What is Ordinance 2009-401?
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In summary, Ord. 2009-401 would give JTA the approval it needs to allow advertising on transit shelters. We would like to join dozens of other transit agencies and cities across the country, in increasing the number of transit shelters for our current riders and to attract new transit riders, and do so at no cost to the taxpayer. This is a classic case of a public agency entering into a public/private partnership to offer services people need without using scarce tax dollars. After all, we sell naming rights to stadiums, arenas and ball parks to offset a portion of the operational costs of those facilities. The shelter company would enter into a long term agreement with JTA and install and maintain a minimum number of shelters each year over the course of the contract. The shelter locations would be approved by the transit agency and placed at stops where the number of riders make it warranted. The shelter company would sell ads on one side of the shelter to recover their capital and operational costs. All ads must be approved by JTA and fall within JTA's Board of Directors Advertising Policy. The purpose of this proposal is not to fill the city with unwanted advertising, its to build more shelters. We currently have 400 shelters and over 6,000 bus stops. We believe our riders deserve better as does CM Jones and the nine additional council members who've put their name on this bill.
Mike Miller, JTA Director of External Affairs
Gimme Shelter
A brief video by JTA explaining why its time to support a bill that adds hundreds of new bus shelters at no cost to taxpayers.
Improving an economic development weakness
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View from a Competitor
Florida Trend asked an economic development professional in a market that competes with Jacksonville to assess the city’s strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths:
”Jacksonville has been linked ‘to a great sea by a great river’ since its beginning days. With the widening of the Panama Canal, scheduled for completion in 2014, Jacksonville is poised to assume an even more powerful leadership role in the coming era of giant cargo ships. But its greatest strength is its model of government, created in 1968. Jacksonville is today the envy of civic, business and governmental leaders from across our state, since its one-stop-style-of-local-government makes doing things in Jacksonville easy when compared to most other cities and counties in Florida.”
Weaknesses:
"Although it is the largest city in our state by size, when contrasted to and when competing with other regions of Florida, Jacksonville has a comparatively small population. As a result, it lacks some of the amenities and the quality of life image now being demanded by the creative class. In the years ahead, Jacksonville will have to learn how to better showcase its assets; not just to future residents now living in other parts of the United States, but to those citizens looking to relocate to the United States from other countries. This international competition for talent is going to be an especially difficult game for Jacksonville to win, unless it establishes new ways of recruiting highly skilled, highly educated, highly motivated workers, essential for the new economy.”
Florida Trend asked an economic development professional in a market that competes with Jacksonville to assess the city’s strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths:
”Jacksonville has been linked ‘to a great sea by a great river’ since its beginning days. With the widening of the Panama Canal, scheduled for completion in 2014, Jacksonville is poised to assume an even more powerful leadership role in the coming era of giant cargo ships. But its greatest strength is its model of government, created in 1968. Jacksonville is today the envy of civic, business and governmental leaders from across our state, since its one-stop-style-of-local-government makes doing things in Jacksonville easy when compared to most other cities and counties in Florida.”
Weaknesses:
"Although it is the largest city in our state by size, when contrasted to and when competing with other regions of Florida, Jacksonville has a comparatively small population. As a result, it lacks some of the amenities and the quality of life image now being demanded by the creative class. In the years ahead, Jacksonville will have to learn how to better showcase its assets; not just to future residents now living in other parts of the United States, but to those citizens looking to relocate to the United States from other countries. This international competition for talent is going to be an especially difficult game for Jacksonville to win, unless it establishes new ways of recruiting highly skilled, highly educated, highly motivated workers, essential for the new economy.”
See: http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?page=1&aID=51436
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Growing numbers of creative workers will no longer tolerate time-wasting commutes. In a massive national survey of information technology workers by InformationWeek, commuting distance was ranked among the most important job attributes by about 20% of respondents -- outscoring items such as bonus opportunities and financial stability of the firm. Regions that find ways to cut their time overhead may well enjoy a competitive advantage in the future.
Because of the need for people to save time, rebuilding and improving public transit must be a priority...
Because of the need for people to save time, rebuilding and improving public transit must be a priority...
Page 168, Cities and the Creative Class by Richard Florida
While some may view the bus shelter discussion as simply an aesthetic one, it's actually an issue that will determine the direction of our city's economic future. A look around the country reveals that quality mass transit is one of the top urban amenities that appeals to the creative class. It is a critical element in the recruiting of highly skilled and educated workers that are essential for the new economy. Locally, mass transit happens to be one of Jacksonville's major weaknesses.
In addition to the acceptance of rail-based transit over additional road expansion in Jacksonville, our community must also significantly improve the bus system. Having quality, well maintained shelters that protect riders from the Florida rain and sun is a must.
Shelters with Advertising in Peer Cities
They say there is nothing new under the sun, a phrase which rings especially true with advertising on bus shelters. Here are a few images of well designed, privately funded bus shelters in other cities. It is important to note that these privately funded shelters are all superior to what we currently have locally in Jacksonville. They also do not detract from the environment they are placed into and can be designed to further integrate into their immediate surroundings.
Baltimore
Baltimore's modern bus shelters are designed in a fashion that adds character to the sidewalks.
Chicago
Chicago's shelters incorporate an open and highly visible design.
Buffalo
The bus shelter bill is an excellent example of using private sector investment to enhance the quality of public mass transit. For those interested in fake trolleys and real rail systems, this type of program can also reduce the cost for them. Like bus users, faux trolley and rail riders also need protection from natural elements to enhance their usability.
New York City
Even in Manhattan, efficient bus transportation is important.
Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh's bus shelters feature a unique design that has advertisements placed parallel to vehicular traffic.
Toronto
Toronto's shelters allow transit riders to enter them from two directions. Benches are also designed to eliminate vagrants from using them for sleeping.
Charleston, SC
Although Charleston's shelters feature no advertising, they are a great example of a new design that fits architecturally into a national historic district.
If you are against bus shelter advertising
The lack of shelters in Jacksonville is a problem that our community must overcome if we want to compete in the new economy. For those not willing to support this universal public/private shelter program, work to offer a viable alternative solution with examples. Killing a viable affordable solution without an alternative on the table does the entire city a disservice.
What can you do to help enhance mass transit in Jacksonville?
While there are council members in support of the bus shelter bill, there are others who are on the fence or outright opposed. Regardless of whether you are for or against having 750 free maintained bus shelters installed on Jacksonville's streets, voice your opinion by attending the Planning Commission meeting on Thursday, August 13, 2009.
