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The Ruins of Jacksonville: Hogans Creek

A walk along what may be Jacksonville's greatest urban ruin: The Hogans Creek Improvement Project.

Published June 22, 2009 in Neighborhoods      114 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article


feature

About The Hogans Creek Improvement Project



Quote
Hogans Creek Improvement Project: Confederate Park and Klutho Park

Springfield Park was the original name given to the long, narrow greenspace that forms the southwestern boundary of this neighborhood.  It traces its origin to 1898, when the Springfield Development Company deeded forty acres of land to the city.  Running along Hogans Creek from Laura to Tenth Street, the low-lying land required extensive filling to make it suitable for public use.  This work was completed shortly after the 1901 Fire.  In 1907, the city purchased another twenty acres between Main and Liberty Streets, which was named Dignan Park.  This linked Springfield Park and the Waterworks grounds to form a continuous park along Hogans Creek to the St. Johns River.  In 1914, Jacksonville hosted the Confederate Veterans Reunion, which attracted over 48,000 former Confederate soldiers.  Thousands of these elderly veterans camped in tents in Springfield Park and Dignan Park, and this event was later commemorated by changing the name from Dignan to Confederate Park.

The work of upgrading these park areas along the creek did not prevent them from becoming flooded after each heavy rain.  The Springfield Improvement Association lobbied for many years to have the area beautified, resulting in the city approving a $500,000 bond issue to finance the improvements in 1927.  Nothing was accomplished for over a year.  In 1928, architect H.J. Klutho came up with a plan that was adopted by the City Commission.  Engineer Charles V. Imeson was enlisted by Klutho to help with the project's design.  Completed in 1929, the work entailed diverting the creek channel in several places, construction of automatic tide locks and a pumping plant, and building two lakes to serve as reservoirs for the fluctuation of the tides.  The project also included much concrete construction: 6,300 feet of bulkheads, six vehicular bridges, three ornamental footbridges, 10,000 square yards of sidewalks, decorative balustrades, and light fixtures.  The Hogans Creek Improvement Project made this large park area one of the most scenic promenades in the city.

Ironically, during ensuing years the floodwater retention lakes have been filled, and architectural features of the park such as the ornamental light fixtures, balustrades, and bridges have been damaged or removed.  Hogans Creek, which once sparkled as Jacksonville's "Grand Canale," meanders over one mile through this remarkable park, sorely awaiting another Hogans Creek Improvement Project.  In 1984, the original portion of Springfield Park was renamed Klutho Park, honoring the architect who guided its renovation fifty-six years earlier and who was one of Springfield's best known citizens.

Source: Wayne W. Wood's Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage page 204


20 years after the description above was written the Hogans Creek Improvement Project continues to fall into the waterway it was designed to contain.




6. Sixth Street to Broad Street

















A school of small fish swimming by.  According to three men fishing in the Confederate Park pond, Nile Perch hang out in the creek and pond.









5. Broad Street to Pearl Street



























4. Pearl Street to First Street






















First Street to Laura Street












Peer City Example #1: Indianapolis Canal Walk



Quote
The Canal Walk is a portion of the Historic Central Canal, an early 19th-century project designed to facilitate commerce. Today, Canal Walk stretches through White River State Park north to 11th St.
Canal Walk features a mix of old and new architecture, attractions and monuments which offer a waterside promenade for strolls, jogging, inline skating, biking and boating.

Amenities: Pedal boat rentals, assorted bike rentals, gondola rides, murals, bridges, fountains, History Center waterside cafe, waterfalls.

http://visitindy.com/indianapolis/web/jsp/whattodo/detail.jsp?c=8079157:showhide&p=1


The centerpiece of Jacksonville's Central Park?



Hogans Creek aerial in 1939.

Quote
A question was asked on the MetroJax message boards about making the Hogan’s Creek parks the “Central Park” of Jacksonville.

This is not a new concept. Many people who have been involved in the parks over the years have mentioned this as a desire. Someone else asked about the size of the parks, and I thought I would compare them to other city’s “marquee” urban parks.

Downtowns Historic Springfield district parks make up about 37 Acres of parkland. This is made up of Confederate Park and playground, H.J. Klutho Park, W.W. Schell Park, and McPherson Park. This does not include any connecting land between Liberty the Northbank Riverwalk, which in an ideal work would complete a Hogan’s Creek Greenway.

By comparison, Boston Common is 48 acres, while New York’s Central Park is an unbelievable 843 Acres. Denver has about 80 acres of urban parks split between Civic Center Park, Sky Line Park, Sunken Gardens, Commons Park, and Confluence Park. Atlanta’s Piedmont Park is about 185 Acres, but includes the Botanical Gardens and 50 acres of undeveloped parkland. Charlottes Freedom Park comes in at 107 acres, but it well outside of the urban core.

In Florida, Miami’s Bayfront and Bicentennial parks are about 50 acres. And Orlando’s Lake Eola and Ivanhoe parks combine for 31 acres, not including the water.

Keep in mind also, if our historic districts parks were to be "redeveloped", they could be even larger because the south side of the creek is mostly undeveloped city property.

In all, if the Hogan’s Creek and McCoys Creek Greenways were to be completed and tied into the Riverwalk system, it would give Jacksonville over 8 miles of nearly contiguous access to the river and urban greenspaces. They would also be tied into other river front parks like the Kids Kampus, Metro Park, and Memorial Park when the Northbank Riverwalk is extended. You could walk from Shands to 5points, or from Cummer to the Stadium with minimal interaction with traffic.

If we do this right, we may not have the largest urban park system, but we will have one of the most unique urban parks in the US.

http://downtownparks.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html



Peer City Example #2: Richmond Canal Walk



In 1999, the City of Richmond completed its canal walk project, a refurbishment of a 1.25 mile segment of the Haxall Canal and the James River & Kanawha Canal that had fallen into disuse. Developed as a tourist destination, the area surrounding the Canal Walk was branded by The River District Alliance (RDA) (a 501(c)6 public/private organization) as "The River District.".



3. Laura Street to Main Street












2. Main Street to Hubbard Street
















1. Hubbard Street to Market Street






Market Street to Liberty Street




Peer City Example #3: San Antonio Riverwalk



Quote
The famed San Antonio Riverwalk, or Paseo Del Rio, is a 2 1/2 mile stretch of beautifully landscaped waterfront that features many of San Antonio's most spectacular hotels, restaurants, night clubs, bars, shopping centers and businesses. It is one of the most dynamic tourist attractions in the entire state of Texas, pouring nearly $800 million a year into the local economy. While it is an amazing and romantic place to visit, that wasn't always true.

In the beginning, Spanish Explorers used the waterway to supply water to their missions. Mission San Antonio de Valero, also known as The Alamo, was the first to benefit from it. The river flooded its banks many times. In September 1921 the worst flood in its history killed over fifty people and caused millions of dollars in damage to the city.  City planners struggled over what to do while large debates rang among the people.  One man, an architect named Robert H. H. Hugman proposed a plan that would turn the area into a beautiful urban park with apartments, dining, shopping, boat rides and walk ways lit with old-fashioned street lamps. He wanted it to be just as if one were walking in Venice, Italy. After convincing city officials and business leaders of the financial benefits of his plan, the dream became a reality and the riverwalk was eventually sculpted into the masterpiece you see today.

