1. Shift the focus to attracting entertainment and food oriented venues
The days of the Landing serving as a retail center which has the ability to draw residents from all over town are over. The Landing does not have the layout, the convenience, or the modern facilities to compete with newer centers such as the St. Johns Town Center or the Avenues Mall.
Despite the retail competition, it can establish an energetic scene by focusing on bringing in locally owned, non-chain businesses that will give the consumer a unique "Jacksonville Experience". Doing this would further cement the center as a place that draws tourists, as well as pulls in residents who currently spend most of their time on the other side of the river.
Like the Landing, when Rouse's Waterside Festival Marketplace was built in Norfolk, VA, it was a popular place for small shops and vendors. However, due to stiff competition from newer urban and suburban malls, the complex's days as a shopping center ended and the city reinvented the center to feature restaurants and nightclubs. Today, restaurants and nightclubs make up 97% of Waterside's retail square footage.
2. Promote Uniqueness
The Landing's central waterfront location and the rich history of the surrounding urban core are strong assets. Further, promote and strengthen the Landing's unique atmosphere by taking advantage of the city's history and the building's riverfront location.
List of Failed Rouse Marketplaces:
Water Street Pavilion - Flint, MI
Union Station - Indianapolis, IN
Portside - Toledo, OH
Sixth Street Marketplace - Richmond, VA
Festival Market - Lexington, KY
Saint Anthony Main - Minneapolis, MN
Bandana Square - Saint Paul, MN
West End Marketplace - Dallas, TX
Rouse Festival Marketplaces still open:
Riverwalk - New Orleans, LA
Harborplace - Baltimore, MD
Faneuil Hall - Boston, MA
Grand Avenue - Milwaukee, WI
Navy Pier - Chicago, IL
Jacksonville Landing - Jacksonville, FL
Bayside Marketplace - Miami, FL
Arizona Center - Phoenix, AZ
South Street Seaport - New York, NY
Waterside - Norfolk, VA
Station Square - Pittsburgh, PA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace
3. Invest a little money on updating the buildings 1980's era interior.
Walking inside the Landing is like taking a step into the era when Michael J. Fox was an A-List celebrity, the St. Johns had toll bridges, and the city smelled like the armpit of Florida. Any new marketing scheme for the Landing should come with a little focus spent on bringing the center's interior into the new millennium.
Although Downtown Louisville's Fourth Street Live! complex is filled with national chains, developers bought in a tenant mix that complemented the concept of making the block into a dining and entertainment oriented powerhouse in the heart of downtown.
4. Publicly back the local rail movement
Help get such a plan off the ground by lobbying City Hall and JTA to back the local rail movement. Studies prove that property values near rail stations typically increase over 25% over those not located near rail. A potential streetcar line running down Water Street would have the ability to bring hundreds of thousands of visitor a year right past the front door of the Landing.
In addition to this, the exposure would greatly enhance the value and marketability of the festival marketplace. While the parking garage issue may be important, with rail stopping at the Landing's front door, the center would become a much more attractive place for potential tenants and customers, than one with only a parking garage across the street.
Tampa's Channelside has seen an increase in business due to its connection with a streetcar line that connects the center with the convention center, downtown hotels and Ybor City. The Landing could also receive a similar boost if rail connected it with the Hyatt, Omni, Bay Street Station and the Prime Osborn Convention Center (future Jacksonville Transportation Center).
The above ideas are just a few suggestions to the Jacksonville Landing management from Metro Jacksonville. Feel free to take a minute and add your own ideas that will help reinvigorate the Landing.
Editorial written by Ennis Davis
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tpot
July 08, 2008, 07:20:49 AMThis whole argument about their not being any parking downtown is BS. I live in SPR and go downtown all the time. I have always found a spot to park not more than a block or two from where I am going.
The Landing is dated and a new parking garage is not going to turn this place around.
fsujax
July 08, 2008, 07:55:45 AMI do agree the Landing is dated and needs some major renovations. The parking issue will always be an issue for someone coming from the burbs. For those of us who live in the core, we know that there is plenty of parking, just poor signage.
copperfiend
July 08, 2008, 08:22:57 AMI agree that the parking situation is an issue for somebody coming from the suburbs. I also think there is parking available that people do not utilize. However, the parking signage is so poor that people would not even know it is available. I was in Baltimore last year and was amazed at the parking signage around the inner harbor.