For those who can not attend, pick up the phone and give your council representative a call, or send the council an email at cityc@coj.net
Article by Ennis Davis
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copperfiend
August 12, 2009, 07:48:01 AMAs long as they are classy like the Hooters ads on the city buses, I am fine.
fsu813
August 12, 2009, 08:20:28 AMbig difference:
most of jax's bus stops aren't in large, urban areas like most of the one's shown in the pics. so they'll stand out much, much more.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 08:36:16 AMI disagree. These shelters are also located in areas of low density in and around these communities and they look fine and more attractive than anything we currently have here in town. On top of this, their transit users are also protected from the elements, which enhances their system's overall usability. I'll upload a few images later this afternoon of shelters in suburban areas.
stephendare
August 12, 2009, 08:40:11 AMOk. On this one, trust me. The city needs bus shelter far more than it needs some misplaced, grossly oversized devotion to the notion of "No Camel Noses Under the Tent.
A few restrictions by ordinance on the types of advertising and we should be good to go.
As for me, I really couldnt care less if Bus Shelters featured peg legged 90 year old naked grannies doing handstands with a 900 number right next to an Old Kentucky Tavern Ad. Seriously?
Making it possible to ride a bus to work without getting soaked, struck by lightning, beaten to death by hail, or dropping from sun stroke is a stone cold necessity.
This effete hand wringing over the potential aesthetics in the face of overwhelming evidence that it can be and normally is done tastefully is just inane.
Can't we find anything else more important to object to? Like old Prince lyrics or W.C. Fields scandalous position on drinking?
Deuce
August 12, 2009, 08:48:19 AMI would be curious to know who is actually against this plan. What their exact reasons are and what they propose as an alternative.
I agree with that 100%.
Overstreet
August 12, 2009, 08:49:04 AMI enjoyed the "Bebe" ads on the bus shelters in Atlanta. Don't know what it has to do with anything to buy, but they were interesting. The Bebe I know gets senior discounts.
Traveller
August 12, 2009, 08:59:30 AMFunny you mention this. On my way to work this morning, I saw a guy fast asleep in the bus shelter on Forsyth just east of Laura. He had his own pillow and blanket and looked quite comfortable.
JeffreyS
August 12, 2009, 09:02:59 AMThis seems like a home run. A little regulation on the advertisers and emulate some of the better designed shelters will be a nice upgrade to our transit system.
TPC
August 12, 2009, 09:18:05 AMI am biased because I work in advertising, but I am all for this. It is paid for by the private sector, provides shelter for the bus users, and provides local advertising agencies with more work. Win, win, win.
stephendare
August 12, 2009, 09:19:40 AMcline
August 12, 2009, 09:50:04 AMOn a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself. It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine". It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 10:14:57 AM^I agree 100%.
hightowerlover
August 12, 2009, 10:40:03 AMI think the biggest hurdle will be convincing jacksonville residents that the bus riding public is not second class citizens and they deserve a more attractive place to sit in 100 degree heat and be covered from the persistent rain showers. if we are ever to overcome the traffic issues this city will continue to face in the future, we have to make mass transit a priority and make it attractive for people who can afford to own an automobile but, choose not to.
cdb
August 12, 2009, 11:19:19 AMBorn and raised in Brooklyn, NY. I have spent much time sitting at a bus shelter waiting on the B16 or B41 to come by. In this heat and with this rain, bus shelters are a must. And selling that ad space shouldn't be too hard. The thing that I always think about is the lack of transfers. I would take the bus to work, but I would have to walk just too far to get to the initial bus stop. You can't only route buses on the major roads, they have to cut off for convenience for many people to want to use a bus system. And most areas in Jax don't have the typical square blocks which make bus routes much easier. I am all for it, but I don't ever see Jax having a major mass transit system that will work.
shanshan1218
August 12, 2009, 11:27:52 AMI say go for it! anything is better than the random scattered "benches" we have now. The ones along roosevelt are always in like a sand pit from what i see while driving.
Ocklawaha
August 12, 2009, 02:26:42 PMI like the flavor of bold art with transportation...Just another way to get some pretty fantastic shelters built. Use the Universities, the art departments and grants from the National Endowment For The Arts.
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
August 12, 2009, 03:18:38 PMGood grief, Ock! I'd be afraid to approach that thing up there! Rather than art, what our bus shelters need are solar powered fans in them. If they cut off the rain, then they cut off the breeze too.
Ocklawaha
August 12, 2009, 05:09:32 PMNew Design, Slovakia
New Rural Design, Northwest England
Yeah man! I know this one is radical to the max, it's just another way to get it funded...for free. Add other modern art, period art, deco era, Nouveau art etc... and we also get lots of attractions with the urban sculptures. Most international first tier cities are full of sidewalk art. We lag far behind and probably over 75% of our city doesn't even have sidewalks or streetlights. At least if the Martins ever attack us in the dead of night, we'll be ignored. I'm certain that flying they're saucer's down from Mars, they'll want to knock out only the larger appearing communities. You know, like Green Cove Springs, Lulu, Two Egg, etc.
BTW, I agree with the fan idea, I'm also in support of LIGHTER colors and a wall panel in front to keep people out of the pouring rain. Butterfly roofs rather then typical arched, flat, or other designer shapes. Bus pullout lanes, with handicap access to and from the shelter which will tie them to the nearest completed sidewalk or store entry's. So in the event that JTA sees this, here is a bus shelter needs assessment:
Asheville NC
Bus Pullout lanes
Pavement marking for bus stop
LED illuminated pavement reflectors, to warn other drivers of the bus movements and intentions.
Real time information scroll, limited to the larger and/or connection shelters. Another ad space. Countdown clock scroll.
Butterfly roof's whereever possible that could overhang above the bus.
Posted system map and route schedules.
Next Bus technology, just check your cell phone.
Solar power cells on the roof.
White or reflective light color on the roof.
Tinted glass or lexan panels
corner ventilation fans - Solar Powered
#311 bus/train/Skyway/streetcar/water taxi/Cab access
Single panel in front of shelter (entry on each side) to protect passengers from blowing rain
Paved pad that extends all the way to the street and connects with sidewalk or storefront
Attached matching trash receptacle.
Camera security tapes
Smile, your on Camera
Landshut, Germany
Anyone else? Jump on in!
