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Elements of Urbanism: Baltimore

Baltimore's successful Inner Harbor serves as an example of successfully implementing a redevelopment strategy built around the concept of connectivity.

Published July 30, 2009 in Learning From     Digg Digg   Share this article on Facebook Share on Facebook   twitterTweet this!

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Tale of the Tape:

Baltimore Pop. 2008: 636,919 (City); 2,667,117 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1797)

Jacksonville Pop. 2008: 807,815 (City); 1,313,228 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1832)

City population 1950: Jacksonville (204,517); Baltimore (949,708)



Metropolitan Area Growth rate (2000-2008)

Baltimore: +4.47%
Jacksonville: +16.97%



Urban Area Population (2000 census)

Baltimore: 2,076,354 (ranked 18 nationwide)
Jacksonville: 882,295 (ranked 43 nationwide)



Urban Area Population Density (2000 census)

Baltimore: 3,041.3 people per square mile
Jacksonville: 2,149.2 people per square mile



City Population Growth from 2000 to 2008

Baltimore: -14,235
Jacksonville: +72,312



Convention Center Exhibition Space:

Baltimore: Baltimore Convention Center (1979)  - 300,000 square feet on two levels
Jacksonville: Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center (1986) - 78,500 square feet



Attached to Convention Center:

Baltimore: Connected to the 752 room Hilton Baltimore
Jacksonville: N/A



Tallest Building:



Baltimore: Legg Mason Building - 529 feet
Jacksonville: Bank of America Tower - 617 feet



Downtown Fortune 500 companies:

Baltimore: Constellation Energy (125), Legg Mason (500)
Jacksonville: CSX (240)



Urban infill obstacles:

Baltimore: A lack of fixed mass transit on the East side of the city.
Jacksonville: State & Union Streets cut off Downtown Jacksonville from Springfield.



Downtown Nightlife:



Baltimore: Inner Harbor; A concentration of strip clubs along Baltimore St, between Holliday and Gay Street.
Jacksonville: East Bay Street, located between Main Street and Liberty Street.



Common Downtown Albatross:

A continued challenge to draw significant development away from the waterfront.


Who's Downtown is more walkable?

Baltimore: 89 out of 100, according to walkscore.com (Downtown neighborhood)
Jacksonville: 95 out of 100, according to walkscore.com (Downtown Jacksonville as keyword)


Top 4 Walkable Neighborhoods, according to walkscore.com

Baltimore: Federal Hill (95 out of 100), Fells Point (92), Inner Harbor (91) and Downtown (89)
Jacksonville: Downtown (88 out of 100), San Marco (80), Fairfax (71) and Riverside (71)


Baltimore - Jacksonville Scaled Comparison


Jacksonville municipal borders: present (red), pre-consolidated city limits (green)



Jacksonville present (red line) and pre-consolidated city limits (green line) over Baltimore's city limits (red shaded area)


The Inner Harbor



Quote
While Baltimore has been a major U.S. seaport since the 1700s, the historically shallow water of the Inner Harbor (prior to manipulation through dredging) was not conducive to large ships or heavy industry, most of which was concentrated in Locust Point, Fell's Point, and Canton. The Inner Harbor was chiefly a light freight commercial port and passenger port until the 1950s, when economic shifts ended both the freight and passenger use of the Inner Harbor, such as the Old Bay Line's steamers. Rotting warehouses and piers were eventually torn down and replaced by open, grass-covered parkland that was used for recreational purposes and occasional large events, such as city fairs and the significant 1976 bicentennial visit of tall ships. This initial renewal of the harbor area and its continued transformation into a major cultural and economic area of the city was spearheaded by Baltimore Mayor Thomas J. D'Alesandro, Jr. (1947-1959). Harborplace, the waterfront festival marketplace, officially opened on July 1, 1980. Since being reincarnated as a cultural hub, the Inner Harbor has become the home to many tourist attractions. The two anchor attractions, in addition to Harborplace, are the National Aquarium in Baltimore and the Maryland Science Center.

In recent years, the area along the waterfront to the east of the Inner Harbor (in the direction of Fells Point and Little Italy) has been developed with condominiums, retail space, restaurants, and hotels; this ongoing project is known as Inner Harbor East (or simply HarborEast).

While little development-appropriate land remains around the Inner Harbor, what land is available has attracted much interest and many plans, many of which have never been realized. In recent years, there has been a decided push by developers to construct projects on the remaining parcels. The ongoing, proposed, and recently completed projects include many mixed-use developments incorporating office space, street-level retail, and condominiums as well as some hotel projects.

