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Johnson & Wales University anchors Uptown Charlotte's vibrant Gateway Village, a development similar to Jacksonville's proposed Brooklyn Park.
Attracting colleges to invest and anchor in urban environments has become a common practice in many cities across the country. For example, in 2004, Charlotte officials enticed Johnson & Wales University to relocate from Norfolk and Charleston, SC to Uptown Charlotte.
The culinary school was attracted with an incentive package that included discounted land, tax breaks, and other incentives that made the move a feasible one. Since that time, the small school has expanded to 2,500 students with more growth anticipated.
In most cases, cities have had to convince these institutions by advocating the benefits of becoming part of an urban setting. Very rarely does a school spend years trying to fight their way into the urban core only to be turned away due to something as simple as parking issues.
In 2002, Florida Coastal Law School had outgrown its Beach Blvd. location. While school officials made their desires for a downtown Jacksonville campus known, they also expressed concern that the rising costs of downtown property were making such a move too expensive to handle. The school's desire for a downtown location was expressed again in a 2004 Jacksonville Daily Record article:
With no new site on the horizon, there’s certainly no moving day marked on the calendar. If the pieces can be brought together, Wippman would prefer to move downtown, to a place suitable for expansion.
“Personally,” he said, “I have a strong preference for the city. I’m a lawyer. If I were looking for a job right now as a lawyer, I would want to be in close proximity to where the jobs are.
“We are proceeding with the assumption that downtown is better. We’re hoping that we can find a suitable location to get there.”
Despite, Florida Coastal's desire for a downtown location, the school would ultimately end up completing the purchase of a 220,000-square-foot Baymeadows office building and 1,400-space parking garage in 2006. According to school officials, a downtown location was nixed because of a lack of available parking.
“Downtown would have been a nice location obviously and we worked hard with the JEDC and the mayor’s office to try to make it work,” he said. “It was somewhat an issue of economics, but really it was the parking issues that couldn’t be addressed."
Around the same time, plans were underway for a new 1,375-space courthouse garage on one of the seven blocks that will eventually occupy the proposed Duval County Courthouse Complex. If parking really was the issue that sent Florida Coastal to the Southside, perhaps the solution could have been to develop a garage with twice as many spaces, along with a courthouse building occupying a reduced amount of land area.
This would have allowed the construction of a new law school campus adjacent to the proposed county courthouse. The new school's faculty and students would have strengthened downtown's appeal by increasing the need for retail, dining, housing and additional market rate development. If given the same opportunity and conditions, one can't help but wonder if local officials in peer cities like Charlotte, Orlando or Tampa would have settled for the same result?
The courthouse site could have been part of a creative solution to bring Florida Coastal School of Law and complementing market rate development downtown.
Sources:
Downtown law school possible, but unlikely
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=2153
Florida Coastal eager to find new site
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=40301
Florida Coastal Plans January Move
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=43292
Florida Coastal closes on Deerwood building
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2006/01/30/daily39.html
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copperfiend
December 08, 2008, 08:32:15 AMThis is the legacy of the Peyton administration. Baymeadows Way is now home to the Florida Coastal School of Law and the Jacksonville Art Institute. Another missed opportunity.
vicupstate
December 08, 2008, 08:49:51 AMGreat article. I would suggest a followup article on the kind of impact Johnson & Wales has actually had and what it took to land them. Savannah with it's Savannah College of Art and Design campus would be another case to look at.
vicupstate
December 08, 2008, 10:06:01 AMSince J & W opened UNC-C and Wake Forest have also added Uptown satelite campuses. A major addition to the UNC-C satelite is set to start soon.
GatorShane
December 08, 2008, 12:30:04 PMI could only imagine what Lavilla would look like with the new courthouse, Florida Coastal School of Law, The Jax Art Institute and Bay Street Station. We have no progressive thinkers in our city govt. when it comes to development. What a missed opportunity!
JaxByDefault
December 08, 2008, 12:35:29 PMA blinding failure of the Peyton administration.
It's more than 1500+ more people eating lunch downtown, but even that should have gotten the city's attention. FloCo downtown would have brought a steady stream of students, professors, and staff that would lived, worked, and played in the urban core. The move would have helped not only downtown development but would have aided Springfield, Riverside, and the other urban neighborhoods. As a city trying to attract large businesses and more professionals, a downtown law library--which would have come with FloCo--would have been a nice asset. FloCo may be developed on a "for profit" model, but it's a stable business that is pretty recession proof (people love going back to school in down times).