OCK Purple? Mood lit bus shelters by Virgin America Airlines, San Francisco
OCKLAWAHA
TheProfessor
August 12, 2009, 05:44:28 PMI know Clay Yarborough is against sponsored bus shelters. I could not convince him otherwise. I am all for more creative bus shelters.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 08:18:24 PMDoes Clay have an alternative solution to fund mass transit improvements or does he just not care?
tufsu1
August 12, 2009, 09:20:25 PMCome on Lake...why should a good religious man care about those less fortunate :-)
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 10:14:27 PMmost of jax's bus stops aren't in large, urban areas like most of the one's shown in the pics. so they'll stand out much, much more.
Here are a few images of these bus shelters in the suburbs and parks. Also, I add one of an existing bus shelter in Jacksonville. Which one looks more appealing and maintained (Public or Private with ads)?
Back in Jacksonville
The shelters and benches shown in the top four images don't cost the taxpayer a thing. We have to pay for what's shown in the last image....and we can't afford them!
TheProfessor
August 12, 2009, 10:56:04 PMAll Clay Yarborough cares about is "protecting family values". He forgets that not everyone is married with children and that this status quo in his head is not the future.
Charles Hunter
August 12, 2009, 11:01:59 PMI don't remember if it's been said here, but I've heard that there won't be any advertising shelters in residential areas - just in commercial zones.
Bill Brinton and John Crescembeni are the leading opposition to ad shelters - they were behind the referendum that got the sign restrictions written into the Charter. They really do fear the "camels nose under the tent" (good phrase, stephen!). I would guess that, despite the ruling in California, one or more billboard companies here would file suit as soon as the first ad shelter went up. Legal fees - who pays?
I don't understand Clay's opposition, unless he's listening to Crescembini.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 11:06:24 PMIs there no other municipality in the United States with a similar sign restriction that has faced this situation?
I can understand the "camel's nose under the tent" issue, but I would at least like these guys to present a viable alternative solution along with their opposition. The status quo sucks and keeping it is a misjustice to the entire city and it's fiscal future.
zoo
August 13, 2009, 06:33:28 AMShelters, yes. Advertising, yes. COJ still hasn't figured out that if it wants public-private partnerships, the private part of it has to get something in return -- revenue or marketing value. The charity kick isn't reality.
Chuckled at the image of the shelter in Toronto with what looked like a Calvin Klein ad on it (dude bare but for underwear) -- I didn't see any of the pedestrian's around it going up in flames on their way to damnation for being exposed to it.
"On a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself. It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine". It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board."
This is also a great idea, and one that would work for Springfield's faux trolley line. Innovative thinking seems to have taken leave of Jax's govt and major corporations.
Deuce
August 13, 2009, 09:35:48 AMIf the only thing that a person can come up with for being against bus shelters is "protecting family values" then they don't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure JTA already has a policy that states what's allowed in advertising on their buses and I'm sure the same will apply to the shelters. I have been in a lot of major cities and I've never seen advertising in a public space that somehow violated family values. I've seen Hooters ads on buses here and I've not heard any complaints. With giant billboards for Dick's Wings and Insurrection around town, what do they think is going to be advertised on these shelters, Hustler magazine.
BridgeTroll
August 13, 2009, 09:40:54 AMhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel's_nose
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The camel's nose is a metaphor for a situation where permitting some small undesirable situation will allow gradual and unavoidable worsening. A typical usage is this, from U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in 1958:
This bill and the foregoing remarks of the majority remind me of an old Arabian proverb: "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow." If adopted, the legislation will mark the inception of aid, supervision, and ultimately control of education in this country by the federal authorities.[1]
According to Geoffrey Nunberg, the image entered the English language in the middle of the 19th century.[2] An early example is a fable printed in 1858 in which an Arab miller allows a camel to stick its nose into his bedroom, then other parts of its body, until the camel is entirely inside and refuses to leave.[3] Lydia Sigourney wrote another version, a widely reprinted poem for children, in which the camel enters a shop because the workman does not forbid it at any stage.[4]
The 1858 example above says, "The Arabs repeat a fable," and Sigourney says in a footnote, "To illustrate the danger of the first approach of evil habit, the Arabs have a proverb, "Beware of the camel's nose". However, Nunberg could not find an Arab source for the saying and suspected it was a Victorian invention.[2]
An early citation with a tent is "The camel in the Arabian tale begged and received permission to insert his nose into the desert tent."[5] By 1878, the expression was familiar enough that part of the story could be left unstated. "It is the humble petition of the camel, who only asks that he may put his nose into the traveler's tent. It is so pitiful, so modest, that we must needs relent and grant it."[6]
In a 1915 book of fables by Horace Scudder, the story, titled The Arab and His Camel, ends with the moral: "It is a wise rule to resist the beginnings of evil."[7]
There are a number of other metaphors and expressions which refer to small changes leading to chains of events with undesirable or unexpected consequences, differing in nuances.
Foot in the door - a persuasion technique
Slippery slope - an argument, sometimes fallacious
"The thin end of the wedge"'
Domino effect
For Want of a Nail (proverb) - the claim that large consequences may follow from inattention to small details
Boiling frog
"Give them an inch; they'll take a mile"[8] The original saying goes "Give them an inch, and they'll take an ell".
In Chinese culture, the "inch-mile" saying corresponds to the expression 得陇望蜀 (De Long Wang Shu), which is a quotation from the Book of Later Han about a Chinese general who took over Long (now Gansu) only to pursue further southwards into Shu (now Sichuan).[9]
For comparison, positive consequences may start from small acts, and there is a similar set of sayings like Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching:[citation needed] "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" (or "A journey of a thousand li begins with a single step").
Relating this sentiment in idiom to scientific observation, the notion that large-scale phenomena may be affected by tiny initial incidents is the essence of chaos theory. However, in all the examples above, the result of the tiny initial incident is supposed to be predictable, unlike in chaos theory.
5PointsGuy
August 16, 2009, 08:43:19 PMHow about we get some companies to sponsor these ... http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/san-fransiscos.php
San Francisco's solar powered bus stops spread Wi-Fi all over
For anyone who relies on public transportation, that dedicated, low power lighting sounds great during a late night commute. For everyone else, a city-wide blanket of Wi-Fi is just awesome. The stops also give whatever energy they don't use back to the grid, and are built using mostly recycled materials. Check out more of them in the gallery down below.
tufsu1
August 16, 2009, 09:23:19 PMthat would be the problem 5PointsGuy...the City won't allow outdoor advertising...which takes away the incentive for a company to sponsor and/or install the shelters
Ocklawaha
August 16, 2009, 11:41:28 PMYeah, these dudes would DIE if they saw the transit ad's we took on in Colombia! Even one for PETA about those mean old Yankee's visiting bull fights! HA! HA!