Recent or proposed projects include Lockwood Place, a mixed-use project on Pratt St. between Market Pl. and Gay St. featuring Best Buy, Filene's Basement, Panera Bread, Famous Footwear, and P.F. Chang's; the Ritz Carlton Residences, a condominium project on Key Hwy. at the southeast corner of the Inner Harbor; and 10 Inner Harbor, a proposed mixed-use project at southwest corner of Light and Conway Sts. that includes a 59-story tower, which would be the tallest building in Baltimore (a title currently held by the Legg Mason Building).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Harbor


Over the years, a steady flow of attractions have opened within walking distance of each other in the Inner Harbor.

1976 - Maryland Science Center



The Maryland Science Center, located in Baltimore's Inner Harbor, opened to the public in 1976. It includes three levels of exhibits, a planetarium, and an observatory. It was one of the original structures that drove the revitalization of the Baltimore Inner Harbor from its industrial roots to a thriving downtown destination. In 1987, an IMAX theater was added, but the museum continued to show its age as the end of the 20th century approached. In 2004, a large addition to the property was opened, and the modernized hands-on exhibits now include more than two dozen dinosaur skeletons. Subjects that the center displays include physical science, space, Earth science, the human body, and blue crabs that are native to the Chesapeake Bay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_Science_Center


1977 - Baltimore World Trade Center



The Baltimore World Trade Center is the world's tallest equilateral five-sided building (the five-sided JPMorgan Chase Tower in Houston, Texas is taller, but has unequal sides). It was designed by the firm of the famous architect I.M. Pei, with the principal architects being Henry Cobb and Pershing Wong. The building was completed in 1977 at a cost of $22 million.

The building was positioned so that a corner points out towards the waters of the Inner Harbor, suggesting the prow of a ship

The Baltimore World Trade Center has an observation deck, called "Top of the World," that is open to the public during daytime hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_World_Trade_Center


1979 - Baltimore Convention Center



The Baltimore Convention Center was originally constructed in 1979 as one of the early cornerstones in the redevelopment process of the Inner Harbor.  Despite the success of the surrounding area over the years, the convention center did not live up to expectations until a convention center hotel was added in 2008.

During the next two decades, due in part to the success of the Convention Center and the other attractions, Oriole Park at Camden Yards, Sports Legends Museum at Camden Yards, M&T Bank Stadium, Power Plant Live!, and the Reginald F. Lewis Museum of Maryland African-American History, have joined the area, creating a ten-block plus entertainment and cultural destination at Baltimore's Inner Harbor, further increasing tourist dollars flowing into the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Convention_Center


July 1, 1980 - Harborplace opens



Harborplace is a festival marketplace in Baltimore, Maryland, that opened in 1980 as a centerpiece of the revival of downtown Baltimore. As its name suggests, it is located on the Inner Harbor.

Harborplace is composed of 2 two-story pavilions, the Pratt Street Pavilion and the Light Street Pavilion. The third part of the Harborplace complex, located across Pratt Street from the Harbor, is a four-story glass-enclosed building known as The Gallery at Harborplace, which opened in 1987 and which is attached to Baltimore's Renaissance Hotel. Each of these buildings contains dozens of stores and restaurants. Many of the stores sell merchandise specific to Baltimore or the state of Maryland, such as blue crab food products, Baltimore Orioles and Ravens merchandise, Edgar Allan Poe products, and University of Maryland Terrapins clothing. Local merchants are complemented by national retailers and restaurants, such as The Cheesecake Factory, Johnny Rockets, Five Guys, Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, Gap, Victoria's Secret, Bath & Body Works, bebe, Fire & Ice, Starbucks, Brooks Brothers, Urban Outfitters, Uno Chicago Grill, and Swarovski.

Harborplace was designed by Benjamin C. Thompson and was built by the developer James W. Rouse and The Rouse Company near the former Light Street site of the Old Bay Line's steamship terminal and docks (1898–1950).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harborplace


1981 - National Aquarium



It was opened in 1981 and was constructed during the urban renewal period of Baltimore. The aquarium has an annual attendance of 1.6 million to see its collection of 16,500 specimens of 560 different species. Particular attractions include the dolphin display, rooftop rainforest, and central ray pool, and multiple-story shark tank. The National Aquarium in Baltimore is widely considered to be one of the best in the United States, if not the whole world. Coastal Living named it the #1 aquarium in the U.S. in 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Aquarium_in_Baltimore


