Jeff from Mandarin:
"I would like to ask a question about the courthouse, regarding the design of it and why it is taking up almost seven city blocks as opposed to being built vertically like the federal courthouse was for $80 million dollars, which was also built to the standards of the Oklahoma City security adjustments that they made after the [Oklahoma City] bombings."
"The second concern is that the cost long term isn't just the cost of building the city over seven city blocks verse vertically, but the damage to Downtown Jacksonville over the long term. To take up seven city blocks most of which could be used for other types of development in the private sector or for more beneficial uses."
Mayor Peyton:
"Yeah Jeff, point well taken. First of all, the building is not going to take over seven blocks. I appreciate you letting me correct that. The actual building is really only going to sit on two blocks and it will have vertical nature to it. I think it's eight stories tall. Its almost as tall as the federal courthouse."
"So you got a design that I think does minimize the footprint and maximize the efficiency. We do have a large parking structure that sits, I think, on a block or maybe a block and a half across the street. There will be vacant land when we finish this project around that campus."
"Cause remember we're putting the state attorney in the old federal courthouse which is going to be, actually was the post office then the federal courthouse. We're going to renovate that. The public defender is going to be actually in the Ed ball building adjacent. So we're going to renovate space both in Ed Ball and the old federal courthouse to accommodate the public defender and the state attorney. You really got a whole complex. You're right it would be ridiculous to tie up seven blocks with one building and that's not going to happen."
The Truth:
Unless moving Monroe Street does not count, the new courthouse building will consume at least four blocks, as opposed to the two Peyton claims. However, Peyton is correct when he said that the main courthouse building does not take up seven blocks.
Instead, there are four buildings housing courthouse functions (New Courthouse Building, Ed Ball Building, Old Federal Courthouse, and Garages), that take up a total of seven blocks. Unfortunately, for Jeff from Mandarin and the Duval County taxpayers, that's the issue that brought the question to light in the first place.
Featured text from Part II - 27 minutes 15 second in.
Part I: http://www.wjct.org/mp3/weekly/fccmar5a.mp3
Part II: http://www.wjct.org/mp3/weekly/fccmar05b.mp3
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Deuce
March 16, 2009, 08:57:15 AMIsn't the fed courthouse 14 stories? How is 8 stories almost as tall?
thelakelander
March 16, 2009, 09:17:24 AMI'm 5'10", so its about the same as me being almost as tall as Shaq or Yao Ming.
jagsfan32092
March 16, 2009, 09:41:07 AMI work off Broad so I drive by this twice a day every day...I cannot believe this still hasn't started. No balls on Peyton's part. I honestly believe he wants the next mayor to deal with it.
9a is my backyard
March 16, 2009, 10:03:39 AMBut you see Lake, you got a design that I think does minimize your footprint and maximize your efficiency. So really, your an efficient 5'10", which is almost the same as an inefficient Shaq or Yao Ming.
stjr
March 16, 2009, 11:30:45 AMThanks, MetroJax for keeping the spotlight on this unmitigated Downtown disaster we will be forced to live with for at least the next 50 years (Peyton's Folly?). FYI, here is the original thread I started on this very same broadcast: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4543.0.html
From my post on this prior thread, here is the comparison with the TWENTY (20) story Federal Courthouse:
TheProfessor
March 16, 2009, 12:10:11 PMPeyton is lame. Can't wait for the next regime.
billy
March 16, 2009, 01:33:57 PMAny predictions on who the next mayor will, or should be?
Bike Jax
March 16, 2009, 01:48:44 PMBeen saying it for about 2 years now and still think if we want stuff done and done right. Tony Allegretti is the man.
vicupstate
March 16, 2009, 02:15:40 PMBeen saying it for about 2 years now and still think if we want stuff done and done right. Tony Allegretti is the man.
AMEN to that !!!
at the very LEAST, put him on city council.
copperfiend
March 16, 2009, 02:19:58 PMDavis?
