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reednavy
January 08, 2009, 05:08:51 AMF*ck, here come the jokes to Jacksonville.
vicupstate
January 08, 2009, 05:41:17 AMOral Explosion.... in a old strip club location. I'm guessing they are seeking a male dominated consumer base?? It certainly takes 'have it your way' to a new level.
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 07:42:33 AMYeah, no kidding. How funny/ironic/embarassing.
KenFSU
January 08, 2009, 08:17:38 AMMaybe they should develop a partnership with The Cummer?
archiphreak
January 08, 2009, 08:35:30 AMThe stripclub building was torn down and San Marco is now getting a genuine piece of Modern Architecture to brag about. Instead of making moronic jokes why don't you all hail these young Architects for doing GOOD WORK in Jacksonville. It is certainly few and far between enough to garner praise from every reasonably intelligent person in this city. We bitch day in and day out about all the crappy design and short sited buildings that go up in this city at an alarming rate, and now when faced with a well designed, well thought, attractive infill for what was once one of the nastiest strip clubs in town, you crack jokes and say it's "embarrassing"? WTF!!??
fsujax
January 08, 2009, 08:38:53 AMI am happy to see this and I think the architecture is great. I wonder what types of fast food will be available? we need a McDonalds somewhere closer to the core than Emerson and I-95 or 8th St and I-95!
Doctor_K
January 08, 2009, 08:42:06 AMLighten up, Arch! Lord knows we're all excited for something new and different, architecturally speaking, like this. But you have to admit the best comedy is written in real life. I'm pretty sure people aren't embarassed over the replacement of a strip club. Sheesh.
On a different note, my first question is actually this: What are the building's schematics in regard to setbacks, offering a more urbanesque versus suburban layout and design, and other such considerations? Or any of the other things that are championed on this site?
While Archiphreak makes a good point, are we cheering another piece of suburban/exurban commercial real estate, surrounded by parking lots and a half-mile away from the main thoroughfare?
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 08:42:47 AMMaybe we just appreciate the irony more than you do. I doubt that many people who post on this site will have nothing but good things to say about this development.
civil42806
January 08, 2009, 08:53:15 AMwwanderlust
January 08, 2009, 09:08:54 AMFirst, let me say that I agree with some of what you said. But I personally don't find this building well-designed, well-thought, or attractive.
I'll be the first to admit that such criticisms are a matter of taste and can't be quantified, so for those that think this is a good development...you're entitled to that opinion, and I can't say that you're right or wrong.
It just seems like a bland, generic box. Another example of the joyless, despotic approach to building design that seems to have taken this country by storm. (James Howard Kuntsler would call this a building "designed like a DVD player".)
cline
January 08, 2009, 09:18:20 AMWhile the building itself seems well done (architecturally speaking), the site design seems pretty poor. Walls on most sides that do not allow for much street level interaction. In a sense, it reminds me of the downtown library in which the building is a fantastic design by Robert A.M. Stern but, as has been mentioned on this site previously, the interactions the building has with the street leave a lot to be desired. It could have been so much more.
That said, it's good to see some positive development in the area.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 09:32:51 AMLol, lighten up. I'm sure the architects were paid well for their work, and I doubt they're relying on praise from us to prevent them from taking their pencil and drafting paper and crying all the way home.
And anytime someone names a place "Oral Explosion", they're literally ASKING for people to crack jokes. I'm 110% sure it's part of their business plan. When someone says "Hey, have you heard about this new place...ORAL EXPLOSION...bahahaha", then guess what? You've just heard about the place, and it cost the owner $0 in advertising dollars to spread the word. Us talking and cracking jokes is exactly what they hope they will occur.
stug
January 08, 2009, 09:38:45 AMGoogle oral explosions and you'll find that oralexplosions.com is a porn website, FYI.
So, archiphreak, are people still moronic for acknowledging the obvious innuendo?
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 09:51:37 AMWhile Archiphreak makes a good point, are we cheering another piece of suburban/exurban commercial real estate, surrounded by parking lots and a half-mile away from the main thoroughfare?
The difference is the design of the building and it's layout on the site.
1. There is no setback between the building and the sidewalk along San Marco Blvd.
2. Parking will be available behind in the rear of the building.
3. Existing parallel parking spaces in front of the building will be retained.
4. Although the site is small, the building's large glass windows help expose what's happening on the inside, with the adjacent area (embraces the sidewalk and pass by traffic, as opposed to being a blank wall).
5. The design is also flexible. In the event that every single restaurant fails, this structure could easily be converted into an office building. This would not be so, if the common dining area happened to be outside.
If the average Jacksonville development incorporated most of these principles, Jacksonville would be a walkable city.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 10:04:32 AMWhile the building itself seems well done (architecturally speaking), the site design seems pretty poor. Walls on most sides that do not allow for much street level interaction. In a sense, it reminds me of the downtown library in which the building is a fantastic design by Robert A.M. Stern but, as has been mentioned on this site previously, the interactions the building has with the street leave a lot to be desired. It could have been so much more.
That said, it's good to see some positive development in the area.
Looking at the plan, the south side is a wall because that's the side of an existing building. The west is a wall because that's the back of the site and dumpster area. All the glass faces San Marco Blvd (east wall) and Nira Street (north wall). The common dining area abuts the sides of the building that will be seen from the streets and sidewalks. The windows, facing the sidewalk, are large enough for the building's interior activities to still engage and attract the average pedestrian (The library does not do this). On top of this, the main entrance forces people to use the sidewalks along these streets to get in. While the developer picked a funny name for the project, the architectural design is pretty solid, imo.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 10:15:31 AMJacksonville will never be a walking city until the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments. If you compare JAX to the US cities where its actually easier to walk than to have a car, like Charleston, Boston, New York, or San Francisco, you will find a common theme: The lack of sprawl issues like we have here. Everywhere you need to go is contained within an urban base of a few square miles, and this is why walking works.
This city, on the other hand, is ridiculous. I put 16k+ miles a year on my vehicles, just driving around town. Until we get to the point where most of the places you need to go aren't a 15+ mile trip each way, then I'm afraid it's just never going to happen. And a second sub-issue here is that we also have no viable public transportation, which is another key to becoming a walking city. JTA's overloaded road-based system, where the buses are routinely 30+ minutes late and it takes 2 hours to get from Riverside to UNF, only caters to those who cannot afford cars. It is not a real public transport system, and nobody uses it unless they have to. At a minimum, these issues need to be addressed before you're going to have any real progress.
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 10:17:06 AMuntil the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments.Unfortunately, I think this is the truth.
RiversideGator
January 08, 2009, 10:21:42 AMChris: Move to Riverside/Avondale. You can go for weeks without having to drive out of the area.
As for the proposed building, it is complete garbage. Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly. This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well. The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.
RiversideGator
January 08, 2009, 10:23:02 AMuntil the sprawl problem gets addressed, which is probably going to mean de-consolidating local governments.Unfortunately, I think this is the truth.
