greater chance for "central florida skyway."
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 08:50:56 AMHere are a few allocations:
California: $2.25 billion for HSR, $99 million for smaller conventional rail projects
Chicago-St. Louis corridor: $1.1 billion
Chicago-Detroit corridor: $244 million
Milwaukee-Madison corridor: $810 million
Cleveland-Cincinnati corridor: $400 million
Tampa-Orlando corridor: $1.25 billion
Raleigh-Charlotte corridor: $520 million
Washington State: $590 million
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/D1A66CA7501E947E862576B9000CFB3F?OpenDocument
copperfiend
January 28, 2010, 08:51:07 AMI do as well but as a Jacksonville resident, it is a little disappointing.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 08:58:34 AMIf Jax wants to be a player at these games, it has to show up. The places awarded have been lobbying for these improvements for years. Jax was no where to be found. This is why its so important to push now. If we never make a push, we'll never get to the point of being awarded anything significant.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 09:03:01 AMI would not say that right now. No state received more than half of their original request. Also, don't forget there is funding available every year for HSR, plus additional funding from other transportation sources.
copperfiend
January 28, 2010, 09:29:07 AMCompletely agree.
buckethead
January 28, 2010, 09:32:09 AMI hope the doubters here are proven wrong (myself included). A failure here would mean 40 years of continued wandering in the mass transit desert.
fsujax
January 28, 2010, 09:33:09 AMYeah. our elected delegation that represents our area in Tallahassee, should be making a loud noise about Jacksonville, but so far it's silence.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 09:50:43 AMagreed Lake...while Amtrak on FEC is not being funded through the $8 billion program, there are many other transportation revenue sources available....and if HSR is paid for entirely by the Feds, then the state would have more of its own money to put toward the Amtrak deal.
I have 2 concerns about the HSR funding:
1. How much money will come fromm the Feds over the next 3 years....assuming FL gets a total of $2 billion, can they build the whole thing?
2. In the past FDOT has not been able to start construction until all money has been secured...how will they get around this?
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 09:53:10 AMThis is the maddening thing.
When the HSR conference happened in Orlando, the only representatives for Jacksonville were me and Ocklawaha representing metrojacksonville. We managed to make the conference hear a point of view from North Florida, and we even managed to help influence national policy as a result, but there wasnt any way to bring Jax to the table.
Instead, every cotton picking person from our city was involved in the ridiculous lego exercise, and apparently the entire JTA staff was assigned to escort one of the "Reality Check" speakers around town.
Well here's the reality check:
Tampa Orlando got 1.25 Billion Dollars in federal funding.
Jacksonville got nothing.
And this is even with our team going to multiple meetings with the JTA, offering services, exhorting them to get something prepared, apply for stimulus money, etc etc.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 09:57:14 AMto be fair Stephen the Tampa-Orlando line has been in planning stages for over 25 years....and the Federal environmental documents (studies paid for by FDOT) for the route were approved in 2004.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 09:59:08 AMThe money provided by the Obama Biden Administration however, was not a 25 year process.
If Jacksonville were engaged in that level of conversation, then it would have had a similar chance. But it
wasnt, isnt and so it doesnt.Lunican
January 28, 2010, 10:00:50 AMWhat has JTA and Jacksonville been planning for over the past 25 years?
This is a serious question. In 1985, what was being discussed and planned for?
Shwaz
January 28, 2010, 10:05:39 AMI'm a little unsure that Orlando to Tampa was the best place to start with HSR in Florida... but I guess any start is a good start.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:05:57 AMThat is a fair question....but to assume that one could walk in now (if they were paying attention) and get money is disingenuous...the same is true with the new stimulus funding for streetcars....you need to already have plans and environmental permits in hand.
What Jax. needs to do NOW is take the next step and get some environmental studies going for both commuter rail and streetcars.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:08:40 AMTo assume that any one is suggesting taking a stroll, asking for money for undetermined projects is also disingenuous.
But to think that simply not showing up at all, not planning, not engaging in any way is somehow excusable is only empowering and enabling more of the same.
But hey, at least they got to play with those ridiculous legos.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 10:18:32 AMWhile I do believe this region could be better served by commuter rail or amtrak, connecting these two by rail does make a ton of sense. Its pretty populated, I-4 is a congestion nightmare and the cities are pretty close together. So a short starter segment between two viable endpoints makes sense (this is what we should be doing with our local rail plans). Going from Orlando to Miami will cost billions more and take years to complete and Jax was no where to be found in these serious discussions the past decade or two. At least the short Tampa/Orlando segment allows the state to get their feet wet.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:18:53 AMLegos are fun!
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 10:20:40 AMYeah, its been a pretty good two months for thelakelander's Lakeland. They get HSR, CSX's new rail hub as a part of the Sunrail deal and the real Legoland.
cline
January 28, 2010, 10:22:30 AMJacksonville's chance really wouldn't have been similar. That route has been in the planning stages for a while therefore it was the obvious choice.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:23:21 AMReally Cline?
Having been there in person, thats not what Ocklawaha and I saw in action.
What was it about the conference that made you think otherwise?
cline
January 28, 2010, 10:27:35 AMSo bascially, the reason that Jacksonville doesn't have HSR is because no public officials attended a single conference in Orlando? Right.