Later, in the 1930's, many efforts were made to clean and beautify the river by groups like the San Antonio Advertising Club, Daughters of the American Revolution San Antonio chapter, and the San Antonio Real Estate Board. Hugman worked many years with the city to construct the plans for the riverwalk, however, despite their best efforts it would be years before the riverwalk could be called a success due to low business volumes and a high level of crime. The 1960's, on the other hand, was a great time for improvement and growth. Paseo Del Rio Association was established in 1969 to promote the continuous improvement and development of the riverwalk.

Today, the people of San Antonio continue to preserve its history and beauty and develop its economic resources. It truly is one of the greatest vacation destinations in the United States.

http://www.sanantonioriverwalk.com/history.html



Historically Neglected

Quote
Hogan's Creek has a history like few other bodies of water in the city of Jacksonville, with the notable exception of the St Johns River. It served as a natural firebreak during the Great Fire, saving homes, businesses, and even the original St Lukes Hospital from the flames that ripped through Downtown Jacksonville. The Jacksonville Subtropical Exposition, destination for many tourists in the late 1800’s was built on the Creek. The Expo later became Jacksonville’s Water Works and Home to Big Jim, the famed Steam Whistle. The Jacksonville Zoo even started on the banks of Hogan’s Creek.

Today the creek runs next to Shands Hospital, two JEA drinking water reservoirs, Bethel Baptist Church, The Parks and Recreation Building, and a large number of public housing units. It also runs the length of down town Jacksonville’s largest greenway with over 30 acres of park land, which lies about five blocks from City Hall.

I was all prepared to start ranting and raving over the state of Hogan’s Creek. To express disappointment over a city that claims to want its parks to go from the biggest to the best, but seems to ignore a park within a stones throw of its leaders offices. Then, after I read the words of Henry Klutho, one of Jacksonville’s most famous and influential architects, I realized the city has always neglected the creek. When Klutho revitalized the creek in 1929, he spoke of the "improvements to Hogan's Creek" calling it "an unsightly and rather filthy stream." He stated that "A general opinion prevailed that a large underground duct should be designed", but instead at the behest of the Springfield Woman’s Club, he worked to improve the creek. With a city issued bond Klutho was able to work miracles and install a balustrade and beautiful bridges. His work was so remarkable that it was written about in engineering magazines, and was the subject of countless Jacksonville Postcards and photographs.

Now, seventy five years later, we find a creek that is possibly in worse condition than how Klutho found it in 1929. The remnants of Klutho’s work are neglected, graffitied, and falling apart. The creek itself has harmful levels of fecal coloform bacteria, and other pollutants. There is litter, debris, and weeds choking the creek all the way from Shands to the Maxwell House plant, yet all the city seems to say is, "Yup, it’s a nasty creek".

Many Springfield residents and downtown workers hope to see a return to the days when the creek was serene and beautiful. Just imagine the possibilities of a Hogan’s Creek walkway tied into the Downtown Riverwalk system. It would be a jewel for all of Jacksonville to enjoy. The only way this can happen is if the city gets serious about solving the problems facing the creek. It won’t be cheap, but it will be worth it, especially to a thriving urban center.
http://downtownparks.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_archive.html

Article by Ennis Davis








114 Comments

BridgeTroll

June 22, 2009, 06:45:11 AM
Sad...

mtraininjax

June 22, 2009, 08:21:38 AM
Add McCoy's Creek to that as well. You would think someone could fix the flooding that continues there every time it rains....

Hurricane

June 22, 2009, 08:22:17 AM
How did JAX let our downtown and surrounding areas become such an eye sore? 

5PointsGuy

June 22, 2009, 08:50:31 AM
What a waste of potential... And all those pipes that were just put in all willy-nilly through the railings...

hightowerlover

June 22, 2009, 09:15:17 AM
what a disgrace! 

JeffreyS

June 22, 2009, 09:15:48 AM
Jax could have such a wonderful urban core every part is neglected.

jaxlore

June 22, 2009, 09:26:56 AM
wow that is sad. that could really be something, i could see people walking, biking, etc up and down the creek. Talk about neglecting property can the city fine itself?

JeffreyS

June 22, 2009, 09:29:20 AM
So we close sections of our rail lines in that area to make bike lanes instead of revitalizing Hogans creek that would be an awesome bike trail.

Karl_Pilkington

June 22, 2009, 09:29:49 AM
How did JAX let our downtown and surrounding areas become such an eye sore? 

thats how they roll here in Jacksontucky.  its about embracing the blight, keeps em grounded.  when they travel to other cities they can see how its done, but the draw of trash filled streets with boarded up dilapidated buildings brings them home.  most of the powers that be though only visit jacksontucky during the day, when the sun begins to set they high tail it back to their suburban paradise in St. Johns or Clay county where they can rest assured that they've made it and now can only feel bad and really want to help those left behind.

brainstormer

June 22, 2009, 09:33:33 AM
I dream of a day when I can hop on the Hogans Creek Trail and run all the way to Metro Park.

I dream of a day when I can safely ride my bike on a bike trail from Springfield to RAM via the Maxwell House and Riverwalk.

I dream of a day when Jacksonville will embrace its history and fill the Hogans Creek Trail with fountains, picnic benches, playgrounds and history lessons/statues of those like Klutho.

I dream of a day when the city stops neglecting it's urban core.

Thank you for the history lesson.  Great article.

Rocshaboc

June 22, 2009, 09:40:44 AM
Hello all. This is why Jacksonville gets overlooked as a tourist destination. Why can't we take advantage of this? Pathetic.

hanjin1

June 22, 2009, 09:51:08 AM
that's how we roll. man, I can't wait for some new leadership in this town.

RiversideLoki

June 22, 2009, 10:05:05 AM
I made a comment on the FB post but I'll repeat it here. This is yet another example of how money is being wasted in the burbs at the expense of the core. Fix this creek! It's a shame what was once such a beautiful resource has fallen into so much disrepair! If you want more than homeless people in the spgfld/downtown core, you need to make it appealing to the citizens! Mayor Payton has lost sight of what so many of us "common folks" learned playing Sim City on the computer so many years ago!

billy

June 22, 2009, 10:06:29 AM
You should be able to get on a trail/bike path near Shands,
take it to the Shipyards and head upriver to Memorial Park.

Beloki

June 22, 2009, 10:13:48 AM
I totally agree that this is a great opportunity to turn this into something similar as San Antonio's Riverwalk..... Think about the developments that would offspring!! I wonder if this can connect all the way to the riverwalk on the northbank??
Ahhhh,,, this should be a city's and developers dream!!!

thelakelander

June 22, 2009, 10:22:15 AM
^Its possible to connect them.  Its a part of the 2000 Downtown Master Plan.  However, who knows if it will happen in our lifetimes.

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 11:25:05 AM
Great job on the photo essay Lake.

As you know, when I recently walked the creek, there are whole sections of the balustrade that are in danger of coming completely up within a year or so.   Even the moorings that hold them in place are excavated because of the water erosion around the base.

This is by far a more pressing matter than any other single issue in Springfield and its a little shocking that no one seems to have noticed it.

One of the first things that could and should be done immediately is to replace some fill dirt into the areas around the balustrade that have been water eroded , and a nice application of rock to prevent quick re erosion before something more substantial can be done.