Jacksonville is a walkable city if you are in the right neighborhoods. Hate suburbia? Dont go to the Southside. Live in Springfield, Riverside or downtown. You can bike or walk for most essentials in these neighborhoods.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 10:25:56 AMYou can still have a walkable core and horrid sprawl. Chicagoland is a great example. While Downtown Charleston may be walkable, the neck, North Charleston and Mount Pleasant aren't. The difference between Jax and Charleston is suburbs like North Charleston would be within our actual city limits. Once we get over the fact that Jacksonville is really a city with suburbs all wrapped up in one, enhancing walkability in the old city isn't as hard as it seems. The old city was once walkable, but a ton of buildings have been torn down and replaced with suburban structures and parking lots over the last 50 years. If every development in the core had to be designed with the priniciples incorporated in this Oral Explosion project, the core would indeed eventually become walkable again.
Images of a walkable Jacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/783/120/
The Compound
January 08, 2009, 10:28:00 AMWill there be an Oral Explosion with Five Guys?
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 10:28:13 AMAs for the proposed building, it is complete garbage. Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly. This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well. The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.
Its already under construction.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 10:35:36 AMAs for the proposed building, it is complete garbage. Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly. This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well. The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.
Oh I love Riverside, I've lived here for years, I'm over on Cherry Street. But I still have to get school, which is over off Baymeadows, and I have to go to the car wash, have to go out of the neighborhood to buy clothes or go to the mall, visit friends, etc. This is the most spread-out city I've ever been to, the only thing that comes close is L.A., but then they have 13 times our population so you can almost understand it. It's really mind-boggling how unnecessarily spread out this place is. I'm in Boston a lot, and they have 3/4ths of Duval County's population living in 1/20th of the area, and it doesn't feel crowded at all.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 10:43:29 AMIf you took that drive from Riverside to Baymeadows in Tampa, you would end up in St. Petersburg or Temple Terrace. If it were in Miami, you might end up in Miami Beach, Hialeah or Aventura, depending on your direction. Jacksonville is only "large" land-wise because it is consolidated with Duval County.
If we take away the imaginary municipal limit lines, metro Boston sprawls up into New Hampshire. Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando basically run together now with leap frog development. Atlanta takes up a significant chunk of North Georgia. There's now a continuous line of sprawl development that links Cincinnati with Dayton. Jacksonville's sprawl is no different from what happened to the majority of America's cities once auto travel became dominant. We just don't have a dominant core like many of the older, larger cities do.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 10:45:35 AMThe difference is you don't HAVE to go to any of those suburbs. You may choose to for one reason or another, such as lower housing prices, but if you already live downtown then travel to the suburbs is not a necessity. In both charleston and chicago, you have countless options for obtaining anything at all that you might need without ever having to leave the urban core, and with the exception of housing, without having to pay a premium for it. That's a key.
In Jacksonville, there is no neighborhood where you can ever get everything you would need in daily life without getting into a car and having to drive long distances. It's just the way this place is laid out.
Steve
January 08, 2009, 10:52:17 AMIt's not the layout, it's the ammenities in the urban core - they just aren't here like the burbs. If I want to go clothes shopping, 5 Points, San Marco, and Avondale have some great boutiqies stuff, but If I want to do major shopping, I'm going to the beltway. Same goes for electronics (for the 6 people these days who are actually buying consumer electronics).
Chicago is a good example, as mentioned before. They have some of the worst planned burbs, but if I live in the city (not just in downtown), I can find what I need in town (except IKEA)
wwanderlust
January 08, 2009, 10:54:01 AMPrecisely. I love being able to walk to the Riverside Publix, or sushi, or Starbucks...but if I want to shop for clothes, or electronics, or books, or just pick up some Thai or Indian food...I have to get in my car!
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 10:54:08 AMIf we take away the imaginary municipal limit lines, metro Boston sprawls up into New Hampshire. Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando basically run together now with leap frog development. Atlanta takes up a significant chunk of North Georgia. There's now a continuous line of sprawl development that links Cincinnati with Dayton. Jacksonville's sprawl is no different from what happened to the majority of America's cities once auto travel became dominant. We just don't have a dominant core like many of the older, larger cities do.
Yes, but none of that's the point. None of those you mentioned, except for Boston, is a "walking city". And I strongly disagree with your assessment of Boston's layout, as it really isn't a sprawl situation. The surrounding towns and cities are very socially unconnected with the city, and most people who live in Wakefield or Newton or Woburn actually live and work there. Each of those is a self-sufficient city in its own right, and many of them have been there as long as Boston itself.
A lot of people certainly commute, sure, mainly the types who have kids and want a yard, etc., but even then with the T system you've got trains running several times an hour that get you downtown in 15 minutes. You still don't need a car. It's really apples and oranges. And if you decide to live downtown, you don't have to leave it to go to the suburbs, though the suburbs may commute to downtown.
Again, there is no place you can live in Jacksonville and never have to drive long distances to do something or another. It doesn't exist. And tampa, orlando, etc., were never walking cities to begin with, and have the same typical florida sprawl problems. The frustrating thing about Jacksonville is, it had it and lost it.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 10:54:50 AMThere are thousands of people who live in Inner City Jax who don't have to travel to places like Baymeadows, Orange Park and Deerwood on a regular basis. By the same token, there are thousands of people who live in the burbs and commute to Downtown Charleston because they can't afford the historic district's housing costs, ditto for Boston. There are thousands more, that live in the city and have no reason to ever go downtown. It ultimately depends on your personal situation.
I agree, that urban Jax does not offer the same quality of life that one would get in a city with a vibrant urban core. This is where I believe we can improve the easiest. But it will take a change in zoning (the entire core needs to embrace the land design principles used by Oral Explosions).
Steve
January 08, 2009, 10:55:08 AMOn the note of the worst named eatery in Jacksonville, the building is not award winning, but not everyone will be. I'm not as concert with the materials used and it's archtectural qualities as how it meets the street.
I'd rather stucco crap that met the street well over something like Two Prudential Plaza or Independent Square, which might look great from the skyline, but terrible to someone walking on the sidewalk.
Joe
January 08, 2009, 10:59:55 AMFrom a landuse perspective, this project seems quite reasonable. (i.e. if I were a city councilman, planner, or activist I wouldn't have any legitimate objections to its construction).
However, from a standpoint of beauty and/or architecture, I certainly don't like it. It's quite bland, and I don't see anything "progressive" about it at all. It's just an inverted strip mall box with a trendy pseudo-contemporary industrial embellishment that probably won't age well at all.
Again, I have no interest in complaining about its construction. A project is a project, and that's great. But I scoff at the notion that this is great design. My apologies if the architect who designed this reads this forum, because for all I know, he doesn't have any pretenses about the design either. However, it's worth emphasizing that the crud some people call "progressive" is neither progressive, nor particularly welcomed by non-architects.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 11:00:13 AMI agree, that urban Jax does not offer the same quality of life that one would get in a city with a vibrant urban core. This is where I believe we can improve the easiest. But it will take a change in zoning (the entire core needs to embrace the land design principles used by Oral Explosions).
I call B.S. on the inner city lack of mobility. To the extent that it exists, which isn't much, it's only applicable to those who can't afford cars, and because public transportation is really not a viable option here for holding down a job. Most inner-city types, in my experience with renting to them, work for minimum wage in call centers, which are all located off Baymeadows/Southside. So I 100% disagree with your assessment on that one.