Since you state you are able to "influence national policy" I'm a little surprised that you weren't able to bring some of the funds home to Jax. What happened?
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:35:52 AMWe came back to Jacksonville. JTA got pissed that we went.
We held multiple meetings with JTA, discussed strategy, volunteered time and services, had a lot of talk and then.
Nothing.
The only response from JTA at a time when the rest of the country was mobilizing for both stimulus and amtrak funding was the work of James Boyle and Scott Clem in initiating commuter rail studies.
But you still didnt tell me what you observed at the rail conference, Cline?
My ex was going through the same rush in Muncie Indiana. She and the rest of the Downtown Community had the same time frames as Jax.
They managed to get funding for transit, so Im afraid I cant take any of this popcorn very seriously.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 10:37:07 AMJax has no HSR funding because it was never a real part of the planning process. Those guys in Central and South Florida have been planning this stuff for years and that's why its considered "shovel ready."
If anyone is interested, here is a link to some of those documents.
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/PD_E_Documents.html
Until Jax can officially commit to something and produce the necessary documents needed to secure federal funding, federal funding for any type of local or intercity rail, involving Jax, will not be on the radar.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:37:58 AMcline
January 28, 2010, 10:39:44 AMThat was the point I was trying to make. We didn't get funds because we haven't been planning an HSR route like others have. It wasn't because we didn't show up at one meeting.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:41:39 AMagain I will point out that the funding for al of the previous studies was provided by FDOT at a statewide level....and to be honest, northeast Florida never had the population (i.e., legislators) to compete with central and south Florida.
Jax. is now in a very good position with the Secretary of FDOT and the District Secretary being from here.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:42:49 AMNot showing up at the meeting that was pretty much required to know how to apply for the money was a deal killer for Jacksonville Cline.
The meeting specifically laid out the process which were not available to the public that the agencies needed inorder to complete applications.
So yes. The one meeting was pretty important.
This was a common vein in our conversations with JTA after the meeting itself.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:43:27 AMThis is complete bollocks in terms of the federal funding.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 10:43:56 AMCline, you are correct. Not showing up at meetings over an entire decade has Jax where it is today. Not showing up a one meeting wasn't going to change anything in regards to the $8 billion for HSR.
Unless we plan to pay for our future with only local dollars that don't exist, its time we start showing up at all of them.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:45:32 AMso what happened to Texas.....they had a great HSR plan and only got $4 million?
cline
January 28, 2010, 10:47:49 AMAgreed.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:48:34 AMI think you would have to ask the Texans, TUFSU.
My guess is that they hired our locals to do the application for them.
BridgeTroll
January 28, 2010, 10:50:42 AMThe Bush family calls it home?
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:51:44 AMthe applications were submitted by FDOT...and the decision that HSR is Tampa-Orlando-Miami was made in 1998, not at the Orlando meeting.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 10:54:46 AMTUFSU, this is also complete bollocks in the context of the meeting which discussed a new funding program announced a couple of months earlier.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 11:09:50 AMWhich funding program is that....the one for construction of shovel-ready projects....or the miniscule $6 million for planning studies?
Remember that the Amtrak on FEC was also part of Florida's application...so Jax. was included....unfortunately it doesn't look like that one will be funded yet...even with the support of Brown, Mica, and Nelson!
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 11:12:24 AMThe 8 billion set aside by the Congress for transportation is a separate issue from the Stimulus package as you well know.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 11:19:11 AMFrom Mica's Office.
Mica, Shuster Response to High-Speed Rail Announcement
Washington, DC – U.S. Rep. John L. Mica (R-FL), the Republican Leader of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and U.S. Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA), the Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials Subcommittee Ranking Member, offered both a positive response and a sharp criticism of the Administration’s announcement relating to building high-speed rail systems in the United States.
“I am pleased that President Obama has helped to launch a system for improved passenger rail service for our nation,” Mica said.
“As the author of high-speed rail legislation included in the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act signed into law by President Bush on October 16, 2008, I welcome new rail infrastructure projects that can relieve our congested highways and airspace, limit pollution, and more efficiently use our energy resources.”
However, Mica cautioned that there is only a limited chance that taxpayers will see any semblance of true high-speed rail operating with the projects chosen.
“Even the first leg of the Orlando-Tampa route will be a slow-speed, short-stop line,” Mica said. “The Midwest routes chosen will only achieve a top speed of 110 miles per hour and were selected more for political reasons than for high-speed service.”
He noted that high-speed rail systems around the world now operate at an average of 150 mph or more.
“I am disappointed in the failure of the Obama Administration to follow the guidelines of the 2008 law, which highlighted private sector investment and participation,” Mica continued. “The projects chosen by the Administration were not transparently selected and lack adequate private sector financial commitment.
“Just spending huge amounts of federal taxpayer funds will not insure success of these megaprojects. The last thing the American people need is another bailout program with low-speed trains to nowhere,” said Mica.
“As a coauthor of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act, I agree with Ranking Member Mica that the Obama Administration missed a golden opportunity to involve the private sector in the development of a high speed rail system,” said Rep. Shuster. “I included a provision for private sector competition in the 2008 law, which Amtrak has completely ignored.”
“Each ticket sold by Amtrak is subsidized almost $55 by the American taxpayer. Unfortunately we will not have the opportunity to reduce taxpayer exposure to the costs of development for these lines,” Shuster said.
