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Jason
July 10, 2007, 08:38:29 AMKudos to DVI for stepping up and saying something. This battle should really stat to get interesting.
zoo
July 10, 2007, 10:37:23 AMYep, DVI sometimes gets flack from folks on this site (me too, sometimes), so I join in the Kudos-giving. Their recommendation is well-researched, addresses the pertinent issues more than adequately -- especially 1. the need to focus on integration and maximization of EXISTING downtown transportation opps, and 2. the actual economic effect on existing and potential businesses downtown -- and is thoughtfully organized.
Well done Terry and team!
Ocklawaha
July 10, 2007, 12:04:03 PMBravo DVI! Finally, a voice of reason within the City of Jacksonville. Let's keep pushing the buttons on JTA to move the BRT system from a one-system-fits-all-failure to a system of connectivity. JTA, Are you hearing this?They used the "T" word, and "potato chip truck-thinks-it's-a-trolley" doesn't start with "T". Let's use the BRT plan as DVI has suggested, consider it on MLK/New Kings, Lem Turner and Arlington Expressway (where a system convertable to LRT would work). Downtown, let's continue to clean-up with Modern Streetcar or Heritage Trolley on Water-Independence-Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Lee-Water, a decent "figure 8" starter system. Have you seen the new Baltimore plan? Check it out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0JB0HEhD_Es&mode=related&search=
Commuter Rail would shine on the old "S" line, North to Fernandina Beach, St. Augustine, and Green Cove Springs. Streetcars would "FIT" Springfield, Downtown, Riverside-Avondale, San Marco and San Jose better then Skyways or Bus Freeways would. If JTA is not listening, it begs the question, "Why are we one of only 2 major Cities with a highway builder trying to play Transit Agency?"
This is a major step in the right direction, paint the City green with electric mass-transit.
Ocklawaha
thelakelander
July 10, 2007, 12:34:05 PMBtw, what's the other major city?
Johnny
July 10, 2007, 12:59:47 PMGood to know DVI opposes it, adding to JTA & the cities opponents for the current BRT plan. Hopefully it helps.
Ocklawaha
July 10, 2007, 03:13:17 PMSplit up JTA? Why? Just go spend some time in the American Road Builders or Highway Builders web-sites and you get a pretty clear image of the conflict's that lay within JTA. I'm sure when the Consolidation spirit swept them up with all of the other City agency's, no one suspected this was like puting a cat in a box with a rat, then try to shake until mixed. Here is a sample of one recent fight in PA. Highway builders are waging a public campaign against the state's funding scheme for mass transit, saying bus and subway riders in the Philadelphia area benefit at the expense of motorists in the rest of the state.
"They're sending your highway taxes to Philadelphia so bus and subway fares there won't have to be increased. But your gas prices keep going up and up while their bus and subway fares stay level. ... Isn't it time they worried about the other Pennsylvania?"
The Web site also features a gas-pump calculator to show how much in federal highway taxes goes to SEPTA per tankful of gas _ although Department of Transportation officials called it and other information on the Web site "inaccurate and unfair."
"To me, the whole thing is kind of a shame," said Allen D. Biehler, Gov. Ed Rendell's transportation secretary, who called APC's executive vice president, Robert Latham, to register his displeasure. "We're trying to solve this transportation funding program for the good of all Pennsylvania."
The campaign takes on Rendell's decision in February to divert $412 million in federal highway funds to stave off fare hikes, service cutbacks and layoffs at 16 transit agencies that serve 65 percent of Pennsylvania's population.
Of the $412 million, about one-fourth comes from the highway allocation for the Philadelphia region. But about $258 million, or almost 63 percent, is headed to SEPTA, according to PennDOT, instead of funding highway projects in rural areas far from the city and its suburbs.
The state receives roughly $1.5 billion federal highway dollars each year, but the APC considers the state to be $1 billion behind on its highway and bridge repairs.
Lake, I haven't found the answer to your question. I just read the fact about a month ago, so if you want, I will dig until I find where I saw that. It might have been a FLDOT or even JTA publication though. Hope this article answers the "why" part of the question.
Ocklawaha
Jason
July 10, 2007, 03:34:12 PMI love your signature Ock!
Ocklawaha
July 10, 2007, 03:39:09 PMSpent yesterday evening on the new Miami-Homestead 11.5 mile BRT line. While cruising alongside on US 1, a 6 to 8 lane highway, I could see the new "Bus Freeway" for its entire route. It is Bogota, all over again, except for a few things. Bogota's stations are mostly in the center of the road, Miami has placed them curbside. Bogota's is jammed with people too poor for automobiles. Miami's SOLE visible "passenger" was sleeping on the bench at one of the stations. You heard right, at 9:00 pm, when all the stores were closing, and the lower income workers going home, an 11.5 mile busway, through the poorest neighborhoods in South Florida, was too dead to bury. I saw only one person in the entire trip. By contrast, the metro-mover and metro-rail stations, were not busy but they each had at least a handful of passengers in the stations. Over on Tri-Rail, the regular commuter train stations were fairly busy places (it should be noted that Tri-Rail goes North and does not serve the area of the new BRT line). One has to wonder what genius in Tallahassee or Miami cooked up the idea of taking up a railroad (FEC) between Miami and Homestead, to build a new bus freeway, so they can build up ridership, then take up the bus freeway, to build a railroad! THAT IS THE PLAN! Don't worry, JTA just wants to build theirs alongside or OVER the railroad... Sheer genius!