It also wouldnt hurt to immediately plant some hardy rooting plants at the points of erosion in order to slow down the water reclamation.

In light of the new study showing the contamination under the duck pond at confederate park, this whole area is going to have to be addressed, but if some simple shoring up doesnt happen, this can quickly escalate into a major problem.

Thanks for getting this story out there Ennis.

JeffreyS

June 22, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
Has the 2000 downtown master plan ever been posted here.

heights unknown

June 22, 2009, 12:32:48 PM
It's fine to have new leadership, but let's get new leadership in with a fresh new vision, focus, and guiding light relative to improving Jacksonville not only in the urban core but all around.  Our urban core and downtown, especially, have been neglected now for over 50 years...it's time for a change, and that change begins with new leadership that cares about Jacksonville's, history, her present, and certainly her future, all in a progressive light.

Heights Unknown

heights unknown

June 22, 2009, 12:34:06 PM
Are they going to redevelop, reconstruct and/or improve this thing?  If so, when is the timeline to begin the construction process and finish?

Heights Unknown

Omarvelous09

June 22, 2009, 12:53:24 PM
I live across the street from The Warren Schell Jr Park (6th & Boulevard), and i see this sad site everyday. The city does come every now & again to paint the bridge and pick up the grabage, but the railings are still falling into the creek & the sidewalks along the creek are sinking....why isnt this a priority?

TD*

June 22, 2009, 01:09:29 PM
Nothing happens with out an investment. If all of you who commented on this thread wrote a letter to the city and showed up at a commission meeting expressing your feeling of reinvigorating hogans creek, it would get done. It takes effort on your part to alert officials of the wasted potential. I urge you all to show up together to a meeting and speak on it.

Write letters to the commission.


It will get done, but only if people put out some effort.

Ron Mexico

June 22, 2009, 01:29:39 PM
What a shame.  Could be such a great park....

5PointsGuy

June 22, 2009, 01:48:00 PM
Lol, love the Sim City reference...

civil42806

June 22, 2009, 02:18:58 PM
I made a comment on the FB post but I'll repeat it here. This is yet another example of how money is being wasted in the burbs at the expense of the core. Fix this creek! It's a shame what was once such a beautiful resource has fallen into so much disrepair! If you want more than homeless people in the spgfld/downtown core, you need to make it appealing to the citizens! Mayor Payton has lost sight of what so many of us "common folks" learned playing Sim City on the computer so many years ago!

Well with all due respect, don't think you can lay this one at Peytons door.  Unfortunatley the city has allowed this once great park decline to nothing.  Don't car for Peyton any more than anyone else but can't throw this one in his lap.

RiversideLoki

June 22, 2009, 03:09:30 PM
I suppose you're right. He does have his hands full with the courthouse, the skyway, the shipyards, the trail ridge dealio, the transit problem, and making sure the developers are taken care of (to name just a few.) I can see why he wouldn't have time or resources to devote to beautifying one of Jacksonville's both historic and promising public spaces.

So much to do, so little time.

thelakelander

June 22, 2009, 03:11:52 PM
^You definitely can't blame Peyton for the current condition of this space.  However, what about Parks & Recreation?  Aren't they supposed to be in charge of maintaining public park space?  Where have they been for the last 50 years?

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 03:17:55 PM
I think its one those things that people assume SPAR is taking care of.

I know that when it was brought up a year ago that the park was in dreadful shape, one of the SPAR board members got bent out of shape that the park was being discussed outside of the SPAR environs.

thelakelander

June 22, 2009, 03:23:40 PM
Maybe its me, but its crazy to assume SPAR should be maintaining a mile long public park system.  The maintenance of the Hogans Creek Improvement Project fell apart decades before they were founded.

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 03:28:06 PM
I think it is crazy as well.  Insane in fact. 

But a properly motivated and educated citizens group could be pretty effective in that park.

The City needs to reinvest into the furniture and infrastructure, but the place is a prime candidate for a citizen led bioremediation and reforestation effort.

But it, like the historic oak canopy over springfield is on the verge of blinking out of existence.

These issues have got to be addressed if the neighborhood is going to maintain anything significant in the way of property values.

brainstormer

June 22, 2009, 03:29:37 PM
^ I agree, Peyton is not to blame for this.  It makes me think of our discussions to the posted thread below about Jacksonville's history of always taking the cheap route and trying to get by with very little.  No one in this city wants to pay for the quality of life they expect.  While money isn't always spent wisely, there is a mentality here unlike other cities I've lived in.  Everyone complains about how much everything sucks (roads, parks, storm drains, schools, etc.) but no one wants to pay the taxes that would be needed to make all of these things better.  This is a multi-generational view that I'm guessing has existed here for decades.

In my opinion, consolidation ruined this city.  If the city of Jacksonville was still small and included just the urban areas, we could vote to raise our taxes and in turn the money would be spent on things we prioritized, like creating a central park along Hogans Creek.  If you didn't want the higher taxes then move to the outer suburbs and enjoy not having parks or nice green public spaces.  As things stand now, the tax money is spread over this enormous landmass and it is hard to visualize where all of our money goes.  I vote the urban core and Springfield succeeds from the union. :;

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5268.msg82168.html#msg82168

thelakelander

June 22, 2009, 03:37:27 PM
I think it is crazy as well.  Insane in fact. 

But a properly motivated and educated citizens group could be pretty effective in that park.

To their credit, park advocates have been pretty effective in what they have been able to accomplish since 2003.  The parks are in much better shape and more inviting than they used to be.  Nevertheless, I do wonder why JEA fenced in the connection between Main and Laura.  Also, what's the deal with the greenway project?  I thought it was funded a couple of years ago.

 

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 03:40:24 PM
Some park advocate in some areas have had some success.

But the two main elements of Springfield that should have been fixed first in a large scale is the balustrade of that park and restoring the Oak Canopy before it fails completely.

The efforts of the volunteers in the park have been extraordinary, especially those of DTP and Chris Farley with the Women's Club, but this larger aspect of the botanical environment of Springfield has been overlooked, because people assumed it was being taken care of.

I think even we here at Metrojacksonville fall into that category btw.

BridgeTroll

June 22, 2009, 03:48:01 PM
Can those very large live oaks be transplanted?

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 03:52:44 PM
no, but saplings can be planted, which is what has to happen.

this effort was started but not maintained.

downtownparks

June 22, 2009, 04:08:40 PM
Nothing was ever assumed by anyone I worked with. In my plea to the city when I was actively working the issue, my focus was on #1 environmental remediation (by any means), #2 architectural preservation and restoration, and #2a usability. Chris Farley has also spent a lot of time and effort on the issue of architectural preservation, digging up some great engineering information on the creeks channelizing in 1929. Rita Regan, Doug Vanderlaan, and several others not even in the community have also spent considerable time on the issue over the last decade or so.

Lots of ideas have been put forward, but with lack of funding, very little is possible. Meetings have been held with multiple agencies, local, state, and federal, about the problems that exist, including Congresswoman Brown herself, and the ways to handle them. Everyone knows there is a problem. The problem is 100% a funding problem.

When Doug and I were working together, we attacked the small issues we knew we could get done because we knew that was where we could have the biggest impact short term. removing chain link and razor wire, removing no longer in-use utility poles, removing, or cleaning abandoned JEA buildings, cleaning litter, painting bridges, addressing social degradation where drugs or prostitution had become a problem.