“I am also concerned that scarce federal dollars will be spread too thin among too many rail projects, leading to incremental progress that could slow our already delayed entrance into high-speed rail. This is another reason the government must encourage private investment,” Shuster added.
Mica continued, “Finally, most disappointing is the unfortunate hijacking of the Northeast Corridor, which for the most part was kept out of the selection process and will remain the slow-speed stepchild of passenger rail transportation. Keeping the Northeast Corridor as a private train set for a few select politicians will insure continued congestion in our nation’s most densely populated region.
“With 75 percent of our country’s aviation chronic delays beginning in the New York airspace, it is a shame that the people in that crowded corridor have been shortchanged in this high-speed rail system selection process.
“The Acela runs at an average speed of 83 mph between Washington, DC and New York City, and Amtrak has limited plans for improvement that will take 20 years to reach even moderate speeds in our most important transportation corridor.
“It’s regrettable that continuing the Soviet-style Amtrak operation has trumped true high-speed service for a corridor so vital to our national transportation interests,” Mica concluded.
The federal government is providing $8 billion in stimulus funds for the project awards announced. In addition, $2.5 billion was appropriated in 2010 for high-speed rail projects.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 11:24:01 AMactually I didn't know that...I'm pretty sure it is part of ARRA, otherwise known as the stimulus.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2818383020100128?type=marketsNews
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 11:37:59 AMhttp://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/article1068768.ece
Ocklawaha
January 28, 2010, 12:05:31 PMI think DoctorK pretty well summed it up. The station in the middle of NOTHING is no closer to downtown then the classic Tampa Union Station, and has ZERO supporting infrastructure. A good solution for Tampax is to slide those tracks over and get into Tampa Union Station, right alongside Amtrak, Greyhound, Light Rail and HART bus.
Abandoning the Orlando Airport for a connection with the CSX would open up the entire metro to High Speed Rail. I'd be MUCH more likely to ride a HSR train from Lake Mary to International Parkway at 30 mph, then I would spending 50 minutes fighting that damn traffic to a damned inconvenient airport, paying for parking, paying for ticket, and then riding another 50 minutes to my favorite freeway interchange in Tampax. Considering a 20 minute delay at Orlando International Airport between parking and boarding a train, my net trip becomes 120 minutes! 120 minutes or TWO HOURS for a trip that would take 1 hour and 28 minutes if I stayed in my car!!
I sure as hell wouldn't build a high speed "hub" with right angle 90 and 100 degree turns in the distant edge of Orlando. Anytime you include right angles in your track plan, someone will quickly figure out that they can cut across the corners and save time. Right angles as-in St. Petersburg - Miami VIA Tampa! If Amtrak rerouted one conventional train at 79 mph, Tampa - Miami, VIA: Bartow - Sebring - Okeechobee - West Palm - Miami would beat or match the Rocket Powered Rat Train.
Maybe so, but a single power wire down the center of a railroad track is a whole lot LESS tacky then driving in a cloud of smog that resembles twilight at high noon. If you want it environmentally friendly = ELECTRIC, If you want it fuel efficient = ELECTRIC, If you want it quiet = ELECTRIC, If you want fast acceleration and deceleration = ELECTRIC, If you want superior braking = ELECTRIC, If you want multiple power sources = ELECTRIC... Well it DOES have a few advantages.
This plan is headed where the SKYWAY has gone before... BONK! When Tallahassee wakes up (assuming they still have brain wave activity) someone is going to realize that SOUTHEAST HIGH SPEED RAIL (2 Routes), GULF COAST HIGH SPEED RAIL, and phase 104 of the FLORIDA HIGH SPEED RAIL, all meet in Jacksonville! That is why it is called a "HUB". It's something created by demand and geography, not by mice.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 12:14:01 PMNow that you mention this, for "connectivity's" sake, it would make better sense to shift the HSR airport station to where the line crosses Sunrail. Then provide a peoplemover from that intermodal center to directly connect with the airport's terminal (ex. Miami's MIC or Phoenix's Skyharbor Airport peoplemover).
Ocklawaha
January 28, 2010, 12:24:30 PMThat's easy TU, DUVAL moved to Texas after he left Northeast Florida, look it up, it's history.
I'm sure all 200+ people in those rooms knew when the project started... and frankly it wasn't 1998. Maybe that date contained a decision, but decisions had been made as far back as 1972 that I'm aware of.
That meeting was critical to ANY city wanting onboard High Speed Rail, AMTRAK (who co-hosted with the FRA), Commuter Rail or Light Rail. It was a clear case of "Mr A, meet Mr. B" and in the process this is "X,Y, and Z."
It was as much about Amtrak as about the HSR, even though they didn't bill it as such, sorry YOU missed it because Stephen is right, we DID have a voice in setting national policy. Both of us made public comments on mike in front of the whole crowd, later we each were assigned a work table, I believe Stephen sat with the CEO's of Amtrak, DOT and some commuter agency's. Due to name recognition (?) I was put in charge of a table that included Doc Dockery and most of the Central Florida Municipal and HSR team. BTW, the railroaders at both tables agreed with US and not with the High Speed Rail, as planned.
OCKLAWAHA
Captain Zissou
January 28, 2010, 01:04:35 PMDUMB
Ocklawaha
January 28, 2010, 01:17:57 PMWTF?