OCKLAWAHA
PS: Jet Blue is running a special if you want to visit! hee hee!
Ocklawaha
August 18, 2009, 11:13:03 AMLet our friends at the City Council upgrade our lives with BUS SHELTERS. Check out what San Francisco has cooked up for their advertiser paid shelters:
San Francisco debuts solar-powered bus shelter design
While many cities have been working to green their public transportation systems, rolling out hybrid buses, electric-vehicle fleets, and the like, San Francisco is one of the first to tackle that humdrum piece of transit street furniture: the bus shelter.
Mayor Gavin Newsom has cut the ribbon on the first of 1,200 new bus shelters the city plans to install over the next five years, and a third of them will be powered by solar arrays mounted on distinctive, wavelike canopies. The transparent, LED-lit unit, by local architecture firm Lundberg Design, was the winning entry in the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency’s design competition for the shelters, which drew 35 submissions.
Taking its cue from the shape of seismic shock waves, the canopy is made of recycled, 40 percent post-industrial polycarbonate, with a ribbon of solar cells running down its center. The photovoltaic (PV) material supplies power to a LED arrival-time display and to a push-button loudspeaker for visually impaired riders, with extra power being fed back into the grid. The architects were charged with designing a structure in three different sizes to suit a range of neighborhoods and inclines, so the 70 percent reclaimed steel frame uses a bolted assembly that references the city’s bridges and can expand from two panels to four. Convex bench seats shed debris and moisture, while also discouraging patrons from reclining—perhaps while using the shelter’s handy, integrated WiFi.
.
As the remaining units are rolled out over the coming years, the city and project sponsor Clear Channel—which is funding the fabrication of the new shelters in return for a share of the advertising revenue over the next 15 years—expect them to become not only a symbol of San Francisco’s sustainable future, but also a model for public transit systems across the country. And at $25,000 to $30,000 each, they’re also a model of what the right sponsor can do for a city’s image.
Jennifer Krichels
Sometimes it's just better to try and compete with Middleburg, Yulee, Lulu and Two Egg... If we can't run with the big dogs, we should perhaps stay on the porch.
OCKLAWAHA
BridgeTroll
August 18, 2009, 12:25:50 PMIf solar power can power a bus stop in San Fran... I imagine they could power a whole city block in Jacksonville!
CS Foltz
August 23, 2009, 01:53:07 PMI would be much more happy with buss stops that do not impede traffic flow for cars! Most of the stops in my world have no pull off area for the passengers to enter or leave. To say this stops traffic flow is blunt and direct!The City could do much better. If they are planning to expand Bay Meadows, which they are at some point, I would bet money that has not been taken into consideration since the norm for the City appears to be a lack of vision....planning and economical use of our money!
Lunican
September 22, 2009, 03:06:43 PMCouncilman Michael Corrigan: “I do not support Councilmember Jones’s Bus Shelter Bill. I further commit to help my fellow Councilmembers understand the potential broad damage of allowing advertising on bus shelters.”
Councilman Bill Bishop: “Please be assured that I will vote “NO” on legislation that would allow advertising on bus shelters. Please also note that I am a co-sponsor of Council Member Criscimbeni’s bill to explicity state that advertising be prohibited from bus shelters.”
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=84
BridgeTroll
September 22, 2009, 03:14:46 PMUnreal... no explanation... just... NO!
stephendare
September 22, 2009, 03:28:16 PMthats the RAP newsletter. Jones has the votes. RAP is concerned about the tackiness factor, and that a provision would over ride their special overlay.
So in pursuit of that they want to defeat a bill that would primarily affect the rest of the city that doesnt have their zoning overlay in place.
This is silly and a little selfish.
I see nothing wrong with the points that they make. Visual obstruction et al, but that would also affect a hella lot of beautiful shrubbery and trees in that neighborhood as well.
Hopefully Jones keeps his majority.
Seems like their councilmen would be better served trying to figure out how to fit historic language into the bill.
JeffreyS
September 22, 2009, 03:32:01 PMHaving sign on locations the city deems appropriate with content they review and approve and zoning out many areas seems like an easy compromise.
stephendare
September 22, 2009, 03:36:50 PMAnd its not like advertising tater tots, halter tops and el camino's would be a sensible choice in avondale anyways.
Its more of a Humboldt fog and Claret market with the occasional go go boy thrown in for good measure.
Dog Walker
September 22, 2009, 03:40:43 PMNo, no! I want ads like the one's Ock posted above!
urbanlibertarian
September 22, 2009, 08:13:28 PMWhy not let each district council person decide what goes in their district? Why would constituents in the rest of the city care about bus stop shelters and advertising in the neighborhoods where people actually ride the bus?
thelakelander
September 22, 2009, 10:58:51 PMRiverside should just opt out of it. If they want bus shelters, they can raise the money for the structures in their district on their own. No need to penalize the whole community. As a matter of fact, maybe JTA should just not agree to put them in historic districts, thus eliminating Riverside/Avondale and Springfield from the discussion.
mtraininjax
September 23, 2009, 04:10:40 AMIn Riverside, I'd personally like to see scantily clad women advertising for the Gold Club, Wackos or any of the "classy" showbars in Jax. Half-neked babes in Riverside would be a plus for me!
CS Foltz
September 23, 2009, 07:08:11 AMBus Shelters could be designed to integrate within tasteful boundaries. JTA needs to think out of the box and then some.............I am more concerned with having bus's stop in the middle of the road to do their passenger thing and holding up traffic than I am with a covered stop for people waiting to ride the bus! That won't be corrected either! Are there more important things to concern ourselves with?
Dog Walker
September 23, 2009, 08:41:54 AMLet's see. You are in the middle of a commercial district. All around you are signs for the businesses and posters in their windows and on the light posts. You're going to worry about a couple of signs on a bus shelter? Givitabreak!
CS Foltz
September 24, 2009, 06:34:22 AMI just love it when some on the Council says "NO" and can not explain their position. I have not heard yet what Mr Meserve has to say about it...........looking forward to that I am!
JeffreyS
September 24, 2009, 07:38:27 AMIt is fear mongering politics. They know a reasonable strategy exists area exemption, local approval or zoning ect. To give a reasonable response gets their voters to say ok good job but not very impressed or memorable. However if said politician has saved their neighborhood from posters covering their area with a minority dressed as a stripper, smoking Newport's and drinking Courvoisier you just have to reelect that crusader.
