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Map Key:
Green = CSX railroad lines
Yellow = Norfolk Southern railroad lines
Light Blue = Florida East Coast railroad line
Red = Short line railroads
Orange = JTA Bus Rapid Transit routes
Blue = Urban Commuter Rail starter line
White = JAXPORT terminal facilities
Existing rail map
Currently, trains serving JAXPORT's Blount Island and JEA's power plant go through the core of the Northside to access CSX's main rail lines.
Proposed CSX/JAXPORT rail plan
JAXPORT is projected to reach trade volumes similar to present day Savannah, Charleston and Norfolk by 2015. CSX is proposing to spend $40 million from the Orlando commuter rail deal to create a "North Main Street Bypass" to better facilitate growth at JAXPORT.
The CSX bypass will include laying 14 miles of new track on a former railbed that will reroute port and JEA unit coal trains north of the city and the airport.
The majority of CSX traffic will travel north on this section of track, near the interchange of Main Street and State Road 9A. CSX officials anticipate four trains a day will be needed to serve the new JAXPORT shipping terminals.
JTA Bus Rapid Transit Route Map
JTA's Bus Rapid Transit plan includes multiple bus expressway routes that parallel existing rail lines. Metro Jacksonville's stance has always been that the better and more affordable solution to Jacksonville's mass transit problems would be to take advantage of existing rail infrastructure, where possible, as opposed to spending hundreds of millions on parallel bus routes that will destroy existing urban communities.
As predicted by Metro Jacksonville, the S-Line Urban Greenway hasn't done much to stimulate economic development along its boundaries. The inclusion of rail to the S-Line has the potential to bring life back to the Urban Northside.
JTA's BRT proposal fails to address areas in need of economic revitalization. On the other hand, blighted sections of town, such as the Springfield Warehouse District, have been known to experience redevelopment and increase in property values when they are connected with rail based mass transit.
Capacity created for a starter Urban Commuter Rail system
CSX's rail proposals in Jacksonville and Orlando enhance the option of using existing rail lines for urban commuter rail and eliminate the need for more expensive busways in West and Northside Jacksonville. Now it's time for JTA and Jacksonville to take advantage of the opportunity that continues to knock at our door.
Article by Ennis Davis
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Charles Hunter
April 22, 2008, 05:56:10 AMGood News!! Since this is tied to the Orlando Commuter Rail deal, it gives us even more incentive to make sure that proposal does not get off track (yes, I meant that) in the Legislature - where there is opposition to the deal.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 06:54:57 AMIn Central Florida, primarily Lakeland and Tampa. Lakelanders are upset that most of Orlando's freight traffic will be shifted through their downtown, splitting it in half since most streets are at grade crossings and Tampa officials are upset that they are being left out of the deal for commuter rail that could link them with Orlando.
Lunican
April 22, 2008, 08:25:01 AMFull Article:
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042208/met_270742216.shtml
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 10:01:01 AMI don't know if Sen. Dan Webster's bill will pass, but what he's proposing, along with profits from freight operations on commuter rail tracks, would be a solution to JTA's question of finding a dedicated funding source for annual operations & maintainance costs for local commuter rail without having to jack up local resident's taxes.
Anyway, it seems these they are trying to line up allies to get the Orlando commuter rail deal passed. First our port logistics rail solution is tied to the Orlando deal and now they are trying to bring South Florida on board with a solution that helps fund and maintain rail systems statewide.
full article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20080422/NEWS/804220429/1039
JeffreyS
April 22, 2008, 10:02:31 AMWouldn't getting the Orlando deal done help Tampa (and mabey Jacksonville) get their rail online. Is Tampa's feeling if we don't have it they shouldn't have it.
adamh0903
April 22, 2008, 10:02:51 AMIf the proposed line photo is accurate it looks like CSX plans to reuse the rail bed that runs along SR 200 from Yulee to Callahan. This was the old east coast/ seaboard connection (oklaw' correct me if I am wrong) that hasnt been used in probably 25, maybe 30 years. If they plan to use this line, what kind of impact will this have on traffic on US-1 in Callahan. What about the business that have already developed on or near these railbeds?
JeffreyS
April 22, 2008, 10:09:15 AMthelakelander
April 22, 2008, 10:17:03 AMFrom a Google Earth search, the former railbed ROW appears to still be intact. It would allow Nassau to take advantage of the port's expansion as well.
Steve Rieck, executive director of the Nassau County Economic Development Board, said while the details of a new connector rail line in Nassau are still sketchy, rail is critical to the county's industrial development and expansion would help.