As to Charleston, sure downtown is expensive. So is San Fran, New York, Boston, or any other walking city. That isn't the point. The point is, you can easily live there without a car. I don't see where I said that suburbs don't exist, or that people won't commute from suburbs to a downtown. Of course that will happen, that's not the point. The point is, these places offer an urban lifestyle where don't need a car, and they don't have sprawl that requires even those living in urban areas to go somewhere else. To the extent that you want to analyze sprawl in walking cities, it revolves around people in the suburbs commuting downtown, not people in any area having to commute to other random areas in order to get anything done. There's a clear difference there, and I'm not sure why you're arguing this.
wwanderlust
January 08, 2009, 11:02:07 AMIf this building was multi-level and mixed use, I could get over the bland design...
cline
January 08, 2009, 11:06:10 AMYou are correct, you could easily live in these places without a car however, you can't ignore the affordability aspect. I'm sure there are many, many other people that would want to live in these environments but cannot afford it.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 11:17:14 AMThere are people right here on this site, that live in inner city neighborhoods and work in Downtown, the port or other businesses based in the urban core. Many of them don't have to travel to the burbs on a regular occassion.
My only point is that we can easily offer the same lifestyle by reconnecting our inner city neighborhoods with pedestrian friendly development (ie. Oral Explosions). However, this will never happen if we don't get to where we demand certain principles with every new project that comes online.
Because I don't agree.
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 11:25:34 AMTrue. But I have friends that live in Andersonville and they literally don't have to leave the neighborhood for anything.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 11:33:34 AMIt was once that way in Jax (The original city). It can be that way again. Neighborhoods like Riverside, Avondale, Springfield and San Marco are well on their way. We just have to work to better connect them with pedestrian friendly infill and attractive mass transit options.
stephendare
January 08, 2009, 11:39:31 AMLake and Chris are saying the same thing, it appears to me, just quibbling over semantic details that seem to be putting them at cross purposes.
Chris, we all agree that Jacksonville's urban core is not self contained and therefore not truly a 'walkable community'. It needs basic services in order to be that.
We also totally agree that the transit system is FUBAR and only serves the people desperate for transit who have no other choices.
We also all agree that the city planners intentionally choose road based sprawl causing transportation plans that impede rather than encourage the development of truly walkable communities.
In fact, Ennis is probably the most tireless advocate in the city of a transit plan based around tying transportation to recentralization
And Chris is entirely correct in the comparison of downtown to other urban cores.
But there are two seperate discussion happening which is confusing the issue.
Chris, there are actually a few other easily solved issues which are preventing the development of the urban and historic neighborhoods. They involve regulation, taxation, traffic design and 'investment' strategies.
Ennis is trying to make the point that a properly constituted transit plan that ties together San Marco, Riverside/Avondale/Five Points, Downtown and Springfield would create a super district that would be entirely self contained.
It would not be a walkable one, but it would be a manageble one, and compared to any other district in the city with the exception of the beaches, this Supercore district would be the most self contained, easiest densified and least overall expensive in which to reside because of the elimination of the auto as a requirement to live there.
Neither of you are disagreeing with each others points, you are simply not speaking to the same conversations.
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 11:45:57 AMIt was once that way in Jax (The original city). It can be that way again. Neighborhoods like Riverside, Avondale, Springfield and San Marco are well on their way. We just have to work to better connect them with pedestrian friendly infill and attractive mass transit options.
I would love to see it that way again. It's just frustrating seeing so many opportunities slip away.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 11:49:58 AMYes, I think the confusion may be on how to properly define Jacksonville. Although areas like Baymeadows may be within the consolidated limits, they are really suburbs based on their era of development, street layouts and development patterns. The city that existed before consolidation is what I consider to be the "city" and what I believe can be walkable and vibrant again. Here you have infrastructure in place that was built for double the population of what exists there today.
Using Boston as an example, Mandarin is Lowell, MA for all intents and purposes. A historic independent community that has been gobbled up by the larger city's sprawl. Old Jax (the city before 1968) is Boston with 50% of its building stock demolished and rail transit shut down.
If you want a vibrant city (Old Jax), we need to reconnect the neighborhoods with viable transit and make sure all infill development is built with urban principles in mind. Regardless of what people think about the architectural design, the layout is an example one incorporating the pedestrian friendly principles we need on a larger scale.
stephendare
January 08, 2009, 11:53:19 AMYes, I think the confusion may be on how to properly define Jacksonville. Although areas like Baymeadows may be within the consolidated limits, they are really suburbs based on their era of development, street layouts and development patterns. The city that existed before consolidation is what I consider to be the "city" and what I believe can be walkable and vibrant again. Here you have infrastructure in place that was built for double the population of what exists there today.
Using Boston as an example, Mandarin is Lowell, MA for all intents and purposes. A historic independent community that has been gobbled up by the larger city's sprawl. Old Jax (the city before 1968) is Boston with 50% of its building stock demolished and rail transit shut down.
If you want a vibrant city (Old Jax), we need to reconnect the neighborhoods with viable transit and make sure all infill development is built with urban principles in mind. Regardless of what people think about the architectural design, the layout is an example one incorporating the pedestrian friendly principles we need on a larger scale.
Hold onto that explanation Lake, its one of the best points (among many great ones) youve made in a while.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 12:17:51 PMYou are correct, you could easily live in these places without a car however, you can't ignore the affordability aspect. I'm sure there are many, many other people that would want to live in these environments but cannot afford it.
There's an offset that you're not considering, though. And it's that whatever you're paying in additional housing expense, you're probably saving on the back end by not having a car. You don't have to pay $2k/yr for insurance, you don't have a $300/mo car payment, you don't have to pay for maintenance, tires, oil changes, car washes, or $4/gallon gas.
That all goes a long way towards offsetting higher rents, and in all likelihood you may very well be saving money over living in the suburbs. Especially if you have a significant other, and would be otherwise a two-vehicle household. In most cases, I suspect it's actually more economical.
copperfiend
January 08, 2009, 12:18:37 PMYes, I think the confusion may be on how to properly define Jacksonville. Although areas like Baymeadows may be within the consolidated limits, they are really suburbs based on their era of development, street layouts and development patterns. The city that existed before consolidation is what I consider to be the "city" and what I believe can be walkable and vibrant again. Here you have infrastructure in place that was built for double the population of what exists there today.
Using Boston as an example, Mandarin is Lowell, MA for all intents and purposes. A historic independent community that has been gobbled up by the larger city's sprawl. Old Jax (the city before 1968) is Boston with 50% of its building stock demolished and rail transit shut down.
If you want a vibrant city (Old Jax), we need to reconnect the neighborhoods with viable transit and make sure all infill development is built with urban principles in mind. Regardless of what people think about the architectural design, the layout is an example one incorporating the pedestrian friendly principles we need on a larger scale.
Part of those 50% of buildings would include several colleges and universities.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 12:29:38 PMRight. There is no effort to prevent sprawl around here, and that carries over into education. The colleges and universities are all separated from each other by tens of miles, none of them are downtown or near any urban neighborhoods (they're all in the burbs), and none of them are anywhere near any kind of viable public transport. Having the law school and the med school move into any of the hundred vacant buildings downtown, or onto any of the hundred vacant blocks where stupid-azzed code enforcement has ripped down some nice 120yr old building, would have been a step in the right direction. But instead, the city made it so expensive that they went elsewhere, which made the sprawl even worse. Now I commute 17 miles each way to school, and my partner commutes 20 miles each way to UNF.
