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What is Ordinance 2009-401?
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In summary, Ord. 2009-401 would give JTA the approval it needs to allow advertising on transit shelters. We would like to join dozens of other transit agencies and cities across the country, in increasing the number of transit shelters for our current riders and to attract new transit riders, and do so at no cost to the taxpayer. This is a classic case of a public agency entering into a public/private partnership to offer services people need without using scarce tax dollars. After all, we sell naming rights to stadiums, arenas and ball parks to offset a portion of the operational costs of those facilities. The shelter company would enter into a long term agreement with JTA and install and maintain a minimum number of shelters each year over the course of the contract. The shelter locations would be approved by the transit agency and placed at stops where the number of riders make it warranted. The shelter company would sell ads on one side of the shelter to recover their capital and operational costs. All ads must be approved by JTA and fall within JTA's Board of Directors Advertising Policy. The purpose of this proposal is not to fill the city with unwanted advertising, its to build more shelters. We currently have 400 shelters and over 6,000 bus stops. We believe our riders deserve better as does CM Jones and the nine additional council members who've put their name on this bill.
Mike Miller, JTA Director of External Affairs
Gimme Shelter
A brief video by JTA explaining why its time to support a bill that adds hundreds of new bus shelters at no cost to taxpayers.
Improving an economic development weakness
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View from a Competitor
Florida Trend asked an economic development professional in a market that competes with Jacksonville to assess the city’s strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths:
”Jacksonville has been linked ‘to a great sea by a great river’ since its beginning days. With the widening of the Panama Canal, scheduled for completion in 2014, Jacksonville is poised to assume an even more powerful leadership role in the coming era of giant cargo ships. But its greatest strength is its model of government, created in 1968. Jacksonville is today the envy of civic, business and governmental leaders from across our state, since its one-stop-style-of-local-government makes doing things in Jacksonville easy when compared to most other cities and counties in Florida.”
Weaknesses:
"Although it is the largest city in our state by size, when contrasted to and when competing with other regions of Florida, Jacksonville has a comparatively small population. As a result, it lacks some of the amenities and the quality of life image now being demanded by the creative class. In the years ahead, Jacksonville will have to learn how to better showcase its assets; not just to future residents now living in other parts of the United States, but to those citizens looking to relocate to the United States from other countries. This international competition for talent is going to be an especially difficult game for Jacksonville to win, unless it establishes new ways of recruiting highly skilled, highly educated, highly motivated workers, essential for the new economy.”
See: http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?page=1&aID=51436
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Growing numbers of creative workers will no longer tolerate time-wasting commutes. In a massive national survey of information technology workers by InformationWeek, commuting distance was ranked among the most important job attributes by about 20% of respondents -- outscoring items such as bonus opportunities and financial stability of the firm. Regions that find ways to cut their time overhead may well enjoy a competitive advantage in the future.
Because of the need for people to save time, rebuilding and improving public transit must be a priority...
Page 168, Cities and the Creative Class by Richard Florida
While some may view the bus shelter discussion as simply an aesthetic one, it's actually an issue that will determine the direction of our city's economic future. A look around the country reveals that quality mass transit is one of the top urban amenities that appeals to the creative class. It is a critical element in the recruiting of highly skilled and educated workers that are essential for the new economy. Locally, mass transit happens to be one of Jacksonville's major weaknesses.
In addition to the acceptance of rail-based transit over additional road expansion in Jacksonville, our community must also significantly improve the bus system. Having quality, well maintained shelters that protect riders from the Florida rain and sun is a must.
Shelters with Advertising in Peer Cities
They say there is nothing new under the sun, a phrase which rings especially true with advertising on bus shelters. Here are a few images of well designed, privately funded bus shelters in other cities. It is important to note that these privately funded shelters are all superior to what we currently have locally in Jacksonville. They also do not detract from the environment they are placed into and can be designed to further integrate into their immediate surroundings.
Baltimore
Baltimore's modern bus shelters are designed in a fashion that adds character to the sidewalks.
Chicago
Chicago's shelters incorporate an open and highly visible design.
Buffalo
The bus shelter bill is an excellent example of using private sector investment to enhance the quality of public mass transit. For those interested in fake trolleys and real rail systems, this type of program can also reduce the cost for them. Like bus users, faux trolley and rail riders also need protection from natural elements to enhance their usability.
New York City
Even in Manhattan, efficient bus transportation is important.
Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh's bus shelters feature a unique design that has advertisements placed parallel to vehicular traffic.
Toronto
Toronto's shelters allow transit riders to enter them from two directions. Benches are also designed to eliminate vagrants from using them for sleeping.
Charleston, SC
Although Charleston's shelters feature no advertising, they are a great example of a new design that fits architecturally into a national historic district.
If you are against bus shelter advertising
The lack of shelters in Jacksonville is a problem that our community must overcome if we want to compete in the new economy. For those not willing to support this universal public/private shelter program, work to offer a viable alternative solution with examples. Killing a viable affordable solution without an alternative on the table does the entire city a disservice.
What can you do to help enhance mass transit in Jacksonville?
While there are council members in support of the bus shelter bill, there are others who are on the fence or outright opposed. Regardless of whether you are for or against having 750 free maintained bus shelters installed on Jacksonville's streets, voice your opinion by attending the Planning Commission meeting on Thursday, August 13, 2009.
For those who can not attend, pick up the phone and give your council representative a call, or send the council an email at cityc@coj.net
Article by Ennis Davis
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copperfiend
August 12, 2009, 07:48:01 AMAs long as they are classy like the Hooters ads on the city buses, I am fine.
fsu813
August 12, 2009, 08:20:28 AMbig difference:
most of jax's bus stops aren't in large, urban areas like most of the one's shown in the pics. so they'll stand out much, much more.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 08:36:16 AMI disagree. These shelters are also located in areas of low density in and around these communities and they look fine and more attractive than anything we currently have here in town. On top of this, their transit users are also protected from the elements, which enhances their system's overall usability. I'll upload a few images later this afternoon of shelters in suburban areas.
stephendare
August 12, 2009, 08:40:11 AMOk. On this one, trust me. The city needs bus shelter far more than it needs some misplaced, grossly oversized devotion to the notion of "No Camel Noses Under the Tent.
A few restrictions by ordinance on the types of advertising and we should be good to go.
As for me, I really couldnt care less if Bus Shelters featured peg legged 90 year old naked grannies doing handstands with a 900 number right next to an Old Kentucky Tavern Ad. Seriously?
Making it possible to ride a bus to work without getting soaked, struck by lightning, beaten to death by hail, or dropping from sun stroke is a stone cold necessity.
This effete hand wringing over the potential aesthetics in the face of overwhelming evidence that it can be and normally is done tastefully is just inane.
Can't we find anything else more important to object to? Like old Prince lyrics or W.C. Fields scandalous position on drinking?
Deuce
August 12, 2009, 08:48:19 AMI would be curious to know who is actually against this plan. What their exact reasons are and what they propose as an alternative.
I agree with that 100%.
Overstreet
August 12, 2009, 08:49:04 AMI enjoyed the "Bebe" ads on the bus shelters in Atlanta. Don't know what it has to do with anything to buy, but they were interesting. The Bebe I know gets senior discounts.
Traveller
August 12, 2009, 08:59:30 AMFunny you mention this. On my way to work this morning, I saw a guy fast asleep in the bus shelter on Forsyth just east of Laura. He had his own pillow and blanket and looked quite comfortable.
JeffreyS
August 12, 2009, 09:02:59 AMThis seems like a home run. A little regulation on the advertisers and emulate some of the better designed shelters will be a nice upgrade to our transit system.
TPC
August 12, 2009, 09:18:05 AMI am biased because I work in advertising, but I am all for this. It is paid for by the private sector, provides shelter for the bus users, and provides local advertising agencies with more work. Win, win, win.
stephendare
August 12, 2009, 09:19:40 AMcline
August 12, 2009, 09:50:04 AMOn a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself. It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine". It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 10:14:57 AM^I agree 100%.
hightowerlover
August 12, 2009, 10:40:03 AMI think the biggest hurdle will be convincing jacksonville residents that the bus riding public is not second class citizens and they deserve a more attractive place to sit in 100 degree heat and be covered from the persistent rain showers. if we are ever to overcome the traffic issues this city will continue to face in the future, we have to make mass transit a priority and make it attractive for people who can afford to own an automobile but, choose not to.
cdb
August 12, 2009, 11:19:19 AMBorn and raised in Brooklyn, NY. I have spent much time sitting at a bus shelter waiting on the B16 or B41 to come by. In this heat and with this rain, bus shelters are a must. And selling that ad space shouldn't be too hard. The thing that I always think about is the lack of transfers. I would take the bus to work, but I would have to walk just too far to get to the initial bus stop. You can't only route buses on the major roads, they have to cut off for convenience for many people to want to use a bus system. And most areas in Jax don't have the typical square blocks which make bus routes much easier. I am all for it, but I don't ever see Jax having a major mass transit system that will work.
shanshan1218
August 12, 2009, 11:27:52 AMI say go for it! anything is better than the random scattered "benches" we have now. The ones along roosevelt are always in like a sand pit from what i see while driving.
Ocklawaha
August 12, 2009, 02:26:42 PMI like the flavor of bold art with transportation...Just another way to get some pretty fantastic shelters built. Use the Universities, the art departments and grants from the National Endowment For The Arts.
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
August 12, 2009, 03:18:38 PMGood grief, Ock! I'd be afraid to approach that thing up there! Rather than art, what our bus shelters need are solar powered fans in them. If they cut off the rain, then they cut off the breeze too.