Doctor_K
July 08, 2008, 08:38:38 AMthelakelander
July 08, 2008, 08:40:03 AMDowntown does have a ton of parking, its just unmarked. However, in the Landing's case, they believe they need a certain number of dedicated spaces to attract national chains that demand dedicated parking. This would basically mean taking a garage somewhere and dedicating all of its parking spaces to the Landing, as opposed to having general public parking or leasing a certain amount of spaces to nearby offices, etc. The closest city owned public parking garage is the Water Street garage, but its separated from the Landing by a few blocks of surface parking, making the walk between the two structures undesirable. A solution to this problem could be a streetcar line down Water from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt. While the streetcar line would bring other benefits, it would also directly tie in several garages and parking lots with the Landing, Omni, TU Center, Hyatt and the Convention Center, thus enabling them to take advantage of what's already in place. However, I don't see people here seriously thinking outside of the box and moving forward with something before Sleiman's garage goes vertical.
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 08:41:44 AMThe downtown signage ordinance has been revised, so signs are allowed. We probably need to edit it again to make garage and parking lot owners put up uniform signage indicating where short term public parking spaces are available.
Lunican
July 08, 2008, 08:44:49 AMI wonder how much a starter streetcar line on Water Street would cost compared to a new parking garage?
Doctor_K
July 08, 2008, 08:47:14 AMDoes the task of 'editing it again' fall to the city legislators? Would they be able to (figuratively speaking) slap an ordinance down outlining the what's, where's, and how's on that? Or would it be something more involving like including the various merchants' organizations in on such discussions?
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 08:57:02 AMIt should be something the city can do by enforcing the Downtown Master Plan the taxpayers paid for eight years ago, under the Delaney Administration. However, I would expect anything that would cost the private sector additional money would be best being debated in the open and involving merchants and the parking industry.
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 09:05:29 AMIt would be cheaper to construct a starter streetcar line. Water Street is approximately one mile. They could easily lay track and catenary in the street for less than $10 million. On the other hand, the new 1,385 space, courthouse garage cost $26 million.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=41913&text=parking%20garage
We will take a detailed look at costs in our three case studies, which make up the next section of this paper. In general, the answer to the question, “What does it cost?,” is the same answer J.P. Morgan gave when a reporter asked him, “Mr. Morgan, what is the stock market going to do?” The great financier replied, “It will fluctuate.”
Costs of streetcar lines vary widely, because the characteristics of streetcar lines vary widely. In fact, it can be difficult to obtain the construction cost of a streetcar line, because building the line is often part of a larger project that includes other elements.
San Francisco’s new F line provides a good example. This is a double-track streetcar line, built to Light Rail standards, which now carries almost 20,000 people per day (all in Vintage cars, we would note). The construction cost was about $30 million per mile, which is high even for Light Rail. But much of that money went for visual enhancements that have nothing to do with running streetcars, including extensive use of granite and marble and even planting palm trees along the right-of-way. A city that wanted just the streetcar line without the Carmen Miranda-style décor could build it for substantially less.
At the other end of the scale is the excellent and highly innovative two-mile streetcar line recently opened in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The total cost was just $4 million, or $2 million per mile, including five restored PCC streetcars.
Some other examples include:
Portland, Oregon, the only line using modern streetcars. The 4.6 mile loop line was constructed for $12.4 million per mile, including seven new streetcars, built in the Czech Republic.
Tampa, Florida, a 2.3 mile line built for $13.7 million per mile including eight Heritage streetcars. The cars themselves, replicas of 1920’s Birney streetcars, cost $600,000 each (compared to up to $3 million for a modern Light Rail Vehicle).
Little Rock, Arkansas, a 2.1 mile line built for $7.1 million per mile, including three streetcars.
San Pedro, California, a 1.5 mile line that recreates the old Pacific Electric “Red Cars” for $4 million per mile, including three streetcars, one Vintage and two Heritage.
full article: www.heritagetrolley.org/artcileBringBackStreetcars7.htm
ormolu611
July 08, 2008, 10:35:52 AMWell, I for one am in complete agreement that a parking garage is not going to do anything at all for the Landing. Parking is not the issue here . . . the isssue is that the landing is, well, completely unsatifying. It is perched on the river in what should be an excellent location, but it is not integrated with downtown at all. Walking by the place, there is nothing on the street side to give you any particular desire to go inside and check it out. It is as if the front of the place is facing the river and the landing effectively has its "back" turned towards downtown. I think the place should have "two fronts." The earlier idea of splitting the place and having Laura continue to the river (a pedestrian only version) would help. As it is right now, the place is too small, claustrophobic, and partitioned to be anything worth building more parking for. I mean its ridiculous - all downtown has is parking! It's everywhere! People just are loathe to walk a couple of blocks. I swear downtown has more parking garages than any other type of building in the area, and street parking galore.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 10:38:44 AMAn entertainment based, trolly backed Landing with an interior that looked more current than faux leather zipper jackets would be amazing.
Another thing that the Landing could do would be to convert the totally unused bottom to a seafood/ farmers market that combined the beaver street action with seafood a la Pikes Place Market in Seattle.
In Pikes Place, the shops and store keepers come and go just as rapidly as they do in the Landing (well at least the 'go' part) but the Seafood Market stays the same.