Sure I could live near the Baymeadows area, but it still wouldn't be walkable. I'd still have to get in the car and drive long distances to get anything done. This place is a mess, and until 1: The sprawl is addressed, and 2: We have some kind of viable public transport that runs on-time and doesn't take 2 hours to go 15 miles, then it's going to keep getting worse.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 12:36:16 PMEnnis is trying to make the point that a properly constituted transit plan that ties together San Marco, Riverside/Avondale/Five Points, Downtown and Springfield would create a super district that would be entirely self contained.
It would not be a walkable one, but it would be a manageble one, and compared to any other district in the city with the exception of the beaches, this Supercore district would be the most self contained, easiest densified and least overall expensive in which to reside because of the elimination of the auto as a requirement to live there.
I agree with that 100%.
The problem here is clearly horrendously bad planning by the self-interested local politicians who are mainly concerned with directing the population towards the areas where they own property (Mandarin/Southside/Gate Pkwy), and a total and utter lack of viable public transportation.
Personally, I think that stupid little train that they blew $2,000,000,000.00 (literally) on is probably the key to this. They need to expand it so it actually covers Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, Downtown, and JU and UNF. The Southside is never going to be a walking/public transport kind of place anyway, because it lacks the infrastructure for that.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 12:43:29 PMUsing Boston as an example, Mandarin is Lowell, MA for all intents and purposes. A historic independent community that has been gobbled up by the larger city's sprawl. Old Jax (the city before 1968) is Boston with 50% of its building stock demolished and rail transit shut down.
If you want a vibrant city (Old Jax), we need to reconnect the neighborhoods with viable transit and make sure all infill development is built with urban principles in mind. Regardless of what people think about the architectural design, the layout is an example one incorporating the pedestrian friendly principles we need on a larger scale.
The difference between Boston and JAX is that nobody just up and "forgot" downtown Boston.
Compare that to JAX. They've torn down 3/4ths of the buildings, and actively forced everyone out to the suburbs. After 5pm, downtown here is like something out of a sci-fi movie. It's nothing but cops and crackheads. The one or two bright spots, like the Pearl, the City is hell-bent on driving out of business. And every time someone comes and says "gee, I'd like to put a...(fill in the blank, Law School, Med School, University, whatever) downtown", the City figures out a way to run them off.
jacksonvilleconfidential
January 08, 2009, 12:47:34 PMHahahaha!!!! Best reply of the year so far IMO
JoeMerchant
January 08, 2009, 12:48:06 PMAs for the proposed building, it is complete garbage. Aside from the fact that it meets the street well, it is a one story building replacing a one story building (i.e. no more density) and is incredibly ugly. This style of "architecture" is unloved by the general populace and does not wear well. The whole structure, if built, is destined for the Trail Ridge landfill within 20 years or less IMO.
Laughable.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 12:49:23 PMHahahaha!!!! Best reply of the year so far IMO
Ya, that's a classic for sure.
JoeMerchant
January 08, 2009, 12:56:22 PMI would think most of the blame for the majority of bad designs in Jacksonville should be shouldered by the developers, not the architects.
I'd like to see the actual materials of this building before I pass judgment, if its a stucco box, I'll be unamused. But if the framing wall is an interesting material, it could actually turn out well.
Of course if you only like Mediterranean and clay tile roofs, or only pre-1930's architecture then I could see where you hate it.
Steve
January 08, 2009, 12:59:01 PMI'd love for my wife to respond to this. We are in the process of purchasing a house in riverside (under contract, mortgage approved, just waiting to close hopefully this month). My wife works at Fidelity. From our house, it's just outside of reasonable walking distance. However, if there was a streetcar, she'd ride it in a heartbeat (so long as it was a reliable transit method).
I can assure you, she is not a minimum wage call center employee - she is part of management.
Another example - the success of the Riverside Trolley at lunchtime. People use it quite a bit. This shows that if there is reliable transit in the core what runs from where people are to where they want to go, people would use it.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 01:05:03 PMI'd love for my wife to respond to this. We are in the process of purchasing a house in riverside (under contract, mortgage approved, just waiting to close hopefully this month). My wife works at Fidelity. From our house, it's just outside of reasonable walking distance. However, if there was a streetcar, she'd ride it in a heartbeat (so long as it was a reliable transit method).
I can assure you, she is not a minimum wage call center employee - she is part of management.
Another example - the success of the Riverside Trolley at lunchtime. People use it quite a bit. This shows that if there is reliable transit in the core what runs from where people are to where they want to go, people would use it.
The phrase "inner-city" has a specific meaning, and does not refer to financial analysts or whatnot who live in Riverside. I'm not trying to start another Riverside/San Marco vs. Springfield war, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you might be a little confused as to the meaning of that term.
Charleston native
January 08, 2009, 01:25:53 PMImages of a walkable Jacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/783/120/
Steve
January 08, 2009, 01:49:09 PMThis is kind of my point - "inner city" DOES include these neighborhoods. IMO, I think it basically includes all of the Old City Limits. I believe that we have to make our inner city transit system work with all neighborhoods (from Riverside to San Marco to Springfield to Durkeeville to Brentwood and beyond).
I think one of the problems with Jacksonville as a whole (sorry for stretching the topic a bit). Each neighborhood doesn't seem to work with the adjacent neighborhoods. Downtown doesn't work with Springfield, Springfield doesn't work with Downtown. Downtown doesn't work with Riverside. San Marco doesn't work with Downtown. Once we realize that we are one damn city, and that it all interweaves, we will be better off. This is one of the reasons connectivity is SO important BETWEEN neighborhoods.
(Stepping off of Soapbox now)
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 02:06:07 PMThis is kind of my point - "inner city" DOES include these neighborhoods. IMO, I think it basically includes all of the Old City Limits. I believe that we have to make our inner city transit system work with all neighborhoods (from Riverside to San Marco to Springfield to Durkeeville to Brentwood and beyond).
I think one of the problems with Jacksonville as a whole (sorry for stretching the topic a bit). Each neighborhood doesn't seem to work with the adjacent neighborhoods. Downtown doesn't work with Springfield, Springfield doesn't work with Downtown. Downtown doesn't work with Riverside. San Marco doesn't work with Downtown. Once we realize that we are one damn city, and that it all interweaves, we will be better off. This is one of the reasons connectivity is SO important BETWEEN neighborhoods.
(Stepping off of Soapbox now)
The phrase "Inner City" does not apply to San Marco and Riverside, and carries additional meaning beyond that which you are discussing...
Straight from the dictionary:
n.
The usually older, central part of a city, especially when characterized by crowded neighborhoods in which low-income, often minority groups predominate.
innercity in'ner-cit'y (ĭn'ər-sĭ'tē) adj.
Joe
January 08, 2009, 02:10:23 PMPerhaps you are the one who is confused? Riverside is certainly part of Jacksonville's inner-city. It's older and closer to the CBD than many of the Northside districts that are commonly called part of the inner-city too.
I certainly hope you aren't implying that "inner-city" means certain racial or economic classes of people. That tired old definition is an infuriating byproduct of sociology professors that somehow gained traction with the media.
edit: Obviously that is what you meant. Ugh. Using a geographic term to define someone's race or poverty is an abhorent and illogical practice. (i.e. "urban" to mean "black"). It might have traction in the media, but it has no place in an intelligent discussion of land use ... <rant over>
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 02:24:32 PMPerhaps you are the one who is confused? Riverside is certainly part of Jacksonville's inner-city. It's older and closer to the CBD than many of the Northside districts that are commonly called part of the inner-city too.