Thanks Jason, took me some work to come up with that Trolley avatar, and collect the label warnings signature, since "pencil 101" is about as tech as I get...LOL!
Ocklawaha
Jason
July 10, 2007, 03:47:32 PMI remember passing through Miami heading to the keys for my honeymoon and seeing the construction of the busway. I wondered why they didn't just expand the Tri-Rail system to the south along that right of way. Maybe that is their eventual plan?
Ocklawaha
July 10, 2007, 04:03:22 PMI see it in Busways all over the place, dumb as ducks, it goes like this:
Find a old railroad that goes someplace you could use
Prefer one that hasn't seen a passenger in 50 years
Buy the railroad
Take up the railroad AND grade
Build a completely new grade in it's place
Lay a highway on top
Put fast frequent buses on the highway and call it BRT
Tell the citizens to "Think Rail but ride the Bus"
Tell the citizens we are doing this to build up the ridership
When reaching the magic number (which no-agency has done yet) rip the whole thing down
Take up the Highway AND grade
Build a completely new grade in it's place
Lay a railroad on top
Replace buses with trains...
I just want to know:
this saves us what?
wouldn't logic dictate to try rail service first so maybe the whole bus exercise could be avoided?
Is this more "If we build it they will come" mentality?
Why not tell the citizens to: "Try Rail so we won't need the bus"
Imagine taking the bathroom out of your house, building an outhouse, use that until demand reaches a given point, then go back in to build the bathroom... Don't we all agree that everyone but JTA, FLDOT, and Miami-Dade, already know the bathroom is a superior product?
Ocklawaha
thelakelander
July 10, 2007, 05:16:34 PMTri-Rail doesn't stretch down into that area. It terminates near MIA. Nevertheless, although BRT runs down that stretch, lets not forget that the residents of Miami-Dade recently voted to raise their taxes to aggressively expand the Metrorail heavy rail system around the county, instead of continued highway expansion. The MIC and the current expansion of Metrorail to MIA are a result of that decision.
Ocklawaha
July 10, 2007, 05:44:07 PMHey Lake. True the people of Miami-Dade love their rail system, I just wish we had bold thinkers in rail transit in Jacksonville. Even as late as almost midnight, last night, the metro-mover / metro-rail system still had quite a number of people gathered at the base of their stations. It's sad that the current administration in Washington, is forcing transit agencys to use bad math to disprove LRT and Rail expansion while using even worse numbers for BRT. They even encourage the side by side population and thus ridership of places like Mumbi or Curitiba, with American Cities, then point to these as "proof" BRT will work! Sad that Miami couldn't override this foolishness and just do what Jason suggested and run the Tri-Rail trains on down the former FEC mainline to Homestead. The railroads cross all over themselves to get to the port so a move from CSX to FEC would not have been impossible. Further, they are now planning to move a good deal of the Tri-Rail trains over to the FEC North of the City, as CSX runs on the Seaboard, which entered Miami much later and tends to be some miles West of the center of Action.
Ocklawaha
Steve
July 10, 2007, 08:44:42 PMI agree - one needs to give credit where credit is due. Good letter from DVI.
thelakelander
July 10, 2007, 08:53:46 PMFind a old railroad that goes someplace you could use
Prefer one that hasn't seen a passenger in 50 years
Buy the railroad
Take up the railroad AND grade
Build a completely new grade in it's place
Lay a highway on top
Put fast frequent buses on the highway and call it BRT
Tell the citizens to "Think Rail but ride the Bus"
Tell the citizens we are doing this to build up the ridership
When reaching the magic number (which no-agency has done yet) rip the whole thing down
Take up the Highway AND grade
Build a completely new grade in it's place
Lay a railroad on top
Replace buses with trains...
I just want to know:
this saves us what?
wouldn't logic dictate to try rail service first so maybe the whole bus exercise could be avoided?
Is this more "If we build it they will come" mentality?
Why not tell the citizens to: "Try Rail so we won't need the bus"
Imagine taking the bathroom out of your house, building an outhouse, use that until demand reaches a given point, then go back in to build the bathroom... Don't we all agree that everyone but JTA, FLDOT, and Miami-Dade, already know the bathroom is a superior product?
Ocklawaha
Great way to sum up the "when ridership increases, we can rip it up and convert it into rail" argument. I'm still shocked planners actually have the audacity to make a statement like that in public and think it's some sort of selling point. All I see is more money being wasted by paying for something twice. Just bite the bullet and get it over with by doing it right the first time.