I know my FloCo interns wished they had access to bookstores, restaurants, and coffee shops between classes. Professor friends assert that a downtown location would have been better for academic prestige and faculty morale; the city would certainly benefit PRwise as well.
I am amazed at this city's repeated inability to equate tax incentives and temporary abatements with growth and long-term tax revenue increase.
Parking downtown is not in short supply. Even if the city (inexplicably) couldn't address parking for the law school with new construction, commercial rate (or student discounted) parking fees are a reality at many urban campuses. They could have worked out some deals with the parking interests (many of whom have city-backed guaranteed profit contracts).
JeffreyS
December 08, 2008, 02:05:45 PMSo the JEDC and the could not figure out the parking to get the law school by the Courthouse and the Art institute next to Lavilla's art school while the entire site has already been leveled. Also in the area of the proposed transportation center. They did not even have to sell them on a downtown location they already wanted it. I have never felt worse about our mayor.
copperfiend
December 08, 2008, 02:17:04 PMI would say Peyton has been a disaster but that might be an insult towards disasters.
brainstormer
December 08, 2008, 06:41:28 PMI didn't live here when the move to downtown for Florida Coastal was up for discussion, but after reading the article, find the whole ordeal hard to fathom. I can't think of one good reason to not have supported this. What were they thinking? This would have been a wonderful asset for revitalizing downtown. We have plenty of open land downtown and urban schools all over the US make the parking situation work. My respect for this mayor is now below negative percent, if that is possible. I'm afraid this week's articles will be even more depressing, but I hope they create awareness of what a failure Peyton is. I've said it before, but we need to recall him, before he ruins even more of this city's future.
Coolyfett
December 08, 2008, 08:00:09 PMturtles.
heights unknown
December 08, 2008, 08:04:08 PMPeyton just don't get it does he? Another sorely missed opportunity to fill in downtown and add density and even a few more scrapers. Sure will be glad when he's history.
Heights Unknown
civil42806
December 08, 2008, 08:29:37 PM"all the way down"
coredumped
December 08, 2008, 08:58:39 PMPerhaps the UNF partnership with Museum of Contemporary Art underway can pick up where this may have left off. With 16,000 students going to UNF, it would be nice if they had a true downtown campus offering all different types of classes. I'm sure parking downtown is comparable to university parking
thelakelander
December 08, 2008, 10:08:05 PMIt would be nice. After all UNF once had a downtown campus in the same building during the 1970s.
JeffreyS
December 09, 2008, 01:46:21 PMYou Know the schools would have piggy backed each other. You get the Law School and Art Academy then FCCJ Expansion and UNF would have to get in on that. Find some Connection with EWC suddenly you have a lively downtown scene private money would want to have a part of. All of the businesses who haven't seen downtown as viable would have that as a real choice. I do not even want to think of how improved the commuter rail studies would look if they converged on those campuses in an urban area.
ProjectMaximus
December 09, 2008, 02:39:12 PMThere's no emoticon to express my feelings right now.
Surfjaxpier
December 09, 2008, 08:08:59 PMI don't know how many times it has to be said, but there is too much parking downtown! This was even pointed out by the consultant from Gannett Fleming in the context of commuter rail feasibility. Too much free or low cost parking is a disincentive for rail. Wake up leaders! If we continue to have our suburban zoning code, with its illustrious off street parking requirements drive development, Downtown will continue to lose the battle to all of the new Baymeadows Ways and Gate Parkways of the region.
ProjectMaximus
December 10, 2008, 12:13:45 AMMany many times. welcome, surfjax
cireewol
December 11, 2008, 07:25:30 AMI don't blame the city; Florida Coastal School of Law is a rip off! Has anyone checked their fees? They are 4 times the cost of most state-run schools! They remind me of the John Marshall program in Atlanta, claiming to specialize in the "forgotten market" - women and minorities.
I don't think they should even be allowed a license!
civil42806
December 11, 2008, 08:12:36 AMI don't think they should even be allowed a license!