I certainly hope you aren't implying that "inner-city" means certain racial or economic classes of people. That tired old definition is an infuriating byproduct of sociology professors that somehow gained traction with the media.
edit: Obviously that is what you meant. Ugh. Using a geographic term to define someone's race or poverty is an abhorent and illogical practice. (i.e. "urban" to mean "black"). It might have traction in the media, but it has no place in an intelligent discussion of land use ... <rant over>
Quit shooting the messenger. That's not me implying anything. It's the actual meaning of the phrase.
I guess you should probably call up Webster's and rant at them, if this really annoys you so badly...
In the meantime, taking the phrase at its actual meaning, it's clearly not referring to San Marco and Riverside. And no, after this little interchange, I'm now especially certain that I'm not the one who's confused.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 02:26:51 PMWhat's the proper term for Riverside & San Marco? What would you suggest Jacksonville do to improve the urban core that includes these places, as well as the neighborhoods known as the inner city? Is it a lost cause?
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 02:29:13 PMGentrified.
Again, don't shoot the messenger. That's the proper demographic term.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 02:35:20 PMI'm not shooting the messenger. Is there a term that you would apply that includes the entire original city as one?
Do you think Jacksonville can make these neighborhoods places that won't require residents to drive into Baymeadows? If so, what are the steps that you believe the city should take?
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 02:38:04 PMYou edited your post after I replied to it, so to reply to the rest of it:
I've said what I believe the issues are that contribute to JAX's sprawl problem, which are horrendous urban planning by a small group of self-interested politicians, the virtual abandonment of downtown, and the lack of any viable public transportation system.
As to what to do to improve the "inner city" areas, which speaking accurately if not politically correctly, would be Springfield, Moncreif, etc., and not Riverside and San Marco, then if the City addresses any or all of the three things I've just identified, then I expect that would go a long way towards a symbiotic solution for these neighborhoods, as they are close to downtown.
But other than that, to a large extent this stuff happens on its own. It is slowly occurring in Springfield, and the other areas will take longer. But when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, this process is more an issue of one demographic group trickling out to other places and another group moving in from other places. And I hate to break it to you, but there's always going to be a "poor" or "inner city" or whatever other term you want to use, area of town. It's the nature of our economy and society. You can relocate people all you want, but at the end of the day they have to go somewhere, right? The true solution is addressing the causes of endemic poverty, which as a society we don't seem to want to do.
fsujax
January 08, 2009, 02:41:31 PMRiverside, San Marco and Springfield are "streecar suburbs" now this conversation will take twist. We need to better connect all of our historic neighborhoods to the CDB and together they all become the "core" of the jacksonville metro area.
BridgeTroll
January 08, 2009, 02:41:49 PMPerhaps this would help...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/914/115/
downtownparks
January 08, 2009, 02:42:40 PMMoncrief is inner city? Its further away than Ortega!
Steve
January 08, 2009, 02:46:25 PMThis conversation is my point - realistically, from a geographical perspective, Durkeeville and Riverside aren't all that different. Now, there are certainly huge socioeconomic differences between these areas, but these neighborhoods have more similarities than it may seem.
To settle an bullcrap bickering, let's use the term "Old City". this shall refer to the old city limits. Please substitute Old City whenever I said Inner City.
avonjax
January 08, 2009, 02:46:51 PMThis is for RiversideGator
What do you consider good architecture in Jacksonville?
I have noticed that you think almost all the buildings that are talked about on this site are horrible..
I am NOT trying to be mean, start an argument or criticize your opinion, I am just curious.
I live in Avondale so I appreciate the architecture of our neighborhood and I know you do too, but I only know what you don't like.
Thanks
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 02:48:16 PMYou edited your post after I replied to it, so to reply to the rest of it:
I've said what I believe the issues are that contribute to JAX's sprawl problem, which are horrendous urban planning by a small group of self-interested politicians, the virtual abandonment of downtown, and the lack of any viable public transportation system.
As to what to do to improve the "inner city" areas, which speaking accurately if not politically correctly, would be Springfield, Moncreif, etc., and not Riverside and San Marco, then if the City addresses any or all of the three things I've just identified, then I expect that would go a long way towards a symbiotic solution for these neighborhoods, as they are close to downtown.
But other than that, to a large extent this stuff happens on its own. It is slowly occurring in Springfield, and the other areas will take longer. But when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, this process is more an issue of one demographic group trickling out to other places and another group moving in from other places. And I hate to break it to you, but there's always going to be a "poor" or "inner city" or whatever other term you want to use, area of town. It's the nature of our economy and society. You can relocate people all you want, but at the end of the day they have to go somewhere, right? The true solution is addressing the causes of endemic poverty, which as a society we don't seem to want to do.
I don't care about there being lower income neighborhoods, as long as they are safe, walkable, vibrant and properly integrated into the rest of the urban core. Anyway, terminology aside, we're essentially saying the same thing about what needs to be done to improve the urban core (better transit, connectivity, planning, etc.).
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 02:51:43 PMNo, that Joe fellow was shooting the messenger. Albeit with something of a boomerang instead of an arrow.
Other than "historical" or other generic terms, no. And there is no need to coin a term, since they are all different largely unconnected areas. Additionally, if you get into the history of it, they were all developed at different times. I'm not sure "original city" would even apply to RS and SM, as they are more "original suburbs", and in any event aren't the same area.
1: Scrap this FUBAR bus system, and build out a commuter rail system that doesn't just go 3 blocks.
2: Stop dicking around with downtown. When people approach the City and say they want to put a school or whatnot there, the City should be asking "How high do you want me to jump?" not "How much are you going to pay me?"
3: Quit allowing people to tear down higher density structures in the urban core just to build lower density structures, or zero density structures like parking garages.
4: Economic incentives for people who build housing, and who open businesses in certain categories (drug stores, grocery stores, etc.) in neighborhoods where you want to create an urban area.
5: Economic incentives for corporate citizens to occupy urban areas instead of sending them to the sprawling office parks that your Dad owns on the southside.
6: Sell off all the stagnant property the City owns in the urban core, and offer development incentives.
7: Scrap the better Jacksonville plan and convert any remaining funding to the rail system. It's really only contributing to the city's sprawl problems anyway.
Steve
January 08, 2009, 02:57:58 PMI would agree with your points, but add one thing: Give the DDRB some teeth. Some people come to the city with these god awful designs, and we say sure. It's like we're the fat girl in her Senior Year without a date to the prom, and we go with whomever asks us.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 03:04:04 PMOther than "historical" or other generic terms, no. And there is no need to coin a term, since they are all different largely unconnected areas. Additionally, if you get into the history of it, they were all developed at different times. I'm not sure "original city" would even apply to RS and SM, as they are more "original suburbs", and in any event aren't the same area.