1985 - Pratt Street Power Plant



The plant was completed in 1909 and originally served as the main source of power for the city's streetcar system.  After the electric plant was retired from service, the building was vacant for a time. The building had been the site of many failed development endeavors, most notably an indoor Six Flags theme park (1985-1989) and a short-lived dance club called P.T. Flagg's (1989-1990). The Power Plant now contains the first ESPN Zone in the country (opened July 11, 1998), a Hard Rock Cafe (opened July 4, 1997), a multi-story Barnes & Noble, a Gold's Gym, and loft offices. Maryland Art Place, a contemporary art gallery for Maryland artists, is located in the northwest corner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_Street_Power_Plant


May 7, 2004 - Baltimore visitors center opens



The new Baltimore Visitors Center opened on May 7, 2004, to replace an old antiquated visitors center that was operated in a modified construction trailer. It is located in downtown Baltimore, Maryland, USA, on the Inner Harbor.

The Baltimore Visitors Center cost $4.5 million to construct and is 8,000 square feet (700 m²) in size. In its first year of operation (May 7, 2004 – May 7, 2005), the Baltimore Visitors Center attracted nearly 390,000 visitors, which exceeded BACVA's (Baltimore Area Convention and Visitors Association) original estimate of 250,000. Visitors to the Baltimore Visitors Center in its first year of operation, booked 422 hotel rooms, worth $48,296 and bought 14,942 tickets worth about $223,286.

Inside the Baltimore Visitors Center are racks of brochures with information ranging from Baltimore's neighborhoods to major attractions, including the Maryland Science Center, the National Aquarium in Baltimore, Power Plant Live!, Camden Yards Sports Complex, and Geppi's Entertainment Museum. There is also a 50-seat theater that shows an 11-minute film on Baltimore and Maryland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Visitors_Center


1981 - Pier Six Outdoor Concert Pavilion



The Pier Six Concert Pavilion is a music venue in Baltimore's Inner Harbor. It is home to the Cavalier Telephone Pavilion, an outdoor concert area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_6_Concert_Pavilion




Lockwood Place, a mixed-use project on Pratt St. between Market Pl. and Gay St. featuring Best Buy, Filene's Basement, Panera Bread, Famous Footwear, and P.F. Chang's; the Ritz Carlton Residences, a condominium project on Key Hwy.


Inner Harbor - Jacksonville Waterfront similarities

The redevelopment of the Inner Harbor has been a +30 year process.  However, few may realize, that Downtown Jacksonville's redevelopment of its urban riverfront has lasted just as long.  Furthermore, many of the attractions that make the Inner Harbor a special place, have also been constructed in Jacksonville over the same period.

1.
Baltimore: Maryland Science Center - 1976
Jacksonville: Museum of Science and History (MOSH) - 1969

2.
Baltimore: World Trade Center - 1977
Jacksonville: Independent Square - 1974

3.
Baltimore: Baltimore Convention Center - 1979
Jacksonville: Prime Osborn Convention Center - 1985

4.
Baltimore: Harbor Place - 1980
Jacksonville: The Jacksonville Landing - 1987

5.
Baltimore: National Aquarium - 1981
Jacksonville: Times Union Center for the Performing Arts - 1997

*-Jacksonville does not have an aquarium and Baltimore does not have a performing arts center in the Inner Harbor.

6.
Baltimore: Pier Six Concert Pavilion - 1981
Jacksonville: Metropolitan Park - 1984

7.
Baltimore: Pratt Street Power Plant - 1997 (1985 - 1989 An Indoor Six Flags Amusement Park)
Jacksonville: Southside Generation Station (decommissioned in 2001 and demolished)


Although the Inner Harbor and Jacksonville's riverfront share many similarities, connectivity is not one of them.  Because of the tendency for Jacksonville to stretch development, instead of focusing on creating a compact walkable center, our waterfront has not achieved the same level of success that the Inner Harbor has enjoyed.


































Baltimore Inner Harbor - Jacksonville Downtown Riverfront contrasts: Connectivity and Clustering

Metro Jacksonville has been a longtime advocate of connectivity and clustering complementing uses together because this tends to stimulate vibrant pedestrian activity, which in turn, spurs more critical mass development.  Both Baltimore and Jacksonville have made similar investments along their waterfront over the last 40 years.  However, Jacksonville's continued tendency to spread things out has led to a downtown scene that still lacks connectivity, which in turn, makes it more difficult to stimulate pedestrian synergy and infill between these major uses.