Its a private school, private schools are always much more expensive than public ones.
Traveller
December 11, 2008, 08:22:15 AMNot just private. For profit.
ChriswUfGator
December 11, 2008, 08:30:09 AMWTF?
You can't compare a private school with state schools and then act surprised that the private school is more expensive. That's retarded. Private schools will naturally have higher tuition, because they aren't funded by your tax dollars and have to be self-supporting.
There are only 4 state law schools in Florida, with the incoming 1L class at UF having around 400 people, FAMU has about 300 new admits, FIU has about 350 new admits, and FSU takes in around 400 new admits. So, IN THE ENTIRE STATE there are somewhere around 1,500 slots available ON AN ANNUAL BASIS for state law schools. This state has 18.1 million residents, so do the math there. Private schools are a necessary part of the system, at least to the extent that you consider lawyers to be a necessary part of the system. I know that part is debatable. Lol.
And as to "for profit", that may be, but the line between that and a "not for profit" private school is nonexistent from the student's perspective. Stetson University is a not-for-profit, yet their tuition is higher than FCSL's, and their bar passage rate is inferior. And then take Barry University in Orlando, they claim to be not-for-profit, but gimme a break, they're Catholic...talk about a big BUSINESS...the catholic church is one of the biggest.
happical
December 11, 2008, 03:04:12 PMDoes anyone know when Peyton's term is up?? What about the City Council?
I think some Metro Jax members should run...
ProjectMaximus
December 11, 2008, 03:35:54 PMTrue. Meaning they get absolutely no govt subsidy.
I'm skeptical of for-profit educational institutions too, but I give Florida Coastal the benefit of the doubt.
Charles Hunter
December 11, 2008, 09:32:23 PMI think some Metro Jax members should run...
The next City elections are Spring 2011. *sigh*
RiversideGator
December 11, 2008, 11:57:40 PMThere are way too many lawyers out there. Go into a productive line of work.
happical
December 12, 2008, 12:18:49 AMOh my, what a shame. I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that Jacksonville is so spread out land-wise. Downtown has yet to be a big city center and the majority of Jax-civilians DON'T live in or near downtown so they don't really see the urgent need for change there. It is sad though for those of us who do, and who see its potential. I'm sure the south-siders just love how great of a job the city council is doing. Pft. I guess all we can do now is hold our breaths for 2011!
thelakelander
December 12, 2008, 02:58:22 AMI don't think we can use the spread out land-wise thing as an excuse. Nashville, Indianapolis, Columbus, Charlotte, Oklahoma City and Louisville are all spread out land-wise yet still have vibrant downtowns. We've had just as much investment in our core as these places but we've done a poor job of creating synergy between various new and existing developments.
avonjax
December 14, 2008, 03:34:50 PMSadly in 2011 you will see the same ole story....
JeffreyS
December 16, 2008, 09:04:07 PMHow did the dropping the ball with the Law school and Art institute correlate time wise with our turning our nose up at the Florida State medical school?
I sure would hate to have our Urban Core's culture being influenced by tomorrow's lawyers, doctors and artists.
brainstormer
December 16, 2008, 09:53:43 PMWhat?
Charles Hunter
December 16, 2008, 10:07:02 PMwihtgar
June 08, 2009, 08:34:38 PMThey are better off without Coastal. The school is a rip off. It's the worst ranked law school in America, but charges about the same as Duke University. Whether it's private or not it's a pure scam. 98% of the people who graduate from there won't find a job that pays decent wages in the legal field.
fatcat
June 09, 2009, 05:52:11 AMI will take any rip off college over a homeless feeding station. I think the Mayor and certain people intentionally want to make the downtown a homeless central.
vicupstate
June 09, 2009, 06:43:39 AMCan you back any of this up?
fsujax
June 09, 2009, 06:58:47 AMI thought they had one of the highest pass rates of the Florida Bar than any other law school in the state? maybe I am mistaken?
xian1118
June 09, 2009, 09:04:45 AMCan you back any of this up?
That comment sounds like it came straight from the mouth of someone who gave FCSL a go and didn't graduate. The school is accredited by the American Bar Association and according to their website "Coastal Law graduating classes consistently pass the bar in Florida, most recently with an 85.2 percent pass rate in February 2008. That rate placed Coastal Law third among Florida's 10 law schools and was almost nine points higher than the state average." Calling it a "pure scam" sounds like libel to me, and I'm not lawyer.