Riverside was never a city of its own. It was a streetcar suburb like Springfield, Brentwood and Moncrief. The original suburbs were areas considered a part of downtown today (ie. LaVilla, Brooklyn, East Jacksonville, etc.) San Marco was once a part of South Jacksonville, which became a part of the city in the early 1930s. Up until consolidation in 1968, the City of Jacksonville was comparable in size to the present day city limits of places like Miami and San Francisco. County consolidation, to a degree, makes it difficult to lump Jax (pre consolidated city + suburbs) in with cities like the ones mentioned above (pre consolidated city alone). Nevertheless, places like Indianapolis do prove that consolidated cities can have a vibrant core, with good leadership leading the way.
1: Scrap this FUBAR bus system, and build out a commuter rail system that doesn't just go 3 blocks.
2: Stop dicking around with downtown. When people approach the City and say they want to put a school or whatnot there, the City should be asking "How high do you want me to jump?" not "How much are you going to pay me?"
3: Quit allowing people to tear down higher density structures in the urban core just to build lower density structures, or zero density structures like parking garages.
4: Economic incentives for people who build housing, and who open businesses in certain categories (drug stores, grocery stores, etc.) in neighborhoods where you want to create an urban area.
5: Economic incentives for corporate citizens to occupy urban areas instead of sending them to the sprawling office parks that your Dad owns on the southside.
6: Sell off all the stagnant property the City owns in the urban core, and offer development incentives.
7: Scrap the better Jacksonville plan and convert any remaining funding to the rail system. It's really only contributing to the city's sprawl problems anyway.
Great points!
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 03:04:48 PMhttp://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/914/115/
That first picture in that article just about makes you want to cry, doesn't it?
1/2 of everything in that photo is now vacant land or an empty parking lot.
Ocklawaha
January 08, 2009, 03:09:38 PMUh, historic Moncrief is 3.5 miles from Main and Bay, while Ortega is 4.5.
If you really think this might refer only to a male dominated activity, better go back to Playboy 101, you must have missed some instruction. Bet the burgers and buns will be as great as the breast and thighs next door.
No doubt the Skyway and Streetcar along with a trolley bus shuttle system would change the face of the whole of the old City - which I'll call the core.
As for the building?
GEEZE Y'ALL!
Are Stephendare, TheLakelander and I the only people on this site that know what "DWELL MAGAZINE" is all about? Ever read "METROPOLIS MAGAZINE?" This building cheers the future, I love the simple lines, the ultra modern clean, the appearence that it just landed from Thermia in the Klatu Nebula. Miminalism and Modernity at it's finest in Jacksonville - Who would have thought lightning would strike here in the Colonial-Prairie Style Capital of the South?
I LOVE IT!
OCKLAWAHA
Steve
January 08, 2009, 03:11:36 PMAnother thing - we should have some sort of penalty for developers who tear down buildings that "intend" on replacing the building, and never do. This is a real tragedy. Sometimes, a project falls apart. Other times, a person really doesn't intend to replace a building, they just want it gone. Either way, it needs to stop.
In the case of Jacksonville's worst named eatery, I think this guy at least intends to go through with this. It would seem like a lot to hire an archtect to do renderings and floorplans just to take down a building htat really couldn't have been in that bad of shape.
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 03:14:42 PMYa, but what really throws me for a loop is that our particular fat girl regularly gets asked out by Brad Pitt, and then tells him to F* off, preferring to go to the prom with no date instead. This idiot administration has recently run off a law school, a med school, and no doubt a gazillion other things that we probably don't even know about, from locating in our urban core.
Meanwhile, they gouge on parking enforcement and property taxes to the point where no corporation wants to locate there, and the ones who've traditionally been there continue to slowly trickle out. And of course the recent icing on the cake is, they finally get someone (Tony Sleiman) who's evidently dumb enough to try and tackle The Landing, and then they screw him to the point where he's inevitably going to back out of the deal and the place will continue to languish.
Seriously, WTF? I don't get it. It really is municipal suicide. I keep waiting for City Hall to relocate to one of Herb's office parks on Gate Parkway.
archiphreak
January 08, 2009, 03:15:31 PMI love how my simple comments creates such a stir. And, yes (to several of you), I do see the irony in the chosen name. I even got a small chuckle with a raised eyebrow at it. But forgive me for being more than a little bitter at the fact that Jacksonville seems to REFUSE to make any progress forward. I've lived near or in this city for the better part of 20 years and the only thing I can see that has really changed is the roads are wider and people drive faster. There has been no significant (or even not so significant) development in the urban core in the last 20 years. In the 1970's (as reported by this website) the city officials at that time had a wonderful plan for downtown and it's future. That was quickly shelved in favor or more roads and sub-urban sprawl to the south and east of the core. And since then it's been business as usual. It's sickening and it pisses me off to see a city like ours, with so much potential, and so many of the younger generations wanting change, wasting each and every opportunity that comes along to improve and finally start to move into the 21st century. Who can look around and honestly say they are happy with this city and the direction it's taking? If I've missed something over the last couple months PLEASE point it out to me. Because I see nothing happening lately to make me "lighten up". Things need to change. We've waited long enough for the city officials to pull their heads out of their ass and begin to HELP our city instead of continuing to beat down every positive force that threatens to move in.
Grrrr.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 03:15:58 PMThis is a sad comparison, but it does show the potential of the "Old City".
LaVilla - 1950
LaVilla - 2006 (same area)
One was vibrant and one is not. One was walkable and one is not. One was dense and the other is not. One had buildings that embraced the sidewalks and streets. The other is dominated with parking lots and suburban style buildings with huge setbacks. To recreate a vibrant core, we need to get back to the design principles that originally made it vibrant in the first place. Large and small, we need more "Oral Explosions".
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 03:23:31 PMThey must be pretty serious. Its already under construction.
Steve
January 08, 2009, 03:26:43 PMSo was the Courthouse at one point.
thelakelander
January 08, 2009, 03:33:48 PMFair point.
RiversideGator
January 08, 2009, 04:54:29 PMWhat do you consider good architecture in Jacksonville?
I have noticed that you think almost all the buildings that are talked about on this site are horrible..
I am NOT trying to be mean, start an argument or criticize your opinion, I am just curious.
I live in Avondale so I appreciate the architecture of our neighborhood and I know you do too, but I only know what you don't like.
Thanks
I prefer traditional, pre-World War Two architecture in its many forms. It had character, exhibited craftsmanship, had proper detailing and proportions, was evocative of other eras, related to our history and heritage, lasted longer, and has had continuing appeal. I do appreciate many structures constructed in the modern era too. But many of the new ones going up in Jacksonville just do not make the cut IMO. This is an example of one which does not meet muster.
RiversideGator
January 08, 2009, 05:00:42 PMYa, but what really throws me for a loop is that our particular fat girl regularly gets asked out by Brad Pitt, and then tells him to F* off, preferring to go to the prom with no date instead. This idiot administration has recently run off a law school, a med school, and no doubt a gazillion other things that we probably don't even know about, from locating in our urban core.
Meanwhile, they gouge on parking enforcement and property taxes to the point where no corporation wants to locate there, and the ones who've traditionally been there continue to slowly trickle out. And of course the recent icing on the cake is, they finally get someone (Tony Sleiman) who's evidently dumb enough to try and tackle The Landing, and then they screw him to the point where he's inevitably going to back out of the deal and the place will continue to languish.
Seriously, WTF? I don't get it. It really is municipal suicide. I keep waiting for City Hall to relocate to one of Herb's office parks on Gate Parkway.