Baltimore Inner Harbor Aerial



Jacksonville Downtown Riverfront Aerial



Scaled aerials indicate that Baltimore's Inner Harbor would cover portions of the North and Southbanks between the Acosta Bridge and Berkman Plaza.  On foot, what seems like a large vibrant waterfront district in Baltimore, would take up one third of Downtown Jacksonville's waterfront.



Images of nearby Baltimore Inner City Neighborhoods

Downtown City Center

Quote
Downtown Baltimore is the section of Baltimore traditionally bounded by Martin Luther King, Jr. Boulevard to the west, Mt. Royal Avenue to the north, President Street to the east and the Inner Harbor area to the south. It consists of four neighborhoods: Westside, City Centre, Inner Harbor, and Camden Yards. It is the focal point of business in the Baltimore metropolitan area with over 100,000 employees. It has also increasingly become a heavily populated neighborhood with over 37,000 residents and new condominiums and apartment homes being built steadily.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Baltimore
















A downtown ambassador escorting the homeless out of the Inner Harbor area.


Old parking meters are used for the "Make a Change" program.  This program encourages people to "put their change where they can make one" by giving to charitable organizations instead of panhandlers.





Restaurants with sidewalk seating and a light rail station between the convention center and convention center hotel.









Fells Point

Quote
Fell's Point is home to a variety of shops, restaurants, coffee bars, music stores, and over 120 pubs. Located on the harbor and famous for its maritime past, it now boasts the greatest concentration of pubs/bars in the city. This waterfront community is a much-visited location in Baltimore, accessible by water taxi, freeway, and several bus lines. The neighborhood has also been the home of large Polish, Irish, and Mexican-American populations throughout its history. In recent years a steadily increasing numbers of middle to upper middle income residents have moved into the area, driving up property values. Fell's Point is one of several areas in and around Baltimore that are listed on the National Register of Historic Districts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fells_Point,_Baltimore













Little Italy

Quote
Situated just east of the Inner Harbor, it has one of the city's popular restaurant districts.  It is so named because of the large number of Italian immigrant families that moved into the area during the 20th century. The neighborhood is still home to a large and active Italian ethnic community. Located near newly desirable neighborhoods like Fells Point, Upper Fells Point and Harbor East, Little Italy's housing market is very hot, not least because turnover is low in the tight-knit community. Little Italy is also notable as one of the safest neighborhoods in the city of Baltimore, as the neighborhood's reputation is such to not allow crimes against the residents caused by outside agitators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Italy,_Baltimore












Jonestown

Quote
Jonestown is a historical section of southeast Baltimore established in 1732 that was laid out on 10 acres (40,000 m2) dived into twenty lots on the east side of the Jones Falls. The district is a mix of industrial, commercial and residential buildings. In the last half of the 20th century, Jonestown has shifted from a predominantly Eastern European and Jewish neighborhood into a predominantly African American neighborhood. Public housing replaced many of the former rowhomes and townhouses throughout the area, though a historical presence is still felt. In the early 2000s, though, modern row housing resembling suburban townhouses replaced the public housing. Jonestown is home to Baltimore's central post office in addition to 8 Baltimore City Landmarks including the Flag House and the Phoenix Shot Tower, both Registered National Historic Landmarks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown,_Baltimore









Federal Hill

Federal Hill lies just south of downtown and the Inner Harbor.  The neighborhood's name comes from a hill within its borders.

Quote
From early in the history of the city, the hill was a public gathering place and civic treasure. The hill itself was given the name in 1789 after serving as the location for the end of a parade and a following civic celebration of the ratification of the new "Federal" constitution of the United States of America. For much of the early history of Baltimore, the hill was know as Signal Hill because it was home to a maritime observatory serving the merchant and shipping interests of the city by observing the sailing of ships up the Patapsco River and signalling their impending arrival to downtown businesspeople.

In the 20th century, Federal Hill was a working class neighborhood characterized by increasing crime, racial tension, depressed property values, and a decaying housing stock.  With the successful redevelopment of the Inner Harbor over the past few decades, Federal Hill has become a hotbed of investment and rehabilitation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Hill,_Baltimore















Mount Vernon

Quote
Mount Vernon is located just north of downtown. Designated a National Landmark Historic District and a city Cultural District, it is one of the city's oldest neighborhoods and originally was home to the city's most wealthy and fashionable families. The name derives from the Mount Vernon home of George Washington; the original Washington Monument, a massive pillar commenced in 1815 to commemorate the first president of the United States, is the defining feature of the neighborhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon,_Baltimore















Baltimore Bonus: Hampden

Similar in style and character to Jacksonville's Five Points, Hampden is located in northwestern Baltimore.