As any restauranteur or afficionado of seafood can tell you, there really isnt an adequate place to purchase it in the city until you get out to Fisherman's Wharf in Mandarin.
But if you highlighted some of our local restaurants, like The Loop, Peterbrookes Chocolates and featured a produce market along with a fresh seafood mercantile and threw in a good wineplace (or even a discount wine operation like Wine warehouse) and perhaps the excellent bread of The French Pantry, the Landing would be so clogged with people that it would take months for those bastards at Parking Enforcement to drive them all like bitter cattle from the downtown.
KenFSU
July 08, 2008, 10:53:25 AMWhat ever became of the plan to chop out the front end of the landing and open up the water to the street?
BridgeTroll
July 08, 2008, 10:59:26 AMAnother thing that the Landing could do would be to convert the totally unused bottom to a seafood/ farmers market that combined the beaver street action with seafood a la Pikes Place Market in Seattle.
In Pikes Place, the shops and store keepers come and go just as rapidly as they do in the Landing (well at least the 'go' part) but the Seafood Market stays the same.
I love Pikes Place... You can spend an entire day wandering the shops, watching the street performers... Ahhh Seattle...
vicupstate
July 08, 2008, 11:07:26 AMSleiman buying the Landing has been a lifesaver. If Rouse still owned it, it would probably be shuttered by now.
That said, I think he is 'waiting out' Peyton's term, so he can try to buy the land underneath. I just don't think he is going to invest the 'big money' until he owns the dirt too. Frankly, I don't blame him. Opening up the cener to Laura Street is a no-brainer, that the city should be working with him to accomplish. It would result in a loss of leaseable space (temporarily at least), but he has plenty to spare now.
Sleiman's reluctance to sign a 'Staples/Office max' type tenant is understandable in one sense, it doesn't fit the long-term goal. But I would like to see a short-term (2-3 years) lease given to one. Anything is better than vacant space, and it would provide a service for both the office workers and the DT residential population (albeit a small population currently).
I also like Stephen's idea about a Farmer/Seafood market. Open up the center through to Laura Street, and set up a Saturday and Sunday market on the patio areas if nothing else.
The dated look and significant vacancies would be an embarrassment in any other city, but in inferiority-complex Jacksonville, it is just accepted. As the T-U article quoted the Landing official, probably 85% of Jax visitors go there sooner or later. My guess is that was probably true for many years, but it probably is a lot lower than that now.
If you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 11:08:26 AMthelakelander
July 08, 2008, 11:22:53 AMStephen, you're dead on about the market idea. Even if they never opened the courtyard up to Laura Street, there's enough space facing Independent Drive, where this activity could be used to convert that area into a second front facing activity center.
rjp2008
July 08, 2008, 11:28:51 AMCouple points...
The seafood/farmer's market idea is fantastic! That's the key right there.
The landing should be the "International and Local Grocer Hub" of Jacksonville. You should be able to shop for Fresh Maine Lobsters and Florida Sailfish, Local Organic Produce, Costa Rican fruits, Asian/Filipino grocery items Polish deli meats, French breads and pastries, etc, etc.
All those condos going up downtown? Those people are not going to shop at Winn Dixie! They'll want Whole Foods class or better niche stuff.
It's not a "Landing", it's a Launchpad!
The Landing should be a multi-modal transport hub also! Extend the Skyway a couple blocks down Hogan Street right into the Landing itself.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 11:33:13 AMPlus food is a universal draw and no respector of persons.
Everyone has to eat.
Cool thing about the downstairs being a fresh food market is that it would be able to supply all the restaurants upstairs, and most likely all of downtown and the southbank as well.
vicupstate
July 08, 2008, 11:58:23 AMExactly, just start out using space between the courtyard and Water Steet (indoors and out). Just use tables and produce containers, nothing that would require a building permit. Do it every Saturday for a couple of months and see if it builds steam, before doing anything an expensive as altering the building.
Put live music on the stage too. Lots of produce, seafood and fresh bread, etc. would make a much better impression that papered over empty retail spaces.
Ocklawaha
July 08, 2008, 11:59:18 AMA mix of food, entertainment, and guy gadgets would be interesting. HELLO, are men no longer a market for anyone? When is the last time you got dragged from store to store to look at the pink bra, then the blue one, then the red one, then...
HELP!
If someone would trick out the corners with computers, games, hobbies, sports, electronics...We would all be dragging the ladies down the the landing! Moreover, we could wine and dine, and even THEY could shop.
Then just add STREETCAR and mix. Some unknown guy did this back about 1968 in Long Beach California, by buying an old "Tourist Court Motel", then then leased each cottage to a different "hobby"... Don't know if he is still there, but MY GOD, he had the busiest place in Southern California for years and years.