Nothing downtown will improve until we get that little twerp out of City Hall. He is both in the tank for the southside and not bright enough to get much accomplished anyway (unless it benefits Daddy, of course).
Doctor_K
January 08, 2009, 05:03:23 PMBully! Capital idea!
JeffreyS
January 08, 2009, 07:01:57 PMIf this is really for a Micky D's and a BK I would say it is as good as it gets.
Ocklawaha
January 08, 2009, 07:37:51 PMGreat photos Lakelander. The only before and after I have are in the area of LaVilla-Brickyard-JTA-McCoys Creek and the rail yards, showing before the freeway and "after" during the construction. Talk about purification of the land! This city never saw a bulldozer it didn't LOVE. Can you even tell which direction the camera was facing in my shots? Try and ID a single damn thing! HISTORY SUBLIME!
OCKLAWAHA
ProjectMaximus
January 08, 2009, 07:51:32 PMWhew...
I feel like I just watched a Lifetime movie (not that I, uh, have ever seen one). This must be the hottest topic this site has ever seen...85 replies and the day isn't over yet...I think I've reached my word quota for reading in one day.
Glad Chris, Steve, and Lake seem to all be on the same page now. I understand Lake's original point about applying concepts from this building to all the suburban development throughout the city...things could be very different now. I definitely agree with Chris' seven steps to improving the core. Numbers 4 and 5 are the key catalysts to revitalization, and of course transit plays a role in helping all of that along.
I don't know much about architectural design, but the way I imagine this finished product, I suspect that in principle, it's as nice as a one-story fast food joint is gonna get in a suburban environment. And I'm guessing the bldg itself won't be called Oral Explosion? That's just the developer?
BTW...one thing we can all agree on...after the gators win tonight they deserve to be national champs?
ChriswUfGator
January 08, 2009, 08:41:56 PMWatching the game right now, with my fingers crossed.
Ocklawaha
January 09, 2009, 01:54:36 AMFOOTBALL?
WOW WHAT A GAME! Left me high on the hog... and making calls to Oklahoma until 2 AM! HA HA!
My formula for fun goes like this:
Ocklawaha raised in Ortega - Jacksonville, in the Oligocene period.
In the late Pleistocene Period, I attend OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY (The Cowpokes)
This year, while eating popcorn and drowning in two bottles of Rebel Yell, The University of Oklahoma (The Sooners {*1.note}) handed my school our ass in our first winning season in memory. They even defiled our new T. Boone Pickens Stadium with their riff-raff.
OCKLAWAHA NOW LIVES AT HOME IN JACKSONVILLE FLORIDA.
HE STILL HATES
#1OU.OCKLAWAHA'S HOME STATE SCHOOL THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA (Gators) Hand OU their asses!
YIPPIE YI YO COW PATTY'S!!
OCKLAWAHA happy now - walking on walls! Hic!
(Note 1. - Sooners = Believe it or not a University Team named after criminals facing a death penalty for gross violation of international treatys and law. Before the guns sounded to start the various land runs in Oklahoma, many groups of criminals would sneak under the line and stake land claims ahead of the race. So in old west cowboy slang - "they got there sooner" - later just shortened to sooners. The army and the indians could shoot them on sight. WAY TO GO UF! )
ProjectMaximus
January 09, 2009, 03:35:37 AMThis year, while eating popcorn and drowning in two bottles of Rebel Yell, The University of Oklahoma (The Sooners {*1.note}) handed my school our ass in our first winning season in memory. They even defiled our new T. Boone Pickens Stadium with their riff-raff.
Confused?! You guys (Cowboys) have had winning records for three straight seasons and 6 of the last 7. But yeah, go gators!
CMG22
January 09, 2009, 06:50:41 PMMore? Fast? Food? You've got to be kidding me! Sure, kudos for development and planning and tearing down a seedy place, but how uninspired! The last thing this city needs are more chains layering on the fat layers with more deep fried food. Now don't get me wrong, I love me some Wendy's, but it'd be better for me if it were harder to get. At a time when the lunch shops in that area are struggling, the last thing we need are people getting fat on the cheap instead of enjoying more specialized, unique cuisine...
thelakelander
January 09, 2009, 07:29:40 PMI assume the developer is attempting to target the thousands of employees and visitors, with limited time and budgets, visting the Southbank. I don't know who will end up in this food court, but fast food does not have to ooze with layers of fat. Noodles & Co, Chipotle, Atlanta Bread, Cosi, Au Bon Pain and Sierra Grill are good examples of fast food restaurants offering a healthier menu.
ChriswUfGator
January 09, 2009, 07:39:20 PM+1
I especially like Atlanta Bread
Ocklawaha
January 09, 2009, 08:06:49 PMConfused?! You guys (Cowboys) have had winning records for three straight seasons and 6 of the last 7. But yeah, go gators!
That's pretty cool news to me, having spent the last few years closer to the Amazon then the St. Johns... Hard to watch US College football in the Andes - unless you buy some overpriced package.
I did hear that we beat OU year before last? Doesn't matter if we win any other games, just as long as we beat OU. This season was a washout on that!
OCKLAWAHA
ProjectMaximus
January 10, 2009, 05:05:06 AMWait...Chipotle? Healthier? no way....
ChriswUfGator
January 10, 2009, 02:05:22 PMWait...Chipotle? Healthier? no way....
He means, like, compared to a whopper or a big mac, or whatever else most people get at a typical fast food place. You have to admit, chipotle is better than that...
ProjectMaximus
January 10, 2009, 02:20:12 PMConfused?! You guys (Cowboys) have had winning records for three straight seasons and 6 of the last 7. But yeah, go gators!
That's pretty cool news to me, having spent the last few years closer to the Amazon then the St. Johns... Hard to watch US College football in the Andes - unless you buy some overpriced package.
I did hear that we beat OU year before last? Doesn't matter if we win any other games, just as long as we beat OU. This season was a washout on that!
OCKLAWAHA
Haha, true...rivalry games sometimes play a bigger role in a coach keeping/losing his job than the overall record...or God forbid...the academic success of his students.
What I most remember about you guys is Gundy's rant at the newspaper columnist last year. That was quite entertaining. Tell me you didnt miss that, Ock!
ProjectMaximus
January 10, 2009, 02:28:45 PMWait...Chipotle? Healthier? no way....
He means, like, compared to a whopper or a big mac, or whatever else most people get at a typical fast food place. You have to admit, chipotle is better than that...
Maybe. But I think it's a misconception that Chipotle is all that healthy, though. While McDonald's no longer owns Chipotle, check out Chipotle's nutritional facts...the calories and fat in one order are staggering! Perhaps cause they serve such large portions. The notion of healthiness probably comes from their use of organic foods and "natural" ingredients. Which is a good thing, but still...I've got to run right now so I can't post a direct comparison to the Big Mac and Whopper, but do a quick search.
Anyway, not that I don't still eat at Chipotle, or even care THAT much about nutrition...but I still think it's important people who do care are aware of any misleading misconceptions.
RiversideGator
January 11, 2009, 10:31:24 PMYou can now get quasi-healthy food even at most fast food places. McDonalds even has a fruit and walnut salad and grilled chicken sandwich. It really depends on what you, as an individual, choose to order and eat as much as what is on the menu at the place you visit.