Quote
Hampden was originally settled as a residential community for workers at the mills that sprung up along the Jones Falls; its first residents were in place well before the area was annexed to Baltimore City in 1888. Many of its residents came to the area from the hill country of Kentucky, West Virginia, and western Pennsylvania, looking for work in the mills. This influx cemented the image of the neighborhood for the decades that followed as a white, working-class, socially conservative enclave. However, like most of Baltimore, Hampden declined somewhat during the economic troubles of the 1980s-90s, and is a much more moderate political climate in recent history.

In the 1990s the neighborhood, conveniently located vis-a-vis Johns Hopkins and downtown, and relatively safe when compared to other, more blighted areas of the city, was discovered by artists and other bohemians, who began the process of gentrification. Many of these artists were attracted by the 1987 creation of an artist studio and office space known as the Mill Centre, located in the southernmost region of Hampden between Falls Road and Mill Road. Over the past decade, housing prices in Hampden have skyrocketed, and the area's commercial center on a four block stretch of West 36th Street known as The Avenue, has seen trendy boutiques and restaurants occupy storefronts that had become vacant when poor economic conditions forced many of the Avenue's traditional retailers to close.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampden,_Baltimore










Baltimore Photo Tour by Ennis Davis


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» 30 Comments

Keith-N-Jax

July 30, 2009, 05:38:20 AM

Well I've got to get to Baltimore and check out their Aquarium. I would like to see the difference between theirs and the Ga Aquarium. Oh and let me be the first to welcome the run to the defense of Jax crew we have on here. This has nothing to do with density and population. With proper planning and vision IT CAN BE ACOMPLISHED on a small, medium, or large scale which ever applies. Jax has neither. I guess we will see what the future holds for us in the years to come. Anyway cant wait to visit this CITY!!!

Keith-N-Jax

July 30, 2009, 05:44:15 AM

On that Jacksonville aerial that doesnt even include the shipyards, old jea site, or metro park. Just think of what could be or maybe will be in time.

archiphreak

July 30, 2009, 08:12:07 AM

I've been to Balitmore.  It's GORGEOUS.  The Power Plant is a concentration of night clubs and bars.  It's packed most nights of the week.  The Barnes and Noble is MASSIVE.  3 floors (i think) of books and a coffee shop...it rocks.  Little Italy has some of the best Italian food I've ever had.  Jonestown is amazing also.  And it's all within easy biking distance (maybe not walking but biking surely).  Jacksonville could learn a REAL lesson from a city like Baltimore.  Years ago the downtown was worse than our Urban Core.  Crime, drugs, prostitutes, you name it they had it.  It was worse than a ghost town it was a cesspool festering and rotting.  Now, it's on it's to the top of the Urban food chain.

tufsu1

July 30, 2009, 09:12:33 AM

The Inner Harbor is a great public space and the original planners (WRT out of Philly) really understood connectivity and how to maximize tourism opportunities.

That said, I might suggest that people take a walk north of the Inner Harbor into the downtown.  Growing up there, I used to think that there were hardly any homeless people in Baltimore.  However, while working in downtown one summer, I learned that they just shoo them away from the Inner Harbor....and much of the rest of their downtown is as desolate as Jax.

Keith-N-Jax

July 30, 2009, 09:21:55 AM

With a water front like that, dont need much else.

copperfiend

July 30, 2009, 09:27:43 AM

I spent some time in Baltimore in 2006. The inner harbor area is a cool area and the aquarium is amazing. I wish we had something like that here. The weekend I was there all of the restaurants in the area were packed. It was a great atmosphere.

Deuce

July 30, 2009, 09:54:46 AM

Quote
downtown is as desolate as Jax

It was at one time but most of the Neighborhoods surrounding downtown have been gentrified and it's spreading outward. Places as far east as Canton are becoming like Fells Point.

brainstormer

July 30, 2009, 10:10:08 AM

It now makes sense.  When I was there in 2008, I thought they were building a new convention center, but it was actually a huge hotel next to the convention center.  I love how vibrant and bustling Baltimore looks during the day.  Does anyone on here know what sparked and funded their downtown revitalization?  How did they attract so many developers and national retailers/restaurants?  Which came first, residences or attractions?  What sorts of incentives did the city give out?  Do they utilize TIF districts?  Baltimore is one of those cities that our own city government could really learn a lot from because we have many physical similarities as well as a history of neglect in the urban core.

hooplady

July 30, 2009, 10:22:01 AM

My hometown!!!  And it's pronounced Bawlamer.  As in "Welcome t' Bawlamer, Hon!"