OCKLAWAHA
hightowerlover
January 28, 2010, 01:22:15 PMCall me crazy but if you look at the map on here... Jacksonville is the southernmost terminus of a much more significant Eastern Seaboard and Gulf Coast chunk of rail. Connecting Jax to NYC, ATL, DC, Houston, Philadelphia, Boston, Raliegh, Birmingham and New Orleans.
Are you guys really depressed to not be a hub on the South Florida old folks/tourist trolley track??
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703808904575025460095083750.html#project%3DHIGHSPEEDRAIL0904%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 01:27:11 PMOck was a bit of a celebrity at the HSR conference, actually.
It is, after all, what he does. I guess when you write the actual history books of Rail, it tends to lend you a bit of credibility in these things.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 01:41:48 PMOck...this option was studied...due to the curvatures and the massive ROW that would be needd, it was determined not to be feasible.
Plus FDOT was able to acquire the former jail site (off I-275) for almost nothing.
FYI, local rail and bus service would all come into the new station as well...and its adjacent to HART's central bus station.
Check out the Tampa Bay Intermodal Centers study
http://www.pbsj.com/Our_Businesses/Consulting/Services/architecture/transit/Pages/Tampa_Bay_Intermodal_Centers.aspx
JeffreyS
January 28, 2010, 02:07:03 PMAnd next time we will be the guys who did not show up last time. So we will know we can't stroll in there and get the money so we won't go. And the next time we will be the guys who did not show up last time. So we will know we can't stroll in there and get the money so we won't go. And the next time....
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 02:19:21 PMyou got that right jeff.
Its always the same. Jacksonville always has someone to tell you logically why nothing ever happened here.
The other cities always seem to have the guys that can only explain why things did happen there.
stephendare
January 28, 2010, 02:32:07 PMAnd why are you trying to carry JTA water anyways, tufsu?
Its ridiculous, and not having been there you do not know what you are talking about.
The federal officials were trying to get a feel from the room, in order to create relationships and projects.
Had Jacksonville been there, in high gear, Jax would have stood a chance.
Its disingenuous to pretend that the Tampa HSR would have been an 'either or' in the first place.
Without the linkup to Jax, there is no such thing as a national HSR in Florida. period.
So why pretend otherwise?
FDOT may have backed the tampa line earlier, but there was nothing to keep jacksonville out of the game except its glaring absence.
Maybe instead of 1.25 billion, the state might have gotten an additional billion from the feds with a jacksonville project on line.
In fact, the HSR commission had to be reformed in order to attend the meeting in the first place. It had completely died and hadnt had a meeting in over a year.
The truth, plain and simple is that our locals f'd it up.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 02:53:32 PMI suggest you listen to what Vice President Biden said a few minutes ago...basically it was that $ was given to states with projects that made sense and were ready to go!
If you want to blame our leaders from 10-20 years ago for not starting then, fine...but to blame our current leaders for not getting this money is downright wrong.
Also, take a look at the map in the picture on the front page....nobody is talking about building a national system overnight....we are building HSR in pieces (just like Europe and Asia did)....over time Jax. and the rest of the country will get connected.
vicupstate
January 28, 2010, 02:55:46 PMTUFsu1, you have a point, but it is never to soon to START being a part of the planning and discussions. If Jax is 20 years behind, is it smart to CONTINUE waiting? Are we shooting for 25 years behind?
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 02:59:07 PMI agree with you 100% vic....we need to be (and are) planning for Florida HSR Phase 3....connecting Orlando (and/or Miami) with Jax....as well as connecting to othersoutheast cities
All I'm saying is attending (or not) that meeting in Orlando had no bearing on us getting money this time.
JeffreyS
January 28, 2010, 03:02:30 PMthelakelander
January 28, 2010, 03:03:09 PMHere is the loooooooong range plan:
http://fastlane.dot.gov/
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 03:05:12 PMHow the $8 billion got split up:
BridgeTroll
January 28, 2010, 03:20:43 PMChicago will be the king of HSR!
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 03:27:11 PMwonder why?
BridgeTroll
January 28, 2010, 03:33:24 PMCentralized location? Close to Milwaukee? Home of both the Cubs AND Bears??
mtraininjax
January 28, 2010, 03:53:30 PMThere is no need for HSR in Jax right now, or at least in ORL to TPA there is more demand and more need. Also, when Disney World was built, there was nothing around it, and it grew from there. Same will happen with these stations.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 03:56:11 PMIn all seriousness, look at the transportation routes (including rail) in this country....they converge on Chicago!
heights unknown
January 28, 2010, 07:50:38 PMI still wonder if anyone (namely Americans/Floridians) are really going to leave their cars (which we love like a fair, rouged cheeked virgin) and ride these trains? We are not at all like the Europeans, Asians, and others that have these high speed trains. I too agree that these trains maybe like our Skyway...the trains to nowhere. I hope they are successful.
Sportmotor
January 28, 2010, 08:19:10 PMI would if it took me places I needed to go for work or personal for less then driving with-in a decent time frame.
I have to go to Atlanta alot and 6-8 hours and near $80-100 for the trip in gas(and food) is not fun.
Plus I have to go to Orlando alot as well, both in the heart of and outskirts.