Ocklawaha
blizz01
July 08, 2008, 12:07:42 PMThey do it in San Francisco too on the weekends & it's awesome & enviable. Does Tony Sleiman read this?
tpot
July 08, 2008, 12:29:57 PMI agree! fantastic ideas here. Does anyone have his email address so we could send him this string.
After they build this garage I wonder what the next excuse will be as to why the landing still suks!!!!
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 12:35:09 PMAlthough Toney and Janice support this site, unfortunately they arent the blog checking types.
Whenever something relevant to them is on here and someone calls them to tell them they usually check it out.
Heres some contact info.
The Jacksonville Landing
353-1188
Janice Lowe is the general manager
jlowe@sleiman.com
Eazy E
July 08, 2008, 12:43:59 PMIf you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?
I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.
BridgeTroll
July 08, 2008, 01:02:34 PMI recently had visitors from San Jose and Vegas... both had a great time at Twisted Martini, Mavericks(my first time), people watching in the courtyard. It is a pretty intersting mix of humanity on Friday and Saturday nights...
copperfiend
July 08, 2008, 01:24:12 PMI was in the Landing courtyard a few months ago on a Friday afternoon. It was an interesting mix of guys in jean shorts and sleeveless shirts.
KenFSU
July 08, 2008, 02:45:43 PMIf you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?
I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.
The Town Center would ruin their visit?
With all due respect, I really dislike this sort of sentiment. The SJTC is absolutely nothing but a positive for the city of Jacksonville. It's the absolute premier shopping destination between Orlando and Atlanta full of stores that Jacksonville is a good decade away from even DREAMING of having in the core. Sucks, but it's the truth of the matter. Call it a glorified strip mall or whatever, but there's just no denying that it has been a massive success and is a wonderful thing for the suburbanites who, realistically, don't want to or will never want to jump on the highway and drive the 20, 30 or 40 mile round trip downtown might be for them.
Downtown's day will come, and I'm as excited as anyone about that, but economic growth and development elsewhere in the city is only going to bring more people to Jacksonville who will in turn spend more money. If a market this small can support an NFL team for over a decade, surely it can support a handful of commercial/entertainment districts in both the burbs and the urbs.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 02:55:39 PMI just got off the phone with Janice, and she is reading through the article as I type.
Shes going to call me back with feedback.
She might even figure out how to post on the board
77danj7
July 08, 2008, 03:05:00 PMAs stated a few times already Stephen's idea about a market would be amazing! As I have lived in Springfield for coming up on five years now I can clearly see how beneficial this would be to all of us as well as all of the "newcomers" who are moving into the core.
I know that my family for one would be frequenting the landing even more often than we do now.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 03:25:01 PMthanks man. same here! (Love fresh Tuna)
Steve
July 08, 2008, 03:57:33 PMThe parking thing is a little bit of an issue - national chains require it, and for a suburbanite, parking is difficult (notice I didn't say 'not available'). We are competing against St Johns Town Center, which has a sea of free parking. The landing will never have that.
As far as the signage thing, that was fixed in 2002 or 2003, but it took Starbucks putting a protruding siign on their Forsyth and Main property to wake everyone up that they were allowed (this was related no only to hard headedness in Public Works, but also sign contractors misleading retailers as far as what is required).
St John's Town Center has been a success because of the retailers entering the market, not because of St Johns Town Center itself. Remember, the expansion of Regency Square in the 80's was one of the final death knell's in downtown retail. Now, the Dillard's is turing into a clearance center. See what 20 years can do. I think it would be VERY interesting to see SJTC in 20 years.
To me one of the main issues is the construction - the most valuable space is where the food courts and their seating is. Think about this - the most valuable space in the building is where $4 lunches are sold, and remember, the seating area is not leasable (only the little closets where the food is sold at). This we can't blame Sleiman for.
Now, until the market improves, there won't be a lot of action. The Peyton Administration is solely to blame for this, for being very poor at negotiations. The dragged this thing on SO long that they missed the market (did they really think the market was going to stay like that)?
Now, there are some thing they can do to help - first, start with the list in the article, particularly the look and feel of the place. Second, come up with some sort of parking thing - even if people have to pay short term, partner with a garage to put a big sign on it (the 9 story one that is empty after 5 is a good start). That wouldn't be ideal, but it would take the parking situation from an F to a C
Doctor_K
July 08, 2008, 04:13:44 PMSince newer ways of thinking and planning like smart growth and new urbanism are more overt of an issue now than they were in the 80s (if they even existed as fleshed-out in the 80s as they are now?), even if Jax remains slow to adapt to such thinking, is it possible that the SJTC could remain as viable a commercial entity then as it seems to be now?
That, coupled with the trend of 'urban' villages/'town centers' (we've all hashed the validity of the term in other threads, but I use it here loosely anyway) sprouting up all over the place (ok - the Southside), and nothing but mid-density residential going up as well?