Brainstormer, it didn't happen overnight.  For awhile the only thing downtown was Harborplace, but with each addition it got stronger.  I think the tipping point arrived with Camden Yards, then Ravens Stadium.  There were also grants for renovating row homes 30 years ago - buy a rotting shell from the city for $1 and commit to investing a certain amount into the renovation.  There's also a great light rail system that runs all the way from the airport, through downtown, and to the northern suburbs.

Also, keep in mind that Baltimore City has a completely separate government from Baltimore County, so when their residents move out it's just like when Duval residents move to St. Johns.  Baltimore City couldn't afford to drag its heels - if they didn't take action 20 years ago, they'd already be dead.

brainstormer

July 30, 2009, 10:47:13 AM

Thanks Hoop for the info!  With all of this talk lately about taxes and the city budget mess and the failure of our inner city areas, I am coming to a realization.  I think consolidation of Jacksonville with Duval County not only killed the inner neighborhoods, but also is now preventing us from making progress. 
Most other progressive cities rely on their own tax rates and government to create the vision to move forward.  For example, I'm sure people within the city of Baltimore pay higher taxes than those who live on the outskirts of the county.  They choose to pay those higher taxes though because they have a wonderful quality of life living in the city.  With mass transit and walkable neighborhoods they don't have commuting costs and perhaps not having a car makes up for the higher taxes.
In Jacksonville, because of consolidation, our government is trying to please the folks who live off Kings Road near the Nassau Line (those who want dirt roads, no taxes, and don't read books) with those who live downtown and in Springfield.  We want open libraries, mass transit so we can ditch the car, parks we can enjoy, Jazz Festivals, streets that are clean, etc.  Most of us would pay higher taxes to have all of those things.
I'm at the point where I don't think this city will ever make progress and change until something is done about the consolidation.  Will it ever be possible to find a way to make myself and Mr. Redneck both happy?  Could we think out of the box and perhaps create a way to ensure that districts receive the money they pay in taxes back into their districts?  Those who pay low taxes in the country can keep their dirt roads but those in the core who have higher assessments want Laura Street repaved and better parks (just an example).  How can a consolidated government covering a land mass as huge as Duval County allow for all kinds of folks to live peacefully together and be happy?  The city of Baltimore did it, so why aren't we on the same level?

Captain Zissou

July 30, 2009, 11:04:09 AM

I may agree with brainstormer.  I do agree in that I think the residents barely within the county line should not be given the attention that is given to those in the core. 
I think a bigger problem is the dual CBD's we have between Southpoint and DT.  If you took a quarter of the workers from southpoint and point them in brooklyn or DT, how much better would that be for the core?  I know rooftops would be even better, but until DT starts to win out over the southside, I'm not sure how much the core will grow.

Ocklawaha

July 30, 2009, 11:49:19 AM

Is every venue in Jacksonville copied from somewhere else? Are we guilty of making smaller copies of what some other City has designed then plopping it down without a thought to how it may or may not fit into a connected plan.

Quote
1.
Baltimore: Maryland Science Center - 1976
Jacksonville: Museum of Science and History (MOSH)
- 1969, which would fit nicely within the restrooms of the Baltimore Science Museum

Quote
2.
Baltimore: World Trade Center - 1977
Jacksonville: Independent Square - 1974 -
BIG DEAL, they have a "World Trade Center" and we have an office building.
Quote
3.
Baltimore: Baltimore Convention Center - 1979
Jacksonville: Prime Osborn Convention Center -
1985 - Lack of vision has left us with a meeting hall for the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Quote
4.
Baltimore: Harbor Place - 1980
Jacksonville: The Jacksonville Landing - 1987 -
Just another copy cat building, too small, no parking and not connected even to Laura Street

Quote
5.
Baltimore: National Aquarium - 1981
Jacksonville: Times Union Center for the Performing Arts - 1997 -
Sitting on land better used for commercial development, we do have an aquarium, theres a guy on the Southside that raises pond catfish

*-Jacksonville does not have an aquarium and Baltimore does not have a performing arts center in the Inner Harbor
.

Quote
6.
Baltimore: Pier Six Concert Pavilion - 1981
Jacksonville: Metropolitan Park - 1984 -
  Who else would put all of their eggs in a park that's 2 miles from the action and under a freeway viaduct?

Quote
7.
Baltimore: Pratt Street Power Plant - 1997 (1985 - 1989 An Indoor Six Flags Amusement Park)
Jacksonville: Southside Generation Station (decommissioned in 2001 and demolished),
Actually we had the streetcar barns, and across the street the power plant and streetcar school and office building, HAD being the key word here.