CS Foltz
September 24, 2009, 08:21:05 PMI don't understand the problem............Design two models.....one for historic area, one for general public,use City Engineers to design,City workers to assemble and install..........end of problem! No advertising unless Districts give green light through voter referendum for their District! End of problem.......what is so flipping hard?
Steve
September 24, 2009, 09:54:36 PMIt's a little more complicated than that (isn't that always the case?). The shelters would be installed for free by a private company (someone like a JCDecaux, Clear Channel, or Lamar). They are the ones installing the shelters, not the city.
I get RAP's position. I don't want this killed for the community, but in talking to some folks earlier this week, ther were rumors that the Historic Districts would be able to opt out of it. If that is the case, then that's probably the best thing for RAP to do.
Remember, if they don't, and they put something non-historic looking in a street, it could cause a precedence issue (the bus shelters are there, so let's put ________ in on Post St.). As the legislation is written, it is not really written with historic districts in mind. My guess is that is a major reason why Corrigan is not for this.
CS Foltz
September 25, 2009, 06:30:05 AMSteve.....I understand, its always more complicated then it needs to be! Well uncomplicate it! Lets not only streamline the possible structures but simplefy the installing? I can see where advertising would give the COJ some return or JTA but we are talking about a simple shelter for protection from the elements. Johnny wants to spend 29 Million dollars on Metro Part for upgrades not needed so hold on that and use that money for shelters! Historical District should not have to opt out, they are part of the City also.......this reminds me of cell phone towers...........everyone wants service but don't want a tower in their back yard. Thats why they make fake tree's that are full service structures!
tufsu1
September 25, 2009, 08:38:43 AMthe shelters are JTA, not the City....and JTA doesn't have the money...so the only way they get done is to have a prvate company install them....and that company will want the ad revenue to offset the cost.
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 09:21:34 AMtusfs1, there was an article in the Folio that JTA is sitting on $72 million that is not earmarked for any use. I don't agree but if they exist, Bill Bishop wants these funds to be used for shelters instead of working with private companies to pay, install and maintain them. What's your take on this?
tufsu1
September 25, 2009, 09:39:26 AMI had not heard about the $72 million, but it seems to me this would be better ued to start/finish some major projects around town....my list would include:
1. Streetcar Implementation
2. Commuter Rail Environmental Studies
3. Enhanced Bus Service (better headways)
4. JTB/I-95 Interchange
Dog Walker
September 25, 2009, 10:14:36 AMBet you that OCK can come up with pictures of historic streetcar shelters that would fit right in to Riverside and Springfield with or without advertising. OCK, are you there?
On the other hand, maybe the streetcars ran so frequently that you never had more than a ten minute wait for one and shelters were unnecessary. When you have to wait thirty minutes or an hour, you need shelter and a place to sit.
fsujax
September 25, 2009, 10:19:48 AMI like the list tufsu1....Let's get started!!
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 10:30:27 AM1. Streetcar Implementation
2. Commuter Rail Environmental Studies
3. Enhanced Bus Service (better headways)
4. JTB/I-95 Interchange
Here's a link to another story about it: http://jaxpoliticsonline.com/2009/09/23/jta-the-mysterious-72-million-stash/
Ocklawaha
September 25, 2009, 10:45:47 AMOn the other hand, maybe the streetcars ran so frequently that you never had more than a ten minute wait for one and shelters were unnecessary. When you have to wait thirty minutes or an hour, you need shelter and a place to sit.
Headways downtown were every 5 minutes, after the city complained that the waits for 8 minute streetcars was too much to bear.
Here's your classic streetcar stop, sort of looks like old Ortega - Riverside, doesn't it?
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
September 25, 2009, 11:14:10 AMOCKLAWAHA
5 Minutes!!!! Makes you want to weep with envy.
CS Foltz
September 25, 2009, 12:35:01 PMAdministration back when they did have street cars and the like at least made use of what they had! Current Administration is only good for spending my tax dollars without peer! No vision........no plans.......no sense!
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 05:47:46 PMLegislation has been introduced to the City Council that would amend the regulations concerning signage on public right of ways to allow advertising on the JTA’s shelters that serve bus and trolley riders. Thursday the Downtown Development Review Board of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission considered a recommendation that the ordinance be amended. The item was on the agenda because the DDRB is charged with acting as the City’s Planning Commission for matters that affect the area within the Downtown Overlay.
JEDC Deputy Executive Director Paul Crawford explained to the members before the discussion began that the legislation filed by several Council members that would allow the advertising required a finding by the DDRB and that a second recommendation would be filed by the Planning Commission that will address the rest of the county. He also said, “This is not something the JEDC has put forth. This is the JTA working with the City Council.”
full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529156
Ocklawaha
September 25, 2009, 07:29:32 PMFrankly a read of the newspapers pre-WWII is like reading the LA times or Chicago Tribune. One get the image of a polished booming city with industry to spare, and energy to become the next Sao Paolo. Sad that somewhere right after the war, this town had a major brain fart and ceased to be progressive. It was in the armpit of the Great Frog, in the 1960's when the school system lost all state accreditation, Consolidation was a hail Mary pass to try and save something from the ashes.
Very interesting Lakelander. So JTA CAN work with the City Council for approval to get bus shelters with advertising on them, but can't work with them to tap the mystery money so we could enjoy the 5 BILLION dollar boom Phoenix is having around it's light rail.
My fear is that if we wait too long, the novelty of LRT might wear down to a point where "everybody's doing it" and thus the economic boom would be lower.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 08:27:23 PMJust about everybody is doing it. If we hop on board, we'll benefit also. My fear is that we'll miss the financing boat if we can't make a true commitment while Obama is still in office.