Normally I'd tend to agree with you, in theory, about the "let's see what such-and-such looks like in 20 years" argument; but at the same time, a lot can happen between now and then that could make the SJTC (and let's not overlook the successes in their own rights of others like Oak Leaf, River City Marketplace, and however many others there are now, too) a different animal from the Regency comparison.
Or am I just hoping for too much and talking out of my arse?
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 04:24:51 PMImo, SJTC will ultimately be as successful as the neighborhood around it. All the land planning in the world won't help if the surrounding area goes down the tubes or doesn't remain the popular place to be in Jacksonville. My pick is that some significant redevelopment and a change in tenant mix will happen eventually, because the housing being constructed around the center is pretty substandard and the infrastructure in that general area is poorly laid out.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 04:37:17 PMJanice is online right now.
And she wants to reiterate that parking is a major problem for the Landing mainly for the purposes of the crime perception.
People need to be able to see their cars from the Landing, she reminded me. The Suburban customers are still kindof scared about the idea of crime.
She loved and agreed with all the ideas and the criticisms, expecially with the statement that the Landing has its back to Downtown, and is sending over a rendering of one of the scenarios where The Landing could interact with Downtown even if they dont cut through the building.
Doctor_K
July 08, 2008, 04:44:31 PMAwesome! Would you be able to post it for all?
Driven1
July 08, 2008, 04:50:32 PMimo, the landing ain't doing crap for sometime. the local economics don't support it.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 04:57:35 PMDriven1
July 08, 2008, 04:59:36 PMcool...can you pull up the renderings from 2005 that were supposed to happen back then? i loved those.
Downtown Dweller
July 08, 2008, 05:03:37 PMFunny I just got back from a small town in CA that has national chains right downtown without any dedicated parking...In fact the options of stores and eateries in this small town of 58K BLOWS Jacksonville away! There must be something besides parking holding downtown and the landing back.
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 05:05:58 PMWhat's the name of the town? Does it have rail transit, is it dense or a part of a larger metropolitan area?
Downtown Dweller
July 08, 2008, 05:11:46 PMSan Luis Obsipo, it is 58K pop, with a college so most likely doubles in pop once a year. It is a stand alone city (although five cities and Atascadero, Morro Bay, Paso Robles are all very close). They are very "anti chain" and it took them about 10 years to get a home depot! I took pics of downtown, including the new proposed "China Town" developement area, and of course "Bubble Gum Alley" I just need to give them to Stephen. This is the same town that had HORRENDOUS vagrant and homeless feeding issues downtown just five years ago, a new day center outside the city limits, and a few loitering/cruising laws have created a booming downtown center.
BTW the biggest employer in SLO is the State of California and the county itself (about one hour north of Santa Barbara)
Oops... they have Amtrak, but no "metro rail", they do have a pretty aggresive bus and van pool system, and great bike lanes on every single road.
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 05:20:47 PMThat Day Center.
It would change things dynamically here.
Janice Lowe seemed jazzed about a market concept a la Pike's Place.
It would be easy to implement, and wouldnt require the total restructuring of the Landing in order to turn into a positive that faces both downtown and the river.
Downtown Dweller
July 08, 2008, 05:24:59 PMI did not take a pic of the day center, but I can maybe ask someone to do so... I'll see maybe I can map it too
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 08, 2008, 05:31:55 PMIf you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?
I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.
Haha! I think I love you Easy E
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 06:04:32 PMany reader suggestions for the Landing?
Dapperdan
July 08, 2008, 06:51:17 PMMy suggestions are:
1) to make the entire front as much glass as possible, adding vibrant signage and lighting
2) Install custom LED lights around the top horseshoe roof that can change to any color depending on events and seasons
3) completely redo all exterior and interior appearances just like the much improved Orange Park mall did
Jax2024
July 08, 2008, 06:55:20 PMTwo Words: Irish Pub. Not a fake Irish Pub that confuses Mc and O' with legitimacy. Just a real, not chain, Irish, pub where people can go after work for a drink without feeling like they should have changed into their gold-pinstriped muscle shirt (Twisted) or their jean shorts (Hooters). Preferably it would have a small soundstage and enough sound insulation to block out the blaring DJ music coming from the fountain. Honestly, the Twist is a cool song and all, but seriously? that loud?
blizz01
July 08, 2008, 07:07:21 PMAs much as I hate chains - BAHAMA BREEZE! TILTED KILT! UNO! LANDRY'S! CALIFORNIA PIZZA KITCHEN!
Weekend Farmer's Market - NOT A FLEA MARKET or BAZAAR - inside & out - Fresh meats, herbs, seafood, produce, spices, artisans, musicians, street performers, wine, microbrews, chocolate, baked goods - NO CARNIES; NO Seedy types selling boiled peanuts, 3 watermelons, some "greens" & cross-stitched Florida/Georgia wall art or silk screened T-shirts or ferrets ...................oh yeah, no pit bull puppies either!