Ocklawaha
August 12, 2009, 05:09:32 PMNew Design, Slovakia
New Rural Design, Northwest England
Yeah man! I know this one is radical to the max, it's just another way to get it funded...for free. Add other modern art, period art, deco era, Nouveau art etc... and we also get lots of attractions with the urban sculptures. Most international first tier cities are full of sidewalk art. We lag far behind and probably over 75% of our city doesn't even have sidewalks or streetlights. At least if the Martins ever attack us in the dead of night, we'll be ignored. I'm certain that flying they're saucer's down from Mars, they'll want to knock out only the larger appearing communities. You know, like Green Cove Springs, Lulu, Two Egg, etc.
BTW, I agree with the fan idea, I'm also in support of LIGHTER colors and a wall panel in front to keep people out of the pouring rain. Butterfly roofs rather then typical arched, flat, or other designer shapes. Bus pullout lanes, with handicap access to and from the shelter which will tie them to the nearest completed sidewalk or store entry's. So in the event that JTA sees this, here is a bus shelter needs assessment:
Asheville NC
Bus Pullout lanes
Pavement marking for bus stop
LED illuminated pavement reflectors, to warn other drivers of the bus movements and intentions.
Real time information scroll, limited to the larger and/or connection shelters. Another ad space. Countdown clock scroll.
Butterfly roof's whereever possible that could overhang above the bus.
Posted system map and route schedules.
Next Bus technology, just check your cell phone.
Solar power cells on the roof.
White or reflective light color on the roof.
Tinted glass or lexan panels
corner ventilation fans - Solar Powered
#311 bus/train/Skyway/streetcar/water taxi/Cab access
Single panel in front of shelter (entry on each side) to protect passengers from blowing rain
Paved pad that extends all the way to the street and connects with sidewalk or storefront
Attached matching trash receptacle.
Camera security tapes
Smile, your on Camera
Landshut, Germany
Anyone else? Jump on in!
OCK Purple? Mood lit bus shelters by Virgin America Airlines, San Francisco
OCKLAWAHA
TheProfessor
August 12, 2009, 05:44:28 PMI know Clay Yarborough is against sponsored bus shelters. I could not convince him otherwise. I am all for more creative bus shelters.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 08:18:24 PMDoes Clay have an alternative solution to fund mass transit improvements or does he just not care?
tufsu1
August 12, 2009, 09:20:25 PMCome on Lake...why should a good religious man care about those less fortunate :-)
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 10:14:27 PMHere are a few images of these bus shelters in the suburbs and parks. Also, I add one of an existing bus shelter in Jacksonville. Which one looks more appealing and maintained (Public or Private with ads)?
Back in Jacksonville
The shelters and benches shown in the top four images don't cost the taxpayer a thing. We have to pay for what's shown in the last image....and we can't afford them!
TheProfessor
August 12, 2009, 10:56:04 PMAll Clay Yarborough cares about is "protecting family values". He forgets that not everyone is married with children and that this status quo in his head is not the future.
Charles Hunter
August 12, 2009, 11:01:59 PMI don't remember if it's been said here, but I've heard that there won't be any advertising shelters in residential areas - just in commercial zones.
Bill Brinton and John Crescembeni are the leading opposition to ad shelters - they were behind the referendum that got the sign restrictions written into the Charter. They really do fear the "camels nose under the tent" (good phrase, stephen!). I would guess that, despite the ruling in California, one or more billboard companies here would file suit as soon as the first ad shelter went up. Legal fees - who pays?
I don't understand Clay's opposition, unless he's listening to Crescembini.
thelakelander
August 12, 2009, 11:06:24 PMIs there no other municipality in the United States with a similar sign restriction that has faced this situation?
I can understand the "camel's nose under the tent" issue, but I would at least like these guys to present a viable alternative solution along with their opposition. The status quo sucks and keeping it is a misjustice to the entire city and it's fiscal future.
zoo
August 13, 2009, 06:33:28 AMShelters, yes. Advertising, yes. COJ still hasn't figured out that if it wants public-private partnerships, the private part of it has to get something in return -- revenue or marketing value. The charity kick isn't reality.
Chuckled at the image of the shelter in Toronto with what looked like a Calvin Klein ad on it (dude bare but for underwear) -- I didn't see any of the pedestrian's around it going up in flames on their way to damnation for being exposed to it.
"On a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself. It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine". It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board."
This is also a great idea, and one that would work for Springfield's faux trolley line. Innovative thinking seems to have taken leave of Jax's govt and major corporations.
Deuce
August 13, 2009, 09:35:48 AMIf the only thing that a person can come up with for being against bus shelters is "protecting family values" then they don't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure JTA already has a policy that states what's allowed in advertising on their buses and I'm sure the same will apply to the shelters. I have been in a lot of major cities and I've never seen advertising in a public space that somehow violated family values. I've seen Hooters ads on buses here and I've not heard any complaints. With giant billboards for Dick's Wings and Insurrection around town, what do they think is going to be advertised on these shelters, Hustler magazine.
BridgeTroll
August 13, 2009, 09:40:54 AMhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel's_nose
5PointsGuy
August 16, 2009, 08:43:19 PMHow about we get some companies to sponsor these ... http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/san-fransiscos.php
San Francisco's solar powered bus stops spread Wi-Fi all over
tufsu1
August 16, 2009, 09:23:19 PMthat would be the problem 5PointsGuy...the City won't allow outdoor advertising...which takes away the incentive for a company to sponsor and/or install the shelters
Ocklawaha
August 16, 2009, 11:41:28 PMYeah, these dudes would DIE if they saw the transit ad's we took on in Colombia! Even one for PETA about those mean old Yankee's visiting bull fights! HA! HA!
OCKLAWAHA
PS: Jet Blue is running a special if you want to visit! hee hee!
Ocklawaha
August 18, 2009, 11:13:03 AMLet our friends at the City Council upgrade our lives with BUS SHELTERS. Check out what San Francisco has cooked up for their advertiser paid shelters:
Sometimes it's just better to try and compete with Middleburg, Yulee, Lulu and Two Egg... If we can't run with the big dogs, we should perhaps stay on the porch.
OCKLAWAHA
BridgeTroll
August 18, 2009, 12:25:50 PMIf solar power can power a bus stop in San Fran... I imagine they could power a whole city block in Jacksonville!
CS Foltz
August 23, 2009, 01:53:07 PMI would be much more happy with buss stops that do not impede traffic flow for cars! Most of the stops in my world have no pull off area for the passengers to enter or leave. To say this stops traffic flow is blunt and direct!The City could do much better. If they are planning to expand Bay Meadows, which they are at some point, I would bet money that has not been taken into consideration since the norm for the City appears to be a lack of vision....planning and economical use of our money!
Lunican
September 22, 2009, 03:06:43 PMCouncilman Michael Corrigan: “I do not support Councilmember Jones’s Bus Shelter Bill. I further commit to help my fellow Councilmembers understand the potential broad damage of allowing advertising on bus shelters.”
Councilman Bill Bishop: “Please be assured that I will vote “NO” on legislation that would allow advertising on bus shelters. Please also note that I am a co-sponsor of Council Member Criscimbeni’s bill to explicity state that advertising be prohibited from bus shelters.”
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=84
BridgeTroll
September 22, 2009, 03:14:46 PMUnreal... no explanation... just... NO!
stephendare
September 22, 2009, 03:28:16 PMthats the RAP newsletter. Jones has the votes. RAP is concerned about the tackiness factor, and that a provision would over ride their special overlay.
So in pursuit of that they want to defeat a bill that would primarily affect the rest of the city that doesnt have their zoning overlay in place.
This is silly and a little selfish.
I see nothing wrong with the points that they make. Visual obstruction et al, but that would also affect a hella lot of beautiful shrubbery and trees in that neighborhood as well.
Hopefully Jones keeps his majority.
Seems like their councilmen would be better served trying to figure out how to fit historic language into the bill.
JeffreyS
September 22, 2009, 03:32:01 PMHaving sign on locations the city deems appropriate with content they review and approve and zoning out many areas seems like an easy compromise.
stephendare
September 22, 2009, 03:36:50 PMAnd its not like advertising tater tots, halter tops and el camino's would be a sensible choice in avondale anyways.
Its more of a Humboldt fog and Claret market with the occasional go go boy thrown in for good measure.
Dog Walker
September 22, 2009, 03:40:43 PMNo, no! I want ads like the one's Ock posted above!
urbanlibertarian
September 22, 2009, 08:13:28 PMWhy not let each district council person decide what goes in their district? Why would constituents in the rest of the city care about bus stop shelters and advertising in the neighborhoods where people actually ride the bus?
thelakelander
September 22, 2009, 10:58:51 PMRiverside should just opt out of it. If they want bus shelters, they can raise the money for the structures in their district on their own. No need to penalize the whole community. As a matter of fact, maybe JTA should just not agree to put them in historic districts, thus eliminating Riverside/Avondale and Springfield from the discussion.
mtraininjax
September 23, 2009, 04:10:40 AMIn Riverside, I'd personally like to see scantily clad women advertising for the Gold Club, Wackos or any of the "classy" showbars in Jax. Half-neked babes in Riverside would be a plus for me!
CS Foltz
September 23, 2009, 07:08:11 AMBus Shelters could be designed to integrate within tasteful boundaries. JTA needs to think out of the box and then some.............I am more concerned with having bus's stop in the middle of the road to do their passenger thing and holding up traffic than I am with a covered stop for people waiting to ride the bus! That won't be corrected either! Are there more important things to concern ourselves with?