UrbanJacksonville has tried to address some of these issues too by way of advocacy.

SACARC and the womans club have done a great job on bringing in the dog park and the Rose Arbor (among other things), but everyone who has tried to attack the environmental issues, have run into brick walls.

Most recently, Jennifer Holbrook has made great strides in getting Councilman Gaffney on board with coming up with a comprehensive plan (Something Vanderlaan and I could never get Councilwoman Lockett-Felder to buy into) and is bringing some big players to the table. I think she has the right players, now someone has to figure out how to pay for it, be it fund raising or tax money, or some combination there in.

Its a massive problem that will require, at a minimum, government buy in, if not funding.

stephendare

June 22, 2009, 04:16:54 PM
All good steps.

But if the shoring up with fill dirt isn't done soon, then large parts of that balustrade arent going to survive.

Its too bad that there arent any donors in the community willing to contribute the same amount that was contributed to the crime fund for some emergency measures being implemented along the creek.

But as I said earlier, while the infrastructure has to be paid for by the state or city, there is plenty that a well directed community group could do (bioremediation, fill dirt, and refoliating) that would make a significant difference.

coredumped

June 22, 2009, 06:50:52 PM
Jokingly, in another thread, people were talking about "getting their shovels" and "getting to work." (I think it may have been the skyscraper thread). Is this something that could really be done by volunteers? This certainly seems like an easier task than building a skyscraper.
Are there any experts here that can estimate time & resources required to repair by section?

strider

June 22, 2009, 07:22:58 PM
OK, it has been a while since I talked to the people involved about this but:

Wasn't there a huge ceromony and a rather large check issued by the city many years ago to address the park issues?  The womans club was behind it and Lisa Neary was in the fore front then...the city was surprised that an actually check was issued and Lisa snatched it up.  Something happened with the contamination and the whole thing was put on hold.  The money sat making interest for years.  I think that Chris Farley mentioned that some or all of this money was finally used for something in the parks not too long ago. Chris, can you comment on this?

This just goes to show that this park has been considered important before and it seems the contamination has been the hold up.  Has that changed?  Isn't there still a plan in place to allow the parks to get cleaned up?  And isn't the contamination part of the reason the skating park is being seriously considered? If it is still being considered.

civil42806

June 22, 2009, 07:57:02 PM
Jokingly, in another thread, people were talking about "getting their shovels" and "getting to work." (I think it may have been the skyscraper thread). Is this something that could really be done by volunteers? This certainly seems like an easier task than building a skyscraper.
Are there any experts here that can estimate time & resources required to repair by section?

There is a system for volunteers to help maintain parks, but I don't think it would include anything of this scope

downtownparks

June 22, 2009, 09:25:43 PM
Yes, you can get a friends of the park permit, and this will give you some limited ability to do things. The community has done a lot already. Painted bridges, planted planters, dug out sidewalks, cleaned hundreds of bags of litter and garbage out from underneath the bridges. Citibank has come in to help, celebration church has come in to help.

All these efforts are great, but its just a bandage on a bazooka wound at this point. some serious attention needs to be paid to the creek, and surrounding park system.

Ocklawaha

June 22, 2009, 10:15:46 PM
Jokingly, in another thread, people were talking about "getting their shovels" and "getting to work." (I think it may have been the skyscraper thread). Is this something that could really be done by volunteers? This certainly seems like an easier task than building a skyscraper.
Are there any experts here that can estimate time & resources required to repair by section?

I don't think it was jokingly! These are dedicated streetcar or railroad buff's talking, and YES they would rebuild the Santa Fe, tie by tie if they were asked to. 1504? Jacksonville Traction? Piece of cake...

To save the ornate concrete works of the old Klutho parks, we'd have to embed porcupine quills in the toppers to keep the human excrement off of them. Maybe a couple of us ancient Vietnam Vets could come down and lay out some VC style booby traps... I always thought this was just a exaggerated tale to shock the city into action, then I tried to walk there! You could move faster with ski's on. YUCK.


OCKLAWAHA

barberofdeville

June 23, 2009, 12:13:12 AM
Ok folks Jaxentucky im hoping doesnt refer to Kentucky. Louisville has a great urban core and some of the best parks in the country as well as several areas that could be used as examples for JAX to use. The highlands area, Crescent Hill area, St. Mathews, and the downtown has been revitalized and is making great movement in these areas. Anyway i moved here from Louisville recently and look at JAX as a great opportunity for growth and community projects. One of the reasons Louisville has faired so well is community involvement from sorrounding areas of metro louisville. Volunteer work, donations, and from consumers supporting local places. When you patronize a chain that money goes to thier headqaurters and not back into the community. I shop where i can afford most of the time, but i still try and buy local when i can. The comments on San Antonio are spot on i was there over 2 years ago and that River Walk made me want to move there. San Antonio's river walk didnt always look like that, niether did Louisville. It took over 20 years of dedication by a whole lot of people and alot of volunteer work.

"Getting your shovel's" and "getting to work" may just be what it takes. As far as being done by volunteers the answer is yes! You may not be able to do the concrete and stone work(unless there are some concrete workers or stone Masons here). What you can do is volunteer some ours and get togethor with others and do some Landscape planning and implementation to make it look better. Little bits here and there make good places to start. Money is tight in government right now im sure with all the forclosures and the economic crisis going on. However if it gets looking better down there people will start going there more often and the city will have to take notice (if not in the beginning eventually they will have to) Im sure if a group of volunteers for this project were put togethor  they would be willing to atleast put out some money for material cost. If not im sure we all have some plants in our yards that can be seperated and planted. The only way its going to happen is if we the people of JAX rally togethor and get it done. If we get JAX looking good then Tourism will happen. If tourism happens the economy goes up. There is lot of people out of work sittin on there arses at the moment and im sure some of them are bored outta there minds. Just some food for thought.

BOfficer

June 23, 2009, 05:15:57 PM
Wow, so much wasted potential.  Another great post that shows how Jacksonville has great "bones" but needs some rehab to take it to the next level. 

Ocklawaha

June 23, 2009, 05:23:12 PM
I've always been delighted by those parks, now having walked the whole thing, im convinced it might be a good place for the military to store unused napalm and cordite.  I mean, what's the worst that could happen?

OCKLAWAHA

stjr

June 23, 2009, 09:29:42 PM
How many Parks directors have we had in the last 20 or so years?  And, isn't Parks now part of Public Works?  The fact is is that Parks are a political football in Jax with all the City Council reps having a say in how the money is spent in their districts and no central, overall prioritization for the entire City without all the Council reps buying in.  If this is the case, they don't give without getting and the whole process gets distorted and abused.

We need a centralized governing body vested and focused on parks for all before we can get the best for Jax citizens.  This body also needs to enlist citizen involvement by working with neighborhood associations, companies, and citizens to encourage "adopt a parks" etc. to support them.  And then, we need to create a Parks police division or deputize parks' employees to forcefully patrol and enforce litter and basic park decorum on those citizens who abuse our parks.  It's not going to happen with a very busy and over qualified JSO department.

mtraininjax

June 24, 2009, 04:21:52 PM
Paul Crawford, who used to work in the Mayor's office is the director, as far as I know, of the park system. Brad Thoburn used to be the planning director and he worked in the Mayor's office. Kerry Stewart used to work in the Mayor's office and is now head of the Jax Housing Authority, among other things....