The interior/facade doesn't bother me as much considering that when I was @ Harborplace in Baltimore it seemed to have the same aesthetic feel (I swear the Landing may have been assembled with spare parts from that project), but with more life OUTSIDE to supplement. For the record, I'd still take JAX over Baltimore ANYDAY.......
civil42806
July 08, 2008, 09:49:14 PMWhat was the story about the landing forcing Fat Tuesdays out? If I remember correctly the landing refused to renew there lease. Fat Tuesdays was always crowded, can anyone referesh my memory or shed some light?
stephendare
July 08, 2008, 10:52:44 PMFat Tuesdays was pretty awesome
thelakelander
July 08, 2008, 11:10:26 PM1. Add glass storefronts to the NW side, as indicated in the rendering Janice supplied. The direct exposure to the Independent Drive and Hogan Streets, enhances the value of space that currently sits vacant and under utilized.
2. Add enough sidewalk space in front of those storefront for outdoor use, thus turning the under utilized pocket park into another activity center.
People attract people. Decent sidewalk space would allow for activities such as outdoor dining to become a part of the Independent Drive scene. If you can fill the sidewalks, others will have an urge to come over to take part in what looks like people having a great time.
3. Target locally based established businesses like Mojo BBQ, Peterbrooke, etc. to consider opening outlets in the remaining available vacant spaces.
Boston's Faneuil Hall is an attractive place, partially because of the ability to house a decent number of local dining establishments that cater serving guests locally based cruisine.
4. A public locally themed marketplace (as Stephen suggested earlier) along the Independent Drive side that stretches from Laura Street to the new glass storefronts and Mongos on the NW side.
a market with attractive uniform tents can be used to turn the north side of the center into a popular place that pulls people into the complex from Downtown's streets.
5. A spring cleaning of the interior with a little money spent on updating the decor and lighting of the structure.
6. Publicly support the idea of running a streetcar down Water Street. This would enable to city/Landing to use the Water Street Garage for additional parking, as well as connect the center to the Convention Center, Omni, Hyatt and TU Center. It would be cheaper to set up than building additional parking garages, plus it would bring significant exposure to the center, making it more viable and attractive for additional private investment.
I think these are some things can be done for an affordable price, yet have a great positive impact on the center without having to immediately physically alter the facility's footprint.
vicupstate
July 08, 2008, 11:59:51 PMGreenville has a DT Saturday Market from April-October, from 8:00 am until noon. There is a Farmer's Market just outside the city limits that is more like the Beaver St. facility in Jax. This is more of a niche market.
Offerings include: Produce (of course), seafood, plants, fresh cuts flowers and arrangements, cooking demonstrations, live music, fresh baked bread, Locally processed Coffee, Gourmet Pet treats/toys, candles and the like, etc.
Since the DT restaurants don't open for breakfast by and large, the market brings people DT during an otherwise slow period. The street reopens just as the Saturday lunch crowd starts arriving. A corporate sponsor contributes towards expenses.
triclops i
July 09, 2008, 02:28:01 AMI dont post often... but...
start from scratch. Make it an art museum or aquairium.
Any one that has been here from around day one knows it always has been, and always will be, crap.
Make it a public school.
My word...
David
July 09, 2008, 02:55:51 AMWell Mr Ian,
you obviously haven't had the bbq chicken from the cajun express son!
it's worth 5.99.
naw i'm playin. just raze it. build a mega-memorial park in it's place.
Keith-N-Jax
July 09, 2008, 03:21:11 AMFAT TUESDAY'S pushed out because it was drawing to many blacks,dont forget Jax is somewhat a racist city,atleast thats what I heard and I believe it.Too bad Tony was not able to move forward with his plans.IMO Jax is too old fashion,dumb,etc,,most other cities hosting a Super Bowl would have had there Landing up to speed well before the vistors arrived.
civil42806
July 09, 2008, 08:06:42 AMFat Tuesday drawing primarily african americans? When was that? Every time I went in there you needed sunglasses because the crowd was so white.
fsujax
July 09, 2008, 08:28:48 AMThere are so many things the Landing could do to make it better. Open it up to the heart of Downtown, provide outside dining, markets, etc. along the north and west sides of the Landing. Redo the 80's look inside the Landing. Add more colorful lights, Plasma screens, scrolling digital signs, etc. Just a few thoughts. I did notice on that rendering, there was a Panera Bread shown, that wouldn't be a bad idea. I know some people have things against national chains, but those chains could help draw people to the Landing, especially something like a Cheesecake Factory, big names draw people!
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 09, 2008, 08:44:45 AMIts true, in its last days it was predominantly African American.
stephendare
July 09, 2008, 08:58:05 AMIts true, in its last days it was predominantly African American.