Dog Walker
September 23, 2009, 08:41:54 AMLet's see. You are in the middle of a commercial district. All around you are signs for the businesses and posters in their windows and on the light posts. You're going to worry about a couple of signs on a bus shelter? Givitabreak!
CS Foltz
September 24, 2009, 06:34:22 AMI just love it when some on the Council says "NO" and can not explain their position. I have not heard yet what Mr Meserve has to say about it...........looking forward to that I am!
JeffreyS
September 24, 2009, 07:38:27 AMIt is fear mongering politics. They know a reasonable strategy exists area exemption, local approval or zoning ect. To give a reasonable response gets their voters to say ok good job but not very impressed or memorable. However if said politician has saved their neighborhood from posters covering their area with a minority dressed as a stripper, smoking Newport's and drinking Courvoisier you just have to reelect that crusader.
CS Foltz
September 24, 2009, 08:21:05 PMI don't understand the problem............Design two models.....one for historic area, one for general public,use City Engineers to design,City workers to assemble and install..........end of problem! No advertising unless Districts give green light through voter referendum for their District! End of problem.......what is so flipping hard?
Steve
September 24, 2009, 09:54:36 PMIt's a little more complicated than that (isn't that always the case?). The shelters would be installed for free by a private company (someone like a JCDecaux, Clear Channel, or Lamar). They are the ones installing the shelters, not the city.
I get RAP's position. I don't want this killed for the community, but in talking to some folks earlier this week, ther were rumors that the Historic Districts would be able to opt out of it. If that is the case, then that's probably the best thing for RAP to do.
Remember, if they don't, and they put something non-historic looking in a street, it could cause a precedence issue (the bus shelters are there, so let's put ________ in on Post St.). As the legislation is written, it is not really written with historic districts in mind. My guess is that is a major reason why Corrigan is not for this.
CS Foltz
September 25, 2009, 06:30:05 AMSteve.....I understand, its always more complicated then it needs to be! Well uncomplicate it! Lets not only streamline the possible structures but simplefy the installing? I can see where advertising would give the COJ some return or JTA but we are talking about a simple shelter for protection from the elements. Johnny wants to spend 29 Million dollars on Metro Part for upgrades not needed so hold on that and use that money for shelters! Historical District should not have to opt out, they are part of the City also.......this reminds me of cell phone towers...........everyone wants service but don't want a tower in their back yard. Thats why they make fake tree's that are full service structures!
tufsu1
September 25, 2009, 08:38:43 AMthe shelters are JTA, not the City....and JTA doesn't have the money...so the only way they get done is to have a prvate company install them....and that company will want the ad revenue to offset the cost.
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 09:21:34 AMtusfs1, there was an article in the Folio that JTA is sitting on $72 million that is not earmarked for any use. I don't agree but if they exist, Bill Bishop wants these funds to be used for shelters instead of working with private companies to pay, install and maintain them. What's your take on this?
tufsu1
September 25, 2009, 09:39:26 AMI had not heard about the $72 million, but it seems to me this would be better ued to start/finish some major projects around town....my list would include:
1. Streetcar Implementation
2. Commuter Rail Environmental Studies
3. Enhanced Bus Service (better headways)
4. JTB/I-95 Interchange
Dog Walker
September 25, 2009, 10:14:36 AMBet you that OCK can come up with pictures of historic streetcar shelters that would fit right in to Riverside and Springfield with or without advertising. OCK, are you there?
On the other hand, maybe the streetcars ran so frequently that you never had more than a ten minute wait for one and shelters were unnecessary. When you have to wait thirty minutes or an hour, you need shelter and a place to sit.
fsujax
September 25, 2009, 10:19:48 AMI like the list tufsu1....Let's get started!!
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 10:30:27 AMHere's a link to another story about it: http://jaxpoliticsonline.com/2009/09/23/jta-the-mysterious-72-million-stash/
Ocklawaha
September 25, 2009, 10:45:47 AMHeadways downtown were every 5 minutes, after the city complained that the waits for 8 minute streetcars was too much to bear.
Here's your classic streetcar stop, sort of looks like old Ortega - Riverside, doesn't it?
OCKLAWAHA
Dog Walker
September 25, 2009, 11:14:10 AM5 Minutes!!!! Makes you want to weep with envy.
CS Foltz
September 25, 2009, 12:35:01 PMAdministration back when they did have street cars and the like at least made use of what they had! Current Administration is only good for spending my tax dollars without peer! No vision........no plans.......no sense!
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 05:47:46 PMfull article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529156
Ocklawaha
September 25, 2009, 07:29:32 PMFrankly a read of the newspapers pre-WWII is like reading the LA times or Chicago Tribune. One get the image of a polished booming city with industry to spare, and energy to become the next Sao Paolo. Sad that somewhere right after the war, this town had a major brain fart and ceased to be progressive. It was in the armpit of the Great Frog, in the 1960's when the school system lost all state accreditation, Consolidation was a hail Mary pass to try and save something from the ashes.
Very interesting Lakelander. So JTA CAN work with the City Council for approval to get bus shelters with advertising on them, but can't work with them to tap the mystery money so we could enjoy the 5 BILLION dollar boom Phoenix is having around it's light rail.
My fear is that if we wait too long, the novelty of LRT might wear down to a point where "everybody's doing it" and thus the economic boom would be lower.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
September 25, 2009, 08:27:23 PMJust about everybody is doing it. If we hop on board, we'll benefit also. My fear is that we'll miss the financing boat if we can't make a true commitment while Obama is still in office.
CS Foltz
September 26, 2009, 06:39:25 AMlake and Ock...........both of you hit the nail on the head! A day late and a dollar short is the direction we are going. If we can not convince someone in the inner circle rail, in any shape or form, is a plus for any City then we are wasting effort! I don't care who or what takes the lead but someone needs to step and get things going! We can discuss this till the cows come home but somewhere sometime someone needs to take charge and get it done! I hope it's soon!
blizz01
October 27, 2009, 06:56:20 PMDid anyone catch this in today's Daily Record? The signage looks great, however, it seems like they're getting ahead of themselves if the shelters are on the way too.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529423
CS Foltz
October 27, 2009, 08:02:19 PMEveryone seems to have forgotten about the $73 Million Dollars that JTA just happen to find in someones desk or unused bank account............my point is why are we waiting till we get an "Advertiser" to fund bus stop shelters? JTA has the money on hand and if they don't have shelters in stock stored somewhere, then someone is not doing their job! The advertising verbage pertains to commercial advertising in conjunction with more shelters...........I mean we can spend $600k+ on a new bus that will most always not be full to its 60 + person capacity and you mean to tell me that JTA has no prefabbed shelters available? How many new bus's were bought?......this is a case for prioritizing and JTA is not doing their job......one bus could have paid for several shelters....if they were on a average of $2200 per shelter and labor cost to assemble was $300.....that's more than one shelter for sure is it not?
stjr
October 27, 2009, 08:15:41 PMJTA didn't "work" with the City Council for approval of bus shelters, they out and out MISLED them with misinformation. Don't worry, give them some time, and they will have some cooked books out of the oven soon for the next item on their want list. We'll see how that "works" with the City Council.
CS Foltz
October 27, 2009, 08:25:35 PMstjr I agree! JTA has not been forthcoming with their numbers by any stretch of the imagination! I am looking forward to the first "Law Suit" so when it hits the fans.......I want to be standing behind a Council member for cover! The so-called Mayor has given this his stamp of approval which means .....won't be long before it hits the proverbial fan!
tufsu1
October 27, 2009, 08:49:01 PMone big problem...each shelter is more like $6,000 and often costs about the same to install (given that concrete pads have to be poured)...and remember, these are real basic shelters...;larger, nicer ones can cost $25,000 or more.
stjr
October 27, 2009, 09:34:06 PMTufsu, just checking. You aren't getting your numbers from JTA are you?
thelakelander
October 27, 2009, 10:03:11 PMAccording to Mike Miller, the Springfield shelters cost $40,000 a piece.
Imo, if JTA has $73 million in cash laying around, that money should go towards transit improvements that the private sector is not immediately willing to finance. In other words, I'd go with advertising on shelters and shift the entire $73 million to getting something like a streetcar system out of the ground.
You have a point. The signs are nice but this something that could be worked into the design of the new shelters and paid with by private money.
stjr
October 27, 2009, 10:55:12 PMIf that's true, I doubt even the advertising will pay for such a shelter. Expect to hear that any ad company will limit the value of a shelter they will pay for. It will be interesting to see what that number is and what type of shelter you can buy for it. Jax isn't exactly New York when it comes to bus shelter sign views
Another example of JTA incompetence. Yes, the signs look great but knowing the shelters are to be upgraded and expanded, you would think, after all these years, they could have waited just a little longer for the signs to be attached to all those new shelters. I bet these signs cost at least $1,000 to $2,000 each, installed. How about it Tufsu? I thought money was tight at JTA.