Anyone see a pattern here....work in the mayor's office and you can then work anywhere the mayor has a need for your loyalty.

I-10east

June 25, 2009, 10:31:37 PM
I know never say never, but I do not see the "gondolas cruising down the canal" restaurant lined waterway, San Antonio riverwalk vision concerning the Hogan Creek area. That area is very flood prone, and Hogan Creek isn't navigable, because of low bridges, pipes, and a number of things. How bout something more small scale, like masonry work on the banisters, a lil' dredging in some areas of the creek, some sidewalk work, and some foliage. IMO it's unfair to compare areas like S.A's riverwalk to Hogan Creek. Sometimes you gotta play with the cards that you're dealt with; HC wasn't meant to be a high capacity "restaurants lining the waterway" type of area that everyone dreams about.

thelakelander

June 25, 2009, 10:47:53 PM
Do put too much into the article.  There is no hidden agenda saying Metro Jacksonville wants gondolas in Hogans Creek.  However, the waterway can be what you make of it.  The setting and existing environment could offer a mix of amenties to the local community.  For example, south of the Arlington Expressway you could canoe or paddle boat, etc because all of the bridges have decent clearance.









http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-nov-paddling-up-hogans-creek

Anyway, the point of the story is not to outright copy the San Antonio model or anyone else's.  The article strictly highlights a forgotten urban core treasure that should become a higher priority for the city.  Whether we attempt to stick gondolas in there, line it with restaurants, improve the water quality or just preserve the historic architecture will ultimately be left up to the city and community.  The examples are just there to show what other cities have done with forgotten canals, waterways and streams in their urban core.

Ocklawaha

June 25, 2009, 11:54:24 PM
My paddling experience suggests the real snafu is where the creek goes under the Arlington Expressway in a couple of tiny box culverts. This also explains the flooding issues on the other side. FDOT/JTA has some plans to redo that road sometime in the future, if we could get a much higher clearence and more overall volume there, the (completely cleaned up) creek would be great to paddle. North of Arlington Expressway as far as Main or Boulevard, they once had paddle boats. Today that could be done again by lifting the Klutho bridges and making the channel user friendly.



Such are the things dreams are made of...


OCKLAWAHA

Keith-N-Jax

June 25, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
Bottom line no park, creek or what ever should with stand the neglect this park, creek has.

jeh1980

July 10, 2009, 10:45:34 PM
I read that the efforts on cleaning up Jacksonville's creeks are moving forward. So we all know what that can mean for Hogan's Creek!

Overstreet

September 16, 2009, 03:14:34 PM
 Hogan's creek bottled up in that confined canal is a flood hazard waiting to happen.  Which it used to do in the summer at the Health Department in the summer quite often flooding the parking lot covering some cars. 

The deteriorated hand rail and steep sides makes it a safety hazard. I'm sure that JEA fenced off their portion over safety concerns.

One of the differences between Hogan’s creek and Indianapolis Canal is that in Indy the canal is the main water source for the city water treatment plant. They’ve always kept it clean and maintained. It was relatively recent (last 20 years) that they turned it into a parkway.

JaxBorn1962

October 21, 2009, 06:45:18 AM
Sad and it will be a long time before anything is done here its just sad.

Dog Walker

October 21, 2009, 09:23:59 AM
We have long looked on our natural creeks as just drainage ditches.  Did you know that the Times-Union Building is built OVER McCoy's Creek where it enters the river.  How is that for smart.

chris farley

October 21, 2009, 09:32:29 AM
I did some research recently on the creek for input at the Visioning meeting.  The creek was dredged and bulk headed c 1906, 23 years prior to Klutho.  They only drove piles for the bulkheading which was a mistake, the ground under the park is fluid.  They filled what is now Confederate Park  and the Dog park and Orange Street with City Garbage and Sand but, afterwards naptha launches were able to go from the river to 8th Street and there was a widening of the creek in the Confederate Park area as a jetty.

sheclown

October 21, 2009, 09:33:20 AM
We haven't been very good stewards of our water here -- the river, the creeks.   :(

Captain Zissou

October 21, 2009, 10:03:33 AM
We haven't been very good stewards of our water here -- the river, the creeks.   :(

Too true. And what was said about McCoy's Creek, you'd never know it was there unless you saw it from the riverwalk.

fsu813

October 21, 2009, 06:33:10 PM
Chris Farley knows a lot of Jax history.

chris farley

October 21, 2009, 08:09:37 PM
quote, Hogan's creek bottled up in that confined canal is a flood hazard waiting to happen.  Which it used to do in the summer at the Health Department in the summer quite often flooding the parking lot covering some cars. 

That is not what is causing the flooding - we have to keep the river out.  There is a 12 - 14 inch tide and in storms at high tide it is 4.5 ft.  When they filled Confederate park as I said above it was to bring it up to high water level,  Imeson the engineer that worked with Klutho in 1929 recognized this - that is why lock gates were put at the river and two huge pumps were used to take the water flowing into the creek during high tide and storms  and pump it into the river.  The lock gates worked like a heart valve, when the river was low the water in the creek flowed out, when the tide came in it closed the gates.  They are probably on the bottom of the river now, they were oak and bronze.  What also is really the problem, c 1900 the park was about 42 acres, it has a water shed of 25,000 acres.  NOW the park is only 27 acres but the watershed is still the same but much of it has been paved over and built up so the run off is far worse.  You mention the health dept and its parking lot, that should never have been built, it is on park land.  Nowadays Springfield would have protested such an action.
The problem is the fluid matter under the park also.  When the city was filling it the weight of the fill caused the underneath to ooze up.  That is why Klutho/Imeson gave the creek a wooden bottom with two feet of sand, this to allow the water to come up through the bottom but prevent the muck and mud.  There is going to be a bunch of stuff put on the SHEC Springfield Heritage Education website - the old museum about this.  I have been collecting history on the park and creek. if you find  bottles in the park after a flood check then out they could be from the 100 year old garbage. I was given one this week, it was a sample of Foley's Kidney Cure and is worth about $20  In the late 1800s the creek was also a sewer. There will be something written for the Spring tour book
.

stephendare

October 21, 2009, 08:12:43 PM
great information chris!

Are there any photos of the old locks and pumps?

zoo

October 22, 2009, 07:01:15 AM
Chris, let me know if you/SHEC need any imagery of Klutho/Imeson's HCIP plans -- I've got all of the orig plans from the City engineering dept digitized. I'll send some to Lake also, in case he wants to post (I don't use a photo site to do so myself).

billy

October 22, 2009, 07:40:49 AM
Great information.
Is there a pdf avaiable of the overall site plan?

JeffreyS

October 22, 2009, 08:05:08 AM
You know before MetroJacksonville posted this story I had never thought about Hogans creek. I now wish very much we would remake it into the Jewel it can be.