"If they do go through with this rail infrastructure improvement, it will make Nassau County more attractive to warehouse and distribution facilities that can take advantage of the new rail to points north," he said.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/042208/met_270742216.shtml
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 10:22:12 AMThe problem with the Orlando deal is that while it brings commuter rail to Orlando, it kills the chance of linking Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando with commuter rail. The reason it kills is because a majority of Central Florida freight rail operations with be relocated through downtown Lakeland, sucking up the needed capacity for commuter rail on that same line (it travels through Downtown Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando), before branching off in Auburndale to head south to the proposed Winter Haven rail hub and Miami.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 10:26:53 AMThe Orlando deal relocates the majority of CSX's rail traffic to the S-Line from Baldwin to Lakeland. When freight gets to downtown Lakeland, it will shift back to the A-Line for 15 miles before heading south in Auburndale to go to South Florida. That 15 mile stretch between Lakeland and Auburndale is a critical link for any rail plan that would involve connecting the Central Florida communities together.
adamh0903
April 22, 2008, 10:44:40 AMThe bed is still there, my customers park on it, some of the bed near US-1 was donated to the Town of Callahan, and is used as the site for the old Train depot.
http://photos.jacksonville.com/mycapture/enlarge.asp?userphoto=0&image=12249457&thispage=1
This picture is looking straight down the rail bed from US-1 in callahan, this picture was taken at the Train Depot.
JeffreyS
April 22, 2008, 11:01:39 AMIf we want commuter rail to link cities such as Tampa, Orlando and Jacksonville we may have to add rail capacity but is commuter rail really needed to connect large metro areas. I mean do people live in Tampa and commute to Orlando.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 11:09:02 AMYes, Yes, Yes. There are a number of people in Central Florida who commute between the metros, especially Lakeland. Lakeland's rapid growth has been fueled by companies choosing to shut down duel locations in Tampa and Orlando to open up new larger single facilities in and around Lakeland. Those employees commute to both metros. When I lived in Winter Haven (15 miles east of Lakeland), my next door neighbors commuted daily to jobs in St. Petersburg and Tampa. When I lived in Lakeland, we would travel to both larger metros (downtown Tampa is 30 minute drive from downtown Lakeland) for a variety of activities. +20,000 of Disney's employees live in the Lakeland MSA. I also seriously considered taking a job in Orlando before relocating to Jax, because it would have allowed me to keep my house down there. If there is a place to start commuter rail in Florida, its that area. Besides, the distance between the two cities is roughly the same length as South Florida's Tri-Rail between Miami and West Palm Beach.
Jason
April 22, 2008, 11:10:45 AMWould taxing car rentals at the airports eleminate any incentive for connecting them to a transit system? Seems like a rail connection would lower the amount of car rentals.
Is that stretch running through downtown Lakeland or is it more suburban? Sounds like an easy fix would be to lay more track along that segment and build a few overpasses. Or simply run a new "bypass" line (right over top of the I-4 emblem) to connect the Auberndale junction with the mainline further north. Not the end of the world.
JeffreyS
April 22, 2008, 11:25:44 AMThe Lakeland problem seems solvable.
Ocklawaha
April 22, 2008, 01:04:05 PMThe map excludes the original Seaboard Route between Fernandina and Cedar Key. In our area the Yulee-Callahan line was used as a branchline until fairly recent memory. The Gross Cut-Off was last to go but it was designed to get the Seaboard traffic to or from North of the border, over to the Callahan-Baldwin and south by-pass for Jacksonville. The passenger trains and Jacksonville or West Coast bound freight came on down along N. Main Street into Springfield Yard, then used the "S" to Union Station or (Beaver Street) WEST JAX. yard. My best guess would be they'll use the older route so they don't mess with the deal with First Coast Railroad. First Coast Runs the Kings Bay-Kingsland-Gross-Yulee-Fernandina Trackage. So a CSX line from Jax Port- Yulee - Callahan wouldn't crimp their operations.
Better still, if State money could come into play would be the pale blue line shown, which is a route more or less available for both the Norfolk Southern AND the CSX to access the port.
Bottom line, to really spring this and make us all happy, the CITY-STATE-SHORTLINE-TRANSIT operators need to buy the track from Jax-Port to North Main and hence South into Springfield, rebuilding the "S" connection.
If we did this, and CSX went ahead with rebuilding the old Fl RR line, we would have universal access to the port by all carriers and CSX would offer a reliever route to everything headed north. Wonder if NS is reading this? Wake up boys!
The old "S" from Springfield - Union Station was once a busy passenger route with some freight traffic as well, just to the North was the old "St. Johns River Terminal Railroad" or the "SOUTHERN" which today is the Norfolk Southern. In this photo (I FINALLY FOUND IT) one can see both routes with one of Seaboards trains headed into town. Note the NS line just to the North. My photo has "Liberty St Florida" on the back of it.