OCKLAWAHA

vicupstate

July 30, 2009, 12:25:28 PM

I think consolidation of Jacksonville with Duval County not only killed the inner neighborhoods, but also is now preventing us from making progress. 

I'm at the point where I don't think this city will ever make progress and change until something is done about the consolidation. 

This red herring appears every so often, and it needs to stop.  It is a illogical excuse to continue down the road of mediocrity.

Indianapolis
Norfolk
Nashville

Are all consolidated, and have great Downtowns.

Charlotte, San Antonio, Dallas also have cover huge swaths of suburban territory, yet also have a great core.

Consolidation is a HUGE advantage and strength. It is not leveraged to it's fullest benefit, IMO, but it is NOT the issue here.

Having vision, a plan that utilizes good urban design, and the political will to enact it, are what is missing.  It is not now, nor has it ever been consolidation.   

And those inner core neighborhoods were already down and out in 1968 when consolidation took place.

thelakelander

July 30, 2009, 12:49:52 PM

I may agree with brainstormer.  I do agree in that I think the residents barely within the county line should not be given the attention that is given to those in the core. 
I think a bigger problem is the dual CBD's we have between Southpoint and DT.  If you took a quarter of the workers from southpoint and point them in brooklyn or DT, how much better would that be for the core?  I know rooftops would be even better, but until DT starts to win out over the southside, I'm not sure how much the core will grow.

I agree with Vic.  I could jump on board with viewing consolidation as a negative on the urban core but Indianapolis, Louisville and Nashville paint a different picture.  They are three examples of cities that have still managed to have vibrant "clustered" urban growth, while still dealing with suburban districts just as large and popular as the Southside.  I consider consolidation a plus.  To me, the issue appears to be a continued lack of coordinated long term planning and implementation (Metro Park redevelopment schedule as proof).  Because of this, Jacksonville is a modern day Frankenstein.  Our landscape remains filled with a mix of critical components that fail to work with their immediate surroundings or combine to form a sustainable vibrant district.  If there is one thing we can take from the Inner Harbor, it should be the coordination and placement of the projects, in relation to other attractions already in place.

tufsu1

July 30, 2009, 02:45:01 PM

To echo the comments above, consolidatio has generally been a positrive for Jax.

For example, take a look at Baltimore City's population...at one point (just after 1950 I believe), it was around 1 million people....and in now its barely more than 600,000...and its still going down.

Just imagine the fiscal condition Baltimore would be in without the influx of revenue that is generated by the Inner Harbor!

tufsu1

July 30, 2009, 04:04:20 PM

Here's some info. on a potential LRT expansion in B'More

http://www.planetizen.com/node/39938

Gen7

July 30, 2009, 04:09:08 PM

In reading the public e-mail boxes on the property tax debate, many people have voiced a willingness to pay more, just not in the form of property tax.  They want it spread around to renters and visitors, etc.  Since it is less efficient and more costly to provide services to the suburbs, perhaps an "Extended Service Fee" could be instituted.  Define the center of the county and create ever widening circles.  Homes, renters (not landlords), businesses (each storefront), non-profits all pay a flat fee depending on how far out they are from the center, 5 to 10 miles, 10 to 15 miles, 15 to 20 miles.  The inner circle, 0 to 5 miles, would be the "Redevelopment Zone" and would not pay the fee.  However, there would be a .01 sales tax in the "Redevelopment Zone" for capital improvements and mass transit (streetcars!).   Add to that permitting penalties or a moratorium on development in the suburbs and property tax incentives in the "Redevelopment Zone" (i.e. freeze property values for a time on new development) and perhaps people and businesses would be incentivized to return downtown. 

JaxNative68

July 30, 2009, 04:17:20 PM

the big difference is that baltimore hasn't turned its back on the downtown area.  I would like to see a population census of buisness and residences within the downtown area.  Also there is a lot of cities within a short drive of baltimore (wash dc, philly, fredrick, alexandria, arlington, annapolis, etc.) all of which are very dense/populated cities.

if jax didn't avoid the downtown area and actually promoted business and attractions to move there, jax could be more successful than baltimore.

even though the population of baltimore is declining (due to people moving to the surrounding small towns) the city is still investing in the downtown core due to business and tourism.

tufsu1

July 30, 2009, 04:47:42 PM

Jaxnative...I wish your statement that "Jax could be more successful than Baltimore" were true....but there's more at play than just one city vs. the other.