Get me on a train for less then that in time and money and I'll ditch my vechical in a heart beat.
Would also be nice to ride the train to and from work everyday.
thelakelander
January 28, 2010, 08:39:24 PMWill the same happen with our skyway?
simms3
January 28, 2010, 08:48:26 PMHaven't commented in a looonggg time, but have read these boards since they were on a whole different site. With all of the news we can all be happy about coming to light just in the last two weeks, I see no reason not to be upset about this arrangement. I predict that this will be an immense failure. If Accera is a failure, this will be a worse failure. I would be embarassed to be a part of this. Let's separate ourselves just a tad from Orlando and Tampa, and keep it East Coast. We have a better economy right now than they do, and actually our home and condo median sales prices are higher. We are the biggest port in the state, and we have a diverse economy, not to mention the military presence. Let's focus on connecting to the rest of the nation. If we absolutely have to go to rail in the next decade, which will be a huge monetary loser, let's connect with Miami, and up the Eastern Seaboard.
One thing that set Atlanta apart from the rest of the south was their push for the airport. We can only see what history brought them afterward. Rail is not the future, at least in its current form and our current density/culture/extra cash (we are richer than Europe and the rest of the world). Let's simply keep rail local (commuter) and focus on our airport. Let's get back to being FL's financial center and get more airline routes.
Bottom line, this proposal does nothing for me. I know JTA is "dumb," but maybe they knew this would be a big flop, too.
BTW Sportmotor^^^I live in Atlanta, and I am going to DC in a couple of weeks, so to cut expenses (I am a student) I looked at Amtrak. It was $99 for a one way ticket. I bought round trip Airtran tickets (and because I live across from a MARTA station that takes me to the Airport and fly to Reagan and take Metro frm there, I don't need a car...I would if I was to take Ammtrak as the Atl station is out of the way) for $189. Air was cheaper! And it's not subsidized by us either! And it is logically more expensive to operate that air route for Airtran than Amtrak to operate the fixed track/train. Government can't do anything right and believe me when I say that this new HSR will be a complete flop!
Lunican
January 28, 2010, 09:06:22 PMSimms, air travel is subsidized a lot more than rail travel. So that argument isn't a good one.
urbanlibertarian
January 28, 2010, 09:25:15 PMNot per passenger mile.
mtraininjax
January 28, 2010, 09:27:26 PMSimms - You will be very popular when you say air travel is not subsidized, so duck when the arrows start flying.
Miami (port everglades) and Tampa have larger and more gross weight ports, Miami should give up and take all cruise ships, and make it easier for us to service containers. Will happen IMO, but will take a few years.
Jax is 23rd in nation in foreclosures, not a pretty sight, no idea what Tampa or Miami or Orlando are at , but we are nowhere near clear of the real estate mess, just take a drive down beach blvd and notice all the for sale/foreclosures on commercial properties, its a joke.
Forget HSR in Jax, no need, no leadership and really no fight in the game. Like you said, let's focus on the port, our expansion of the US Armed forces (carrier) and grow Jax.
tufsu1
January 28, 2010, 10:46:25 PMsomething weird happened to this map...almost everything in the southeast shifted west slightly...so Charlotte looks like its in Greenville and Atlanta looks like its in Birmingham.
BridgeTroll
January 29, 2010, 08:14:14 AMGood eye! Either the Feds moved Atlanta or by passed it completely!
heights unknown
January 29, 2010, 09:24:04 AMI would certainly ride these trains if they saved me time and money, and, if there was an orderly planned "hook up" so to speak to local transportation within the adjoining major cities; that also has to be considered, I feel, in the building and planning of these high speed rail systems. I also feel they should immediately build and snake them around the state hugging the interstate systems which already adjoin and link to the major cities. And again, ensure that the local city transportation systems, whether bus, rail, etc., also link "in time" to these high speed rail systems.
"HU"
blizz01
January 29, 2010, 09:51:33 AMAnd JAX is the new Brunswick!
finehoe
January 29, 2010, 10:09:35 AMA ridiculous pedestrian sky walk for downtown.
thelakelander
January 29, 2010, 11:00:49 AMand the fight for station locations begins....
Officials Differ Over Best Location of Polk County Stop for High-Speed Rail
http://www.theledger.com/article/20100128/NEWS/1285067?tc=ar
heights unknown
February 06, 2010, 08:19:11 PMThis is all a crock; if Jacksonville is not in the equation; I am not interested.
"HU"
tufsu1
February 06, 2010, 09:44:27 PMwhy not think regionally....mega regions are the new economic reality when competing globally...and our mega region is Florida
tufsu1
February 12, 2010, 11:06:32 AMHere's an update on the Lakeland station location issue
http://www.theledger.com/article/20100211/NEWS/2115070/1410?Title=Too-Soon-to-Pick-Rail-Stop-Location-to-Back
Captain Zissou
February 12, 2010, 11:10:56 AMI agree about mega regions, but this train is still stupid. Can somebody explain the extremely sharp turn the train is supposed to make just west of orlando?? Will the tracks in that area be at a 45 degree angle.
tufsu1
February 12, 2010, 11:28:03 AMthe curve isn't that bad...take a look at the main page for the thread...it shows the route in more detail...far better than some newspaper graphic.