Then they 'fixed' that, by demanding ID for anyone coming to the landing after 9pm and charging 'cover' to get into the Landing itself.
It only took about 6 months of that and nightlife at the Landing ended abruptly.
Of course thats way before the Sleiman buyout.
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 09, 2008, 09:12:30 AMOh yes! I totally forgot about that. Probably because I was not allowed in after 9PM when they started that ;0)
urbanlibertarian
July 09, 2008, 12:06:13 PMLove all the ideas for a fresh market, streetcar (privately financed, of course) and street side activity area.
However I don't think the city should force downtown parking businesses to put up signage advertising their product. Can't government help things along without passing an ordinance or regulation? Couldn't the city just work the parking businesses and other downtown merchants and come up with something that is voluntary?
thelakelander
July 09, 2008, 12:09:15 PMImo, the city should lead by example and put decent "P" signage on their own garages.
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 09, 2008, 12:11:07 PMYes, P Signage is much needed cause there is plenty of parking downtown. Ive lived here my entire life and frequent Downtown. I have not ever had to turn around and leave because I couldnt find a parking spot.
finding it is half the battly.
stephendare
July 09, 2008, 12:21:42 PMIt sounds like this trolley deal would save the Landing 16 million dollars or so.
Is that an accurate guess?
thelakelander
July 09, 2008, 12:25:46 PMI don't think Sleiman is paying for the proposed garage across the street. Kuhn's former buddy is going to construct it. Its supposed to include parking for the tower next door, as well as the Landing.
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 09, 2008, 12:45:13 PMIs that an accurate guess?
I think Stephen and I spoke of this in person recently, the Trolley is turning out to be a pretty good deal, now we just need to expand the hours...and I hear thats a definite possibility for the near future.
Im not sure of the $ amount of savings, but 16M is no chump change.
thelakelander
July 09, 2008, 01:06:53 PMI think Stephen is referring to a real starter streetcar/light rail line that would run down Water Street, from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt.
Assuming its privately funded, the Landing would not have to fit the bill alone. The City, JTA and major landowners along the route would all have to work together to construct a mile long line that could be less than $10 million total.
KenFSU
July 09, 2008, 02:09:59 PMI've always really enjoyed the Moonlight Movies they do out at the beach. I wonder if a similar classic movie concept could work at the Landing now that they have the big screen up. Could be a regular thing, or maybe seasonal (horror movies in October, holiday movies in December, romantic comedies in February, blockbusters in the summer). It would be cheaper than putting on a concert and seems like it would have the potential to draw people in who would in turn spend money at the restaurants and shops. Throw up some popcorn and refreshment vendors and you've got yourself a fine afternoon or evening. I for one think it'd be pretty cool to go to the Landing during December, watch Home Alone on the big screen under the warm glow of the Christmas tree, and drink some delicious hot cocoa with my wife. It would give me a reason to go there, and I know I would end up spending money at the shops and getting lunch or dinner while I was there.
A more casual boat tour would also be cool. Something you could hop on with no obligation to eat dinner or take to a set destination. More of a boat that just casually circles around downtown, picks up and drops off from various locations, plays music, etc. You have dinner at the Landing, you hop on the boat, hang out, have a few drinks, enjoy the ride, maybe meet some new friends. I love similar tours down in Los Olas in Ft. Lauderdale. The water taxi is far too practical and no-frills to be considered an entertainment option. You pay $5, sit in the dark, take a 10 minute loop in silence, and then either have to get off or pay another $5 to take another 10 minute loop. A rip off if you're in it for the scenery, but I'd gladly pay $10 plus drink costs to have a fun experience on the St. Johns.
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 09, 2008, 02:16:51 PMThats an awesome idea Ken. I too have enjoyed Moonlight Movies at the Beach several times. They were also doing them at Treaty Oak on the Southbank (Movies in the Park) this past April, I wasnt able to attend any of them so I dont know how attendance was. But the ones at the beach were always packed.
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2008/04/movies-in-park.html
BridgeTroll
July 09, 2008, 03:01:06 PMA booze cruise from the Landing!! Wahoo!
rjp2008
July 09, 2008, 10:09:50 PMThe movie idea is also very good. All the successful mixed-use retail urban centers have movie theaters - Jax Landing does not. Movie theatres work because it brings after hours money in, and it's family friendly. Which brings me to...
Shift the focus to family-friendly/kid-friendly activities/venues
Was down there for a bit tonight and I realized there's almost nothing for children there. What's worse, it's so Hardrock-bar oriented now, that it drives a possible kid audience away.
So how bout exchanging some of those tennants for...