CS Foltz
September 26, 2009, 06:39:25 AMlake and Ock...........both of you hit the nail on the head! A day late and a dollar short is the direction we are going. If we can not convince someone in the inner circle rail, in any shape or form, is a plus for any City then we are wasting effort! I don't care who or what takes the lead but someone needs to step and get things going! We can discuss this till the cows come home but somewhere sometime someone needs to take charge and get it done! I hope it's soon!
blizz01
October 27, 2009, 06:56:20 PMDid anyone catch this in today's Daily Record? The signage looks great, however, it seems like they're getting ahead of themselves if the shelters are on the way too.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529423
CS Foltz
October 27, 2009, 08:02:19 PMEveryone seems to have forgotten about the $73 Million Dollars that JTA just happen to find in someones desk or unused bank account............my point is why are we waiting till we get an "Advertiser" to fund bus stop shelters? JTA has the money on hand and if they don't have shelters in stock stored somewhere, then someone is not doing their job! The advertising verbage pertains to commercial advertising in conjunction with more shelters...........I mean we can spend $600k+ on a new bus that will most always not be full to its 60 + person capacity and you mean to tell me that JTA has no prefabbed shelters available? How many new bus's were bought?......this is a case for prioritizing and JTA is not doing their job......one bus could have paid for several shelters....if they were on a average of $2200 per shelter and labor cost to assemble was $300.....that's more than one shelter for sure is it not?
stjr
October 27, 2009, 08:15:41 PMSo JTA CAN work with the City Council for approval to get bus shelters with advertising on them, but can't work with them to tap the mystery money so we could enjoy the 5 BILLION dollar boom Phoenix is having around it's light rail.
JTA didn't "work" with the City Council for approval of bus shelters, they out and out MISLED them with misinformation. Don't worry, give them some time, and they will have some cooked books out of the oven soon for the next item on their want list. We'll see how that "works" with the City Council.
CS Foltz
October 27, 2009, 08:25:35 PMstjr I agree! JTA has not been forthcoming with their numbers by any stretch of the imagination! I am looking forward to the first "Law Suit" so when it hits the fans.......I want to be standing behind a Council member for cover! The so-called Mayor has given this his stamp of approval which means .....won't be long before it hits the proverbial fan!
tufsu1
October 27, 2009, 08:49:01 PMone big problem...each shelter is more like $6,000 and often costs about the same to install (given that concrete pads have to be poured)...and remember, these are real basic shelters...;larger, nicer ones can cost $25,000 or more.
stjr
October 27, 2009, 09:34:06 PMTufsu, just checking. You aren't getting your numbers from JTA are you?
thelakelander
October 27, 2009, 10:03:11 PMAccording to Mike Miller, the Springfield shelters cost $40,000 a piece.
Imo, if JTA has $73 million in cash laying around, that money should go towards transit improvements that the private sector is not immediately willing to finance. In other words, I'd go with advertising on shelters and shift the entire $73 million to getting something like a streetcar system out of the ground.
You have a point. The signs are nice but this something that could be worked into the design of the new shelters and paid with by private money.
stjr
October 27, 2009, 10:55:12 PMIf that's true, I doubt even the advertising will pay for such a shelter. Expect to hear that any ad company will limit the value of a shelter they will pay for. It will be interesting to see what that number is and what type of shelter you can buy for it. Jax isn't exactly New York when it comes to bus shelter sign views
You have a point. The signs are nice but this something that could be worked into the design of the new shelters and paid with by private money.
Another example of JTA incompetence. Yes, the signs look great but knowing the shelters are to be upgraded and expanded, you would think, after all these years, they could have waited just a little longer for the signs to be attached to all those new shelters. I bet these signs cost at least $1,000 to $2,000 each, installed. How about it Tufsu? I thought money was tight at JTA.
CS Foltz
October 28, 2009, 06:52:44 AM40K for a Historical District shelter seems abit much and 6K for a standardized shelter also seems a bit much, concrete not withstanding! I doubt if there is any heavy rebar in the slab and most of the structure should be aluminum which would mean self drilling,self tapping hardware. Some caulk to seal roof sections and poof! Shelter should not cost $6k per shelter even in todays materials cost market! Standardizing would lower cost even more, but that's just my take!
thelakelander
October 28, 2009, 07:08:56 AMThe easiest way to find out the cost of a shelter and maintainence is to call one of the companies in the business. Try contacting JCDecaux North America: http://www.jcdecauxna.com/pages/Default.aspx
tufsu1
October 28, 2009, 08:01:36 AMAnother few sites for research
http://www.sheltersdirect.com/transitShelters.php
http://www.handi-hut.com/?gclid=CKqNrvDY350CFQRM5QodPlGrPA
CS Foltz
October 28, 2009, 08:08:54 PMHay guys....thanks for the links.....gonna start cking now! Numbers just don't make sense to me based on what I've seen! Something on 4 posts with a roof, made of aluminum is about as cheap as you could do it! Wood might be cheaper but not sure......will look into it and go from there!
blizz01
October 29, 2009, 04:11:09 PMJTA says it will put the brakes on bus shelters with ads
Earlier this month, the City Council amended its sign law to allow the Jacksonville Transportation Authority to build bus shelters with advertisements. JTA wanted to hire a private sign company to build and maintain shelters in the city.
The amendment was strongly opposed by people who pushed for a stronger sign law in the 1980s. At Thursday’s board meeting, chairwoman Ava Parker announced that JTA would delay moving forward with hiring a sign company until at least January. JTA will meet with opponents of the amending the sign law and ask them to suggest ways that bus shelters can be built and maintained without the assistance of a private sign company.
Parker said JTA was still committed to constructing more bus shelters.
But the negative reaction made the board decide to step back and work with people who thought it was a bad idea, Parker said.
“We’ve studied this issue and believe we came up with the best solution,” she said. “But it’s possible there are better ideas out there and we want to hear what they are.”
http://jacksonville.com/news/2009-10-29/story/jta_says_it_will_put_the_brakes_on_bus_shelters_with_ads
thelakelander
October 29, 2009, 04:24:33 PMstjr
October 29, 2009, 06:41:14 PMDid I tell ya' so? I will give JTA kudo's for being big enough to back down and admit a problem. Best thing they have done in a while.
When you consider the opposition, the mistated bus shelter data, the advice of the real legal experts on billboards, the economic feasibility of ads funding what was promised and/or needed, etc., I think this is the only action JTA should take presently.
I will remind you that JTA may be able to fund the shelters in other ways, not the least of which is taking the funds used to operate the useless $ky-high-way and apply them toward assisting thousands more bus riders and maybe even adding a few with the added amenities. Now, that would be a major win-win for everyone!
Failing that, I have already pointed out ways other communities have found to fund shelters. Stimulus dollars, corporate underwriting, downtown development agencies, community groups, redirected funds from lesser priorities, etc. Being creative, I am sure we can do the same.
JeffreyS
October 29, 2009, 06:53:53 PMYou think any council members who put themselves out there for the JTA might now hesitate to do so again?
stjr
October 29, 2009, 07:04:42 PMMaybe. They need to be independent thinkers, not rubber stampers or special interest advocates. If this teaches them that lesson, we, as a community, will be better for it. Same with any other "errors in our ways" such as Jack Webb's missteps.
