Some transportation problems have more than one solution, with pros and cons to each. It all depends or your priorities and preferences.
After all, you are not only a potential user of transportation infrastructure and services, you are an investor. Income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes and user fees are all sources of transportation funding at some level.
How the Draft Potential Needs Plan Was Developed
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2035 Potential Needs Plan - Transit Projects
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2035 Potential Needs Plan - Road Projects
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2035 Potential Needs Plan Project List
(Click on images to enlarge)
Transportation Madness
So will it be rail or more roads and sprawl in Jacksonville's future? During a recent survey, the TPO asked the local community to pick the types of transportation improvements they prefer and the top ranked choice was commuter rail, followed by "urban rail" (streetcar/light rail). Jacksonville continues to speak, will leaders listen?
Want Rail? Go to a Community Meeting!
This round of public meetings will be an Open House format where you can stop by any time from 5:30 – 7:30 p.m. to discuss the proposed projects with staff, ask questions and submit comments.
PUBLIC OPEN HOUSE MEETINGS
Nassau County
Monday, August 17
Nassau County Commission
Chambers
96135 Nassau Place
Northwest St. Johns County
Tuesday, August 18
Bartram Trail Branch Library
60 Davis Pond Boulevard
St. Augustine
Monday, August 24
St. Johns County Main Library
1960 North Ponce de Leon Boulevard
Downtown Jacksonville
Tuesday, August 25
Main Library
303 North Laura Street
Clay County
Wednesday, August 26
Fleming Island High School
Teacher Training Center
2233 Village Square Parkway
Southeast Duval County
Thursday, August 27
Southeast Regional Library
10599 Deerwood Park Boulevard
For more information visit: http://www.northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/participate/
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thelakelander
August 14, 2009, 06:39:13 AMThe Northern Outer Beltway:
This is one idea that needs to be immediately hit in the head with a shovel and buried six feet under. What is this region's infatuation with projects like this? 301 already serves as this purpose and four laning it in the distant future would be more than enough to relieve congestion.
thelakelander
August 14, 2009, 07:00:36 AMFor those attempting to enlarge the images in the article, it appears our photo host (www.smugmug.com) is currently down right now. In the meantime you can view the maps full scale at:
North Florida TPO Envision 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan
http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/participate/
Charles Hunter
August 14, 2009, 07:18:19 AMAlso, the "Envision" site in lakelander's link has another preference poll where you can vote for rail/BRT/roads in different corridors. Fun.
thelakelander
August 14, 2009, 07:21:07 AMHere is a link:
Roads vs Transit
http://northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/roads-vs-transit/
zoo
August 14, 2009, 07:27:22 AMThe MPO/NFTPO has never listened to the community. It is run by suburbanites for suburbanites, and fails to consider major paradigm shifts and environmental impact in its plans, even though in theory it is restricted by growth management policy. The whole group should be replaced.
lindab
August 14, 2009, 07:57:58 AMI have always objected to these simple minded polls taken by consultants to the TPO or JTA.
They want citizens to vote on partially made decisions with very little other information about the conditions each proposal will affect such as costs, impacts to businesses, residences, noise, impacts to environment and historic structures.
Every time I go to these meetings, I am told over and over, "No we don't want to hear about your suggestions just vote on our proposal as stated. Changes to XYZ Street: Widen or Rail? " Well, I say to them "Phooey!"
tufsu1
August 14, 2009, 08:17:55 AMLindab....
The TPO and its consultants are very interested in what you have to say and they will come to the meetings with lots of information.....note that these meetings are more like open houses where you can drop in and talk one-on-one and then provide your comments/suggestions.
Now I do agree that the online poll and game have been somewhat simplistic, but they are meant to get an over-arching feel for what people in this region are looking for....that said, it is real difficult to tell the elected officials (that make up the TPO Board) that the community really wants transit (or something else) when less than 100 people play the online games and fewer show up at public meetings.