ProjectMaximus
January 12, 2009, 01:40:22 AMyeah, thats true, RG. Only to a certain degree, but I do agree it's up to the consumer to discern.
thelakelander
February 18, 2009, 11:37:31 AMhttp://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
Doctor_K
February 18, 2009, 12:01:56 PMIt's wonderful to see this still progressing. It's certainly a bright spot among the many bad-news stories about the economy and the market(s). Kudos to the owner for seeing it through.
The Compound
February 18, 2009, 12:38:40 PMYAY MORE SUSHI!
Steve
February 18, 2009, 04:53:44 PMCan they change the name?
I mean, Oral Explosions?
David
February 18, 2009, 05:01:24 PMI was just thinking that today.
But you know the person(s) responsible for coming up with the name are saying "Oh please, get your mind out of the gutter."
But it's more like...c'mon are you serious? Let's do a reality check here. Most people aren't going to think "mmm food court" when they hear that name.
Maybe it's a different "in your face" kind of food court though. We shall see!
Bewler
February 18, 2009, 05:19:54 PM"Hmmm, I think I'll name my restaurant... Sexual Intercourse Seafood! What? What's wrong with that? Oh grow up people."
billy
February 18, 2009, 06:55:23 PMDid Borat come up with the name?
TheProfessor
February 18, 2009, 08:31:04 PMThe building name really does not matter. It could go unamed with a simple building number for what anyone cares. The important names are those of the restaurants people will patron.
The Compound
February 18, 2009, 09:01:42 PMIm still hoping for Oral Explosion to contain Five Guys.
Southbanker
February 19, 2009, 10:38:25 PMI think my head is going to explode if another sushi place opens near me! And I actually like sushi, but jeeze louise enough is enough!
jaxlore
March 02, 2009, 11:30:07 AMi hope the Italian place is not just Gino's moving down the street the service there was horrendous and prices over the top.
JeffreyS
March 02, 2009, 03:55:40 PMHow about a Tijuana Flats.
David
March 02, 2009, 04:15:05 PMGino's moved to St. Augustine Rd just off University.
jaxlore
March 05, 2009, 11:46:35 AMcool i guess... although i did see there is going to be an Indian Place YEAH!!! This will work out nicely for work lunches something for everyone. especially me.
Looks like it will be done in about 3 weeks!
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/03/02/daily33.html?ana=from_rss
thelakelander
March 05, 2009, 11:52:43 AMI like the concept. I hope the local hospital will be either Shands or St. Vincents.
thelakelander
March 09, 2009, 11:58:10 AMHere are the names of the restaurants going into the Oral Explosions project.
1. JP Lee's Asian Bistro
2. Ray's Pizza
3. Flavors Indian Cuisine
4. Coffee Roasters
5. Deli Deli
http://www.jacksonville.com/business/2009-03-08/story/quick-serve_eateries_soon_to_hit_san_marco
nicktooch
March 14, 2009, 05:10:13 PManyone been to the Flavors on baymeadows (where indian restaurants are a dime a dozen lol jk)?
jaxlore
March 19, 2009, 08:52:44 AMnope went to the 5th Element for there sunday buffet, was pretty good not as spot on as Cilantros, but enjoyable and it was 8.50 not a bad deal and plenty for the vegetarian.
so when is this place opening up?
jaxlore
April 16, 2009, 03:36:26 PMsaw some actual signage posted looks like the place is starting to come along.
CrysG
May 27, 2009, 02:33:30 PMThat's what she said.....
thelakelander
May 27, 2009, 02:39:15 PMYou can give up the ghost. Five Guys will not be in there.
reednavy
May 27, 2009, 02:39:37 PMfacepalm
Ray's Pizza sure looks similar to Al's Pizza sign.
The Compound
May 27, 2009, 02:53:23 PMRay's Pizza sure looks similar to Al's Pizza sign.
Its already been noticed: http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2009/04/separated-at-birth_30.html
reednavy
May 27, 2009, 03:17:46 PMI'd sue.
copperfiend
May 27, 2009, 03:18:06 PMObvious knock off.
BridgeTroll
May 27, 2009, 03:46:01 PMI think Ray is Als norwegian cousin...
hanjin1
June 22, 2009, 07:56:43 PMOral Explosion was having it's grand opening today. Looked like they were having a big opening as cars were everywhere
reednavy
June 22, 2009, 08:51:34 PMWTF?! I had a post about Ray's Pizza sign going away and being replaced with Royal Pizza, yet gets deleted. I'm pissed.
jaxlore
June 26, 2009, 12:33:20 PMalright made it down there today and had some Flavors Indian, and it rocked $6 buck gets you one veggie entre and one meat entre, basamati rice, and a bunch of naan and includes a drink. I had the vegetable masala not sure which type and spinach paneer and it was tastee and for that price range you can't beat it. They said starting next week they will have a full menu available for take out. There biggest problem is parking we parked in the baptist dirt lot other then that there is limited street parking, bistro aix owns everything else. My friend had some pizza and the slice was ridiculously big he liked it although said it was not on par with moon river, but then again he likes pizza hut . But overall enjoyed the experience, they are open till 9p at night so sounds like it might be a dinner alternative even for me coming from riverside.
ProjectMaximus
June 26, 2009, 03:42:07 PMThis place was originally supposed to be completed some time in the winter. It's also nice to see things move forward ahead of schedule.
The Compound
June 26, 2009, 03:59:26 PMI walked in there today and walked out, it just looked like blah foodcourt stuff. Maybe I just wasnt in the mood.
David
June 26, 2009, 04:25:59 PMYeah it's definitely foodcourtish, but it seems like it may be a step above. Either way, there's nothing really quick and cheap that's open past 3pm in San Marco, excluding subs. It fills a void for sure.
Ray's pizza isn't bad for the money, the slices are pretty huge as mentioned above. Thin crust, NY style, you really do have to fold it to eat it right. I'm looking forward to trying out the others.
Southbanker
June 27, 2009, 03:04:33 PMI tried the Indian today around 2:30. It was good...about the same as most Indian buffet places in Jax. There were maybe 8-10 people eating in there at that time.
Definitely a food court, but that is what I expected so I was not disappointed.
I dropped a bit of chicken masala on my lap while eating. When I left I thought it was pretty funny that I got a stain on my shorts from my 1st visit to Oral Explosions.
David
June 27, 2009, 04:22:03 PMhehe.
Yeah I suggested to my lady that we go to Oral Explosions for a late lunch today. After she made the obvious joke, I convinced her it's just a food court and it's cheap.
I had the general tso's chicken. I thought it was better than most of the other Chinese take out joints in town, very tender and just the right portion.
She did the Ray's pizza which I did yesterday, liked it as well.
I think the only place we haven't touched on on this thread so far is the deli place at the far end.
I'm not sure if they'll be able to keep their weekend hours up though, it's pretty much a ghost-town in that part of San Marco on Saturdays and Sundays. Same goes for the extended weekday hours, it seems more like a lunch joint. It'd be nice if they could though, i'd make frequent use of it as I like quick cheap eats.
jaxlore
July 01, 2009, 09:29:27 AMwent and got my morning coffee from the deli at 7:30a and it was good the guy owns coffee roasters and roast his own beans over in mandarin. Had my soy cappuccino and egg and cheese bagel and it was quite tasty for about $7, the breakfast special was a better deal though, coffee, egg+cheese bagel + meat 4.50.