Ocklawaha
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 01:17:45 PMGood question.
Is that stretch running through downtown Lakeland or is it more suburban? Sounds like an easy fix would be to lay more track along that segment and build a few overpasses.[/quote]
1. That stretch runs through the heart of Downtown Lakeland, cutting their core in half. For comparison's sake imagine if Laura Street was filled with shops and restaurants, while Adams was an at grade rail crossing with tons of daily freight traffic splitting downtown into two. The easy answer is adding overpasses, but neither the State, Orlando or CSX is willing to fund them and to construct them would certainly involve taking out lofts, restaurants and shops.
Downtown Lakeland
There is a solution, but someone needs to fund it. This would be to relay the old main line from Wildwood to Auburndale. Unfortunately, the situation Lakeland faces is one that was caused by poor planning on the part of the State and Orlando. All they are doing is shifting the traffic problem 45 miles south to another Central Florida community and asking its taxpayers to pay CSX for it. Unfortunately, Lakeland is a smaller community and most likely does not stand a chance against political big boys like CSX, the State, Orlando and now Jacksonville and possibly South Florida, although their solution makes a ton of sense.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 01:33:25 PMNice find Ock. This is the Springfield warehouse district and the white building in the background appears to be the old Merita Bread plant on Market Street, meaning this image is taking from Liberty, looking west. Here's a few present day images looking at this area from different viewpoints.
Market looking east
Liberty looking east
Liberty, looking NE
The grassy area is where the track with the train in the older photo, once laid.
Lunican
April 22, 2008, 01:56:47 PMJason
April 22, 2008, 02:19:13 PMThe image you posted doesn't seem to show all of the rail lines through that area of the state. This Google Earth image shows the "Auburndale" line continuing north to eventually tie back in with the CSX line further north. Could this line be abandoned or is it owned by a short line? If CSX could get their hands on it they would have a direct shot to the south and would be able to re-rout all of their South Florida to this corridor.
adamh0903
April 22, 2008, 02:29:11 PMThe last trains rolled through Callahan in the early/mid 80's on the old FL RR line. The old timers around here say they called that line, "the peggy". since that time business along the rail bed rented the property from FL RR and then CSX for business parking and other uses, about 8 months ago, most businesses got a letter from CSX about stating CSX no longer owned the property and businesses could no longer lease it. After extensive land and title searches we found out that CSX DOES own the property.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 02:51:04 PMThe image I posted shows today's operational rail lines and the companies that own them. The Wildwood-Auburndale line was pulled up over 20 years ago. Today, its the Gen. Van Fleet Trail.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/gwt/guide/regions/eastcentral/trails/general_james.htm
The Auburndale line currently ends next to a lumberyard just south of Old Dixie Highway. On the Google Earth aerial you posted that would be the "P" in Polk Parkway.
If the Orlando deal is approved, the majority of freight traffic will run East from Downtown Lakeland on the A-Line and head south to the proposed Winter Haven rail hub, near the Minute Main Juice processing plant and Auburndale yard.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 02:58:16 PMSo if CSX does own the property, then this must certainly be the rail line they are talking about relaying. It would be difficult to imagine the spending additional millions on assembling the large amount of ROW needed for a new path.
adamh0903
April 22, 2008, 03:06:39 PMexactly, this is what a few of us was talking about this morning.
JeffreyS
April 22, 2008, 03:16:07 PMIs it any wonder CSX makes a profit even when everybody else struggles. Jacksonville is lucky to have them. I hope they want the commuter rail deal here like they seem to in Orlando.
Jason
April 22, 2008, 03:46:13 PMIf that corridor hasn't been built on yet that may be a viable option for a Lakeland bypass.
It floors me how much of our rail has been ripped up.
thelakelander
April 22, 2008, 04:23:24 PMIts just as rural as it was the day they pulled the tracks up. Its a no brainer, but its also expensive.
Ocklawaha
April 23, 2008, 10:15:28 AMFind in "PURPLE" (what else) some abandoned lines that IF rebuilt, would fix Jacksonville, Lakeland, Tampa and Orlandos railroad problems. You'll recall I posted a connection from Blount Island around the Airport to the CSX about a month or two ago. Some of this is pretty basic, but FDOT has ignored this and allowed these traps to grow beyond management size.
Ocklawaha
adamh0903
April 23, 2008, 10:49:02 AMI live about 100 yards from the old rail bed, so after looking at it last night, I am not sure there is enough room to make a turn north to tie into the existing tracks to waycross. The old Fl RR line only ran south/east. With the exisiting property near the tracks, Im not sure there is room to take freight north.