Now is the time to let your voice be heard.
tufsu1
August 14, 2009, 08:19:24 AMThe NFTPO Board is comprised of local government elected officials....many of whom are suburbanites who represent suburbanites (they are part of the community too)....but if you don't like what the elected officials are doing, don't vote for them!
aubureck
August 14, 2009, 08:40:51 AMWhile I am not overly familiar with the staff and members of the Committees comprised by the NFTPO. I did spend some time working for 3 other TPO's in northwest Florida. At that time we were also in the process of updating our LRTP and the staff and the majority of the committees were filled with people who deeply cared about where the community was going and how to improve it in the long run.
I wholeheartedly disagree that they are a group who do not care to listen to the community.
Jason
August 14, 2009, 10:54:51 AMHonestly, I don't see the list of proposed transit and road projects in a negative light. The only one I have a problem with is the outer beltway/9B and the Nocatee Parkway extension. The beltway needs to be scrapped and the Nocatee extension revised. The remainder of the proposed roads, extensions, and widening proposals really look like they are in line with the growth and will likely be needed.
The transit map looks very similar to the routes and modes discussed and proposed by many here on MetroJax. It looks like they are accepting our advise and making moves in the right direction.
BRT (as originally proposed) is all but squashed, streetcar routes make sence, skyway extensions are still on the table, commuter rail is seemingly in the works, and what is left of BRT is on busy suburban corridors where it makes sence. Furthermore, all lines lead to JTC.
Captain Zissou
August 14, 2009, 11:38:36 AMI agree with most of the results in the survey. I would rather see a rail spur go out to the beach on JTB than BRT. Anything that will reduce the number of busways is better. Once the port activity picks up, dedicated truck lanes will shoot up the list of priorities.
JeffreyS
August 14, 2009, 12:49:29 PMI like that they are looking at existing rail lines first. It would be great to have one go to the beach at some point.
Dog Walker
August 14, 2009, 03:51:42 PMHad a good friend who worked for FDOT for years. He said that FDOT's vision of a mixed transit system was half asphalt and half concrete. I've not seen anything yet that would make him change that opinion.
Rule number one of traffic problems: You cannot build your way out of congestion.
Beltways are for developers, not for citizens.
Ocklawaha
August 14, 2009, 10:28:01 PMTrue Dog Walker, and remember folks "Freeways" ARE NOT FREE!
What's with the survey that asks if you want Rail/BRT or widen the road? Sounds like a set up for talking rail while the roadway is being laid down, then marking it for BRT on the final day of road work... After All... "BRT, It's just like rail only cheaper!"
1.
a. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive.
b. Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant.
2.
a. Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money.
b. Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars.
3. Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.
4. Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap.
5. Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy.
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.
adv. cheaper, cheapest
Inexpensively: got the new car cheap.
Idioms:
cheap at twice the price
Extremely inexpensive.
on the cheap
By inexpensive means; cheaply: traveled to Europe on the cheap
Considering that it is the BRT camp that is touting the words "CHEAPER! CHEAPER! CHEAPER!" we must really be in for a treat. Rapid Transit without a track! or without a Tram! or without electricity! A system to match every metropolitan area, Manhattan = Subways, Portland = LRT, Little Rock = Streetcars, Dayton = trolley buses, Chicago = EL, San Francisco = ferry's, Jacksonville... hello Jacksonville? Come in Jacksonville? J A C K S O N V I L L E !!
OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1
August 15, 2009, 12:18:24 AMOck...its not a set-up....just a weird quirk of the survey....basically, you'll see on the tables that transit options have been identified for some of the 135 road projects (albeit there are some missing)....the survy was created based on that column.
Dog Walker...FDOT (and virtually every other DOT in the country) are generally thought to be not progressive....but this study isn't being done by FDOT....so that sould not be a limiting factor.
Ocklawaha
August 15, 2009, 12:23:46 AMWell that's good news my friend. I'd like to be in on the next meetings and also like to see us do a planning Charette on streetcars. What do you think?
OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1
August 15, 2009, 08:41:13 AMThe next set of meetings start Monday (there are 6 overall throughout the region)...the downtown workshop is on 8/25 (unfortunately it appears to be at the same time as a JTA workshop)...come on out!