I can vouch for several graduates who have found great jobs in the legal community after graduating from FCSL. The school is especially great for those who want to earn a law degree but can't move to a different city to do so.
JoeMerchant
June 09, 2009, 09:10:12 AMKarl_Pilkington
June 09, 2009, 09:36:14 AMyeah, jason you and I must know the same 2%.
law schools are just trade schools they aren't teaching neurosurgery or rocket science. the costal grads that I know (and no I didn't go there either) are very competent. Heck you think that going to some prestigious school like Harvard or Yale makes you smart? just look at John Yoo, complete idiot, I'd take a coastal grad over this baffoon any day.
fatcat
June 10, 2009, 10:08:06 AMhmm, I think we are talking about the mayor not the school in this thread. Can we back on topic?
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 07:11:57 AMYou're a idiot.
FCSL is not the worst-ranked in America, it's not even close. Even within this state, it consistently has a higher bar passage rate than Stetson, FIU, FSU, Barry, and FAMU. And as to the cost, it's LESS EXPENSIVE than Stetson or Barry University, which are both "not-for-profit" schools with inferior bar passage rates.
You clearly haven't read the USNWR rankings, so where exactly did you get your 'facts' from? Baghdad Bob?
tufsu1
June 16, 2009, 08:18:42 AMum...really?
from what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
Traveller
June 16, 2009, 09:30:15 AMFlorida is about to get another law school. Ave Maria School of Law, a Catholic law school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, has announced it will be moving to Naples. It will be the 11th law school in the state, and the fourth new law school opening in the past decade.
1. Stetson University (1900) - Gulfport/Tampa
2. University of Florida (1909) - Gainesville
3. University of Miami (1926) - Coral Gables
4. Florida State University (1966) - Tallahassee
5. Nova Southeastern University (1974) - Davie
6. St. Thomas University (1984) - Miami Gardens
7. Florida Coastal School of Law (1996) - Jacksonville
8. Barry University (1999) - Orlando
9. Florida A&M University (2000) - Orlando (prior law school closed 1968)
10. Florida International University (2000) - Miami
11. Ave Maria School of Law (2009) - Naples
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 09:50:02 AMfrom what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 09:55:42 AM1. Stetson University (1900) - Gulfport/Tampa
2. University of Florida (1909) - Gainesville
3. University of Miami (1926) - Coral Gables
4. Florida State University (1966) - Tallahassee
5. Nova Southeastern University (1974) - Davie
6. St. Thomas University (1984) - Miami Gardens
7. Florida Coastal School of Law (1996) - Jacksonville
8. Barry University (1999) - Orlando
9. Florida A&M University (2000) - Orlando (prior law school closed 1968)
10. Florida International University (2000) - Miami
11. Ave Maria School of Law (2009) - Naples
The state's population has also increased something like 65.8% in the last two decades.
tufsu1
June 16, 2009, 10:22:46 AMfrom what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
please explain...the one link provides history...and FSU led in general pass rate for 2006, July 2007, and Feb. 2008
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 12:31:11 PMfrom what I understand, FSU consistently has the state's highest pass rate on the bar
You evidently misunderstood.
It varies from exam period to exam period, but FSU isn't consistently in the top spot. Actually, except for 2006, they're rarely in the top spot. And FCSL regularly lands ahead of FSU.
http://www.sunethics.com/ba-results.htm
http://www.discourse.net/archives/2008/09/university_of_miami_law_tops_florida_bar_pass.html
please explain...the one link provides history...and FSU led in general pass rate for 2006, July 2007, and Feb. 2008
You said, and I quote:
In reality, it does not, as the links I posted indicate. Pretty self-explanatory, no?
tufsu1
June 16, 2009, 01:53:49 PMnot really...but ok, I'll take back the word "consistently" and replace it with "regularly"....but you implied that they only had the top spot once...and your own reference shows at least three times since 2006.
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 02:26:56 PMBut you didn't say "regularly" you said "consistently".
I wouldn't even call 3 times out of 12 bar exams (2 per year since '05) "regularly", but I guess reasonable minds could differ on that one. In any event, FCSL has done at least that well, which again, was really the whole point here in the first place.