Lucasjj

October 22, 2009, 08:59:54 AM
While they are cleaning up the creek, they should do something about the ducks around there. The sidewalks through Confederate Park are disgusting from the amount of bird crap. I know in one apartment complex I lived in that when there became what they considered to many ducks they would have a certain amount removed. This helped keep the sidewalks from being covered in bird crap.

chris farley

October 22, 2009, 03:09:02 PM
Zoo thankyou, I am going to a shec meeting next week, the web is being revamped, there are great plans for it. I will put this on the table, if you wish to attend the meeting you are welcome - my email farley1626@msn.com. Mack Bisette did get copies of Klutho/Imeson plans - actual size though, if yours are digitalized that would be wonderful.  Klutho considered his "Venetian Waterway" his greatest achievement.  I am fearful since some of the plans put forward for the creek suggest to remove the Klutho walls and allow the creek to become natural.  Natural would mean a return to a swamp which during the dry season could once again become a garbage covered plain.
The stuff from the early 1900s I got from the FTU, also a drawing of the dredge Priorleau which had two types of equipment, one for dredging and one for pile driving,  they went one way doing one job and then the other doing the other.  Priorleau was a city engineer and I guess the dredge was named for him.  I do not know how to post pictures or I would put it on here.
Some of this stuff is going to be used in the Pilot Club demetery tour, some interesting deaths due to the creek. 
Incidently if the creek is cleaned of the silt it may not be dredged, it has to be vacuumed, a dredge would break the sills and let the walls go.

buckethead

October 22, 2009, 06:53:21 PM
While they are cleaning up the creek, they should do something about the ducks around there. The sidewalks through Confederate Park are disgusting from the amount of bird crap. I know in one apartment complex I lived in that when there became what they considered to many ducks they would have a certain amount removed. This helped keep the sidewalks from being covered in bird crap.
Open a China Gate restaurant?

zoo

October 23, 2009, 07:05:51 AM
Quote
You know before MetroJacksonville posted this story I had never thought about Hogans creek. I now wish very much we would remake it into the Jewel it can be.

THIS IS HAPPENING!

HDR Engineering, in conjunction with COJ Parks & Rec, the Project for Public Spaces (pps.org) and SPAR Counci, has been working on the master plan for the Park/Creek from Liberty to 8th since February of this year. There have been two sets of community input meetings (one in July, and one in Sept -- info was posted on another thread here about it, and it was in SPAR's weekly update email several times).

Final concepting is now underway, and HDR plans to present preliminary concepts to the community at the October 29 general meeting at the SPAR building at 1321 Main St. (7p) The final master plan is scheduled for completion by January 2010. Funding sources for implementation are already being identified.

Please be sure to attend if you are interested!

billy

October 23, 2009, 02:11:18 PM
What about the section of Hogan's Creek from Liberty Street to the Saint Johns River at the Shipyards site? 
Is that not covered?

Interesting article in the NY Times online (preview of coming Sunday magazine article) about the Gowanus Canal
in Brooklyn.

fsu813

October 23, 2009, 02:38:35 PM
i wonder if Riverkeeper might be interetsed in participating....

Hogan's Creek is a tributary, a very well known tributary at that, and has enviornmental issues that no doubt make it's way in the St. Johns.

anyone know somebody over there?

Dog Walker

October 23, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
The Riverkeeper is staying in touch with the project through Jennifer Holbrook and has put her in touch with people that can help her.  Jimmy Orth, the Riverkeeper director, says that she is being a real bulldog on this and will not let anything or anyone discourage her.  Good for her!

Riverkeeper is especially enthusiastic about this project because it would be the first (!!) creek restoration project in the county and they feel it would be the impetus to get some of the other creeks restored as well.  Get them clean; keep them clean!

Good guys, Neil and Jimmy.

fsu813

October 23, 2009, 04:27:44 PM
very happy to hear that.

chris farley

October 23, 2009, 11:14:43 PM
I only just found out that the true name is Hogans Creek not Hogan's Creek (possessive Hogan) .  It was named for Zacharia Hogans.  Maybe useless piece of trivia.

Dog Walker

October 24, 2009, 11:48:21 AM
Pieces of trivia should be loved for themselves.  They don't have to useful.  Philips Highway should have only one ell and no apostrophe, too.

billy

October 24, 2009, 11:49:16 AM
We stand corrected.

Dreaminginpen

January 06, 2010, 10:55:20 PM
The more I read about my city, the more disgusted I become.  We hold a wonderful potential right in our neglectful hands so why is it all so sadly forgotten.  I am almost ashamed to call Jacksonville home.  How can I speak proudly of my home town when all the things that make it interesting and beautiful are simply pushed aside and discarded? 

It is my hope that Jacksonville can become lovely once more.

mtraininjax

January 06, 2010, 11:04:54 PM
Dog - Derek Dewan is very familiar with Philips Highway!

Dog Walker

January 07, 2010, 08:49:31 AM
You mean Phillip's Highway?  LOL!

stephendare

March 14, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
I went for a full walk of the park yesterday with Janice (or as Dan B. likes to call her, the imaginary Miss DeadGirlsDontDance) and explained to her the long sordid history of the park.  What a perfect Venn Diagram of failure, in which incompetence, ignorance of history, bad aesthetical sense and misdirected do goodism intersect to create the park.

Its been months, and nothing has been done to shore up the balustrade.  Nothing.

I guess all the 'community leaders' are too busy trying to prevent Silas Jones from opening a car wash. 

Its time for someone besides Springfield to step in on behalf of the park.

sheclown

March 14, 2010, 01:41:56 PM
What if we are all just imaginary characters in Stephendare's mind?

stephendare

March 14, 2010, 01:43:43 PM
What if we are all just imaginary characters in Stephendare's mind?

I guess that would make one of our neighbors on Laura either a prophet or the comic relief.

sheclown

March 14, 2010, 01:53:35 PM
having us walking around 'with skin on' is much better entertainment.

What do you think can be done about the balustrades, anything immediately?  Could we fix them with some sackrete and elbow grease?

stephendare

March 14, 2010, 01:54:30 PM
having us walking around 'with skin on' is much better entertainment.

What do you think can be done about the balustrades, anything immediately?  Could we fix them with some sackrete and elbow grease?

We can stabilize them.   It would take a few people or a couple of weekends.

Lunican

March 14, 2010, 02:01:13 PM

sheclown

March 14, 2010, 02:02:47 PM
let's do it.

Ocklawaha

March 14, 2010, 02:09:11 PM

Philip II and Mary I

You mean Phillip's Highway?  LOL!

No dog walker, he means "Phi L ips", as in King Philip II of Spain. In Spanish the ll sound's more like a "Ya" as in llama. Spanish almost never uses double letters and frankly when in doubt never double Spanish letters.

Philip was one smart and educated guy, but he never learned to read English! Spain reached it's peak of power under Philip, in the 1560-70's, shifting the balance of power in the Mediterranean away from the Ottoman's in a great sea battle. Inflation also reached it's peak early in his reign bankrupting the nation, which then leaned heavily on Cuba, Colombia, Florida and the rest of the new world not only for it's mineral wealth, but an increasing amount of trade goods. He kept the faith of the Catholic Church, and that eventually would cost Spain dearly. Had his message been received in time he probably would have had the hand of Queen Mary I of England. Their joint title was: Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, Jerusalem, both the Sicilies and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tirol. Mary not only became Queen Consort of Spain but also "Queen of the Spanish East and West Indies and of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea.