A streetcar charette is a good idea, but the LRTP process probably isn't the right place...I think people need to first figure out what transit projects are deemed cost feasible by 2035....and then we should progress from there.
coredumped
August 15, 2009, 11:23:51 AMThe skyway extension doesn't include the stadium?
charlestondxman
August 16, 2009, 01:53:48 PMI can't believe that they don't have that plan to go to the sports complex. Imagine that service, going all the way over there, and it would really help all of Northeast Florida, and perhaps save the Jaguars.
Also, Amtrak needs to re-add that service from New Orleans to Jacksonville.
ralpho37
August 16, 2009, 02:04:00 PMSave the Jaguars?
Charles Hunter
August 16, 2009, 08:44:57 PMI looked at the site, it looks like they have a streetcar line going to the Sports Complex instead of the Skyway. Which has a better cost to peak capacity ratio?
Ocklawaha
August 16, 2009, 11:57:47 PMWhile the streetcar could have a much greater load capacity - as it stands right now: Skyway -v- Streetcar, the Skyway would win out IF we expanded the cars per train, as well as the cars themselves. Also consider the whole Skyway system operates with just two people at the controls.
Streetcars could be en-trained but then it gets into traffic questions or private right-of-way, either of which send us back up the elevator to the Skyway. The way things are stacked around here, the Skyway could be represented by a cheap Sam's Cola, while the Streetcar is more like the most expensive Bourbon a 16 year old A. H. Hirsch Reserve.
Also, Amtrak needs to re-add that service from New Orleans to Jacksonville.
Both the Gulf Wind Route JAX - NOL(MSY), as well as the Florida East Coast Railway, JAX - MIA are both well in the works and should roll by 2012.
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
August 17, 2009, 08:49:57 AMBoth the Gulf Wind Route JAX - NOL(MSY), as well as the Florida East Coast Railway, JAX - MIA are both well in the works and should roll by 2012. - Ock
Fantastic!! I rode the Gulf Wind for years going to New Orleans to visit cousins and have lots of fond memories. FEC is supposed to have some of the best maintained tracks and beds in the country. Should be a smooth ride south.
mtraininjax
August 17, 2009, 09:27:23 AM2012? Well, at least the JTA is sprucing up the current Amtrak station in Jax with some stimulus funds for today's travellers. No telling what will happen in 3 years.
Traveller
August 17, 2009, 09:29:46 AMThat would be terrific. My in-laws live near Jupiter. If a train could get us to Stuart (or them to Jax) in 5 hours or less, we (or they) would probably use it once a month. Wait, maybe that's not so terrific.
thelakelander
August 17, 2009, 09:30:58 AM^If the Jax-Miami link ends up being funded, construction could begin as soon as April 2010. Jax needs to get its act together and figure out how to get that Amtrak station back downtown, ASAP.
lindab
August 17, 2009, 10:18:30 AMHandouts for public comments: 135 proposed projects; 26 transit (rail or BRT). 33 New roads or interchanges.
Hmm.
hightowerlover
August 17, 2009, 12:54:13 PMhttp://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-08-17/story/north_florida_road_planners_look_for_feedback
SCHEDULE
All open house meetings are scheduled from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m.
Today Nassau County Commission Chambers, 96135 Nassau Place, Yulee, FL 32097
Tuesday Bartram Trail branch library (northwest St. Johns County), 60 Davis Pond Blvd., Jacksonville, FL 32259
Monday, Aug. 24 St. Johns County Main Library, 1960 N. Ponce de Leon Blvd., St. Augustine, FL 32084
Tuesday, Aug. 25 Main Library, 303 N. Laura St., Jacksonville, FL 32202
Wednesday, Aug. 26 Fleming Island High School Teacher Training Center, 2233 Village Square Parkway, Orange Park, FL 32003
Thursday, Aug. 27 Southeast Regional Library, 10599 Deerwood Park Blvd., Jacksonville, FL 32256
North Florida Transportation Planning Organization
The possibility of Jacksonville having commuter rail or a streetcar sounds like something out of science fiction for many residents.
But officials with the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization are asking local residents to consider these possibilities and think about how they would like to see transportation evolve over the next 25 years.
The agency is having six open-house meetings in the next two weeks asking residents to opine on how the city's transportation infrastructure should evolve. Road projects will be discussed, but officials say the most important discussions will focus on getting people off the roads and onto some form of public transportation.