CS Foltz
October 28, 2009, 06:52:44 AM40K for a Historical District shelter seems abit much and 6K for a standardized shelter also seems a bit much, concrete not withstanding! I doubt if there is any heavy rebar in the slab and most of the structure should be aluminum which would mean self drilling,self tapping hardware. Some caulk to seal roof sections and poof! Shelter should not cost $6k per shelter even in todays materials cost market! Standardizing would lower cost even more, but that's just my take!
thelakelander
October 28, 2009, 07:08:56 AMThe easiest way to find out the cost of a shelter and maintainence is to call one of the companies in the business. Try contacting JCDecaux North America: http://www.jcdecauxna.com/pages/Default.aspx
tufsu1
October 28, 2009, 08:01:36 AMAnother few sites for research
http://www.sheltersdirect.com/transitShelters.php
http://www.handi-hut.com/?gclid=CKqNrvDY350CFQRM5QodPlGrPA
CS Foltz
October 28, 2009, 08:08:54 PMHay guys....thanks for the links.....gonna start cking now! Numbers just don't make sense to me based on what I've seen! Something on 4 posts with a roof, made of aluminum is about as cheap as you could do it! Wood might be cheaper but not sure......will look into it and go from there!
blizz01
October 29, 2009, 04:11:09 PMJTA says it will put the brakes on bus shelters with ads
http://jacksonville.com/news/2009-10-29/story/jta_says_it_will_put_the_brakes_on_bus_shelters_with_ads
thelakelander
October 29, 2009, 04:24:33 PMstjr
October 29, 2009, 06:41:14 PMDid I tell ya' so? I will give JTA kudo's for being big enough to back down and admit a problem. Best thing they have done in a while.
When you consider the opposition, the mistated bus shelter data, the advice of the real legal experts on billboards, the economic feasibility of ads funding what was promised and/or needed, etc., I think this is the only action JTA should take presently.
I will remind you that JTA may be able to fund the shelters in other ways, not the least of which is taking the funds used to operate the useless $ky-high-way and apply them toward assisting thousands more bus riders and maybe even adding a few with the added amenities. Now, that would be a major win-win for everyone!
Failing that, I have already pointed out ways other communities have found to fund shelters. Stimulus dollars, corporate underwriting, downtown development agencies, community groups, redirected funds from lesser priorities, etc. Being creative, I am sure we can do the same.
JeffreyS
October 29, 2009, 06:53:53 PMYou think any council members who put themselves out there for the JTA might now hesitate to do so again?
stjr
October 29, 2009, 07:04:42 PMMaybe. They need to be independent thinkers, not rubber stampers or special interest advocates. If this teaches them that lesson, we, as a community, will be better for it. Same with any other "errors in our ways" such as Jack Webb's missteps.
Part of atoning for mistakes is that we admit to them and learn to do better next time. That's why knowing our past is so critical to insuring our future!
Ocklawaha
October 29, 2009, 07:10:05 PMHells Bells Lake, these things come in more shapes and designs then a Disney Fantasy movie... From cool little mushrooms, to giant heated/AC size micro-stations. You simply choose the product that fits the market and location... Damn, this stuff isn't that hard people.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
October 29, 2009, 07:13:29 PMOnly in Jax, lol. I'll be looking forward to seeing what they come up with.
JeffreyS
October 30, 2009, 12:15:34 AMI wonder how much the study cost that determined the ads were the best way to go.
JeffreyS
October 30, 2009, 12:18:57 AMI feel like our fit about getting transit has totally had it's ass kicked by the people who do not want the shelters fit.
Ocklawaha
October 30, 2009, 12:44:58 AMTo HELL WITH STUDIES, have ideas and make executive decisions, that's what they pay me for in Colombia! You STUDY in school, in class, or on-the-job, in the field you follow CCTT's motto. (CCTT=Transport and Technology Corporation of Colombia)
"ACT, Inertia Doesn't Move/Change"
This stuff just ISN'T THAT HARD! Your right Lake, ONLY IN JACKSONVILLE! y Pasto!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
October 30, 2009, 06:11:51 AMGentlemen...........I concur! JTA is back pedaling big time and the bozo's did not even have a Plan B either! When in doubt have a study done seems to be the way most of the City's Agencies operate and I just can not understand it! No one has returned my E Mail request to the 3 Companies you guys provided the links for yet and when they do I will post that info. Somehow I think $12K per shelter is an inflated figure and I am trying to find out just where. One of the principals of manufacturing is standardization both in materials and design which allows a cost effective product to any customer and I am still scratching my head as to why a simple shelter would cost so much.................it doesn't make sense!
tufsu1
October 30, 2009, 08:00:08 AMI'm not sure they are getting off this idea yet...just taking a pause to let things cool down a bit....I still expect to see the board give JTA staff the go-ahead and this to be pursued sometime next year.
Either way, at least they now have the ability to do this at some point in the future if they so choose.
fsujax
October 30, 2009, 08:25:31 AMGod forbid we act like a big city and have advertisements on bus shelters. How frustrating!
CS Foltz
November 01, 2009, 10:52:40 AMGentlemen............I could care less about "Advertisements" that I would not read while traveling on the roads! I have yet to see anything that substantiates advertising on either bus's or shelters so any company that participates maybe expecting lots of traffic from advertising but I say - It ain't so Joe! Any so-called numbers can be juggled or presented in the best light strictly depending on how the question is asked! Some of us question any information presented by a poll or a survey and I understand why............because I do too!
Dog Walker
November 01, 2009, 12:01:27 PMBut JTA is always so precise and accurate in it's reported numbers and projections! (That's sarcasm, folks!)
JaxNole
November 01, 2009, 12:34:47 PMI disagree with RAP's stance against ad-supported bus shelters. As part of their objective to promote less dependence on automobiles, improved and upgraded bus shelters would support this goal.
The ads won't be flashing neon (Times Square) nor of soft porn. Advertising abounds in the historic district so why not jump on the opportunity to fund bus shelters since there are so many bus stops in the area?
thelakelander
November 10, 2009, 06:31:37 AMhttp://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/phil_fretz/2009-11-09/story/let%E2%80%99s_have_a_little_sympathy_for_those_who_ride_the_b
CS Foltz
November 10, 2009, 06:50:49 AMIt would seem to me that JTA has taken the easy way out...........no money equals no shelters! However we seem to find the money we need for new bus's! If one bus was delayed in procurement that would be $600k available for new shelters and maintenance, even though I have never seen a shelter being maintained or cleaned by anyone! This makes me believe that possibly that is just one more waste of our tax dollars given to someone somewhere for doing nothing! What is the criteria to get a shelter and who makes that decision based upon what information............does anyone know?
tufsu1
November 10, 2009, 10:01:42 AMMoney for new buses comes from capital outlays from FTA and FDOT....bus shelters can not be funded this way
tufsu1
November 10, 2009, 02:52:16 PMMaybe JTA should contract w/ this guy
http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/decomposed-school-buses-resurrected-for-bus-shelter/
JeffreyS
November 10, 2009, 02:55:14 PMI like it.
CS Foltz
November 10, 2009, 11:01:48 PMI don't believe that JTA has ever requested bids .......atleast not from an advertisement in the TU! Infact City Hall likes that tactic.....they don't use the TU all the time, they have a habit of using the Legal Gazette or whatever the hell the Lawyers Weekly is called!
Charles Hunter
November 10, 2009, 11:11:34 PMRequested bids for what? I would imagine the TU has a set ad rate, and if JTA wants to reach those readers, the get to pay the TU rate. I also imagine that if they (or any advertiser) buys a lot of space, they get a discount.
Oh, wait, are you saying JTA does not bid out the things they buy? I think, as a condition of the Federal funds they get, they have to bid. You are probably right, that most of the ads aren't in the TU - not a whole lot of bus builders who read the TU.
stjr
November 10, 2009, 11:46:14 PMWell, we can rehash this whole debate again or people can go back and read this and the other 2 or 3 threads already existing on this subject.
JTA has the money, they just chose to spend it otherwise. Look at their benefits/pensions of 50% of payroll and the subsidy of $20,000 per rider per year (total of about $14 million) they waste on the $ky-high-way. They manage to find all the money they need for these things without yelling and screaming.
And, if they can get Fed funds for buses and roads, they probably could scrounge some up for shelters. After all, that's part of running a viable bus system. I bet the Feds paid for the $ky-high-way stations, not just the track, because one is needed to support the other. Likewise, with shelters. But, you know, you don't get if you don't ask.
As to advertising dollars being predictable revenue streams, go ask newspapers, TV, radio, and sport promoters how reliable advertising dollars are today. Sorry, there are no guarantees in life.
By the way, I have yet to see an article quoting JTA about exactly what kind of revenue bus shelter ads will provide to accomplish their goals. It would appear it would take at least $150 to $200 or more dollars per MONTH per SHELTER to cover maintenance, depreciation, financing, and administration using $1,200 maintenance per year per shelter and $4,000+ per new shelter. And, that's an "el cheapo" shelter. (JTA has said better ones can cost north of $12,000. What are we looking for?). So, as an advertiser, are you willing to pay that rate or better for a shelter on the corner of Moncrief that mainly is seen by the same few dozen bus riders at a given stop all year long? Or, likely, even less riders at a stop on San Jose in Mandarin? What's the ad market like for that?
CS Foltz
November 11, 2009, 05:52:52 AMstjr you have stumbled on something that I have asked about several times! tufsu1 seems to have all of the answers but he has yet to come out with that one.......what I had asked was simple - How much revenue does the advertising generate from the bus emblazoned ads and the shelters? How much of the public responds to both advertising venues, I mean who has called on a business due to the add they saw on a bus? Somehow both ,from what I see, only generate income for the "Advertising Company" who charge more for the service than what that form of advertising brings in customerwise! The only person making out in that situation is Clear Channel or Lamar or whoever is in the Advertising game.......and it is just one more shell game for sure! JTA could and should come up with the money for more shelters, it should not be "Riders taking up a collection" in order to have some protection from the elements............no shelters equals no riders.....which is better?
tufsu1
November 11, 2009, 08:03:25 AMCS....ad companies don't charge JTA to put stuff on buses....they pay JTA...So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA
And this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.
stjr
November 11, 2009, 12:52:22 PMTufsu, you must not have run a business. Businesses want results for their money. They aren't going to buy these ads if they can spend the money elsewhere with far better results. You and JTA are not answering the questions asked. How does the revenue brought in from ads match up with the expenses of building and maintaining the shelters? For all we know, this could just be a JTA pipe dream. "Show us the money!"