Part of atoning for mistakes is that we admit to them and learn to do better next time. That's why knowing our past is so critical to insuring our future!
Ocklawaha
October 29, 2009, 07:10:05 PMHells Bells Lake, these things come in more shapes and designs then a Disney Fantasy movie... From cool little mushrooms, to giant heated/AC size micro-stations. You simply choose the product that fits the market and location... Damn, this stuff isn't that hard people.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
October 29, 2009, 07:13:29 PMOnly in Jax, lol. I'll be looking forward to seeing what they come up with.
JeffreyS
October 30, 2009, 12:15:34 AMI wonder how much the study cost that determined the ads were the best way to go.
JeffreyS
October 30, 2009, 12:18:57 AMI feel like our fit about getting transit has totally had it's ass kicked by the people who do not want the shelters fit.
Ocklawaha
October 30, 2009, 12:44:58 AMTo HELL WITH STUDIES, have ideas and make executive decisions, that's what they pay me for in Colombia! You STUDY in school, in class, or on-the-job, in the field you follow CCTT's motto. (CCTT=Transport and Technology Corporation of Colombia)
"ACT, Inertia Doesn't Move/Change"
This stuff just ISN'T THAT HARD! Your right Lake, ONLY IN JACKSONVILLE! y Pasto!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
October 30, 2009, 06:11:51 AMGentlemen...........I concur! JTA is back pedaling big time and the bozo's did not even have a Plan B either! When in doubt have a study done seems to be the way most of the City's Agencies operate and I just can not understand it! No one has returned my E Mail request to the 3 Companies you guys provided the links for yet and when they do I will post that info. Somehow I think $12K per shelter is an inflated figure and I am trying to find out just where. One of the principals of manufacturing is standardization both in materials and design which allows a cost effective product to any customer and I am still scratching my head as to why a simple shelter would cost so much.................it doesn't make sense!
tufsu1
October 30, 2009, 08:00:08 AMI'm not sure they are getting off this idea yet...just taking a pause to let things cool down a bit....I still expect to see the board give JTA staff the go-ahead and this to be pursued sometime next year.
Either way, at least they now have the ability to do this at some point in the future if they so choose.
fsujax
October 30, 2009, 08:25:31 AMGod forbid we act like a big city and have advertisements on bus shelters. How frustrating!
CS Foltz
November 01, 2009, 10:52:40 AMGentlemen............I could care less about "Advertisements" that I would not read while traveling on the roads! I have yet to see anything that substantiates advertising on either bus's or shelters so any company that participates maybe expecting lots of traffic from advertising but I say - It ain't so Joe! Any so-called numbers can be juggled or presented in the best light strictly depending on how the question is asked! Some of us question any information presented by a poll or a survey and I understand why............because I do too!
Dog Walker
November 01, 2009, 12:01:27 PMBut JTA is always so precise and accurate in it's reported numbers and projections! (That's sarcasm, folks!)
JaxNole
November 01, 2009, 12:34:47 PMI disagree with RAP's stance against ad-supported bus shelters. As part of their objective to promote less dependence on automobiles, improved and upgraded bus shelters would support this goal.
The ads won't be flashing neon (Times Square) nor of soft porn. Advertising abounds in the historic district so why not jump on the opportunity to fund bus shelters since there are so many bus stops in the area?
thelakelander
November 10, 2009, 06:31:37 AMBy Phil FretzStory updated at 7:57 AM on Monday, Nov. 9, 2009
Here we go again …
For four long years, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority sought City Council permission to finance construction and maintenance of bus shelters by selling advertising on them.
And, for as many years, opponents lobbied against it, saying they wanted time to explore other financing options.
Finally, the council gave its approval. And, two weeks later, the opponents were back.
They wanted time to explore other financing options.
Wouldn’t you just know it?
Let’s see. The city has about 3,500 bus stop sites and, according to the JTA, only 340 have roofs.
And, as we all know, it rains quite a bit here in Florida.
It costs $4,000 or more to build a shelter and $1,200 a year to maintain it, the JTA says.
Where is JTA going to get the money without selling ads, cutting needed road work or scaling back bus service?
If the opponents finally have a workable idea, let’s hear it.
But have a sense of urgency. That elusive pot of money, if they can find it, must be big enough to get the job done — and it has to come in what JTA spokesman Mike Miller calls a “sustainable stream.”
That means enough money must pour in, automatically, to build and maintain 50 shelters every year for 20 years.
That rules out applications for federal grants or stimulus money. It rules out annual appropriations from the City Council.
And it certainly rules out “hope and a prayer” projects like asking for donations.
Miller says the JTA will forge ahead with the advertising project as soon as all the necessary paperwork is completed, in about 90 days, unless opponents come up with a really viable alternative before then.
Don’t hold your breath.
Bus riders are getting wet. They’re catching colds. Some are getting sick.
No more stalling. Get the job done.
If the “visual clutter” ruins someone’s carefully crafted sense of ambience, so be it. Maybe poor people won’t have to spend so much money on cold medication.
Less ambience for better health.
That sounds like a pretty good trade-off, to me.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/phil_fretz/2009-11-09/story/let%E2%80%99s_have_a_little_sympathy_for_those_who_ride_the_b
CS Foltz
November 10, 2009, 06:50:49 AMIt would seem to me that JTA has taken the easy way out...........no money equals no shelters! However we seem to find the money we need for new bus's! If one bus was delayed in procurement that would be $600k available for new shelters and maintenance, even though I have never seen a shelter being maintained or cleaned by anyone! This makes me believe that possibly that is just one more waste of our tax dollars given to someone somewhere for doing nothing! What is the criteria to get a shelter and who makes that decision based upon what information............does anyone know?
tufsu1
November 10, 2009, 10:01:42 AMMoney for new buses comes from capital outlays from FTA and FDOT....bus shelters can not be funded this way
tufsu1
November 10, 2009, 02:52:16 PMMaybe JTA should contract w/ this guy
http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/decomposed-school-buses-resurrected-for-bus-shelter/
JeffreyS
November 10, 2009, 02:55:14 PMI like it.
CS Foltz
November 10, 2009, 11:01:48 PMI don't believe that JTA has ever requested bids .......atleast not from an advertisement in the TU! Infact City Hall likes that tactic.....they don't use the TU all the time, they have a habit of using the Legal Gazette or whatever the hell the Lawyers Weekly is called!