He was responsible for stringing the detached Florida settlements to the rest of the continent with a dirt track that crossed the St. Johns River, in the Great Double Bend, at a cow ford. "...and now you know the rest of the story..."

After the death of Mary I, Philip would have probably married Elizabeth, Queen of England, but she didn't get the message in time. Meanwhile we have the mess created by Henry VIII, and Excommunication by the Catholic Church. While the Church always held that Mary Queen of Scot's was the rightful heir to the throne because Henry and crew were heretic's. Even so, king Philip, the guy who is ultimately responsible for the bloodletting against the Protestants at Ft. Caroline and Matanzas, went to bat for the British, and intervened with the Pope, on their behalf.

Likewise the German and Russian Crown's were intermarried with the United Kingdom, which is why Hitler would state in a speach, "The British are not our natural enemy's..."



OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha

March 14, 2010, 02:12:43 PM
BTW, SOMEBODY tell the City how to SPELL! Down by the Avenue's at Avenue's Walk, they have Philip's misspelled.
Don't worry the sign shop boy's gradegietad frum a Jaccsonnbille Hi Skol.


OCKLAWAHA

stephendare

March 14, 2010, 02:14:16 PM
let's do it.

What have you got in mind?

Dog Walker

March 14, 2010, 06:00:12 PM
Ock, I was making a joke about the common misspelling of Philips Highway and do habla enough to know the difference between a llama and a Tibetan priest.

Was completely thrown off once when a friend told me to look for him in a "heaprow" (Cuban accent).  He got exasperated at my incomprehension and said in English, " A f***ing red Jeep!"  Face slap time.

Ocklawaha

March 14, 2010, 06:03:27 PM
Hopefully somebody used your springboard to LEARN something about our city and it's cool history.

BTW, I've tooled about the Ande's in a bunch of "Heaps".



OCKLAWAHA

sheclown

March 14, 2010, 06:21:04 PM
let's fix the balustrades

nvrenuf

March 23, 2010, 12:17:47 PM
William Thomas is assisting Ray Beeson in shoring up the community garden retaining wall. Maybe he has some ideas.

stephendare

March 23, 2010, 12:51:39 PM
William Thomas is assisting Ray Beeson in shoring up the community garden retaining wall. Maybe he has some ideas.

Ray is a hard working smart guy.  Im sure he would have some insight into a solution.  Perhaps you might ask him, Nvrenuf!

Good idea.

nvrenuf

March 23, 2010, 01:13:34 PM
William Thomas is assisting Ray Beeson in shoring up the community garden retaining wall. Maybe he has some ideas.

Ray is a hard working smart guy.  Im sure he would have some insight into a solution.  Perhaps you might ask him, Nvrenuf!

Good idea.

I don't see Ray often but will ask Amanda if she can talk to him about it. I will talk to William next time I see him.

Timkin

July 07, 2010, 12:36:37 AM
Cool presentation... If you guys get around to working on this ,id love to pitch in...

rainfrog

July 07, 2010, 05:35:38 AM
Ock, I hope you don't mind too much me stepping on your toes here, as I truly don't mean any disrespect. :) Linguistics is a big interest of mine, and my academic background is in public history, so I just wanted to chime in. I've read that the naming of Philips Highway originated from a local judge named Henry Bethune Philips, and in that case it would not be a possessive but a surname (with no apostrophe.) Even so, regarding the king of Spain (Felipe II de España), while the single "L" and double "LL" indeed form separate phonemes in Spanish, that is not directly related to the name Philip or its alternative spelling, Phillip, which are English equivalents to the Spanish name Felipe. (Note also that the phoneme "PH" is not generally found in Spanish.)

Historically, European proper names were often translated as long as an equivalent existed, which is in contrast to present use, when we see things like an English-language Lady Gaga song about an "Alejandro" instead of an "Alexander." ;D

Well heck, while I'm toe-stomping :P, I'm pretty sure Philips, Avenues, and Andes should all be without apostrophes, each for slightly different reasons.

Timkin

July 07, 2010, 01:11:02 PM
Toe-stomping happens alot 'round here :D

Noone

October 06, 2010, 03:51:30 AM
Paul Crawford, who used to work in the Mayor's office is the director, as far as I know, of the park system. Brad Thoburn used to be the planning director and he worked in the Mayor's office. Kerry Stewart used to work in the Mayor's office and is now head of the Jax Housing Authority, among other things....

Anyone see a pattern here....work in the mayor's office and you can then work anywhere the mayor has a need for your loyalty.

Paul was the interim director of Parks and Rec. I'll always remember that we brought in John Culbreth as the new director of Parks and Rec. At his city council confirmation I went up to him and introduced myself and mentioned that when he gets a chance I'd love to show him the Old Fuller Warren Bridge. He asked me where is it. I told him I'll show you. He said, I want to see it.

Martha Shirko set up the appt for us to meet John Culbreth. We met at the Parks and Rec at the armory. Paul was there and it was a hurried meeting and we never got to show John Culbreth the opportunity that was the Old Fuller Warren Bridge. Culbreth was out and we know what happened to the OFWB.

Kelley Borree is the head of the Parks Dept. And the parks dept. in my opinion has done a good job in maintaining them. What eveyone needs to know that the Dept is now called Parks, Recreation, Entertainment and now to include Conservation.

Brad Thoburn wore many hats. He was the Duval county representative for the St. Johns River Alliance when they met for some of their meetings. This group comprises 12 counties and as a whole the mission is to promote and celebrate our St. Johns River our American Heritage River. I was given an opportunity to give a presentation to the group about the benefit of saving and using the Old Fuller Warren Bridge for Public Access and Economic opportunity. I was hoping that the SJRA would offer a resolution of support.

So can you imagine my drop jaw astonishment when then acting chair Sue Carlson Brevard county asks Brad would you like the SJRA to offer a resolution and he responds "NO" we choose to handle it in house.

Other counties are saying to me John how can we help when your own county is opposed.

Remember the Parks Task Force Report?
The JCCI River Dance study..... Putting the River in River city?
Downtown Vision report by Chan Krieger and Associates?
Shipyards/Landmar?
Pocket Parks-Pocket Piers?
JU Marine Science Research Institute-Real potential benefit for Springfield and Hogans Creek

Hogans Creek!
McCoys Creek!
680' Promised Downtown Public Pier!

This is an election year. Ask the candidates their position. Hogans Creek can be brought back but it will take immediate legislative action.

 

Noone

April 02, 2011, 02:06:29 PM
Has anyone heard from councilman Gaffney?

The Public Trust has been totally crushed in this community.

If the people of Jacksonville think for one second we will be getting more access and economic opportunity to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River we are all in La La Land.

Rules committee meeting in 44 hours. Will an amendment be attached to 2010-856 that would exempt the Waterways especially when in 12 days there is a meeting of the St. Johns River Alliance and an update on the seeking of a statewide designation of a blueway paddling trail for the 310 miles of our St. Johns River our American Heritage River but we just past an ordinance that could restrict participation in Duval county with a one mile ban.

The Honorable Patricia Northey, Volusia county along with Lisa Rinamon with the administration was made aware of the situation as well as my city councilman Don Redman Dist.4 at the December Board meeting in Palatka. Hope there is an update and a resolution to this potential economic jobs killer piece of legislation.

Be concerned and keep score.