Doctor_K
March 16, 2009, 03:44:57 PMAs in E. Davis? He has my vote.
9a is my backyard
March 16, 2009, 05:16:29 PMMake that two. Now that Brad Thorburn is out we need a new planning director as well. Mayor Allegretti and Planner Davis - let's bring some progress to this town!
Ocklawaha
March 16, 2009, 07:45:20 PMThere has been some speculation on George Bush moving (at least part time) to Jacksonville. He stated it would be good to be in a city where he got such warm support. I was just thinking, there would be NOTHING to stop him for running for mayor in a couple of years.... Even GW would be an improvement over PEYTON.
PS: I think Peytons building would make a swell streetcar barn!
OCKLAWAHA
stjr
March 16, 2009, 10:57:39 PMDoes George have any experience building courthouses? Maybe he will bring the Federal way of doing things with him and build vert-i-cal-ly! How about Dick Cheney as the new Sam Mousa?
TheProfessor
March 16, 2009, 11:07:55 PMI don't see the point in bringing in a curved road. It looks awkward to drive through and it goes right in front of the lower steps. If they install a road they need to continue the grid pattern. (which is impossible with with this design) They need to just keep the flawed building design, get rid of the curved road, and hire an intelligent landscape architect to transform the green space in front of the court house. Then maybe we can get on with our lives and build up the building fabric around there building. There is still hope!
mtraininjax
March 17, 2009, 12:12:57 AMIt is laughable,
When is the last time a business made such a bad decision?
DetroitInJAX
March 17, 2009, 12:41:37 AMWow.. good point mtraininjax....
The state builds a great offramp from 95 to Monroe and what does the city do? add a curve to the road.
So who else thinks that the city will end up closing Monroe off for "Security reasons", totally negating that great exit from 95?
mtraininjax
March 17, 2009, 12:49:36 AMIf they close Monroe there at the courthouse, they will make the horses, who have a nice expensive stable and housing at 95 and Monroe, to have to walk around the Taj Majal. Do we really need the expense of mounted horse patrols?
Could they not live out at the Equestrian Center?
stjr
March 17, 2009, 01:58:51 PMCorrect me if I am wrong, but isn't the western side of this project Broad Street? This is one way north, currently. As such, traffic could not turn right into the curve based on the graphic in the rendering. Traffic in the curve would have to originate from Pearl Street which is one way south. This would force traffic on Monroe in front of the courthouse in the OPPOSITE direction from traffic emanating from I-95. How foolish would this be?!! The alternative is to allow no access whatsoever to the curve from Pearl to preserve the current Monroe eastward flow or to reverse the traffic on Broad and Pearl to allow access from those streets into the curve. What a mess!
What has also not been answered is what will become of the green spaces outside "the curve"? Will they be retention ponds? A park? Grassy fields? Future development? "Protest parks"? More space for the homeless to collect? If they are used for public gatherings and events, will this interfere with the courthouse function? This area will be close to 1 and 1/2 city blocks rivaling Hemming Plaza in area.
Jason
March 17, 2009, 02:09:41 PMGreat points Stjr.
My guess is that the stretch of Monroe will become a "drop off" lane for visitors and/or taxis, and would be closed to through traffic if not closed off completely.
The green space between Adams and Monroe is kinda growing on me though. Assuming the surrounding properties are developed in a manner that addresses the new greenspace and the street, it could become a nice amenity.
I'm still puzzled about the location of the proposed building. Absolutely no concern was given to the nearby skyway and the potential to either locate the building in line with an existing station or to strategically extend the skyway to the new building.
Now there will be a continuous 4 block stretch consumed by buildings that close down at 5:00.