Ocklawaha
February 12, 2010, 11:43:59 AMThe problem with Jacksonville is that we have suffered through 70 years of planning small. We didn't want Disney, didn't want Busch, didn't want tourists, didn't want our railroad hub, and, and, and...
The result, a very big city, with all of the amenities one would normally expect from Green Cove Springs.
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
February 12, 2010, 02:04:28 PMMore like Brunswick, IMHO.
CS Foltz
February 12, 2010, 05:07:10 PMMore like Mayport IMO!
Ocklawaha
February 12, 2010, 05:25:01 PMNow you guys have gone and made me feel guilty, I WAS a little hard on Green Cove Springs!
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
February 21, 2010, 07:05:44 AMHSR station location fight in Polk continues. Lakeland's newspaper's editorial staff believes the best location is the future site of USF Poly, which is roughly about 15 miles east of DT Lakeland. There is a video in the link that shows exactly how far it is from the city.
CS Foltz
February 21, 2010, 08:15:47 AMLets have a smack down match to get a stop in Lakeland! Winner take all and gets their stop! Clean, quick and simple............no consultant allowed!
thelakelander
February 21, 2010, 08:22:44 AMAt least they get to fight over a rail stop and the economic development that could possibly come with it. Maybe one day we can shrink to the size of Auburndale to have a serious discussion on rail and its impact on the surrounding area.
Ocklawaha
February 21, 2010, 10:01:20 AMSad part is Lake, if we don't change our ways quickly, we'll continue to stall out. Doubtlessly Central Florida will continue to grow, in fact the whole High Speed Rail Line is being built on SPRAWL, which it will depend on for passengers. So we have to ask the question, if we keep treading water, at what point will we meet Auburndale while traveling in oposite directions?
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 06:29:19 AMPanel of Officials to Pick Favored Stop for Rail Today
http://www.theledger.com/article/20100222/NEWS/2225054/1134?Title=Panel-of-Officials-to-Pick-Favored-Stop-for-Rail-Today
tufsu1
February 23, 2010, 08:11:16 AMseems to me that the USF site will win out...all 5 sites are in Lakeland city limits, the Lakeland City Commission wouldn't endorse any site, and it is what the rest of Polk County wants.
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 08:59:20 AMAfter looking at all the info presented so far on the station sites, the USF site makes more sense. None of these stations are going to draw significant ridership, imo, but the USF site will have a major university and the potential for 1,000s of acres of walkable transit friendly development that can be built around the station. The rest of the sites really offer nothing more than a park & ride location in the middle of low density suburbia.
thelakelander
February 24, 2010, 12:13:04 AMWhat a way to avoid the heat....
http://www.theledger.com/article/20100223/NEWS/100229891/1410?Title=Board-Backs-USF-Poly-and-Kathleen-Train-Stops&tc=ar
I have a solution. Give my home county two stations. One in Lakeland and one at US 27. You'll hit both sides of one of Central Florida's most rapidly growing counties.
Ocklawaha
February 24, 2010, 01:01:22 AMOnce upon a time, 5 flying monkeys from Jacksonville predicted that Florida High Speed Rail was a Sprawl Developers Dream, and that it was not a practical route for mommy and daddy to travel on. Big people rose up to tell the monkeys how blind they were, but the monkeys knew better. All too soon the money started to flow, and the developments started to go up. Wee wee wee! Some of the people yelled, now we will have lot's of jobs forever. But the monkeys shook their heads, as more stations were built the trains only got slower, and people found that they could drive to Tampa or Orlando just as fast and without spending all of that money. So lot's and lot's of people started to travel another way, Commuter Rail and Amtrak became popular. The Great Leader in Tallahassee, tried to fix the trains, soon less were going into airports and more were going into the middle of the cities. People liked that, so nobody noticed when the railroad lanes were paved over for more automobiles on the freeway, and the modern new trains were donated to Hati for dormotory use. Nobody noticed but the 5 flying monkeys, who sat silently with their laptops, shaking their heads... THE END...
OCKLAWAHA
FLYING MONKEY #1
thelakelander
March 04, 2010, 09:30:39 PMOcklawaha
March 05, 2010, 12:27:35 AMI've got it! Since we're running right off a cliff with this stupid project, let's tie it all together with BUS RAPID TRANSIT, after all, it's "Just like rail - only cheaper..."
This train project get's dumber every time I hear more of the details, by building walls around the train, we might as well order the equipment without windows and save ourselves a bunch of money. I can see the tourists talking and sharing their experiences of Florida by train:
"Wow, what a view Louie! THAT looked just like Florida Rock Concrete!"
"No Vinny, dat's definitely Gate Concrete there!"
"Well Louie, wadda suppose that patch was then?"
"Gotta be Sakrete Vinny, Gotta be Sakrete!"
"Ooh Yeah, your always right Louie, you sure know your cement walls..."
"Yeah well Vinny, when you do 20-life in Singsing, or 30 minutes on Florida's High Speed Train, you learn the scenery!"
BRILLIANT!
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
March 05, 2010, 08:33:01 AMhttp://www.theledger.com/article/20100304/NEWS/3045084/1410?Title=Orlando-Conference-Identifies-High-Speed-Rail-s-Success-Factors
tufsu1
March 05, 2010, 10:39:41 AMOnly $900 to attend this 2 day conference...what a deal!
buckethead
March 05, 2010, 01:49:40 PMFast trains are cool . . . and very expensive
By CARL HIAASEN
Of all the ways Florida could blow through $1.25 billion in federal recovery funds, a bullet train is certainly the flashiest.