Nothing is happening in Dist.4 & 7.

Noone

April 02, 2011, 02:56:56 PM
Do put too much into the article.  There is no hidden agenda saying Metro Jacksonville wants gondolas in Hogans Creek.  However, the waterway can be what you make of it.  The setting and existing environment could offer a mix of amenties to the local community.  For example, south of the Arlington Expressway you could canoe or paddle boat, etc because all of the bridges have decent clearance.









http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-nov-paddling-up-hogans-creek

Anyway, the point of the story is not to outright copy the San Antonio model or anyone else's.  The article strictly highlights a forgotten urban core treasure that should become a higher priority for the city.  Whether we attempt to stick gondolas in there, line it with restaurants, improve the water quality or just preserve the historic architecture will ultimately be left up to the city and community.  The examples are just there to show what other cities have done with forgotten canals, waterways and streams in their urban core.

Lake nice pics. That shopping cart in the top pic is outta there. Hats off to everyone that is cleaning it up and making it happen. The earlier posts are a clear indication that many have felt this sense of frustration.

Gaffney has lollipop money right now. This is Dist.7.

Use it or lose it.

Noone

August 10, 2011, 03:17:22 AM
Miss FixIt I saw your post on Walkable neighborhoods and your inquiry about Hogans Creek and this was the link. There is a Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting in 6 1/2 hours and only 1 item on the agenda. They didn't have a Waterways meeting in July. But the one item is money from FIND (Florida Inland Navigation District) for cleanup projects.  What timing.

Noone

September 08, 2011, 08:35:38 AM
Springfield. Where are you?
Bobsims on another post you were going to contact Gaffney. Good luck. Time is running out and the Public Trust is just being totally destroyed in this community.
Mayor Julian Castro of San Antonio will be in Jacksonville tomorrow to speak to our leaders.
What is Jacksonville's message to its residents and potential partners?
All one has to do is look at previous studies and protectionist legislation for the select few.
2011-560
2010-675
2005-207
2011-364
2010-856
City council meeting in 5 days.
Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting in 6 days. 9:30 council chambers. There will be an update on the Aug.31st FIND subcommittee canoe and kayak launch meeting.
Where is the Brown administration on this?
My only question.......Will we be telling the World

VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
           or
DON"T VISIT JACKSONVILLE!

I honestly can't tell you.
2010-604
Councilman Redman, provide the help so we can tell the world to VISIT JACKSONVILLE!

Noone

November 14, 2012, 03:26:36 AM
Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting in 6 hours. just got the agenda yesterday and the St. Johns Riverkeeper is on the agenda. Still seeking a letter of support from the (SJRK) Administration that would keep the Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier (Shipyards III) outside the control of this new DIA. Anyone going?

The Commissioners of FIND are in Duval county this month. 2012-402 We just left $500,000 on the table in the last FIND grant cycle. The total destruction of the Public Trust. Backroom deals.5 years later still don't have a sponsor to take to the commissioners of FIND. We are so LOST. Palms Fish Camp -Who gets the promotion? Who gets fired? 2010-604, 2010-856

DIA Board meeting in 10 1/2 hours. 2012-623 was deferred at last nights city council meeting. 2012-624 was introduced. CRA reporting will elevate the Shipyards III Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier throughout the state of Florida. Anyone going?

Anyone want to kayak Hogans Creek?
 We Khan Make It Happen.
I'm All In

duvaldude08

November 14, 2012, 10:47:26 AM
I get upset everytime I look at Hogans Creek. I am still amazed that the city has let this happened. And those hazard signs are so embarassing. If I was visiting Jacksonville and wanted to walk into the park, I would turn around when I see a sign with a dead fish on it. Seriously they need to do something about this. Its like they dont even care.

John P

November 14, 2012, 04:36:41 PM
Got a fifty millions dollars? neither does the city.
Federal grants are needed.

MEGATRON

November 15, 2012, 10:47:26 AM
Got a fifty millions dollars? neither does the city.
Federal grants are needed.
$50M for what?

Ocklawaha

November 15, 2012, 11:17:26 AM
From Hogan Street, northward and slightly westward, all the way to the VA and Shand's we could include this as an environmental benefit of funding the Skyway extension to 8Th Street. The original plans have it running north on Hogan then following the south and west bank of the creek all the way to the hospital.

This is a project that Jacksonville could easily get funded. You'd have the elements of mass transit, environmental and historical which would sell the grant request to FTA. It needs to be a package deal, with grants from the various federal agencies dealing with each of those elements involved.

Question is does Jacksonville have the desire to move forward, and if sol, do we have the grantsmanship talent to put such a proposal together?

Bill Hoff

November 15, 2012, 08:22:39 PM
Grants are being applied for.

BackinJax05

November 16, 2012, 04:45:33 PM
Yet another forgotten, neglected piece of Jacksonville that has the potential to be beautiful. (Edison, Phoenix, Annie Lytle School, the Bostwick bldg, the old Barnett Building, Arlington)

If the bridges were a little higher and those God-awful pipes were removed, after a good cleaning of the trash, Hogans Creek would be perfect for canoeing and fishing.

(Actually, if people ducked their heads on some of the bridges they might be OK. But please, GET RID OF THOSE PIPES)

Ocklawaha

November 17, 2012, 11:03:48 AM
The good news is, bridges CAN be raised, so little to no historical damage there. Pipes can be raised or rerouted. Massive fills with freeway box culverts under them can't be changed without a major reconstruction so access between the upper and lower segments of the creek is cut off by the Arlington Expressway. A creek with a concrete bottom set about level with the mean tide would have to be dredged in order for canoe traffic to make use of it again. Lastly, restoration of the 3 lakes/ponds might go a long way toward restoration of the health of the waterway.

If_I_Loved_you

November 17, 2012, 11:10:25 AM
The good news is, bridges CAN be raised, so little to no historical damage there. Pipes can be raised or rerouted. Massive fills with freeway box culverts under them can't be changed without a major reconstruction so access between the upper and lower segments of the creek is cut off by the Arlington Expressway. A creek with a concrete bottom set about level with the mean tide would have to be dredged in order for canoe traffic to make use of it again. Lastly, restoration of the 3 lakes/ponds might go a long way toward restoration of the health of the waterway.
Troll talking and who is going to pay for this? Don't forget your dust?

Ocklawaha

November 17, 2012, 11:24:00 AM
Nobody, but the fact is the Arlington Expressway has already gone through some engineering and will need an overhaul in the not-to-distant future. The Skyway might eventually go north as planned. In either case there is an opportunity to change the future of the creek and make it family friendly.

billy

November 17, 2012, 12:39:06 PM
Has there ever been talk, sensibly or not) of reconnecting Beaver Street (currently truncated just past Palmetto)?

Restoration of three lakes/pond also means flood control and possibility of bio-remediation.

Ocklawaha

November 17, 2012, 01:40:19 PM
billy, check out my article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring

To reach the "7" line, the streetcars would need to use the cut-off portion of Beaver Street. I wouldn't restore it for automobiles as game day traffic going east on Beaver would clash with traffic coming down the ramp at A.P.Randolph and possibly create a I-95/JTB scissor cross over. Where the pavement ends the railroad tracks would continue, there is even the possibility of pulling in some grants for the waterway as a bridge would need to be constructed.
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