If it was a perfect example of public/private, we wouldn't have the level of opposition we are seeing. It's only "perfect" in the minds of certain beholders such as yourself.
As to alternative funding, again you and others are dancing around the obvious sources I highlighted above.
Further, all the funding sources available for mass transit system should also cover bus shelters. Why? Because bus shelters should be viewed as an integral component of a bus transit system, just like railroad stations, terminals, the $ky-high-way stations, etc. It's just plain stupid, a red herring, and maybe discriminatory, that bus shelters are treated differently than other transit infrastructure.
JTA isn't shooting straight with us. Starting with the fallacious bus stop and maintenance numbers and relying on an attorney with a conflict of interest to disregard outside experts about billboard issues. And, continuing on with the above. The number of gullible and unquestioning public officials we have is why Jax can't ever dig out of some of these holes.
CS Foltz
November 11, 2009, 08:50:44 PMtufsu1 .....whether or not someone pays JTA to put their ad's on any bus is immaterial! Of course JTA will take their money ....it's free money for JTA!! Which does not answer my question of "How much money does JTA receive for letting anyone place an Ad for anything on a bus that we own?" Also like stjr has stated, bus shelters should be an integral part of a bus transportation system.........so why must that be an additional charge or separate funding? Now you want a revenue source to pay for shelters and the maintenance there off.........how about charging the riders double what they are charged now.....One dollar to ride and One dollar to pay for a bus stop? I mean there is no such thing as a free ride for anyone even though COJ does subsidize JTA right? I mean I seem to remember something about the Budget for JTA being passed without review or discussion and that was the operating budget that they asked for right? How come there was no money for shelters in the Budget? New bus's yeah.......new roads oh yeah but shelters..............these people are professionals huh? Makes me wonder just how many AIMO's are running that organization.
tufsu1
November 11, 2009, 09:48:19 PM1. JTA's budget does include money for shelters....but only enough for 10-20 per year
2. JTA, as currently constructed, primarily serves those people who have few other transprtation options...I'm thinking an increase to $2 per trip might put quite a burden for those on fixed incomes.
Maybe we should hire you to run JTA...it sounds like you'd be willing to do it for around $50,000....that would save some money for shelters.
urbanlibertarian
November 11, 2009, 10:01:48 PMBus shelters paid for by the advertising are a win-win-lose (win for bus riders, win for advertisers and lose for people offended by advertising). 2 outta 3 aint bad.
CS Foltz
November 12, 2009, 06:31:57 AMYou did ask for a revenue source right? Mayor Johnny has no qualm about "Feeing" the public in an effort to balance the books.............why did you not question that? To me there is no difference between the two situations........JTA's Budget was passed without comment or discussion..........if there are, as you say, 10 to 20 shelters per year then they have the money for that many.......which by the way I have to ask......where are those shelters being built? I have never seen any new ones going in any where and I used to travel quite abit all around town due to the work I did at that time. I was forcibly retired and would not consider running JTA since $50K a year is too much for an Agency which appears lost and has no plan. I mean bus's, with no shelters and having Ad's to pay for the shelters.......you still did not say anything about "How much money does the Advertising bring to JTA for free"? You sure your not a politician.....skirting around a direct question shows me you have talent.......planning on running for Mayor?
civil42806
November 12, 2009, 07:05:00 AM16 year old girls
fsu813
January 11, 2010, 07:09:39 AMPlan to build bus shelters with advertising in Jacksonville moves forward
Despite a previous pledge to consult with critics of their plan beforehand, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is getting ready to move forward on its own with a plan to build bus shelters with commercial advertisements.
In October, the City Council amended its sign law to allow JTA to build bus shelters with advertisements. Several vocal opponents objected, worried that the legislation would allow sign companies to challenge the validity of the entire city sign law.
JTA and the city's general counsel's office said that wouldn't happen, and JTA agreed to meet with critics and hold off on hiring a sign company that would build and maintain shelters.
Now JTA's critics say it hasn't really engaged them and question how sincere it is about finding common ground.
City Councilman John Crescimbeni, who opposed amending the sign law, said he has not heard from JTA for months, even though he has tried to schedule meetings.
"I should have realized when JTA said they'd talk to us it was all just lip service," he said.
JTA says the discussion on advertising can continue but it must move forward.
"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."
Blaylock said JTA's board will be asked to approve a request for proposal at its Jan. 28 meeting that will ask sign companies to submit bids to build and maintain the shelters. The first ones could be built by summer.
The only way he'll delay is if there's a definitive plan in place this month for how shelters will be built and maintained without ads, Blaylock said.
There are now shelters at about 350 of the 3,300 bus stops in Jacksonville. JTA builds about 20 a year but doesn't have the money to build and maintain more. With advertising, JTA says it could build about 80 a year.
JTA board member Cleve Warren, the point person on this issue, said he's been getting information from JTA staff before meeting with critics. He didn't view Jan. 28 as an end-of-discussion day.
"All we're doing on that day is approving a request for proposal," he said. "We can cancel it later."
Attorney William Brinton, who has advocated for the removal of billboards in Jacksonville for 20 years, expressed frustration at the pace of discussions. He met with JTA in November but has been waiting for it to provide information on the cost of maintaining shelters, and it hasn't come yet.
"I was expecting to be much further along in these discussions by now," Brinton said.
Warren believes JTA can build bus shelters on its own on major roadways like Beach, Atlantic and Normandy boulevards by getting grants and using JTA money. The cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.
The challenge is finding a way to maintain shelters after they're built. Warren estimates it will cost about $800 a year to maintain each shelter, including trash pickup, repairs to the structure, landscaping and repairs after vandalism occurs.
That means JTA pays about $280,000 now to maintain its existing shelters. Adding 80 new shelters per year would increase that cost by $64,000.
"One of the reasons hiring a sign company is attractive is that they would be committing to pay for the maintenance," Warren said. "The other side needs to come up with a way to do that if we're not going to have signs."
Tracey Arpen, a former city attorney who defended the sign law in court, said it's possible to designate some of the money collected from code enforcement violations like littering and illegal signs in the right-of-way to go toward shelter maintenance since those violations would impact the bus shelters.
But it's hard to make a specific proposal, Arpen said, until JTA shares the data on what the maintenance money is needed for maintaining the shelters.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-11/story/plan_to_build_bus_shelters_with_advertising_in_jacksonville_moves_forwar
fsu813
January 11, 2010, 07:10:35 AM"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."
- i'm sure he's bombarded with questions from the bus riding public at every meeting he attends.
CS Foltz
January 11, 2010, 07:21:35 AMI find it interesting that JTA can have acess to $60 Million Dollars to build a new "Transportation Center" but can not build some lousy bus shelters! With the delay in producing numbers that show difinitively just what dollars it takes to maintain shelters, I get the impression that JTA is cooking the numbers! If JTA does not know by now, how long have they been operating, when will they know? This is an Agency that has gaps in their information base and to me, shows how inept they really are........BRT huh?
tufsu1
January 11, 2010, 08:11:09 AMCS....JTA does not have access to $60 million for the Transportation Center!
For the last (hopefully) time, JTA made a joint request (along with FDOT) for a Federal stimulus TIGER grant....if that doesn't come through, its back to the drawing board.
Prior to the stimulus, the plan has always been to use FDOT funds to build the Transportation Center.
thelakelander
January 11, 2010, 12:31:09 PMFor those who don't like this plan, you better get to work. You have 20 days.
stjr
January 11, 2010, 12:57:46 PMLake, how does one come up with a better plan when JTA won't provide basic info or even has a conversation about the subject, with a City Council rep no less.
JTA is being a bully about this and, regardless of your position, you should be concerned as community funds and issues are at stake. If they play this way this time, next time it could be something you care about that gets steamrolled by their bureaucracy.
Funny, JTA can get creative finding grants for a new HQ's for its execs to the tune of $60 million, but it can't apply or locate similar grants for a fraction of that amount for bus shelters? Right.
Also, once JTA builds their gold-plated monument to themselves, how much per year to you think it will cost to operate and maintain it versus their current digs? That will come out of JTA operating revenues, you think? And, I bet it will be several times the costs of maintaining all those bus shelters.
The fact is, JTA is playing all kinds of games and lacks adequate scrutiny by outsiders. BRT, Transportation Center, $ky-high-way, Bus Shelter Ads, Outer Beltway, 9B, lousy bus routes and headways, NO street cars or commuter rail, Dames Point Bridge port limiter due to height and pier placement, etc. How many boneheaded bad decisions does JTA make or participate in before we say enough is enough. In fact, I am hard pressed to think of one world class facet of JTA other than their self promotion. Did I miss anything?
cline
January 11, 2010, 01:13:24 PMJTA is not involved in the outer beltway or the 9B project- those are FDOT projects. In the case of the beltway, it would be an FDOT/PPP.
fsujax
January 11, 2010, 02:33:33 PMI didn't realize JTA was building a gold plated monument to themselves. I think the design actually looks pretty crummy and should be redesigned.
CS Foltz
January 11, 2010, 03:25:04 PMtufsu1
January 11, 2010, 03:43:43 PMyou're at it again CS....what proof do you have that buying and renovating the old JEA HQ could be done for less than $60 million?
and, btw, the $60 million does include re-building portions of the skyway station, adding ground floor retail, and providing some BRT shelters....so, add that into your JEA building estimate for good measure!
stephendare
January 11, 2010, 04:36:47 PMI think, if you recall to the prior conversation, this is exactly what we reported was happening at the time.