Connecting Tampa, Orlando and Miami by high-speed rail is a scheme that's been chugging around for decades, and the prospects for profitability are the same today as they always were: Nil.
The money delivered by President Barack Obama last week in Tampa should have come with a note: ``Here's a gift from Uncle Sam. Now go build yourselves something you can't possibly afford to operate.''
Almost every passenger rail service in this country bleeds red ink and requires massive public subsidies, from Miami-Dade's infamous Metrorail to long-struggling Amtrak.
That didn't discourage Florida officials from eagerly petitioning the Obama administration for stimulus money to fund a sleek high-speed train.
The $1.25 billion grant announced by the president was the ``down payment'' for an 84-mile leg between Tampa and Orlando, braking at major tourist attractions along the way. The second phase, 240 miles, would link Orlando and Miami.
``An attractive and competitive transportation alternative for residents and visitors'' is what the government calls it. An extravagant fantasy is what it really is.
Fast trains are very cool, and these babies will streak along at average speeds of 168 mph to 186 mph. Unfortunately, such a high-tech rail system can't pay for itself.
Ridership depends on friendly ticket pricing. Consequently, every mile traveled on the bullet train will end up being bankrolled by public dollars.
Thirteen years ago, when the debate was in high gear, a national transit consultant released a 55-page report predicting that a high-speed railway between Central Florida and Miami would be a fiscal disaster.
Wendell Cox of the James Madison Institute said that not enough people would take the train, partly because it was cheaper for families to rent a car and drive the same routes. He estimated that the high-speed rail would cost Floridians between $14 billion and $39 billion in ongoing subsidies.
Unlike the U.S. government, states can't print their own money. Florida's Constitution requires a balanced budget, which means that running the bullet train would siphon precious funds away from schools, social services and public works projects.
Despite the manifest drawbacks, the dream of connecting South Florida and Central Florida by modern rail has refused to stall. Between 1996 and 1998, the Legislature appropriated $77 million just for bullet-train research.
Over the years, the project has had avid proponents in both parties, including Bob Graham and, more recently Sen. Bill Nelson and Gov. Charlie Crist.
An exception was Jeb Bush, who as governor led a charge that rallied voters to repeal a constitutional amendment authorizing funding of a bullet train. Bush believed the project was too costly, and he was right.
In those days, supporters touted high-speed rail as a way of easing highway congestion and spurring commerce between the state's key urban centers. Now, with unemployment sky-high, the bullet train is being hyped more as a jobs program.
There's no doubt that building a railway will put thousands of people to work for a few years. But, once the project is finished, it is estimated to leave only 600 permanent jobs.
Weigh those against the enormous long-term cost of maintaining and subsidizing a 324-mile train system, which will necessitate cutting or scrapping other state programs that currently employ hundreds of workers.
To be sure, high-speed rail will be a windfall for the consultants, developers and builders involved in the construction phases. The state agency handing out the contracts is the Department of Transportation, which has long pushed for a bullet train.
If you know anything about the inside politics of mass transit, the thought of entrusting $1.25 billion in stimulus money to the DOT is heart-stopping. Good luck trying to keep tabs on it all.
True, many capital projects being launched by recovery funds -- bridges, roads, levies -- will provide only temporary boosts to local economies. Yet you can also argue that, for somebody who's out of work, a construction job lasting six months or a year is better than no job at all.
The problem with the bullet-train boondoggle is that the back-end costs will smother the front-end benefits, and create a perpetual sucking drain on Florida's frail budget.
We'd be better off using the money to pave potholes.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/01/31/1454259/fast-trains-are-cool-and-very.html
JeffreyS
March 05, 2010, 02:05:11 PMI am no big fan of this first leg of the Florida HSR but CARL HIAASEN doesn't have a clue as to what the problems with it are. His we should spend the money on roads rant is just dumb. As if roads pay for themselves. He clearly did not spend five minutes trying to inform himself on the subject.
buckethead
March 05, 2010, 02:23:02 PMAre you saying you disagree with the basic premise of the article: HSR will be a finacial debauchle?
tufsu1
March 05, 2010, 02:45:16 PMHere's a more serious version asking similar questions
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=463426
JeffreyS
March 05, 2010, 03:50:44 PMIt is a tough call. I am kind of on his side that this isn't a great place to start. I just don't agree with the "if it isn't going to pay for itself it shouldn't be done". Transit is one of the few government run programs that attempts to pay for itself and somehow that makes it worse fiscally than those that generate zero revenue. I want transit I just feel a radical Amtrak higher speed rail expansion throughout the state would give us more bang for the buck. Or perhaps streetcar projects in the core of our cities would give us smarter growth and save money in many areas.
urbanlibertarian
March 05, 2010, 04:28:29 PMRoads and highways don't make a profit but the subsidies for them in $$ per passenger mile are tiny compared to rail. Air travel subsidies are even tinier in $$ per passenger mile and don't need much use of eminent domain for ROW aquisition. With the goverment in charge of it I expect this HSR experiment to turn out a lot like the Skyway has.
buckethead
March 05, 2010, 04:30:30 PMI agree with that assessment. He should have refrained from the "profitability" mantra. Otherwise, his article makes sense.