Charles Hunter
November 10, 2009, 11:11:34 PMRequested bids for what? I would imagine the TU has a set ad rate, and if JTA wants to reach those readers, the get to pay the TU rate. I also imagine that if they (or any advertiser) buys a lot of space, they get a discount.
Oh, wait, are you saying JTA does not bid out the things they buy? I think, as a condition of the Federal funds they get, they have to bid. You are probably right, that most of the ads aren't in the TU - not a whole lot of bus builders who read the TU.
stjr
November 10, 2009, 11:46:14 PMWell, we can rehash this whole debate again or people can go back and read this and the other 2 or 3 threads already existing on this subject.
JTA has the money, they just chose to spend it otherwise. Look at their benefits/pensions of 50% of payroll and the subsidy of $20,000 per rider per year (total of about $14 million) they waste on the $ky-high-way. They manage to find all the money they need for these things without yelling and screaming.
And, if they can get Fed funds for buses and roads, they probably could scrounge some up for shelters. After all, that's part of running a viable bus system. I bet the Feds paid for the $ky-high-way stations, not just the track, because one is needed to support the other. Likewise, with shelters. But, you know, you don't get if you don't ask.
As to advertising dollars being predictable revenue streams, go ask newspapers, TV, radio, and sport promoters how reliable advertising dollars are today. Sorry, there are no guarantees in life.
By the way, I have yet to see an article quoting JTA about exactly what kind of revenue bus shelter ads will provide to accomplish their goals. It would appear it would take at least $150 to $200 or more dollars per MONTH per SHELTER to cover maintenance, depreciation, financing, and administration using $1,200 maintenance per year per shelter and $4,000+ per new shelter. And, that's an "el cheapo" shelter. (JTA has said better ones can cost north of $12,000. What are we looking for?). So, as an advertiser, are you willing to pay that rate or better for a shelter on the corner of Moncrief that mainly is seen by the same few dozen bus riders at a given stop all year long? Or, likely, even less riders at a stop on San Jose in Mandarin? What's the ad market like for that?
CS Foltz
November 11, 2009, 05:52:52 AMstjr you have stumbled on something that I have asked about several times! tufsu1 seems to have all of the answers but he has yet to come out with that one.......what I had asked was simple - How much revenue does the advertising generate from the bus emblazoned ads and the shelters? How much of the public responds to both advertising venues, I mean who has called on a business due to the add they saw on a bus? Somehow both ,from what I see, only generate income for the "Advertising Company" who charge more for the service than what that form of advertising brings in customerwise! The only person making out in that situation is Clear Channel or Lamar or whoever is in the Advertising game.......and it is just one more shell game for sure! JTA could and should come up with the money for more shelters, it should not be "Riders taking up a collection" in order to have some protection from the elements............no shelters equals no riders.....which is better?
tufsu1
November 11, 2009, 08:03:25 AMCS....ad companies don't charge JTA to put stuff on buses....they pay JTA...So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA
And this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.
stjr
November 11, 2009, 12:52:22 PMTufsu, you must not have run a business. Businesses want results for their money. They aren't going to buy these ads if they can spend the money elsewhere with far better results. You and JTA are not answering the questions asked. How does the revenue brought in from ads match up with the expenses of building and maintaining the shelters? For all we know, this could just be a JTA pipe dream. "Show us the money!"
If it was a perfect example of public/private, we wouldn't have the level of opposition we are seeing. It's only "perfect" in the minds of certain beholders such as yourself.
As to alternative funding, again you and others are dancing around the obvious sources I highlighted above.
Further, all the funding sources available for mass transit system should also cover bus shelters. Why? Because bus shelters should be viewed as an integral component of a bus transit system, just like railroad stations, terminals, the $ky-high-way stations, etc. It's just plain stupid, a red herring, and maybe discriminatory, that bus shelters are treated differently than other transit infrastructure.
JTA isn't shooting straight with us. Starting with the fallacious bus stop and maintenance numbers and relying on an attorney with a conflict of interest to disregard outside experts about billboard issues. And, continuing on with the above. The number of gullible and unquestioning public officials we have is why Jax can't ever dig out of some of these holes.
CS Foltz
November 11, 2009, 08:50:44 PMtufsu1 .....whether or not someone pays JTA to put their ad's on any bus is immaterial! Of course JTA will take their money ....it's free money for JTA!! Which does not answer my question of "How much money does JTA receive for letting anyone place an Ad for anything on a bus that we own?" Also like stjr has stated, bus shelters should be an integral part of a bus transportation system.........so why must that be an additional charge or separate funding? Now you want a revenue source to pay for shelters and the maintenance there off.........how about charging the riders double what they are charged now.....One dollar to ride and One dollar to pay for a bus stop? I mean there is no such thing as a free ride for anyone even though COJ does subsidize JTA right? I mean I seem to remember something about the Budget for JTA being passed without review or discussion and that was the operating budget that they asked for right? How come there was no money for shelters in the Budget? New bus's yeah.......new roads oh yeah but shelters..............these people are professionals huh? Makes me wonder just how many AIMO's are running that organization.
tufsu1
November 11, 2009, 09:48:19 PM1. JTA's budget does include money for shelters....but only enough for 10-20 per year
2. JTA, as currently constructed, primarily serves those people who have few other transprtation options...I'm thinking an increase to $2 per trip might put quite a burden for those on fixed incomes.
Maybe we should hire you to run JTA...it sounds like you'd be willing to do it for around $50,000....that would save some money for shelters.
urbanlibertarian
November 11, 2009, 10:01:48 PMBus shelters paid for by the advertising are a win-win-lose (win for bus riders, win for advertisers and lose for people offended by advertising). 2 outta 3 aint bad.
CS Foltz
November 12, 2009, 06:31:57 AMYou did ask for a revenue source right? Mayor Johnny has no qualm about "Feeing" the public in an effort to balance the books.............why did you not question that? To me there is no difference between the two situations........JTA's Budget was passed without comment or discussion..........if there are, as you say, 10 to 20 shelters per year then they have the money for that many.......which by the way I have to ask......where are those shelters being built? I have never seen any new ones going in any where and I used to travel quite abit all around town due to the work I did at that time. I was forcibly retired and would not consider running JTA since $50K a year is too much for an Agency which appears lost and has no plan. I mean bus's, with no shelters and having Ad's to pay for the shelters.......you still did not say anything about "How much money does the Advertising bring to JTA for free"? You sure your not a politician.....skirting around a direct question shows me you have talent.......planning on running for Mayor?
civil42806
November 12, 2009, 07:05:00 AM16 year old girls