Of course this didnt keep a couple of posters from claiming that we were simply making up the conversation, but this is exactly what the JTA was telling us would be the outcome.
CS Foltz
January 11, 2010, 05:40:38 PMtufsu..........your the one that posted the new "Transportation Center" was going to cost us taxpayers $60 Million Dollars for phase one! I know that the old JEA Bldg, downtown by the courthouse, is currently on the market for $11 Million Dollars........so to me quite simple! Bldg renovation would not cost $49 Million Dollars worst case scenario! That is a relatively new Bldg and not old enough to asbestos problems and the like unless the Building Inspectors/Architect were not doing something up to code! Any so-called new Transportation Center does not need to be built from scratch, does not need to eat up valuable downtown realestate or contribute to urban sprawl. Why not use something that is allready built, established footprint, accessible to all? Skyway station does not need to be enhanced, looking at ridership,add ground floor retail at new location and if JTA has access to $60 Million Dollar line of credit, why ain't they building shelters now? JTA still has not produced shelter maintenance numbers as of this morning and I don't think they know what those figures are! So the only thing that will happen at the proposed location is new.............other than that JTA has not meet any management criteria of doing the job correctly, cost effective and they don't deserve new just for the sake of new!
stjr
January 11, 2010, 06:14:23 PMJTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A. JTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio. Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County. After all, that is their mission, is it not?
stjr
January 11, 2010, 06:16:30 PMFSU, you are correct. The design is "crummy". But, the price is "gold plated". Just another bad deal for the taxpayers.
TheProfessor
January 11, 2010, 06:16:38 PMI am glad to see JTA is moving forward with this. They could talk forever with the people against bus shelters and not get anywhere. Advertising is the way to go, a reliable, sustainable source of funding. It's a no brainer.
stjr
January 11, 2010, 06:26:03 PMLest there be any doubt, 9B is even listed on JTA's current project list on their web site:
http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Projects/showPage.aspx?Sel=24
I also note that at least 5 JTA people were at the March 28, 2007, First Coast Outer Beltway Industry Forum including its CEO, Mr. Blaylock, and Cleve Warren, Board Chair. That's pretty heavy duty interest for a "non-JTA" project.
http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Industry%20Forum%20Attendees%203-28-2007.pdf
stjr
January 11, 2010, 06:32:16 PMProfessor, stop spinning this. No one I know of is against bus shelters. You are trying to demonize those opposed to the advertising model. That's what's wrong with debating issues in public nowadays. People don't debate the issues, they personally attack those who differ. That is hardly a constructive way to engage in meaningful discourse. Let's try raising the bar here.
CS Foltz
January 11, 2010, 06:38:35 PMI have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!
stjr
January 11, 2010, 06:52:28 PMStephen, you were right. JTA talked with fork tongue, out both sides of the mouth, or whatever. Message is be careful communicating with JTA because they will shift the ground under your feet at will.
You had multiple people including a City Council rep and a well respected attorney walk away from JTA meetings with one understanding (and even the newspaper). You had JTA talk differently in other circles. You did a good job of reading the tea leaves. Shame on others for believing JTA would deal with them in good faith.
TheProfessor
January 11, 2010, 06:54:22 PMI think if Cobb County Transportation can handle it in Marietta, Georgia. JTA can figure it out.
TheProfessor
January 11, 2010, 06:58:18 PMAdvertising is how other cities fund these projects. It is a source of revenue. Look at other cities.
TheProfessor
January 11, 2010, 06:59:33 PMcline
January 11, 2010, 08:57:45 PMThe fact is FDOT is the only one that has any money. No one has money for the outer beltway, that's why it would be a PPP with FDOT.
So because JTA has ONE vote on a committee that means they have "huge influence" and "unofficial veto power" over decisions made by the TPO board?
Also, you refer to "transit projects", the projects I am referring to (outer beltway and 9B) are not transit projects.
tufsu1
January 11, 2010, 09:59:55 PMgood point cline...just about every transportation group in the region has supported 9B and the Outer Beltway in one way or another. (this is regionalism whether we like it or not)...that doesn't mean they are funding/constructing either road!
Charles Hunter
January 11, 2010, 10:29:35 PMcs - I think the old JEA, which was the original home of the Independent Life Insurance Building (before Independent build what is now the Modis Building) was built in the 1950s - I would bet dollars to donuts the building is chock full of asbestos.
stjr
January 11, 2010, 11:29:15 PMCline, you aren't going to convince me that JTA doesn't have the ability to veto nearly every major road project in Duval County regardless of who pays for it, builds it, or approves it otherwise. JTA is supposed to be our master transportation planner and the only way they can be effective is if they have some strong degree of control over all transit projects in Duval County. I would be willing to wager that, at a minimum, every major road project in Jax, before going forward, gets the approval of both JTA and FDOT and the only real difference in them is who pays for what and where that money comes from. I think to believe otherwise is to be naive regardless of any public pronouncements.
By the way, how about this little tidbit from Page 21 of JTA's 2008 annual report:
As to the TPO, I often wonder if it isn't just a flunky for JTA and FDOT designed to create the illusion that there is broad based support for projects. Can anyone tells us of a major JTA approved road request that the TPO didn't endorse? At a minimum, there is so much political and agency incest, its really hard to tell the players apart. That's likely on purpose so that public officials and bureaucrats can disguise their hand in the process and avoid true accountability.
As to "transit", in my mind, that applies to a system covering any mode of transportation including automobiles. So yes, I include roads such as the Beltways and 9B. I would say the dictionary agrees with one of the definitions of "Transit" as: "transportation system: a facility consisting of the means and equipment necessary for the movement of passengers or goods"
stjr
January 11, 2010, 11:34:22 PMCS, I agree with your comment and the Professor again just dances around the question with nonsense. I asked this same question earlier in this thread and not one advertising proponent has answered it. How much do shelters and their maintenance costs verus how much revenue do ads on them bring in? Where is the plan? JTA hasn't publicized a budget to date.
stjr
January 11, 2010, 11:37:59 PMstjr
January 12, 2010, 01:06:03 AMSo, JTA had about $85 million in cash (non-depreciation, for Tufsu) operating expenditures ($68.5 million for buses) and another $174 million in governmental fund expenditures in 2007/08. And, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service? That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone. Really, now, less than 1%. How hard could that be?
tufsu1
January 12, 2010, 08:21:52 AMWhy are you all complaining about the bus shelter advertising....this is a way for private companies to help with public infrastructure....for all of the capitalist free-market folks and the low tax people, this should be a good thing!
cline
January 12, 2010, 08:25:29 AMSo, in your mind JTA weilds more power than FDOT and can override their decisions on projects whenever they want?
But why should they? If they can get the private sector to pay for it why should they spend other monies?
stjr
January 12, 2010, 10:28:36 AMCline and Tufsu, this is NOT a decision only about money. If it was, everyone would support it. But, if you took the time to hear why people where opposed, you would realize there is a serious concern raised by expert attorneys that bus shelter advertising could open the door for the return of billboards in Jax. You may not care, but many of us who do, remember how ugly the city became, overrun by these and other signs.
The problem with this discussion is the lack of understanding and/or appreciation for the sign issue and that it's about the tail wagging the dog. It's not worth opening up billboards and flashing signs over a few hundred thousand dollars for JTA who, wasting millions on the $ky-high-way alone, can't solve this issue in a more creative fashion that avoids risking the visual environment for all of us.
It's JTA's mission to control transportation in Jax/Duval County and that says it all. I am not comparing their "power". There may be projects JTA can't or won't due without FDOT but the reverse is true as well. As I already noted, JTA and FDOT are so incestuous with respect to road building, to outsiders, it's often hard to tell them apart, other than with regards to funding mechanisms. I doubt even JTA would disagree with me on this one.
CS Foltz
January 12, 2010, 10:36:13 AMOne more log on the fire stjr...............JTA has yet to announce any numbers at all regarding the Maintenance issue.........no matter who puts them up, according to JTA they spend money on maintaining them! It sure would be nice if JTA could and would provide actual dollars as to the cost............I guess they are still discussing just what that figure should be since I don't remember seeing anyone working on any shelter anywhere! Does anyone know anything about this?
cline
January 12, 2010, 10:42:52 AMSo what about other cities that have bus shelters with advertising on them? Are they overrun with billboards as well?
That's a big "other".
tufsu1
January 12, 2010, 10:58:39 AMthe short answer...NO!
I grew up in the Baltimore-Washington area....plenty of bus shelter ads, very few billboards.
As for the CS question regarding maintenance, JTA has provided the #...they say it costs around $850 per year to maintain each shelter (and those are ones without power/heat)....in the future, the shelters would be maintained by the ad company (the deal is for installation and maintenance).
stjr
January 12, 2010, 11:21:14 AMCline, my understanding is that Jax is a national leader in controlling billboards and other communities have looked to us for an example. Billboards in Jax are BANNED with the exception of those grandfathered in. As they disappear, they cannot be replaced, so, one day, we could be completely free of billboards.
The concerns about billboards are being raised by attorneys considered national experts in this area of law. JTA's attorneys have no such expertise but claim to know what they are talking about anyway.
"Overrun" is a relative and subjective term. If the billboard was looking down on your house, it may be the only billboard, but I bet you would have reached your "limit".
cline
January 12, 2010, 11:25:58 AMI'd like to hear the names of these communities.
In theory this is how it supposed to be, in practice it is not always the case. A few months ago Folio talked about this and discovered the some of the Billboard companies (I believe the example was Clear Channel) actually stealthily go out and repair billboards that are damaged or falling down- even though this is against the law. There is not always strict enforcement.