And what exactly are you arguing with this "If I had used different words, then I would have had a point" routine? You said what you said, and I responded to it. If you're admitting that FSU does not consistently score the highest in the state on the bar exam, as you claimed, then obviously I agree with you.
But you can't just backpedal whenever you're proven wrong, conveniently claiming that your own written statement wasn't what you meant, and then declare yourself right based on something you didn't say until your original statement was proven incorrect. By that standard, nobody could ever be wrong about anything, ever. If anyone else tried to pull that B.S., you'd be the first one to call them out on it. WTF?
tufsu1
June 16, 2009, 03:11:49 PMI agree that the wrong word was used and I apologize...all I was doing was questioning the original point that FCSL has done better than FSU (and as stated FIU, Stetson, etc.) over the past few years...the data does not show that.
ChriswUfGator
June 16, 2009, 03:17:48 PMYa, clearly...
Florida International, 81.5% (22 of 27)
Stetson, 80.0% (60 of 75)
Non-Florida law schools, 73.7% (278 of 377)
Nova Southeastern, 72.5% (29 of 40)
AVERAGE OF ALL LAW SCHOOLS, 70.7% (554 of 784)
St. Thomas, 70.4% (19 of 27)
AVERAGE OF FLORIDA LAW SCHOOLS, 67.8% (276 of 407)
Florida Coastal, 66.1% (39 of 59)
Florida State, 65.0% (26 of 40)
Florida, 64.9% (24 of 37)
Miami, 61.1% (22 of 36)
Barry, 54.5% (12 of 22)
Florida A&M, 52.3% (23 of 44)
tufsu1
June 16, 2009, 03:21:49 PMas you said yourself, one exam sitting over a multi-year period does not a "regular" trend make
JaxByDefault
June 16, 2009, 05:00:56 PM<sigh> This thread is not a debate over bar passage rates, law school rankings, etc.
Bar passage rates mean very little. Some schools provide bar prep for many of their students, while at others students are left to fend for themselves and rely only on commercial prep courses for bar study. Bar passage rates are thus influenced by school policy, course selection and requirements, and resource allocation. Most FloCo students stay in FL, thus the school makes a sizable investment in preparing students for the FL bar. It makes less sense for somewhere like UF to invest in bar prep when fewer of their graduates will remain in the state and more will be sitting for exams elsewhere. Also, keep in mind that some schools publish their 1 year bar pass rate (which would be 2 shots), others print their first-time pass rate (1 shot, usually July), and other publish their per-sitting rate (a certain shot, w/ all takers regardless of number of previous attempts). No surprise, law schools tend to harp on their highest stat.
No more FloCo bashing or p***ing contests over law schools. Let's get this thread back on track and stick to the debate over missed opportunities for downtown, please.
I think we can all agree that not landing FloCo downtown was a huge mistake by the city. We all would have benefited from a robust downtown law library, a hoarde of available clerks, more opportunities for professional and academic development among local bar members, and 1500 more bodies in the urban neighborhoods to live, work, play, and spend money. Perhaps then firms wouldn't be fleeing for the suburbs, too.
Springfield Girl
June 16, 2009, 09:33:28 PMI may be way off base here but I could never understand how LaVilla School of The Arts could be located on the outskirts of Downtown while Douglas Anderson School of the Arts is housed in a substandard building and location off Philips Highway. Why would the school board not try to relocate the arts high school downtown? The middle school kids either ride the bus or get picked up by parents who drive in and out of the area as fast as possible. Those creative type, high school kids can drive and would appreciate and frequent many of the downtown businesses and ammenities after school and in the evening after arts functions and shows. I wouldn't want to see a school spread out on a large piece of land but what about a multi story building or better yet reuse a couple of the already empty buildings downtown. They already use the Times Union Center for their big extravaganza each year and maybe they could partner with other venues like the Florida Theater. Just an idea, any thoughts?
mtraininjax
June 17, 2009, 08:52:32 PMGet in line, Peyton is an idiot, he has no legacy and is know more for his inaction, than action. SCAD is not realistic downtown in Jax. No one comes downtown after dark, Savannah has downtown people, restaurants, we have a few restaurants who are not appreciated by the 32223 snobs.