A special kids YMCA fitness center
A massive rock/climbing wall/funhouse thing
A dance/music school area for kids
A permanent Wii station with massive TV screen
Ocklawaha
July 09, 2008, 10:44:27 PMHowever I don't think the city should force downtown parking businesses to put up signage advertising their product. Can't government help things along without passing an ordinance or regulation? Couldn't the city just work the parking businesses and other downtown merchants and come up with something that is voluntary?
I think Stephen and I spoke of this in person recently, the Trolley is turning out to be a pretty good deal, now we just need to expand the hours...and I hear thats a definite possibility for the near future.
For CERTAIN Stephen, Lakelander, and a handfull of others are talking about REAL STREETCARS on REAL TRACKS with REAL WIRE OVERHEAD. Faux trolleys will NEVER create a tourist boom, and not in any way gauge the success of a real streetcar line. Even the craftsmanship in our PCT Trolleys, Stephen raved about in another thread, will pale in the light of the old world craftsmanship in a REAL streetcar. It's the difference in fine imported carvings and woodcuttings and a really pretty mobile home. They both have wood inside, and are both well made, but worlds apart.
As for privately financed, THAT is possible. It might happen as either a musuem, a for-profit corportation or some of both (we already have them up and running as corporations). It might also be a City function. In any case it should not damage the hands-off view of some political party's. A mile long test streetcar line could be strung down Water Street, and perhaps a tiny bit of Lee or Davis for example. A small museum and shop at Lee or Davis, near the massive parking, serves the landing AND the Skyway, AND the Transit Center, AND any new BAY STREET STATION development area. The streetcar museum itself will draw about 500,000 visitors per year downtown. Backed up by TWO regional marketing firms, including a recent one. That's about 6 Super Bowl games full of "NEVER BEEN TO JAX FOR ANYTHING" trouists. They visit the museum, ride the streetcars, and gosh-gee-batman, they end up on River Walk, the Hyatt, Bay Street Station, Omni, Landing, Florida Theater and God knows where else. Suddenly that empty "parking garage site" becomes a new highrise, Then another and another, Soon with streetcar and skyway expansion, another dozen go up. The building boom reaches ONE BILLION DOLLARS! WHY? Because THAT is what streetcars are causing to happen in cities all over the country. 1 Billion, 1.4 Billion, 5 Billion, 2.3 Billion etc... Now just how much would that REALLY cost us even if the city financed 100% of it? Factor in the new taxes, tourism, and building boom and we end up with a net gain of hundreds of millions OVER ANY JTA BUS PLAN!
AMAZING? Maybe so, but the facts are hard numbers, industry published and internationally accepted.
WE CAN AND SHOULD DO THIS NOW...
"CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! WENT THE TROLLEY..."
Ocklawaha
thelakelander
July 09, 2008, 10:48:53 PMA lot cheaper than the money we've already wasted on the courthouse site.
stephendare
July 09, 2008, 11:38:15 PMIs that an accurate guess?
I think Stephen and I spoke of this in person recently, the Trolley is turning out to be a pretty good deal, now we just need to expand the hours...and I hear thats a definite possibility for the near future.
Im not sure of the $ amount of savings, but 16M is no chump change.
no kidding jc!
Galois
July 10, 2008, 12:56:10 AMEasy. Bring Club Paris Back.
jacksonvilleconfidential
July 10, 2008, 01:18:32 AMUm. NO! Check our review.
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2007/02/club-paris-review.html
brainstormer
July 10, 2008, 07:25:13 PMI have to agree that the Landing is very non-family oriented. I was recently in Baltimore and their Inner Harbor is awesome. Not only is there a great mix of upscale chain restaurants, but also smaller cafes and retail. There were many families with kids as well as the traditional tourist groups, cameras in hand. You can rent paddle boats and their many unique museums are all geared towards family enjoyment. I also think opening up the landing so one could see the river from Laura Street would be a huge improvement.
WhatsUpJacksonville
July 11, 2008, 10:31:56 AMI agree that the layout of the Landing is all wrong for attracting consistent visitors - residents and tourists alike. The suggestions made in the original post are all valid; however, I completely agree with brainstomer about opening the landing so you can see the river from Laura Street as well as from other venue's within the Landing. The river is such a huge asset and attraction to downtown and the insular layout of the Landing is not very friendly. The focal point of all venues within the Landing should be the river, but instead most shops and restaurants have their backs to it. Why would someone drive all the way downtown to sit in a restaurant on the river but be unable to veiw it?
copperfiend
July 11, 2008, 11:19:50 AMI was at the Inner Harbor last year and it certainly has many things that our downtown/southbank should have. Parking garages with proper signage, a Navy ship available for tours, an aquarium, an ESPN Zone...
rjp2008
July 18, 2008, 06:57:14 AMAnother impression after visiting it again - a giant sports bar for adults, with nothing for children/teens. Toss out some of the bars, or put them upstairs some where out of the way. Bottom level should be everything just for kids and youth.