Maryland is a very progressive state and the two most effective Governors of recent time were first the Mayor of Baltimore (Schaeffer and O'Malley)....Baltimore is the big boy in the state (just look at the state seal included on the Orioles and Ravens uniforms) and the metro area has always been given the lion's share of state funds.

I don't see how this could ever happen in Florida, where we have 25+ metropolitan areas....and Jacksonville is # 6 behind Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, West Palm, Orlando, and Tampa....plus all the $ that gets sent to the rural areas.

Even Georgia does it better....they spend tons of money in the rural areas, but its to appease the people who think all the money gets spent in Atlanta!
 

hooplady

July 30, 2009, 04:59:02 PM

To respond to JaxNative, I did find this study which says:
"By the end of 2005, there were more than 37,000 people living in Downtown (an area defined as being within a one-mile radius of Pratt and Light streets)."

http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com/images/upload/8/pdf/outlook_2012.pdf

...and about a quarter of that one-mile radius is water.  I wonder if they counted the marina? Smiley

thelakelander

July 30, 2009, 05:22:33 PM

Baltimore is no NYC or Chicago, but like DC, you can pack a lot of people into a compact area with rowhouses.

brainstormer

July 30, 2009, 05:29:04 PM

I get a little annoyed when people complain about renters not paying property taxes.  You are right, we don't pay them directly to the city, but our rent certainly covers the cost of taxes on the property billed to the landlord.  Why do you think rents are higher in nicer places?  I guarantee you the Strand pays a great deal in property taxes and the owner passes this on to the renters through very expensive rent payments.  

Gen7

July 30, 2009, 06:22:17 PM

You know that and I know that, but apparently J. Q. Public doesn't know that.  Read the public e-mail boxes and see how many people are complaining that only homeowners pay property tax!  Renters (in complexes) were also paying solid waste fees long before homeowners got a separate bill and I'm certain that landlords are passing along the stormwater fee.  And yet, a common remark is "I'll sell my house and just rent - there's no advantage to homeownership!" Apparently building equity, $50,000 exemptions, income tax deductions and a set mortgage payment that ends in 20 - 30 years are disadvantages in their world.

brainstormer

July 30, 2009, 07:21:45 PM

Sorry Gen7, my rant shouldn't have been directed at you.  I reread what you said and you were merely relaying the ignorance you hear and read.  Since everyone on here is informed and rationale, I guess my rant has little purpose.  So here's to being educated!  Grin

krazeeboi

August 01, 2009, 06:09:15 PM

I think Baltimore is an underrated city that definitely has lots to offer, as this tour has shown. They've done a lot right; however, everything there isn't peaches and cream. Any of you guys ever seen the HBO series "The Wire"? There's a level of urban decay in Baltimore that Jacksonville, thankfully, has never known.

thelakelander

August 01, 2009, 06:17:02 PM

Very true.  You get outside of the Inner Harbor and the surrounding waterfront urban districts and it goes down real quick.

JaxNative68

August 03, 2009, 05:58:54 PM

for a while Baltimore rivaled to be one of the heroin capitals of the US.  which was the leading factor to their urban decay.

Omarvelous09

August 03, 2009, 08:01:22 PM

Baltimore? Never been a fan of this city.. Jacksonville is a lot prettier, and cleaner in my opinion.  Undecided

CrysG

August 04, 2009, 07:47:18 AM

I just wanted to point out that Baltimore does have a performing art's center. France-Merrick Performing Arts Center is only .3 miles farther away from the Inner Harbor than the Metropolitan Park is from the Landing.


sheclown

August 04, 2009, 09:12:44 PM

I grew up in Northern Virginia and remember Baltimore as a very scary place that EVERYONE avoided. It was more fearful to travel through Baltimore than Southeast DC -- and that is saying a lot.  The first thing I remember changing was the Chesapeake getting cleaned up.  There was a lot of excitement about the $1.00 houses (DC was doing the same thing -- this must have been in the 70s).  All of a sudden, after the aquarium was built, people began to venture up there, excited by the pioneer spirit of it all and stayed.

In the past couple of years, Strider and I have spent some time in Fells Point.  I adore Baltimore and would live there if I could swing it.  It is a vibrant, working class city, full of fun. 

Fells Point really kicked it in gear when the city wanted to plow through the neighborhood for a highway.  The neighbors got together and filed a law suit against the city to prevent it.  They started an arts festival to raise money to pay for legal fees.  I think that was 20 years ago.  They still have the festival and they don't have a highway running through it.

Thanks for running the piece on Baltimore.  It is a great city and Jax could learn much from it.
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