In these pictures, the blue lines are the exsiting CSX line to waycross the green line was the old FL RR line and the red boxes are exsisting property that is being used near the sight.
thelakelander
April 23, 2008, 10:58:36 AMIt was mentioned that they expected to pay as much as $6 million in ROW costs. Maybe its for a few properties, such as this. A similar situation exists where the port spur meets the existing line paralleling Main Street.
Ocklawaha
April 23, 2008, 11:29:11 AMI wouldn't be too concerned with trains headed to Waycross. As these containers come off the port they won't be in any type of delivery sequence. The trick will be to get them to the nearest yard to break down and make up blocks of cars (trains) for distant points. As the newest and hottest railroad property in town is the Dinsmore Cut-off and the new intermodal yard west of I-295 my guess is THAT is where this stuff is headed. Besides Dinsmore some may trickle down to Baldwin or over to Moncrief. The good thing is CSX is doing something to move them out and away from downtown and the "S". The bad news is we still won't have universal access to our all important port facility. One wonders if CSX would be open to a CSX-NS-CITY-STATE partnership. It would take very little to hang a connection from the Dinsmore Cut-off to the NS mainline and their Simpson Yard intermodal facility (which was also recently expanded).
Ocklawaha
thelakelander
April 23, 2008, 12:11:05 PMContainers will be broken down and blocked at the port's proposed rail intermodal yard.
One of CSX's reasons for doing this (the new line) is to establish a monopoly on rail based future port business. This would go against them agreeing to give universal access to all port facilities.
adamh0903
April 23, 2008, 12:18:25 PMThe picture in Tuesdays edition of the TU, showed a proposed connection sight near Hilliard. I dont believe there was ever a railway from yulee to hilliard, so one would have to be built.
Jason
April 23, 2008, 01:35:28 PMDoes CSX still own those abandoned corridors? If so the costs of new track may not be as much as we think.
thelakelander
April 23, 2008, 01:37:15 PMNo. CSX does not own all of these abandoned corridors. For example, they don't own all the ROW from Wildwood to Auburndale anymore and the link from Leesburg to Orlando has developed into a suburban commercial corridor resembling Southside Blvd.
raheem942
April 24, 2008, 04:08:30 PMwell i give it 2 mounths before this idea dies .....face it....ur beatin a dead horse
Ocklawaha
April 24, 2008, 05:56:56 PMHere's the scoop, most of the miles here are now owned as Right-of-way by the State of Florida. The only congested portion of the "Southside Blvd like" Tavares-Leesburg segment still has some 90% of the right of way intact. In fact within Leesburg, it still had rails in spots until about 10 years ago. This line didn't follow the BLVD. but went into Leesburg, swung south of the Airport and only came up to the Blvd to cross the Canal then followed the wide road past the Tavares Court House where the Florida Central tracks are today.
I've driven it several times and am confident that for the Millions they are pouring into the "deal" they could just cross that canal behind the airport somewhere and make that link. A great deal of the lines in the west and central portion are as Lake said, rural as the day Ponce De Leon hit the beach.
Ocklawaha
adamh0903
April 24, 2008, 06:05:29 PMCSX still owns the entire right of way through callahan. We just went through a long legal process to find that out.
Ocklawaha
April 24, 2008, 08:14:41 PMIf like the TU said they are bent on moving the traffic to Waycross then the statement that some sort of Terminal Intermodal yard will sort the trains is bunk. Waycross has the multi-million dollar "Jacksonville" yard including a hump facility (which won't fly for container or well cars... Thus the little sticker on their sides that reads "DO NOT HUMP") But they could flat switch these in Waycross and bypass the hump (hill). My guess since Lake said there was an image of a line to Hilliard is they'll use 90% of the old FLRR route then just in the edge of Callahan slice NW to meet the mainline pointed toward Hilliard.
Headed to Long Beach, and YES I did ride this line on the Interurban!
The same basic area today!
Meanwhile re-re-re-reading the stuff, the door still seems open for a down the road Jax-Port buyout of the lines from I-295 and Main, southward to Springfield. CSX didn't deny 36 hours to get cars from the island to Moncrief as both the curse and the blessing of railroading is consolidation of the loads. Not enough, and they'll sit until it makes sense to move them. But that blade cuts both ways, for example, consigned to FEC or NS and maybe it will take 45 hours to get downtown! We NEED universal access and we are going to need it sooner not later. If the authority is smart and they go ahead with an intermodal make up facility, they'll own it lock-stock and barrel, and it will be designed to somehow tie into the old Trout river bridge and access for EVERY carrier. Just look what the port of Los Angeles or Long Beach did with the Alameda Corridor! (err uh, a former INTERURBAN railway for the most part).
Ocklawaha