I don't recall much praise for Jeb Bush from him in the past.
tufsu1
March 18, 2010, 09:17:13 AMPotential rail hub at OIA?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-goaa-high-speed-rail-20100317,0,1341824.story
Ocklawaha
March 18, 2010, 10:48:46 AMReally? Who have you been reading? There was a story by the highway lobby that stated how much cheaper airlines were then rail, but it's so full of holes it won't hold up to any serious investigation. Actually the per passenger subsidy in the USA for airline passengers runs from around $40 to as high as $600. Even the most conservative think tanks place Amtrak at about $35 and they make no attempt to catalog high density urban rail.
I would agree with you that Orlando has seen too many rainbows and this particular project, on these particular routes smell worse then the south end of the proverbial northbound mule. Building a hub at OIA makes about as much sense as JTA building our own "transportation center" in Lawtey. If we tried something that stupid, would the press then jump onboard to explain how many millions are going to ride it to Gainesville? If your city is called
MICKEYI mean Orlando, I guess it does.OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
March 18, 2010, 03:39:45 PMYeah buddy! Rat Rail here we come! This makes about as much sense as the coming OIA HUB.........watch! The name should be change to the "Central Florida $kyway"!
urbanlibertarian
March 18, 2010, 05:52:51 PMOck, not per passenger. Per passenger mile.
thelakelander
March 25, 2010, 07:08:56 AMHere are a few renderings of the Orlando airport station:
tufsu1
May 04, 2010, 10:40:11 AMPoliticking for the next phase is in full swing
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/04/1611582/florida-pledges-to-seek-funds.html
CS Foltz
May 04, 2010, 11:52:20 AMIt is a pity that "Rat Rail" gets priority over something that could benefit the state!
tufsu1
May 04, 2010, 01:09:00 PMglad to see your message hasn't changed
CS Foltz
May 04, 2010, 02:55:38 PMThank you Sir! Train to nowhere as HSR is not true HSR! For the money being spent (yours and my tax dollars hard at work contributing to the deficit) a rail line to no where does nothing to enhance state wide mass transit! Miami leg is not funded yet and all of that money could have gone to upgrading FEC/AMTRAK rail and we would have something for the dollars instead of a showcase from nowhere to nowhere! Bad move for the dollars!
tufsu1
May 04, 2010, 03:03:46 PMhere's my frustration with your "its my tax dollars" argument....over 50% of Florida's tax revenues come from south Florida...how do you think those people feel when their money is spent in north Florida...like the 25% state share that would come for commuter rail or streetcars in Jacksonville?
CS Foltz
May 04, 2010, 03:13:55 PMI can not argue with that but must point out.........it is a matter of population location right? Tallahassee is controled by the southern regions and northest representation is minute! I don't tell Miami what to do or how to do it............they have options we don't ie Sunrail/Metro Rail? I don't really remember just which one is down that way.....they did not form a special taxing district to pay for it, it is still subsidized by state funds and I believe the Feds have a finger in that pie also! State gas tax is accross the board, not counting the local tax but Federal as well as State funds help them to operate that system! Let them build all of the concrete they want, toll it or whatever makes them happy! At the rate Miami is growing, we may become a suburb sooner than you think! We need a rail system that benefits the east coast from there to here, so the state can come off of what should be a part of our money also!
Mattius92
May 04, 2010, 03:16:48 PManother thing is, say if you asked someone outside of Florida, and ask them to name one city from Florida that you know of or you would like to live. How large of a chance do you think they will say Jacksonville.
We are like the largest unknown city in Florida, why we have that title... I could only guess. Maybe its because we have virtually nothing to offer, or maybe our football team just isn't good enough. All I can say is, if we want to get anything we certainly need to me known.
thelakelander
May 14, 2010, 06:41:01 AMMattius92
May 14, 2010, 12:31:39 PMPeople are saying that HSR wont make any profit, and it wont till a system is built, and not just a statewide system but a national system. On top of that it needs to be fast, fast enough and large enough that it could replace airplanes as the number one source of transportation. Once poeple start choosing rail over air, then the money will start to come. Sitting around and saying its worthless to build HSR is just making our nation look stupider and stupider. Countries like France, Japan, Taiwan and Germany have country-wide systems that are profitable. While our country is a lot larger, we still need to start with the little pieces and then eventually connect the system into a nation wide form or high speed transportation.
I would ride a train any day over flying if I could. However our passenger train system greatly lacks it potential.
Coolyfett
May 14, 2010, 02:15:11 PMI ask many people that very question....Miami & Orlando is what people often answer. Its for a lot of reasons.
thelakelander
May 28, 2010, 06:42:03 AMObama gives an additional $66 million to Florida HSR project.
full article: http://www.tampabay.com/news/obama-administration-releases-66-million-more-for-high-speed-rail-project/1098130
tufsu1
July 06, 2010, 08:47:27 AMThis is a bit comical (and as someone who worked on it, sad)...after 7 years of planning, folks in Tampa still can't agree on where the HSR station(s) should be
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jul/06/questions-arise-over-high-speed-rail-tia/news-metro/
CS Foltz
July 06, 2010, 01:20:23 PMtufsu......I feel your pain! I guess we need to do another study maybe huh?