CS Foltz
January 12, 2010, 01:54:49 PMtufsu...thanks for the information! $850 per shelter seems high to me, just off the top of my head! Is this a figure they will stay with or just a responce to all of the inquiry"s? Is this a yearly figure,quarterly or monthly?
stjr
January 12, 2010, 02:07:25 PMFYI, here is a recent LA Times article showing that billboard ads versus other exceptions such as bus shelters is currently at a split decision pending appeals in the Federal Courts. Until appeals play out at the Supreme Court level, this is the legal hazard, as I understand it, that concerns those attorneys, etc. opposing JTA's plans.
Also, found this AP article summarizing Jax's fight to ban billboards in 1987:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1347&dat=19870604&id=LskSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k_sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6826,1252867
tufsu1
January 12, 2010, 02:25:26 PMthe figure comes from the article on Page 8 of the thread....says JTA pays $280,000 annually for the 350 existing shelters....so, oops, that's $800 per year for each shelter....still doesn't seem high to me....remember there's trash collection, lawn maintenance, inspections, etc.
CS Foltz
January 12, 2010, 02:59:27 PMSo there is 350 shelters taken care of at an annual cost of $279,500 (I cheated broke out a calculator.....toes are too cold to use)...........I assume this is a JTA maintenance crew doing this work or is this sub'd out?
stjr
January 12, 2010, 05:21:10 PMAll of this could be done by the regular clean up crews that do road maintenance. No need for a separate crew. Marginal costs: Near zero.
The only legit costs would be to repair or paint metal and I doubt that would be needed very often if this is commercial grade outdoor equipment. Marginal costs: Again, not much.
Add that JTA doesn't effectively maintain the $ky-high-way stations per MJ posts, I doubt that the shelters, even when they need attention, will get any. Marginal costs: Again, not much.
So what's the big deal?
urbanlibertarian
January 12, 2010, 05:59:00 PMI
mtraininjax
January 13, 2010, 12:37:09 AMIf JTA can find a new source of revenue, I am all for bringing Gold Club ads to my backyard!
CS Foltz
January 13, 2010, 07:10:02 AMI think we need to make sure that JTA manages what they now efficiently before we consider giving them anything more!
Solaron
January 15, 2010, 02:35:25 PMEasy ways to pay for bus shelters:
The shelters could be purchased on credit and paid off over a period of years from advertising income.
JTA can buy the shelters and use them to advertise their own services especially the bus service. They could display maps and schedules. They could show pictures of glamourous people riding the buses or local politicians happily waiting for the bus on their way to work. This will convince people to stop driving and ride the bus.
JTA can rent or sell the the shelters to advertisers who will be responsible for maintainance.
The shelters can be placed near Churches where they are needed anyway. The church can advertise their services and schedule and events and spread the Good Word with inspirational messages. This will also prevent underwear ads in front of Jacksonville churches.
Fraternal organizations like Kawanis Rotary, Elks, Masons, Knights of Columbus, non-profit organizations like United Way or Red Cross can have income from selling advertising space.
Movie theaters, factories, large companies, malls and shopping centers all have something to communicate to everyone in their vicinity. Most of all, making travel to their location comfortable convenenient and economical is a benefit worth any price.
It is the business of advertising agencies to own shelters and sell advertizing. You can ask advertising companies to install whatever kind of shelter you want.
Here are Bus Stop Shelters that pay for themselves. http://www.sundialenergy.com/se_css_pages/product_bus_shelt.htm
They have a solar powered lighting system that comes on after dark and illuminated billboards for advertising revenue. The billboards are visible every day to all passing traffic in both directions and the waiting passengers read the message over and over conciously and unconciously.
After the income from advertising pays for the shelter, every bus stop becomes a steady source of revenue.
The passengers, especially women will be more secure after sunset waiting for the bus in a well lighted place. These shelters are essential for rural bus stops or anywhere there is no convenient power source.
If passengers can travel in comfort and luxury, they will prefer not to drive. So don't leave the passengers in the dark, or the hot sun, or out in the rain.
CS Foltz
January 15, 2010, 02:59:35 PMSolaron.....I agree! There are alot of things that JTA could do but in their infinite wisdom will not! They are more concerned about "Gold Plated" Transportation Center and concrete than they are about fullfilling their mandate! What you have outlined is some of the things that have been discussed here but one more voice is more than welcomed!
JeffreyS
January 15, 2010, 03:47:15 PMLooking at the ads I see on busses the JTA seems to keep the ads tasteful. I do think they may have had some hooters ads once.
CS Foltz
January 15, 2010, 04:17:45 PMJeffreyS.........therein lies one potential problem...........what Church group is going to green light a bus slathered in "Hooters" adds? I don't care one way or the other...............but someone will take offense and thats when we start having the "ADD" Police or someone somewhere dictating which adds are acceptable or not!
Ocklawaha
January 15, 2010, 08:09:08 PMFreebies for JTA, ugly ads, ad police, lights or no lights, sign rules, deceit, back room deals, good ol' boy's, etc...
IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT! It is about that student nurse, standing in a pouring rain at Emerson and Philips Highway at 8:00 pm in a pair of ruined shoes, water pouring off of her notebook. It's about 3 elderly couples who have to stand in the blazing sun at Atlantic and Monument, in order to get out towards San Pablo, the Publix and CVS. It's about the Sailor on a port visit from Argentina that wants to see the city but doesn't speak a word of English, though he has a pocket full of money, the bus stop offers no clue on when to expect a ride, what ride to catch, or a place to sit down. The business man in Orange Park has sampled and enjoys the morning and evening express buses, until that windy day when it was 18 degrees outside.
It's about SERVICE, every customer, everywhere, every time, if a deal can be made for bus shelters with or without perks, I say let's get after it!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
January 15, 2010, 10:21:17 PMOck...........as you say "It is about Service"! JTA has access to a $60 Million Dollars line of credit to build a Transportation Center for what? Boils down to gold plated new offices and I say if they can do that.............we should not have put adds on bus shelters in order to build them! To me that is just as plain as "JTA loves concrete" and JTA needs to come off of their stash of money and build some! Y'all seem to have forgotten about the unused money that was found in an unused account, JTA has not mentioned anything further about it, what happened to those dollars?
Ocklawaha
January 15, 2010, 10:41:50 PMMy only thoughts are:
1. Why punish the passenger because we want JTA to fund this out of their pocket.
2. There have to be at least 1,000 other needs that the JTA "jackpot" can be spent on, especially if the shelters can be made to pay for themselves.
In the old NATTU, NARTTU and MAINSIDE Navy schools here in Jacksonville, the lounges, libraries (3 of them), barber shops and beauty shops all had generous magazine racks from which to choose reading material while you waited. Everyone wanted the Navy to pay for all of the materials, but the budget for such "pretty's" was laughable. The Exchange Officer, came up with a stroke of genius, all of the magazines went into their very own hard plastic "magazine covers," each cover had a hidden slip pocket, where 8.5 x 11 size paper stock could be inserted. These covers were very substantial and in some circles they have survived to this day... BUT, What made them so special is they all carried local advertising within those nice plastic covers. So many ad's were sold, that the selection was expanded again and again, and the USN never spent a nickle more on magazines.
Get some commercial business to pay for our shelters and let's use the money in the JTA accounts for meaningful improvements such as "Google Bus", "Next Bus," "News Ticker", "Real Time Arrivals-Departures Information Boards..." etc.
PS: Mike Blaylock is a man after my own heart, he doesn't like the "Bus Wrap" ad's and has opened discussion on banning them. I think transit vehicles of a uniform general appearance draw more passengers then rolling bill boards.
OCKLAWAHA
stjr
January 15, 2010, 11:12:41 PMOck, again, the total costs of bus shelters by any measure is peanuts to JTA. Why is it that this is the issue JTA suddenly becomes so "cost conscious" over? Check out their executive compensation, employee pension and other benefits, wasted $$ on the $ky-high-way, or other inefficiencies that you would be certain to find in a governmental bureaucracy such as JTA. Or, let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc.
There is a pattern of un-imaginative thinking among our engineering friends at JTA and FDOT. We see it here, in their road and bridge structures, the proposed transportation center, transit solutions, etc. Other people need to get involved in these projects who bring different thinking, approaches, and creativity. How about some marketing types who work from what the customer NEEDS and WANTS, not what the engineers think is the answer for them? Maybe, then, we would get transit models that people actually use in numbers because they are truly satisfied with the service being offered.
CS Foltz
January 16, 2010, 12:09:49 PMstjr.......I agree! In the overall context, shelter cost and the so-called maintenance, is peanuts compared to their overall Budget! There is no reason to not build them other than get more bus's that have a dozen riders on them......plus their new! Executive Compensation, employee benefits, $kyway costs and awhole host of inefficiences add up to Bull Excrement! If they wanted to, they could! Advertising revenue only accounts for 3% of the income and until they get their house in order, they don't deserve more!
tufsu1
January 16, 2010, 03:06:44 PMNO THEY DON'T!
CS Foltz
January 16, 2010, 05:15:38 PMtufsu..........then you mean that they will be using "Taxpayer" monies? If that is so, then they had better get some taxpayer input, because I for one am against the where and the proposal in general. There are other Bldg's that could be renovated for what is proposed at a far less cost to whomever is paying for it. The Federal Bldg comes to mind as to a Bldg and its location.
Ocklawaha
January 16, 2010, 09:18:37 PMHonestly? In ANY public transportation agency, nothing that represents a capital cost is "peanuts." While it's true some agency MIGHT get $60 Million to do this or that, the amount of documentation, needs assessment's, environmental and engineering is never so flipant as to be peanuts. The matching funds in almost any improvement project involve a great deal of human mental capital as well. These grants are often a one shot in a lifetime (for a engineer - executive - planner) to plan, buy, install and use the new XXX.