I would have put it on the Greyhound site. That would allow the Hemming area quick access to the new courthouse via the skyway only one stop down the line to Central Station. And The Greyhound would then be moved to a consolidated transportation center replacing the Prime Osborne. A new convention center would then replace the old courthouse and all is well for a future extension of the skyway to the sports complex via Bay Street.
thelakelander
March 17, 2009, 02:26:57 PMDespite the fact that this thing sucks up seven blocks, the space in front of the courthouse could be nice if a little thought is put into it (ex. opposite of Main Street Pocket Park). Unfortunately, for some reason, I would be suprised if it continues to be ignored.
Cliffs_Daughter
March 17, 2009, 02:37:55 PMMy guess is that the stretch of Monroe will become a "drop off" lane for visitors and/or taxis, and would be closed to through traffic if not closed off completely.
Monroe is already a "drop off" lane in its own right from Julia to Main anyway, or at least it is from 7 a.m. onward. I'm kinda used to it now. But since the Forsyth exit a b**** to get across lanes to, I really don't want to take Union.
I'd rather just drive up through Riverside if that's what it came to.
JeffreyS
March 18, 2009, 01:00:36 AMI love that a link to this article was on the TU home page.
stjr
March 18, 2009, 01:40:36 AMI have been meaning to ask, what is that "blue block" sandwiched between the Historic Federal Courthouse and the Ed Ball Building destined for? This is considered by the City to be part of the Courthouse project but I haven't seen how? There are actually 6 Blue Blocks PLUS the Historic Federal Courthouse (total of 7 blocks) PLUS the space in the Ed Ball Building!
This graphic shows what an albatross this project really is to Downtown and why it will be long remembered as Peyton's Folly. Maybe, if we mailed this to every citizen in Jax, the populace would realize why it's a shipwreck BEFORE they build it, rather than after.
And, still wondering what the explanation is for the traffic fiasco in the making:
thelakelander
March 18, 2009, 02:13:07 AMAt this point, it looks like the city will hold on to it for future courthouse expansion. In the decades in between, it will probably be additional greenspace (like the carved up blocks next to it) or surface parking.
Yes, the west boundary is Broad Street.
At this point, I believe Monroe will still be a one-way Eastbound Street. Broad Street traffic should be able to still turn right, assuming the turning radius is larger than what is being shown in the renderings.
Yes, its a mess. I would not be surprised if the curving portion of Monroe ends up being closed off to regular traffic, due to security concerns.
Prax_N_Jax
March 18, 2009, 10:06:45 AMit's amazing how a great sight like this is always overlooked. if the powers that be ask then they'd get a better planning committee from people on metrojax.... i just don't think anyone in the mayor's office is open to suggestions....
FayeforCure
March 18, 2009, 12:22:04 PMSorry, but I have to comment to the 20 percenters who still are blindly loyal to their party, despite the devastation caused under Republican rule.
In case anyone wonders, I too was once a registered Republican and certainly admit to many Democrats having contributed to the failed Republican "no-bid" money wasting practices, by either being active enablers or being too timid to stand up for us, the people.
That's why I urge everyone to look beyond party lines and look for the common good for the people. Chose your leaders wisely. Thankfully Duval county residents have come to their senses and mostly rejected "politics as usual" or "same old same old" during the last Presidential election.
I vote for Government FOR the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE, and hope that voters keep that in mind when they vote. After all, that IS what America stands for.
Jason
March 18, 2009, 12:37:52 PMFaye, I think his comment was "tongue-in-cheek" and meant to be a little sarcastic.
Correct me if I'm wrong Ock.
avanhorn555
April 02, 2009, 07:53:12 AMhere is the best solution.
The City buys the old Barnett Bank building and renovates that for a new courthouse.
We then save lots of money we can use to fund the school system next year, the judges get a beautiful edifice worthy of their lofty stature, it is next to plentiful parking garages, and is convenient to restaurants and shops. It takes a great building out of disrepair and puts it to good use. With the land the city has purchased for the new court house the city sells that to developers for housing, and downtown urban living space, the proceeds of which we can use to prop up the city retirement fund and other short falls.
thelakelander
April 02, 2009, 08:13:47 AMThe Barnett Building is way to small to accomodate their needs. I would not be suprised if its smaller or around the same size as the Bay Street courthouse.