The Times-Union spoke with Transportation Planning Organization Executive Director Denise Bunnewith, spokeswoman Marci Larson and consultant project manager Wiatt Bowers about what they hoped to accomplish with these meetings.
Why should people come to the meetings?
With a large population increase expected over the next 20 years, roads will have to be widened. But some uncertainty exists over which roads those will be.
For example, to deal with congestion north of Jacksonville, Interstate 95 could be widened to eight lanes, or Main Street could be widened to six.
Only one of these projects needs to happen, and it would be helpful to the Transportation Planning Organization to find out which one residents prefer.
At some point widening roads will not be enough. The planning organization is considering a commuter rail network, a streetcar system that will involve installing tracks, extending the Skyway, a water ferry and bus rapid transit that would involve bus-only lanes.
At the moment it does not know which of these options residents like the best. If lots of people come out and indicate a preference for one option, the agency will look more seriously at the feasibility of it.
Realistically, how many of these public transportation options could happen?
Transportation officials say at least one needs to happen and believe that commuter rail and streetcars are probably the most realistic. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is already moving ahead with bus rapid transit and plans to discuss the feasibility of commuter rail at its Aug. 27 meeting.
What if people have no idea how the transportation infrastructure should evolve?
Agency officials still encourage them to come out. The open-house meetings will be informal, with transportation officials showing people all the road and transit projects planned over the next 20 years. They'll ask which projects are important to them and which sound like a bad idea.
There are 135 road projects now in the potential-needs list and 25 proposals for public transportation.
What happens after these workshops occur?
The planning organization will work on putting together a needs plan that includes estimated cost for all the projects listed. Based on the feedback at these open-house meetings, officials might eliminate some projects and add others.
The plan will be called the Transportation Plan Envision 2035 because it plans out potential road projects until the year 2035.
After a tentative plan is drawn up, the planning organization will hold more public meetings in the fall to get feedback on that plan. A final draft will be approved by the end of 2009.
tufsu1
August 17, 2009, 02:47:03 PMHmm.
what are you trying to say?
tufsu1
August 17, 2009, 02:48:50 PMfrom what I hear, it won't be anywhere near that soon....unless they can get a special "temporary" permit from FEC, they will likely need to double track first....and when that was done with TriRail in South Florida, it took close to 10 years inluding all the environmental reviews, design, and construction.
Ocklawaha
August 17, 2009, 04:36:19 PMTUFSU1, The Florida East Coast is on the case, in fact they have been quiet players in this whole Commuter Rail study from the starting gate. What normally happens in these cases, (See: Amtrak California - The San Joaquin's), is that FEC, AMTRAK and FLORIDA, all come together and ink their deal. In order to get in the market while it's setting the media agenda, Amtrak-FEC will start with a single round trip daily, one with plenty of padding built into the schedules. The plan for the FEC will be LVE: Jax 9:55 AM - ARV: MIA 4:35 PM would be similar to the first San Joaquin Train. (There are 12 of them today!). I have serious doubts the FEC will seek double track along the whole 300 mile route. More likely they will hand DOT a list of surgical improvements, extended sidings, crossings closed and a few overpasses built to avoid troublesome crossings. This movement has really got the masses worked up and the FEC is riding high on the headlines. They would be foolish to let this momentum stall or fade over a 10 minute time savings delivered by a new passing siding.
Well that's my crystal ball...
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
August 17, 2009, 10:57:18 PMI also thought that they would not have to double track the entire corridor immediately. Nevertheless, assuming all the moons aligned in order, the earliest the system would begin running is 2012. If funding is granted soon, I can't imagine it taking another decade to get Amtrak up and running on the FEC.
Ocklawaha
August 21, 2009, 06:06:40 PMAnother factor in this, even if the FEC was to double track the entire railroad, it shouldn't be as bad as the Tri-Rail / CSX mess in Miami. That was largely single track territory from day one and much of it was in pretty cramped space. The FEC was completely double tracked into the 1960's, so the right of way, bridges, culverts and such are ready to roll.
OCKLAWAHA