Cost Conscious is good, it's what we have wanted them to be for a long time. Cutting costs and improving services is a candle burning at two ends, Amtrak was assigned a similar order in 1971, which set the company in a 35 year rut. Compensation and benefits are not "all that" at JTA either, if you want excellent transit, just follow the money. Jacksonville Transportation Authority uses passenger miles as a performance measure for its transit system and the ratio of passenger miles to seat miles available as a productivity measure for individual routes. This system is superior to that used by the majority of Transit Systems operating in the western hemisphere, in short, JTA is a leader. * (See Note: One)
Yet in pay and benefits, from the bottom to the top, JTA is just another typical "East Mobile" industry, and falls far short of national system models. I haven't shared this publicly, but this is a good time to do so, Mr. Blaylock and I talked job and money while driving around reviewing my streetcar and commuter rail plans. When he asked what I was making in Colombia, I thought my poor friend was going to choke to death! "It was obvious Toto, we ARE back in Kansas again!" Although a dog of a system in Kansas probably pays better. Before I get shot full of holes for being a snob, let's just say I decided to perform these tasks pro bono, and if I ever get into a REAL project, I'll bid in as an independent planner paid by the job.
Man shine the light on JTA, that is exactly what they have done with the bus shelters and it's reaping a whirlwind.
While I'm the first to agree that the Jacksonville Terminal plans SUCK, and the buildings all look like a hokey movie set that could be labeled "Baby Milk Factory." The question is, why should the passengers have to suffer because they build ugly buildings? Bridges too low for ships or trains? or any other reason?
Both JTA and TPO have made some serious attempts at getting the public to join in, or speak up, even to offering free fried chicken dinners. Sadly most of the chicken went uneaten, and most of the seats remained empty in these community meetings. We even posted several of these meetings on MJ and JTA announced them on TV and the TU, yet attendance still remained low. I suspect that will continue until JTA really becomes, "Part of your day. Part of your community. Part of your life."
* (Note: One) First, data on passenger miles can better reflect transit usage. As a real example, transit boardings in St Louis increased by 15.0 percent from 1990 to 1995 during which the light rail system started operation, while passenger miles increased by only 3.4 percent during the same period. As a hypothetical example, consider the relative values of passenger miles per vehicle mile versus boarding per vehicle mile under two scenarios: 1) 20 persons rode a bus for 10 miles; and 2) 20 persons rode the bus for only a block. The usage by these 20 persons is reflected as 20 passenger miles per vehicle mile under scenario 1 and about 0.5 under scenario 2. In contrast, their usage is reflected as 2 boardings per vehicle mile under both scenarios. Second, passenger miles data may be used to measure transit vehicle occupancy or load factor.
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
January 16, 2010, 11:37:49 PMWether it is "Passanger Mile" or "Transit Mile" either way, JTA is probably no where near capacity and judging by what I have seen.........probably in the low single didgets? In fact,come to think of it, I have never seen anything from JTA that says just what their load is! Got some figures to think about Ock? I mean if the maintenance figures are at $850 yearly per shelter, JTA is only at .5 per passenger mile, those numbers just are pitifull and should be grounds to change management over!
tufsu1
January 17, 2010, 12:08:13 AMThere have been public meetings on the center in the past and there will continue to be...as a taxpayer, you get to vote on these things when you vote in local, state, and Federal elections...its called representative democracy (or a Democratic Repuiblic).
btw, why is it that you change your argument every time someone dispels your previous one?
CS Foltz
January 17, 2010, 08:13:34 AMtufsu I have done no such thing! I am still not comfortable with spending $60 Million Dollars of my hard earned tax money and don't care for the proposed location and if that Bldg design is the best we can do, we need to give someone some new crayons! There are other options to pursue and I don't see that happening! JTA appears to have the Court House mentality...........gotta have new! Bull Excrement! More Urban Sprawl, New Ediface and what comes out of it...........a new Bldg for JTA? Lots of parking there, yup.....ideal location, just like the Prime is ideally situated for a CONVENTION CENTER......right? Ohhhhhhh but the $kyway will get a new concourse..........whopee! $7 Million Dollars a year to run that silly thing and no matter how you account for riders..........whether its "Passanger Mile or Transit Mile" there ain't enough riders to substanciate keeping it alive! Wheeeeee..........COJ has a monorail (kinda) are we not progressive! Yeah...........rail system to nowhere and it won't be extended............poop on Corriene, pull its plug!If we can give Vescor $34.3 Million Dollars for nothing............we can take up a collection and kill the $kyway!
tufsu1
January 17, 2010, 09:22:40 AMMight as well kill downtown while you're at it then!
CS Foltz
January 17, 2010, 09:35:26 AMtufsu............Prime needs to go back to being "Transportation" oriented............new Convention Center needs to be built at the Ship Yards, Federal Bldg needs to become the new "Transportation Center"......that makes perfect sense to me and alot cheaper than what is planned! Gotta better idea then lemme hear it! I can not see adding to the urban sprawl and I am a believer in recycling bldgs which are cheaper than building from scratch! Besides with BRT working Skyway won't be needed right? I mean JTA has touted BRT as the panacea to cure all of the downtown ills did they not?
tufsu1
January 17, 2010, 10:42:45 AMWhil the general concept is good, recycling old buildings is often NOT cheaper than building new....so what if your ideas cost more than you think they should...would you still support them?
CS Foltz
January 17, 2010, 12:33:01 PMtufsu..........I am for the most cost efficient method! This is taking into account urban sprawl, transportation issue's and the walkability aspects! My biggest problem with the proposed "Transportation Center" is cost and location! I have seen nothing that says other locations were even considered or discussed......available Bldgs and so forth! Cost is only one part of the equation but availability is another. This is more down your alley than mine...........I am just a simple taxpayer who would like to get the most for my tax money! So here is your chance to convince me otherwise.......but based on what I have seen to this point, I am against the new Center when there are other Bldgs that may suit without building something else!
stjr
January 27, 2010, 10:09:22 PMLooks like JTA is still hiding the bus shelter data from the public after deceiving us with previous numbers on maintenance and costs. How do they get away with this? And, how do they expect us to believe anything else they say about this or other projects? JTA already has little credibility. It appears to be sinking to new lows.
stjr
February 10, 2010, 01:52:42 AMWant to know why we don't have street cars? Why our bus system is inadequate? Why we are hung with a $14 million a year loss $ky-high-way that hardly anyone rides? Why we are getting BRT shoved down our throats? Followed by a poorly planned intermodal center? And, urban sprawl projects like 9B and the Outer Beltway? While commuter rail remains but a dream? And, good bus service just as far afield? Why a multi-hundred million dollar transportation agency needs a few paltry bucks from bus shelter ads at the risk of bringing back billboards to our community by endangering our envy-of-the-nation billboard law?
Well, consider that JTA has become a manipulative and incompetent institution that will stop at nothing to promote itself and its underlying goals of fostering any projects that put easy money in its pocket, regardless of whether said projects are good or bad for the community JTA is supposed to serve.
Manipulation and incompetency show through listening to attorneys with conflicts of interests that speak to subjects they know not of, public officials with conflicts of interests, lying in bed with developers, being out of touch with Downtown and community planners, paying lip service to citizen complaints and input, providing blatant distribution of mis-information and inaccurate data or refusing to provide any data at all, incompetence at operating the bus system and the $ky-high-way, failing to seek competitive federal and state grants for good projects like commuter rail and street cars while taking the easy dollars for bad projects like BRT and the $ky-high-way ....
The developing pattern is that JTA prostitutes itself for the easy federal, state, and other dollars for roads we shouldn't build and questionable mass transit projects (that's why the money is easy, others are smart enough not to want these bad projects despite the easy money) while forgoing making the greater effort to seek truly competitive grants for projects that adhere to a set of consistent, common sense, and coherent priorities that would serve our community well.
Typifying much of the behavior of our "community leaders", JTA is satisfied to take what is easy, quick, "cheap" (only in the short run), but ultimately wasteful, expensive and detrimental to our community. And, then, JTA compounds its sins by promoting its "false accomplishments" to elevate its self esteem while leaving us citizens holding the bag of crud they have left us with.
JTA "Game of the Week" and cover over by Council President Clark and JTA mouthpiece Miller below:
CS Foltz
February 10, 2010, 07:21:23 AMThe CRC wonders why people are pushing for "Ethical Guidelines" to be Incorporated into the Charter? Some of the Commission has even gone so far as to say things such as "I don't see why it's needed" or "We already have limits" or "There is no corruption in our government"................what a wagon full of bull pucky ! This is a classic example of WHY we NEED Guidelines in black and white and on paper! That also might just slow down JTA since the Independent Agency's would be included! Your right stjr.............JTA has become a heho!
stjr
June 08, 2010, 12:52:23 AMCreative minds at work as bus shelter ad opponent helps craft bill to raise money for bus shelter maintenance from illegal sign fines. It would be ironic if JTA needs this fine money "found" by its opponent, Mr. Brinton, to make up for its own ad program shortfalls. JTA should take note how to get creative itself without selling us out.
CS Foltz
June 08, 2010, 06:55:03 AMI can see where signage is important, particularly in an area that is under construction or renovation, but I have misgivings about whether or not this will be applied even handedly! JTA has not shown much innovation or creativity to this point .....why would they change now? Infact......has anyone seen any evidence of them curbing costs, other than pushing for "Advertising" so that more shelters can be built?