Jason
April 02, 2009, 12:42:10 PMI love the idea, however, the Barnett building is not close to being large enough. The current building is larger.
BTW, welcome to MetroJacksonville!
mtraininjax
April 07, 2009, 02:04:37 AMDon Moran and the judges will demand new. Yeah it blows, but they figure they have lived in a building that has more band-aids than the old City Hall, so they need a newer structure. The City should take over the Barnett building and use it for City offices that were outsourced around town, bring them all back downtown, where City services should be managed from.
ChriswUfGator
April 20, 2009, 02:18:31 PMYou know they're just guna knock it down...
fsujax
April 20, 2009, 03:26:46 PMI think the City should give the building to Vestcor and let them do the same as they did with 11E and the Carling.
Lunican
April 20, 2009, 04:14:23 PMAt this point, it seems as though Peyton's plan to walk through the courthouse before he leaves office is an impossibility.
I guess the landfill deal really will be his legacy project.
stephendare
April 20, 2009, 04:17:56 PMI just took someone on an aerial tour of downtown. From the air its horrifyiing btw. In terms of sheer demolition and desolation, it seriously looks like the city was either bombed or burned down.
Not even Google shows all the new blasted properties.
If this had happened to the city during wartime, our leaders would have been taken out at sunrise and given a last cigarette.
stjr
April 28, 2009, 01:14:09 AMOh my God! Peyton's folly to break ground. It's hard to believe this mutant building is actually going to be allowed to come to life. I wonder if Peyton has figured out that it's not vertical yet.
The controversial $350 million project would open in 2012.
* By David Hunt
* Story updated at 12:45 AM on Tuesday, Apr. 28, 2009
Construction of the Duval County Courthouse could start next month as city officials review a $224.2 million construction plan.
That price, developed last week, is in the ballpark of a $223.6 million estimate reported earlier.
Combined with more than $60 million that's already been spent, as well as projected costs to relocate the state attorneys and public defenders, the project is expected to come within the $350 million cost ceiling the City Council set last year.
Mayor John Peyton's spokeswoman, Misty Skipper, said the $224.2 million would construct an 800,000-square-foot building in LaVilla. If the city gets a crew working next month, Skipper said, the building would be built by the time Peyton leaves office in 2011 and open for business by May 2012.
The city expects to pay $15 million to furnish the building and roughly $23 million to renovate the Old Federal Courthouse and Ed Ball Building to relocate state attorney and public defender staffs.
The $224.2 million plan goes before the city's contract proposals committee on Thursday, Skipper said.
The project has been one of the more controversial for the city in recent memory. Earlier this year, a grand jury scolded the city for wasting time and money but found nothing criminal.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-28/story/new_duval_courthouse_could_break_ground_soon_cost_224_million
Keith-N-Jax
April 28, 2009, 02:09:25 AMKey word is could start next month!!!
thelakelander
April 28, 2009, 06:48:53 AMI wonder how much will rerouting Monroe Street and improving the moonscape around the building add to the project's costs?
mtraininjax
April 28, 2009, 10:41:35 PMWe all know how the Mayor loves his "estimates". Bottom line is the taxpayers will get screwed with this boon-doggle.
tufsu1
April 29, 2009, 09:52:33 PMsorry, but its hard to believe that taxpayers would be in better shape pouring money into the existing building for years to come.
stjr
April 29, 2009, 11:35:54 PMI don't see many, if any, posts advocating for keeping the current courthouse. What people object to is the poor design, expense, and project management for a new one. What we are getting is an ugly, bloated, city space hogging, piggishly priced project wallowing in the mud!
thelakelander
April 29, 2009, 11:47:57 PMYou mean this isn't state of the art?
That precast concrete corner will look monumental for traffic coming off of I-95, via Monroe Street.